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Author Topic: Looking To Buy a Setup  (Read 2990 times)

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Offline Jerseyguy57

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Looking To Buy a Setup
« on: August 21, 2016, 07:47:16 PM »
Hi, looking to buy a setup and I see the Sony M10 is recommended by most. Question is, what kind of mics would you suggest for it and do you always need a battery box for the mics?

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 11:10:02 PM »
Battery box?: Yes, you'll want one, because the plug-in power isn't enough to drive most mics sufficiently under most circumstances.

Which mics?: Maybe start by saying what kind of music and venues you'd mostly be recording, and what your budget is, and if you'll be recording with a stand or need smaller stealthy mics, and then at least you can get it narrowed down to only a million different opinions.

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2016, 11:27:20 PM »
I mainly go to small venues, small theaters, clubs etc. I've been very fortunate to have very good seats for most of them. I'd say within the first 8 rows center. So I would be looking for small stealthy mics.

My budget isn't a real lot, maybe a few hundred. I want to try to not have a lot of stuff to carry around if possible. I do know that some mics will run off the recorder and don't require a battery box.

Offline trustthex

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2016, 01:46:04 AM »
Did not reply on the thread @ TTD; glad you made it over here.  Trust us - you need a battery box; there's probably a boatload of overloaded/distorted recordings due to improper powering of mics (I know I've made a few).

Personally, I would recommend you look into either SP-CMC-2s (AT831 based) or SP-CMC-4 (AT853 based) microphone systems.  You can buy new from www.soundprofessionals.com or find something used in the yardsale. 


Welcome & good luck!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 11:54:43 AM by trustthex »
Current Foolishness-
AT853c > 3-wire BB > LS10
AT853c > Tinybox > R-09

Other gear in my bag-
SP-CMC-1 (AT 829), ECM-717, Sharp MD-MS702
2x Teac ME-50 (C), AT ATR6250, SP-SPSB-2

Team TEXAS, Naiant, Jazz, Vinyl, moe.

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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2016, 07:58:00 AM »
I'd second the SP-CMC-4U/AT853 recommendation, and the Church Audio CA-11/CA-14s are good as well, though see the long thread here about Church's fulfillment issues.

One decision you're going to need to make is cardioids vs. omnis. Cards are more directional and pick up less crowd noise and room echo; omnis provide a better sense of space but the music may seem more distant, depending on the venue.

Offline fandelive

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2016, 09:00:11 AM »
AT853 will be great for cardioids, as long as you get them with the low-sens mod. Otherwise, they won't handle high SPLs.

For omnis you could also consider a pair of OKM II rock/studio which are Sennheiser based mics.

Try to listen to some samples of shows made with each mic and pick the one you think sound the best to your ears.

You also might want to mount them as high as possible to get better clarity, so you should consider buying a hat too.

Mics : Sony ECM-717, SP-BMC-12, MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod), 2x DPA4060, 2x DPA4061
Battery box : SP-SPSB-6524 w/bass roll-off filter, MM-CBM-1
Preamp : Church Audio CA-9100
Recorders : Sony MZR-700PC, Edirol R-09HR, Tascam DR-2d

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2016, 10:20:58 AM »
$500 is probably the bare minimum, for a rig.  You'll drop $200 for a recorder, then another $75 on a battery box, and that leaves you about $200 for mikes.  You'll be at the extreme low end of cost and quality. 
Regards,

Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline perks

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2016, 10:28:14 AM »
AT853 will be great for cardioids, as long as you get them with the low-sens mod. Otherwise, they won't handle high SPLs.



This is not true. Just power them with a 3-wire BB.
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H)
Preamps/converter: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), Grace Lunatec V2, Sound Devices MP-2, DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Korg MR-1, Edirol R-05, Sony M10

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2016, 10:40:56 AM »
$500 is probably the bare minimum, for a rig.  You'll drop $200 for a recorder, then another $75 on a battery box, and that leaves you about $200 for mikes.  You'll be at the extreme low end of cost and quality.
Not to discourage anybody new who wishes to join the game, but this is about the bottom in terms of costs to enter the hobby. Even with good shopping skills and buying a deck used, you're still looking at only $250ish for mics.
Jerseyguy57- Welcome to you!  :cheers:   (it is not as expensive a hobby as say, yachting, but it can get expensive if you want it to be!)
Think about it this way- the most important piece of the chain is microphones. It is similar to back when turntables were part of EVERY sound system, the cartridge/needle was (is?) most crucial. When it was actual tapes being used, the Tape deck's heads/transport were the crucial part. For live recording, it is the mics. (It is certainly true that one does not need "expensive mics" to make good recordings-location is always key as well)

I haven't used them, but the rec's above for SP or CA products are probably right on and these can be found used at good prices. Also don't forget another small manufacturer onboard here, naiant audio. Many of his mic's can be had for ~$200-300/pair  (X-R. X-X, series depending on which deck you choose.)

read a bunch of mic setup threads and keep your eyes on the YS- and let us know what you choose and/or ask questions.
Also, as far as mic choices go, once you've decided on one or two types/brands check recordings made with those mics out on the LMA or bt.etree or whichever tracker is your choice and listen carefully to figure out what results you might have.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 10:43:28 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2016, 11:10:56 AM »
Wow, thanks for all the info. :headphones: I want to try to keep it as minimal as possible with regards to carrying equipment on me. If I can get away without a BB that would be great.

As for putting them up high, I wear glasses and have been thinking about using Croaker as an option.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 11:29:30 AM by Jerseyguy57 »

Online goodcooker

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2016, 11:49:46 AM »
Wow, thanks for all the info. :headphones: I want to try to keep it as minimal as possible with regards to carrying equipment on me. If I can get away without a BB that would be great.

As for putting them up high, I wear glasses and have been thinking about using Croaker as an option.

I don't know why new people insist on fighting the need to use a battery box to properly power your mics. You will need a batt box and you will have to use it to get good recordings if your mics require more than ~3V PIP.

I once made a good recording with a pair of DPA 4061 running off the PIP of a Marantz 620 (which is ~5V). Once.
MK41 > PFA > Aerco MP2/RAD MS2 > DR60d/DR2d
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Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2016, 12:59:42 PM »
Not resistant, just don't want to carry a lot of gear and have my pockets bulging like a chipmunks cheeks.

Offline angelo sixo

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 01:10:56 PM »
i just bought a zoom h5 ( I know they get beat up on this forum but i like it better than the H10) 229. i bought 2 low end AKG mics for 80 a piece (P170's)  a stand 45 bucks, xlr cables 60 bucks  a couple windscreens (not a must) and a bag 30 so im right around 500 BARE BONES i recorded with it this weekend and it sounds pretty good getting ready to track and edit tonight to  find out fo sho
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Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2016, 01:15:46 PM »
Not resistant, just don't want to carry a lot of gear and have my pockets bulging like a chipmunks cheeks.

If it is rock you'll need the BB. 

YMMV but back in the day when the smallest cassette recorder (not including cassettes, full size mics and cables, maybe a power source/batteries, etc.) was bigger than everything you need today it's all a complete walk in the park now.  A BB is not going to make any difference in the overall scheme of what you carry. 

Also Sony M-10 is discontinued.  There may be a few left but buy that immediately... 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2016, 01:17:59 PM by bombdiggity »
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline nulldogmas

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2016, 03:05:40 PM »
Yeah, the M10 is pretty compact, as are the smaller battery boxes. It's easy to stick the recorder in one pocket and the battery box in another. A small price to pay for recordings that are *so much* better.

And yes, buy an M10 ASAP — just saw that B&H is sold out now, eep. I may have to get a backup backup one myself...

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2016, 10:51:33 PM »
I'd second the SP-CMC-4U/AT853 recommendation, and the Church Audio CA-11/CA-14s are good as well, though see the long thread here about Church's fulfillment issues.

One decision you're going to need to make is cardioids vs. omnis. Cards are more directional and pick up less crowd noise and room echo; omnis provide a better sense of space but the music may seem more distant, depending on the venue.

I see sound professionals sells a variety of BB. Any certain one ? I assume one with bass roll off.

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2016, 10:38:45 AM »
Not resistant, just don't want to carry a lot of gear and have my pockets bulging like a chipmunks cheeks.

This small enough?  http://www.church-audio.com/viewitem.php?productid=18
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
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Mics: AKG 460 (ck61 & ck63) | Studio Projects C4 (cards & omni's) | CA-14 cards | SP-SPSM-9
Recorders: Tascam DR-70d  |  Tascam DR-60d  |  Tascam DR-2D
Preamp: CA Ugly
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Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2016, 11:19:14 AM »
Lol that is small. I've been researching BB's, they are quite small. Is bass roll off a necessity? I've been to a few shows recently where the bass was a little heavy in the mix.

Offline trustthex

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2016, 11:46:50 AM »
You will get mixed answers on your last question.  My batt boxes have no rolloff - I do any sound editing/equalization after the show at the same time I adjust levels, trim the file, etc.
Current Foolishness-
AT853c > 3-wire BB > LS10
AT853c > Tinybox > R-09

Other gear in my bag-
SP-CMC-1 (AT 829), ECM-717, Sharp MD-MS702
2x Teac ME-50 (C), AT ATR6250, SP-SPSB-2

Team TEXAS, Naiant, Jazz, Vinyl, moe.

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If you have any Brave Combo that needs transferred/uploaded, etc... PM me.

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2016, 01:24:11 PM »
I would guess then you could make adjustments on the Sony M10 then.

Online Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2016, 02:08:03 PM »
I would guess then you could make adjustments on the Sony M10 then.

I've never had an issue with bass that I couldn't fix in post. I do record electronic bands on occasion too.

Pros of fixing in post is you can play with the mix until you like what you have. With any sort of bass roll off, that bass is GONE FOREVER. You could BOOST in post, but it's always better to take away than add.
-24      -12              -6             0       OVER
||||||||||||||||||||||||||| []  
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| []

||| MICS:  Beyer CK930 ~ Nevaton MCE400 ~ Countryman B3 |||
||| CABLES: Kind Kables |||
||| PREAMPS: Naiant Tinybox | Naiant Littlebox | Naiant IPA | Church BB |||
||| DECKS: Sound Devices MixPre-6 | Sony M10 |||
||| PLAYBACK: Outlaw Audio RR2150 > Epos ELS8 |||
||| PHOTO: Sony a6000 | Sony 16-50 | Sony 55-210 | Rokinon 14mm | Rokinon 8mm |||
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Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2016, 02:42:00 PM »
Thanks for the ips. I'm more than likely going to pick up a Sony M10. Mic advice besides the above? I go mostly to jazz, blues and some rock in small theaters.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2016, 04:03:38 PM »
Lol that is small. I've been researching BB's, they are quite small. Is bass roll off a necessity? I've been to a few shows recently where the bass was a little heavy in the mix.

With SP mics or really anything of tiny size you do not need the bass roll off in the battery box (at all) and will probably not need to deal with that much if at all in your editing process (post).  DPA's are really the only small mic that has a lot of bass (or start to get muddy) but those way out of your price range and likely require a pre-amp rather than simple bb. 

As mentioned above a little eq or filter or whatever adjustment later when you can hear the effect is a more reliable approach than leaving something behind when you can't hear the effect.  The SP's and most other small mics tend to lean bright sounding so bass is not an issue.  They filter that on their own.  I use SP CMC-25's if I have to for a specific gig so I'm not complaining, just observing... 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline willndmb

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2016, 10:37:19 PM »
I agree with needing a battery box and also agree at853 are good starter mics that can cover different situations.
What I also feel is needed, based on the fact that his gear is recommended in the thread, is fair warning on church audio and his shipping issues. Yes he makes cheap quality gear bit research the potential wait times before jumping in on them.
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2016, 07:53:08 AM »
Thanks all for the info. Lot to think about before buying. I think the Sony M10 is the recorder I want. Church lists 3-4 weeks for mics. I do like their option for the 11's inside the croakie. Very stealthy to me.

Offline Sloan Simpson

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2016, 08:16:51 AM »
Thanks all for the info. Lot to think about before buying. I think the Sony M10 is the recorder I want. Church lists 3-4 weeks for mics. I do like their option for the 11's inside the croakie. Very stealthy to me.

I would expect triple that lead time at a minimum. Church has had issues with this for quite some time.
Neumann KM-184> Tascam DR-680

Offline swordfish

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2016, 11:50:34 AM »
Thanks all for the info. Lot to think about before buying. I think the Sony M10 is the recorder I want. Church lists 3-4 weeks for mics. I do like their option for the 11's inside the croakie. Very stealthy to me.

IMO the SP CMC 8 inside the croakie are a lot smaller, in addition I would buy them with the 4.7 mod, or even better buy those used,

I bought a used white pair with the mod from darktrain a while ago and use a black croakie anda church BB7clip....not much to carry....
I know what I am talking about since also owned a pair C11 with the Church croakie

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2016, 03:18:41 PM »
4.7 mod?

Online goodcooker

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2016, 04:42:29 PM »
The 4.7 mod adds a 4.7K resistor between two of the leads to lower the sensitivity of the mic making it usable for louder sources.

You can put the resistor in the connector or at the mic capsule. SP offers it as an option on most of their miniature mics. I think they call it the Low Sens mod. A few people here on the forum used to do it as an aftermarket modification.
MK41 > PFA > Aerco MP2/RAD MS2 > DR60d/DR2d
MBHO KA300 > Naiant PFA > SD MixPre6 (currently under construction)

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2016, 08:17:05 PM »
Thanks for the info. Time to go shopping.  ;D

Offline nassau73

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2016, 02:56:17 PM »
You might want to read through this thread about croakies:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=171985.msg2130170#msg2130170

As I posted in that topic:
I followed these instructions from Sound Pros to work with my white AT-933's (essentially the SP-CMC-8 mics). You need the Suiters model of Croakies:

https://www.soundprofessionals.com/instructions/SP%20EMC%203.doc

I have wire frame glasses and do not have the thick eyeglass arms as the picture that was posted in the croakie thread  so for me there is plenty of room to thread the mics. I found that once the mics are threaded, the AT933's are so small that they can slide back out very easily so I took a small amount of electrical tape and simply wrapped it around the ends of the croakies where the mic wires come out at the back. It also helps keep the croakie ends from fraying where you cut the end off.

You can get the suiters model of croakies pretty inexpensively through Amazon if you can't find a local dealer.

Offline Jerseyguy57

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2016, 11:47:50 PM »
How is this battery box for power? PART#: SP-SPSB-10 - Sound Professionals - Micro-mini microphone power supply with mini 12vdc battery - various cable choices available. Made in USA. - Item #14834

Offline aaronji

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2016, 04:03:05 PM »
^ Personally, I would opt for one that takes a standard 9V battery. Just easier to find a replacement battery in a pinch and you can use a rechargeable with many of them...

Offline ~Jon Stoppable

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2016, 04:29:01 PM »
You can get an A23 battery in every drug store, just about every grocery store, many hardware stores, Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Target, probably even some C-stores although they will cost too much there.  They are extremely easy to find.

Offline aaronji

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2016, 03:40:06 AM »
^ I don't have any skin in the game, just my personal preference.  I can't get an A23 at the train stations I travel through, which is pretty much my definition of "in a pinch".  Plus, the 9V SP boxes get ten times the battery life of their 12V BBs...

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2016, 09:28:18 AM »
^^^^^^^^^^
Funny aaronji, I read Jon's comment and thought, yes he is correct in most USA cities about convenience stores or pharmacies. Which due to rampant unthinking real estate expansion it is a fact that many communities in the USA have two pharmacies at almost every major intersection!
In the EU, where train travel is more common and I can't speak to the amount of pharmacies on each corner, but am willing to bet there aren't as many, I can see where the 9Volt would be more ideal.
I can buy A23's or 9V's equally as easy here in the great state of NY.     8)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Looking To Buy a Setup
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2016, 03:48:56 PM »
^ I don't have any skin in the game, just my personal preference.  I can't get an A23 at the train stations I travel through, which is pretty much my definition of "in a pinch".  Plus, the 9V SP boxes get ten times the battery life of their 12V BBs...

Like aaronji, I also don't have any skin in the game, but aren't there some mini-mics that will get fried by 12 volts direct from the battery box?  If so then 9v seems like the safer bet to me. 

 

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