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Author Topic: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today  (Read 1470 times)

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Offline CorFit Chris

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AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« on: December 15, 2016, 11:35:57 AM »
AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS for small to mid-sized venues and bars and summer festivals?  Will likely be paired with another set of SD cards.  I should say that several rooms I record are boomy.
Thanks
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 12:26:04 PM by CorFit Chris »
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Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2016, 12:16:21 PM »
I prefer the XLS personally, but I use them for studio stuff.
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Offline kindms

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2016, 02:08:29 PM »
AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS for small to mid-sized venues and bars and summer festivals?  Will likely be paired with another set of SD cards.  I should say that several rooms I record are boomy.
Thanks

I own the XLS/ST (stereo matched pair)  and my understanding is the XLII has a mid range bump where the XLS is flatter. Having said this LDs in boomy situations are not going to help. in fact they will give you even more low end especially the 414s. I love my 414s and they can make some great recordings. I think they shine in M/S and blumlein (which also has a bit of a natural roll off effect to some extent)
AKG414 XLS/ST> TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2
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Offline BonoBeats

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2016, 02:09:58 PM »
The XL-II has a considerably higher bump between 2 - 10kHz. Similar low end response.

http://cdn.recordinghacks.com/images//graphs/akg/C414B_frequency_comparison.png
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 02:12:03 PM by BonoBeats »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2016, 02:18:40 PM »
Bono Beats and kindms have solid info reagrding the HF bump in the 414XLII. For an in depth discussion from people who use these mics often, here:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/788981-akg-c414-xls-xlii.html

I am kindms running buddy and will second his opini0n of low end boominess being more as opposed to less highlighted with the 414's (LD's generally). While this can be controlled for indoor situations and may be preferred for outdoor situations, you should know how kindms characterizes them:
He says the 414's (LD) are smooth and buttery tonal wise, while our 460's (SD) with ck22 have more attack. Seems he prefers the attack tone as opposed to the buttery one. But of course, it is always nice to have differing tonalities in your microphone toolbox!
music IS love

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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2016, 02:23:09 PM »
The XL-II has a considerably higher bump between 2 - 10kHz. Similar low end response.

http://cdn.recordinghacks.com/images//graphs/akg/C414B_frequency_comparison.png

So, how will this "bump" translate to my recordings?  I don't fully understand the frequency graphs.  I am interested in clarity, and favor brightness over more "dull" flavor.  I may also be running them through a preamp in the near future (SD UsbPre 2, or Mini me).
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
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Offline kindms

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2016, 03:02:11 PM »
The XL-II has a considerably higher bump between 2 - 10kHz. Similar low end response.

http://cdn.recordinghacks.com/images//graphs/akg/C414B_frequency_comparison.png

So, how will this "bump" translate to my recordings?  I don't fully understand the frequency graphs.  I am interested in clarity, and favor brightness over more "dull" flavor.  I may also be running them through a preamp in the near future (SD UsbPre 2, or Mini me).

Generally the XLS is what you would want for what we do. My understanding is the XLII is more associated with Vocal microphones. The XLS is a more true frequency response where the XLII has the bump associated with a vocal mic

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/akg-c414b-xls-xlii

The link above has a nice explanation on the differences and he says they are subtle.
AKG414 XLS/ST> TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2016, 03:05:14 PM »
Most of the Gearslutz people prefer the XLS as one claim is that since the XLII is basically a vocal mic (think vocal booth in a studio) you won't get as even results with a pair of them as with a pair of XLS'.
I've no experience with the XLII, but would have to say that since most here and on gearslutz would desire a flat freq response for a stereo pair, my rec would be the XLS'.
music IS love

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Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2016, 03:23:19 PM »
Thanks for all the timely and helpful info!  I guess the XLS is a safer bet and I can add any "brightness" i desire in post.
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2016, 04:39:19 PM »
I ran a pair of XLSs for 3 years in front of a V3 and still found them rather bass heavy
it got to the point where I ran the 40hZ cut almost all the time so I went with 460s because I preferred the bass response of them better
I did like running Blumlein (fig8) and also the hyper card settings, but they are less in the bass response area to begin with
if you are set on them, go ahead and try them out, having multiple patterns can be fun to play with, if you have another pair to run with them   

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2016, 06:53:20 AM »
Exactly! Grab the XLS, NOT the XLII/TLII. IMO they're WAY too bright, and everytime I've heard an XLII/TLII tape, Ive wished it had way more lowend! Just harsh. As always, YMMV! But I say grab the flatter XLS and be done with it 8) Enjoy those 5 patterns, especially the hypers & fig8 :) I typically don't care for SD's when run XY, but I've heard some killer XLS/Hypers/XY tapes from my buddy Jesse D. Scott 8) Its better than SD's because of the larger diaphram of the LD's! They shine in hypers IMO, but the subcards/omnis/cards/fig8 kick ass too! Really, you can't go wrong with a 414 XLS, as long as you don't mid the extra weight and dealing with bigger stuff!

I DO recommend getting these Rycote Invision shocks ;) They'll easily last you a lifetime of taping!

Rycote Invision USM 8)
http://rycote.com/microphone-windshield-shock-mount/invision-studio/
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Offline dactylus

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2016, 04:53:42 AM »

I DO recommend getting these Rycote Invision shocks ;) They'll easily last you a lifetime of taping!

Rycote Invision USM 8)
http://rycote.com/microphone-windshield-shock-mount/invision-studio/

I second Bean's suggestion on the Rycote Invision shocks for the 414's!
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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2016, 09:46:57 AM »
Don't forget to update us as to what you went with.!     :headphones:
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG461/CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 06:17:27 PM »
Don't forget to update us as to what you went with.!     :headphones:

I'm going back to the drawing board.  I already have a pair of Rode NTG3's on the way and my primary interest in the LD mics was for on-stage opportunities.  Through this inquiry, I have discovered the possibility of the much less expensive Studio Projects LSD2 and Avantone CK-40.  Both of which may be all that is necessary for on stage while I still pulling SD cards from the soundboard area.  It has occurred to me that the 414's are probably overkill.  Going this route allows me leftover $ to buy a pair of DPA 4061 omni's for all my outdoor recording.  Then I'll save up for a year and buy and hyper/supercard active setup, either the Schoeps mk41, DPA 4018, or Milab VM-44 link.

This process has fried my brain and I am experiencing microphone hypertension.  I'll report back shortly after I have test driven some options.  Thanks god for 30-day trial periods!
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 04:35:15 AM »
Don't forget to update us as to what you went with.!     :headphones:

  Then I'll save up for a year and buy and hyper/supercard active setup, either the Schoeps mk41, DPA 4018, or Milab VM-44 link.


Don't forget the excellent sounding Microtech Gefell M21 Hypercards when looking at the hyper/supercard active setups.  I would highly recommend the Gefell M21's, as would others here on TS.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=180374.0

 :guitarist:
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 04:47:21 AM by dactylus »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2016, 11:09:06 AM »
Through this inquiry, I have discovered the possibility of the much less expensive Studio Projects LSD2 and Avantone CK-40.  Both of which may be all that is necessary for on stage while I still pulling SD cards from the soundboard area.  It has occurred to me that the 414's are probably overkill. 

Those can work well on-stage.  I will say that as an owner of a similar LD stereo mic (Peluso P-Stereo) as well as LD multipattern mics similar to the 414's (ADK TL), I find individual microphones are preferable because they provide far more setup and use flexibility.  I can run them coincident just like the stereo mic, but usually ended up near spacing them on stage.  I keep the LD stereo Peluso on hand these days because it is my best vocal / close acoustic guitar mic for home recording stuff, with a tone color better suited for that application. The flat and cleaner "less pre-seasoned" sounding TLs I keep on hand for on-stage recording of live music.  I don't use either from further back in the room or outdoors anymore, where I'm pretty much exclusively using Gefell M21 or DPA 4098 hypers in combination with DPA 4061 or 4060 omnis these days, if occasionally something else.

Quote
Going this route allows me leftover $ to buy a pair of DPA 4061 omni's for all my outdoor recording.  Then I'll save up for a year and buy and hyper/supercard active setup, either the Schoeps mk41, DPA 4018, or Milab VM-44 link.

It's no secret I love the DPA 406x, finding them an excellent complement to hypers or cards outdoors.  They can be very useful onstage for jazz as well.

Hope this doesn't further aggravate your hypercaridoid hypertension!
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 02:27:50 AM »
Through this inquiry, I have discovered the possibility of the much less expensive Studio Projects LSD2 and Avantone CK-40.  Both of which may be all that is necessary for on stage while I still pulling SD cards from the soundboard area.  It has occurred to me that the 414's are probably overkill. 

Those can work well on-stage.  I will say that as an owner of a similar LD stereo mic (Peluso P-Stereo) as well as LD multipattern mics similar to the 414's (ADK TL), I find individual microphones are preferable because they provide far more setup and use flexibility.  I can run them coincident just like the stereo mic, but usually ended up near spacing them on stage.  I keep the LD stereo Peluso on hand these days because it is my best vocal / close acoustic guitar mic for home recording stuff, with a tone color better suited for that application. The flat and cleaner "less pre-seasoned" sounding TLs I keep on hand for on-stage recording of live music.  I don't use either from further back in the room or outdoors anymore, where I'm pretty much exclusively using Gefell M21 or DPA 4098 hypers in combination with DPA 4061 or 4060 omnis these days, if occasionally something else.

Quote
Going this route allows me leftover $ to buy a pair of DPA 4061 omni's for all my outdoor recording.  Then I'll save up for a year and buy and hyper/supercard active setup, either the Schoeps mk41, DPA 4018, or Milab VM-44 link.

It's no secret I love the DPA 406x, finding them an excellent complement to hypers or cards outdoors.  They can be very useful onstage for jazz as well.

Hope this doesn't further aggravate your hypercaridoid hypertension!

Ok, so do you think the DPA 4098 hypers are on par with the Gefell m21/Milab VM-44 link/Schoeps mk41?  I haven't heard them, but they are small, more affordable, and sounds like you think pair nicely with the dpa 406x's I want to get for outdoor recording (currently using SP C4' omni's split 3').  I ultimately want a good, affordable active or mini hypercard to pair with my AKG 461 and what ever omni I choose to use.
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/orithris
Mics: AKG 460 (ck61 & ck63) | Studio Projects C4 (cards & omni's) | CA-14 cards | SP-SPSM-9
Recorders: Tascam DR-680mkii  |  Tascam DR-60  |  Tascam DR-2D
Preamp: CA Ugly
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 10:24:35 AM »
Ok, so do you think the DPA 4098 hypers are on par with the Gefell m21/Milab VM-44 link/Schoeps mk41?  I haven't heard them, but they are small, more affordable, and sounds like you think pair nicely with the dpa 406x's I want to get for outdoor recording (currently using SP C4' omni's split 3').  I ultimately want a good, affordable active or mini hypercard to pair with my AKG 461 and what ever omni I choose to use.

No I don't. I hesitate to recommend DPA 4098 for most tapers, even though for me they have provided an optimal solution. Let me explain that a bit-

Used on their own as a stereo pair, my Gefell M21s (and M94 cards) produce raw recordings which sound significantly better to me than the DPA 4098.  The low frequency pattern-inherent rolloff of the 4098 is greater (less bass), they seem slightly less smooth through the mids and highs, and the Geffs seem to portray a greater sense of depth and detail.  The Geffs just have a sort of high-end mic magic ju ju to them.  Also, the form factor of the 4098 is odd and quite unlike typical mics, which is also true of the DPA 406x, but even more so with the 4098 due to it's integral goose-neck and miniature interference tube.  Now I've found I can EQ a 4098 pair recording to be much closer to a M21 pair recording, compensating for the low frequency rolloff and greater brightness of the 4098 to a great degree, and doing so levels the playing considerably if not quite gaining the same smoothness, depth, and magic ju ju qualities (remember, M21 is my favorite "reference" super/hyper), but I recognize that most tapers don't want to have to EQ their recordings.

When used not as a typical stereo pair but rather as part of my 6-channel surround/stereo rig, those differences become minimal and sufficiently inconsequential such that I've been very pleased to switch out the M21s and M94s and move to using the 4098s based on size, minimal weight aloft, low-voltage powering of all mics in the rig, far greater resistance to moisture/weather concerns, and cost.  In this rig the microphone arrangement with a combination of 4 supercards pointing forward, back, and to either side, effectively covers for the less perfect polar pattern control, and the low end roll-off of the 4098 may actually be a desirable feature, allowing the wide-spaced 4061 omni pair to take over the low-frequency stuff cleanly.

[Edit- would a near-spaced or coincident pair of 4098 in combination with a wide-spaced pair of 406x omnis work equally well?  The honest answer is I don't know as I don't use them that way.  I suspect it could work quite nicely.  But I would recommend using them along with omnis in any case.]


So it's not that I don't love the 4098. I do, as it has been perfect for my application.  It's just that it's 1) not a typical mic and 2) not in the same quality category as Gefell M21 and Schoeps MK41.  I'm not as intimately familiar with the VM-44 supercards so I can't credibly compare the 4098 with them.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 10:29:09 AM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 11:47:19 AM »
Ok, thanks for that detailed explanation.  I feel pretty sure that the spa 4098's combined with my AKG 461's and spaced dpa 406x's would be great for my outdoor recordings, but not sure about the indoor stuff. 

The dpa 406x's are coming at some point.  What would be considerations for choosing one vs the other (4060 vs 4061)?

Thoughts on the dpa 4098 paired with AKG 461 for small to mid-sized venues?
LMA: https://archive.org/details/@corfit
SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/orithris
Mics: AKG 460 (ck61 & ck63) | Studio Projects C4 (cards & omni's) | CA-14 cards | SP-SPSM-9
Recorders: Tascam DR-680mkii  |  Tascam DR-60  |  Tascam DR-2D
Preamp: CA Ugly
Camera: GoPro Hero 4 Silver

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2016, 01:21:58 PM »
If you are recording amplified stuff mostly, go with the 4061s which have a lower sensitivity and won't tend to overload downstream gear at high levels. If you are recording stuff in really quiet rooms, like classical string quartet stuff with super silent audiences, or studio stuff, then the 4060 has a slightly lower noise floor.  But most of the time the 4061's self noise will be lower than the acoustic noise floor of live music environments, and a safer all-round bet.

I've not used AKG 461 myself, but many others around here have.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations > virtual teleportation time-machine experience

"Narrow or widely spaced microphone configurations are preferred. It is well-known experience that pure coincidence microphone concepts are not able to produce a satisfying natural spatial impression, due to the lack of adequate interchannel temporal relations (time-of-arrival, phase, correlation)" -Günther Theile
"The mix of the Double M/S signals with a large A/B configuration of omnis results in the spacious sound that is often desired. This option also provides decorrelated low-frequency signals." -Helmut Wittek

Offline dactylus

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Re: AKG 414XLII or AKG 414XLS? Need to order today
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2016, 11:31:04 AM »


Another plug for the Gefell M21's.  My recording.  No EQ.  Check it out:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=587129

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June 11, 2016
Blue Ox Music Festival
Whispering Pines Campground
Eau Claire, Wisconsin


Source: Microtech Gefell m210 > Darktrain Bloodline Cable > AETA 4MinX @ 24/48
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Movo WS80 Furred Windscreen 6cm
Darktrain Interconnects
hot licks > microphones > recorder



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