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Author Topic: Mac drag-and-drop - where's the DAE?  (Read 5594 times)

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Offline greenone

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Mac drag-and-drop - where's the DAE?
« on: September 01, 2003, 11:58:26 PM »
Ok...I can't believe I didn't notice this before, and it seems too good to be true, but...when I put an audio CD into my machine, the tracks show up on the disc as individual AIFFs. So for shits and giggles, I dragged one of the tracks to my HD, changed the name, dragged another one, and ran md5sum on it. They came up identical. :o

Now, I know you can't just do this with discs on a PC because .cda's aren't real files, but the AIFFs I dragged off appear to be quite real (and play just fine) in every program I open them in (QuickTime, Sound Studio, SoundApp, MaltX) except SoundEdit 16, which gets noise. If I open in Sound Studio, hit "Save As..." and THEN open in SoundEdit, it's fine. The files are the right size, and if I do the "Save As...", shntool lets me do whatever I want with them (it gives me a "shnlen: warning: file '1 Audio Track.aiff' is not handled by any of the builtin format modules" if I don't "Save As" first).

Soooo...what the hell is going on here? Where's the DAE? How are these files treated like any other file burned to a data disc? And most importantly, is this reliable? ???

--Dave
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Offline wbrisette

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Re:Mac drag-and-drop - where's the DAE?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2003, 10:59:04 AM »
What's happening is QuickTime is doing the conversion for you. This means you will at some point end up with files that are different because QuickTime isn't perfect (although it is a LOT better every version).

Now, here is some great details on what the hell goes on with a red book audio CD. This comes from Adaptec.

About Digital Audio Extraction

------------------------------

by Bob Starrett

http://www.cdpage.com

Accurately copying a Red Book (audio) track from an audio compact disc

to hard disk or another CD is a continuing challenge, but it has

recently become less difficult due to advances in hardware and software

technology.

Audio tracks are not like regular computer data files; they are made up

made up of data that is meant to stream, and this stream contains more

than music. The stream itself is not simple; it is interleaved, meaning

that portions of a song that naturally follow each other when playing

the song do not follow each other in the physical layout of the disc

itself. This is part of the disc's error correction, used to ensure that

errors (caused by dust and scratches, for example) do not cause audible

errors when the disc is played.

(For more details on error correction, see our earlier article on

"Compact Disc Errors," linked from

http://listserv.adaptec.com/SCRIPTS/WA-ADAPTEC.EXE?A1=ind00&L=wincdr )

Digital Audio Extraction, or DAE, is sometimes, perhaps unfortunately,

called "ripping". Ripping involves moving the contents of an audio

track on a CD to a hard drive or other storage device, by reading the

track from the CD and creating a file that can then be manipulated in

various ways. A number of file formats can be used, including AIFF on

the Macintosh and the WAV format under Windows.

Why is it sometimes difficult to get good-quality audio extracted from a

disc? And why is the process so slow in many cases? This takes a little

understanding of how the data on an audio disc is organized.

An audio disc consists of frames, each of which contains 24 bytes of

user data, synchronization, error correction, and control and display

bits. The audio CD's data is not arranged on the disc in distinct

physical units. The data in one frame is interleaved with the data in

other frames. This prevents a scratch or other defect in or on the disc

from destroying a frame beyond the ability of the reader to correct the

data. A scratch will destroy a little bit of many frames, rather than a

whole frame or frames, so, using error correction technologies, the

missing data can be recovered and the disc can play normally without

discernible loss of content or quality.

Use these tips when ripping audio and your chances for success will

increase:

1. Make sure the disc is clean, free of dust, fingerprints and other

foreign matter. Discs can be cleaned with commercially available

cleaners and cleaning kits, but these are not necessary to ensure a

clean, readable disc. Simply hold the disc under warm, running water.

Lather one hand with hand soap (bar or liquid), and rub the soap gently

on both sides of the disc with your fingers. Rise your hands and the

disc well with warm water and pat the disc dry with a soft, lint-free

cloth or towel.

2. Make sure the disc does not suffer from any of the following

conditions: warping, deep scratches, or a nicked or peeling reflective

surface. These can cause the reading drive to seek excessively as it

tries to read damaged or unreadable errors, resulting in long ripping

times or corrupted files.

3. Use your best drive for ripping, even if it is not your fastest

drive. If you have more than one CD recorder or CD-ROM drive, try your

fastest drive first. If the results are not satisfactory (you can tell

by listening to the ripped file!, use a slower drive.

"Best drive" is, of course, a subjective judgment that you will need to

make for yourself after some experimentation. You can usually depend on

drives from well-known manufacturers to do a good job at audio

extraction. On the other hand, some models from major manufacturers have

been known to do extraction poorly or not at all. Many inexpensive,

non-branded drives rip audio just fine. Newer drives will perform better

than older drives, not just because they are newer, but because many of

them incorporate new technology that makes ripping faster and more

accurate. While many older CD-ROM drives will work for extracting audio,

they were not built or optimized for that task, and extraction software

will have to work longer and harder to get the audio track from the disc

into a clean file for recording to CD-R.

4. If possible, dedicate a hard disk drive to ripped files, perhaps an

older, smaller hard drive that you have lying around. This prevents hard

disk phenomena (such as cross-linked files and excessive fragmentation)

from causing problems when you re-record the files to CD. If you use a

separate drive, you should have to defragment it less frequently, as all

the files on it will be large files. An added bonus is that, instead of

defragmenting the drive, you can just format it after you have made your

CD and be assured of clean contiguous disc space for your next

extraction job. (Recall that full defragmentation of a large hard drive

takes quite a bit of time, and ties up your computer til it's done.)

5. Get a good CD-ROM drive for audio extraction. How do you know which

ones are good? The Adaptec CD-R discussion list is a good place to find

out the opinions of many other CD-R users; the question has been

discussed extensively in the list in the past, and is frequently

re-discussed as new models are released. To see what's been said most

recently, have a look at the list archives at

http://listserv.adaptec.com . You can also join the list yourself and

ask; see http://www.cdrcentral.com/community/policies.html for more

information.



Why Ripping Can Be Such a Pain

------------------------------

To understand why audio ripping can be so unpredictable, we need to look

at the structure and function of audio discs as opposed to data discs.

Copying files from a data disc to hard disk is easy and reliable. This

is not always the case with audio tracks. An audio (Red Book) disc is

divided into three distinct areas: the Lead In, the Program Area, and

the Lead Out. The location, or address, of each audio track on a disc is

stored in the disc's Table of Contents (TOC) in the Lead In area of the

disc.

The TOC of an audio disc, much like a book's, is a good source for

finding out what is where on the disc, but it cannot always lead you to

the right place in the book. Let's say we have a chapter in a book that

is entitled "How to Record an Audio CD". If we want to learn about

ripping, the TOC will tell us that this chapter begins on page 123, but

it does not tell us where within the chapter the part about ripping

begins. The Table of Contents on an audio CD tells the CD-ROM drive

approximately where a song begins on the disc, but, unlike a data

CD-ROM, it doesn't tell the drive exactly where it starts.

Since audio discs were designed to be played sequentially in real time,

it was not thought necessary to have information on the disc that

pinpointed the exact location of the beginning of a track; it was good

enough to get close to the location. To have that extra data with an

exact starting address for every track would have taken up space on the

disc that could otherwise be used for music.

The sectors on a data CD, on the other hand, has only 2,048 bytes of

user data in each 2,352-byte CD-ROM sector. These sectors can be

accessed exactly because the header information (the remaining 304

bytes) in each sector holds the precise address of the data block.

An audio block also contains 2,352 bytes, but all of these bytes are

used for audio. There is no header, so there is no information within

the block to allow for the exact positioning of a drive's read head over

a particular block. To locate a specific audio block, a CD drive must

take advantage of the Q subcode, but this allows head positioning only

to within 1 second of the true block address. When seeking an audio

block, a CD-ROM drive only moves the read head to a position close to

the requested block, and then it compares the Q subcode to the block

address being sought. The Q subcode references the minute, second, and

frames relative to the start of the track and also the Absolute Time

(that is, the time in minutes, seconds, and frames relative to the whole

disc).

When a drive is asked to seek to an audio sector, it begins reading,

then compares the Q subcode information to the block address it is

looking for. Data transfer begins when the drive has located a Q subcode

address close to the requested block address. Many CD-ROM drives seek an

audio address within four Q subcode addresses of the address being

sought (4/75th of a second in playback time). In this scenario, a

request for a particular audio block could return any of nine blocks

close to the desired position. This is why extraction is not exact.

Clicks and pops that you sometimes hear in ripped files can be caused by

this inexact positioning.



About Accurate Streaming Technology

-----------------------------------

Recently, some advances in extraction technology have made ripping much

less troublesome, and completely error-free in many cases. The ATAPI

(SFF8020) specification includes the new MMC command set and is now used

by many drive manufacturers in current lines of CD-ROM drives. The

Multimedia Command Set (MMC) has this advantage: many of the commands

that were previously performed in software can now be executed by the

CD-ROM's controller chip. One of these functions is the real-time error

correction of Layer 3 Reed-Solomon Product-like Code (RSPC). Others are

error detection, real-time ECC correction of one byte per P-word and

Q-word, and repeated ECC passes. Repeated ECC passes increase the

reliability of the drive's read function. Controllers from Oak

Technology and Winbond, the most widely used CD-ROM drive controller

chips, have these functions built-in. Accordingly, recorders and drives

with these chips can extract audio more effectively and efficiently;

less complicated algorithms can be used by the ripping software. As

these controller chips position the read head more accurately than

before, existing synchronized read algorithms will also work faster.

This is because data comparisons will match sooner and the head can then

move to the next portion of data quickly. This new feature is called

"Accurate Streaming". Drives using Accurate Streaming can rip in a burst

mode. Thus, extraction speeds are faster and the extraction is much more

accurate.

So, follow the above tips and rip away! Extraction is getting easier and

more accurate all the time. You will still have bad days. But at the end

of the day, when you are sitting back enjoying your latest compilation,

the bad times will fade away into the music.

-------------------------

If a technical term is unfamiliar to you, you can look it up in the CD-R

Glossary:

coaster http://www.adaptec.com/tools/glossary/cdrec.html
Mics: Earthworks SR-77 (MP), QTC-1 (MP)

Editing: QSC RMX2450, MOTU 2408 MK3, Earthworks Sigma 6.2

Offline John Kelly

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Re:Mac drag-and-drop - where's the DAE?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2003, 11:09:26 AM »
Maybe that should be in the archives?  +t for the novel. ;)
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Offline greenone

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Re:Mac drag-and-drop - where's the DAE?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2003, 02:39:38 PM »
Damn. Oh well. +T to Wayne for using so many words to dash my hopes. ;)
Unofficial Blues Traveler archivist - glad to work on any BT or related recordings
archive.org admin - happy to upload tracked material to the LMA

 

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