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Author Topic: 24 bit > 16 bit  (Read 26428 times)

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Offline Belexes

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24 bit > 16 bit
« on: August 31, 2007, 09:08:42 AM »
If I record at 24 bit, but then dither it to 16 bit, is it not just like recording 16 bit in the first place or is there some advantage to this other than most people don't want DVD-A's of the concerts?
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Offline BC

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2007, 05:15:07 PM »
you can be more conservative setting your levels during the performance and still preserve dynamic range for the dithered 16 bit version. Also if you do any editing you will have better results doing the editing at 24 bit.


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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2007, 07:00:48 PM »
^^^^ Two best reasons right there: greater headroom when recording and the ability to master in 24 bit means fewer artifacts.    8)
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Offline Belexes

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2007, 04:47:54 AM »
I like the headroom.  :D

I don't do much with my recordings in terms of mastering and usually leave them raw other than possible fades and track splitting.

I may try 24 bit for Joe Bonamassa on Sunday and see what I capture.  Thanks guys.
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Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2007, 08:27:12 AM »
better headroom, better dynamics(right?) and just more resolution overall, therev are millions of samples per second compared to thousands too I believe. sorry, its been a LONG nite for me and my terminology isnt exactly great right now. I only add gain/resample from 48k>44.1k and use the Apogee UV22HR dither. on my most recent 8/30 recordings, the lowend was kind of light at the show,a nd I simply added +3-4db low-end gain in Wavelab's multiband compressor and it really fiolled out the tape very nicely. JUST ENOUGH bass/lowend now! But I def dont do alot of editing and have only added lowend on maybe 5 sets in the last 3 years so I am also a minimalist as well and like to keep it simple.

Overall, 24-bit just has more resolution and if you read up on the technical aspect of 24 vs. 16-bit, you will never want to record 16-bit again. I do dither EVERY show to 16-bit for the masses for easy spreading of shows online, but I also upload my 24-bit flacs to archive.org for the folks(mainly tapers) that can take advantage and appreciate the higher resolution 24-bit files......I can def hear a huge difference between 24 and 16-bit especially on my good headphones(cans). on teh headphones the difference REALLY jumps out at you/me :)

And like they said, you can run more conservatively in 24-bit since you dont have to get the most out of your levels like in 16-bit, and you can easily add gain in post to get near 0db(I do anyways). and when adding the gain in 24-bit, the noise floor ratio is SO LOW in 24-bit, you hear ZERO noise(I cant anyway) even adding up to +12db of gain in 24-bit in post. if you were to add +12db of gain in 16-bit, you would most definitely hear a good bit of noise added to the signal.

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Offline Lil Kim Jong-Il

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2007, 09:10:02 AM »
Another benefit is that 24-bit sounds better in playback.  You might not care right now, but if you eventually upgrade to a high resolution 24-bit playback system, you'll be stunned at the audible difference and happy that your old masters were recorded that way.  I've asked some people if they had their DVD played connected to their stereo and then sent them the 24-bit stuff too and often they comment on the difference.
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Offline Belexes

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2007, 12:12:00 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.
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Offline StuStu

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2007, 05:59:26 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

I use DVD-Audiofile or Lplex. Both programs are free and pretty simple to use. These programs will create an image file.

For Nero: In the "Backup" tab select "Burn Image to Disc." You'll love the sound of your 24-bit recordings. Enjoy!  :headphones:
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2007, 06:26:56 PM »
To understand why there is better detail and dynamic range, understand that 16 bit is 2 to the 16th power; 24 bit is 2 to the 24th power.  This is a huge difference.  Another way to understand it is to look at the old computer game of Pong and then see what they are doing now with games.  Same thing: longer words (more bits).

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2007, 12:33:16 PM »
no, its not
if so 24 bit files would be  256  times larger than a 16-bit recording

its really (for 48K audio)
16 bit: 48000 samples/sec x 2 channels x 16 bits/sample = about 1.5 Mbits/sec
24 bit: 48000 samples/sec x 2 channels x 24 bits/sample = about 2.3 Mbits/sec

the advantage is of course increased headroom, each bit is 6 dB or resolution
16 bit = 96 dB of dynamic range
24 bit = 144 dB of dynamic range.

The best gear out there tops out at about 120 dB of dynamic range, which means that:
a) you cant capture all of the sound in 16 bits.
b) you can capture all of the sound in 24 bits, even if your peaking at about -24dB

while people say 'theres more headroom when you record in 24 bit', this headroom DOES NOT translate to 16 bit unless you normalize it while in the 24 bit realm

in other words, take a 24 bit recording that peaks at -24 dB. the dynamic range is 120 dB. if you convert this to 16 bit with no normalization, your new dynamic range is 96-24dB=72 dB (not so good).

If you were to normalize the 24-bit file to 0 dB, youd still have a dynamic range of 120 dB (you amplified the noise too), then when you dither and convert it to 16 bit, you have the full 96 dB of headroom.

i hope that makes sense.




To understand why there is better detail and dynamic range, understand that 16 bit is 2 to the 16th power; 24 bit is 2 to the 24th power. 
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2007, 12:37:47 PM »
^^^^ JF - I think you are right.  It is a 24 bit word as opposed to a 16 bit word.
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Offline svenkid

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2007, 03:46:23 PM »
thanks for the nero tip!

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Offline taosmay

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2007, 08:47:11 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

I use DVD-Audiofile or Lplex. Both programs are free and pretty simple to use. These programs will create an image file.

For Nero: In the "Backup" tab select "Burn Image to Disc." You'll love the sound of your 24-bit recordings. Enjoy!  :headphones:

Do DVD-Audiofile and/or Lplex work on Mac's? If not, what programs will?
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2007, 11:43:38 PM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

As far as the R09 goes, there is no benefit to going 24bit.  The noise floor (if you short the inputs) is about -90dB, so it is good to only about 15 bits anyway.  (Recall, one bit gives you 6dB of dynamic range, so 16 bits is 16x6 = 96dB of dynamic range.)

On better gear, you are *lucky* to get 18bits, so that is 2 more bits, or 12dB more dynamics range than a 16 bit recording.

The upshot is: go 16 bit on low end gear, go 24 bit on high end gear, but don't expect more than about 12dB dynamic range.  In practice, this allows you to get *a bit* more detail, or, if your destination is 16 bits only, you can run the inputs a bit lower and have some headroom.

I run my Edirol R09 at 16 bit.  On my Edirol R4 I run 24 bit, and leave 12dB headroom.  I mix both down to 16 bit for archiving.

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Offline Will_S

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2007, 12:30:43 AM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

As far as the R09 goes, there is no benefit to going 24bit.  The noise floor (if you short the inputs) is about -90dB, so it is good to only about 15 bits anyway.  (Recall, one bit gives you 6dB of dynamic range, so 16 bits is 16x6 = 96dB of dynamic range.)

Do I understand correctly that this noise floor is inherent to the analog parts of the ADC, and independent of the preamp/gain settings?  Therefore meaning (I think) that with the Edirol it is NOT a good idea to run 24 bit with conservative levels (say peaks at -12 dB) and boot in post / dither to 16 bit later, as doing so will result in an effective dynaimc range of ~ 14 bits?

Any advantage to recording in 24 bit (but with hotter levels) for stuff that is going to undergo significant postprocessing, eg mixing down a mid-side recording?

Also, could it be that random/analog noise is somehow less objectionable that quantization noise, and so there can still be some advantage to running 24 bit even with gear that has a noise floor close to but slightly above the 16 bit dynamic range limit?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2007, 12:33:36 AM by Will_S »

Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2007, 02:05:11 AM »

As far as the R09 goes, there is no benefit to going 24bit.  The noise floor (if you short the inputs) is about -90dB, so it is good to only about 15 bits anyway.  (Recall, one bit gives you 6dB of dynamic range, so 16 bits is 16x6 = 96dB of dynamic range.)

Do I understand correctly that this noise floor is inherent to the analog parts of the ADC, and independent of the preamp/gain settings?  Therefore meaning (I think) that with the Edirol it is NOT a good idea to run 24 bit with conservative levels (say peaks at -12 dB) and boot in post / dither to 16 bit later, as doing so will result in an effective dynaimc range of ~ 14 bits?

I'm not sure if it is ADC or a combination of the premp/ADC, but that chip (all-in-one Burr-Brown part) is rated for a max SNR of 90dB, ie., approx. 15 bits.  So, yes, you should run as hot as possible for a good recording.  But even at -12dB or -6dB it is still great.  I suspect many people are not getting even that.  My experience is most of the detail seems to be coming from the mics first, then from the preamp.  The ADC seems to be pretty good.

Quote
Any advantage to recording in 24 bit (but with hotter levels) for stuff that is going to undergo significant postprocessing, eg mixing down a mid-side recording?

Yes, I think one should *process* in 24 bit, if you're going to.  Then dither back down to 16 bits.

Quote
Also, could it be that random/analog noise is somehow less objectionable that quantization noise, and so there can still be some advantage to running 24 bit even with gear that has a noise floor close to but slightly above the 16 bit dynamic range limit?

I'm not sure about that.  But as I said above *some* high end gear could give you 18 or if really high end, I suppose 20 bits, but I wouldn't count on more than 18 bits really.  So, run your gear 12dB down, dither to 16 and it should be fine.

This is only my experience.  If anyone can report gear capable of really using more bits all through the signal chain, I'd love to hear about it...

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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2007, 04:23:33 AM »
no, its not
if so 24 bit files would be  256  times larger than a 16-bit recording

i hope that makes sense.




To understand why there is better detail and dynamic range, understand that 16 bit is 2 to the 16th power; 24 bit is 2 to the 24th power. 

Jerry -  I think you are wrong here.  The word length is longer, 16 bit vs 24 bit.  The word itself has the ability to describe that many more degrees because it now has 24 bit switches instead of 16 bit switches.  I will have to check my reference texts on this.  Sampling rate  will make for huge file increases. 

OK, Google is our friend.  I found this:

"Bit Depth refers to the number of bits you have to capture audio.  The easiest way to envision this is as a series of levels, that audio energy can be sliced at any given moment in time.  With 16 bit audio, there are 65,536 possible levels.  With every bit of greater resolution, the number of levels double.  By the time we get to 24 bit, we actually have 16,777,216 levels.  Remember we are talking about a slice of audio frozen in a single moment of time." 

I edited a garbled reference in the 16 bit resolution.  It is beginning to look as if I had it right.  2 to the 16th power is 65,536.  Likewise the 2 to the 24th power is the 16,777,216 which is not used to describe the size of the file.  It is the possible combinations within a 24 bit word as opposed to a 16 bit word.  The link is here:  http://www.tweakheadz.com/16_vs_24_bit_audio.htm.  See also this citation in the Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth

It is the same with digital photos.  300 bit resolution is much better than 72.  Fineness of grain and spectrum of color are vastly improved.  OK??  Let me know if this does not jibe with what you think is right.

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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2007, 05:58:54 AM »
More sample depth means ONLY more dynamic range, nothing else. No more "resolution" or such. More dynamic range is a good thing. Yes. Makes level setting easier, keeps artefacts at bay when editing.

But how much do you need? No need to get overexited here, how many of you can listen to even 16 bit 96 dB clean dynamic range? Typical living/listening room has at least 40-50 dB noise floor, add 96 dB to that and you would have to have 136-146 dB peak volumes to enjoy the full dynamic range... Even if we can pick out detail mixed with the ambient noise you would have to play the recordings at well over 110 dB peak levels to hear the 16 bit limitations. For me and my quite good stereo system 105 dB(A) is the most I can stand for breef periods.

The noise you hear on you recordings does not come from 16 bit limitations, it is the mic & electronics which let you down like some have already pointed out. It might say 24 bit on that switch, but the mic preamps might give only 14 bit equivalent resolution. Very few mics themselves have more than 70 dB dynamic range (13 bits...) etc. Keeping that in mind there is no real benefit in going from 16 to 24 bits (exept safer headrooms when recording).
-------
About the theory behind the bit depth/dynamic range: Simple: adding one more bit to the sample the maximum size of the sample can be twice as big (this is with binary numbers, with our normal numbers adding one digit the numer can be ten times as big). As the sample represents the signal voltage, the loudness level represented can be 6 dB more for each added bit. The loudness levels are not more finely gradiated or anything like that, just the loudness difference between noise floor and maximum level is bigger with more sample depth.

Offline libfab

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2007, 06:05:09 AM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

I use DVD-Audiofile or Lplex. Both programs are free and pretty simple to use. These programs will create an image file.



For Nero: In the "Backup" tab select "Burn Image to Disc." You'll love the sound of your 24-bit recordings. Enjoy!  :headphones:

Do DVD-Audiofile and/or Lplex work on Mac's? If not, what programs will?


DVD-Audiofile has a Mac version, check here http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/28674

Lplex is an open-source project, so you can download the source and compile it to make a binary for Mac. A windows binary is distributed on sourceforge here http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=171628
I know a Linux binary has been compiled by udovdh (send him a PM) although not yet officially distributed on sourceforge.



Offline Gollum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2007, 07:17:14 AM »
What programs do you guys use to burn DVD-A's with your 24 bit masters?  I have Nero and I don't think it has DVD-A capability (?).  Must be some open source programs out there?

I just got the R-09 and with only a 2 gig card I was worried about running out of space when recording 24 bit, so my first master was 16 bit.  I now have a 4 gig card and want to run 24 bit.

I use DVD-Audiofile or Lplex. Both programs are free and pretty simple to use. These programs will create an image file.



For Nero: In the "Backup" tab select "Burn Image to Disc." You'll love the sound of your 24-bit recordings. Enjoy!  :headphones:

Do DVD-Audiofile and/or Lplex work on Mac's? If not, what programs will?


DVD-Audiofile has a Mac version, check here http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/28674

Lplex is an open-source project, so you can download the source and compile it to make a binary for Mac. A windows binary is distributed on sourceforge here http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=171628
I know a Linux binary has been compiled by udovdh (send him a PM) although not yet officially distributed on sourceforge.




This is a little off-topic since the Mac program I'm using doesn't write DVD-A discs. Since I don't have a DVD-A player at home, I've used Toast Titanium 7 to write several "Music DVDs" with my 24-bit files. Encoding options are 24/96 PCM, 16/48 PCM and Dolby Digital. I can fit 2+ hours on one disc using 24/96 (24/48 isn't an available option.)

The discs will play on any DVD player or PC, unfortunately there are short skips between tracks. But at least I can play my 24-bit files for now.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2007, 01:04:41 PM »
More sample depth means ONLY more dynamic range, nothing else. No more "resolution" or such.

< snip >

The noise you hear on you recordings does not come from 16 bit limitations, it is the mic & electronics which let you down like some have already pointed out. It might say 24 bit on that switch, but the mic preamps might give only 14 bit equivalent resolution. Very few mics themselves have more than 70 dB dynamic range (13 bits...) etc. Keeping that in mind there is no real benefit in going from 16 to 24 bits (exept safer headrooms when recording).

I haven't had a chance to do a proper A/B test, but plenty of ad hoc recording and listening reveals my 24-bit recordings sound better to my ears.  If longer word length means ONLY greater dynamic range...and not greater resolution...and the mics are limited to 13-14 dB of dynamic range, then there should be no audible difference between a 16-bit and 24-bit recording (assuming the same sample rate).  So why do my 24-bit recordings sound better than my 16-bit recordings?
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2007, 01:44:26 PM »
I agree that the sound should be better.  After all, the vocabulary to describe the music jumps from 65K words to 16G words.  The vocabulary has increased by several orders of magnitude.  Likewise DPI in photos and computer screens.  I do not have the data but would say the the "vocabulary" is a good metaphor.  As always, YMMV 
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Offline svenkid

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2007, 02:33:30 PM »
how do we burn these 24 bit dvds in nero? I went to he copy image to disc, but then it lists music dvd, OK then a mp3 dvd, wma dvd or a nero audio dvd. I tried nero audio, so converted a wav to both wma and mp4, which are nero audio formats, and both were drastically smaller than the original wavs, Wha am I missing here?
Seriously, the band makes the music. Tapers just point mics in the right direction and hit "record".

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Offline StuStu

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2007, 03:21:38 PM »
how do we burn these 24 bit dvds in nero? I went to he copy image to disc, but then it lists music dvd, OK then a mp3 dvd, wma dvd or a nero audio dvd. I tried nero audio, so converted a wav to both wma and mp4, which are nero audio formats, and both were drastically smaller than the original wavs, Wha am I missing here?

I responded to your PM. I hope that helps. You must create an image file using one of the afformentioned programs. That's what you'll burn in Nero. Don't bother with the Nero Audio or WMA options.   
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Offline kindms

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2007, 04:07:36 PM »
More sample depth means ONLY more dynamic range, nothing else. No more "resolution" or such. More dynamic range is a good thing. Yes. Makes level setting easier, keeps artefacts at bay when editing.

But how much do you need? No need to get overexited here, how many of you can listen to even 16 bit 96 dB clean dynamic range? Typical living/listening room has at least 40-50 dB noise floor, add 96 dB to that and you would have to have 136-146 dB peak volumes to enjoy the full dynamic range... Even if we can pick out detail mixed with the ambient noise you would have to play the recordings at well over 110 dB peak levels to hear the 16 bit limitations. For me and my quite good stereo system 105 dB(A) is the most I can stand for breef periods.

The noise you hear on you recordings does not come from 16 bit limitations, it is the mic & electronics which let you down like some have already pointed out. It might say 24 bit on that switch, but the mic preamps might give only 14 bit equivalent resolution. Very few mics themselves have more than 70 dB dynamic range (13 bits...) etc. Keeping that in mind there is no real benefit in going from 16 to 24 bits (exept safer headrooms when recording).
-------
About the theory behind the bit depth/dynamic range: Simple: adding one more bit to the sample the maximum size of the sample can be twice as big (this is with binary numbers, with our normal numbers adding one digit the numer can be ten times as big). As the sample represents the signal voltage, the loudness level represented can be 6 dB more for each added bit. The loudness levels are not more finely gradiated or anything like that, just the loudness difference between noise floor and maximum level is bigger with more sample depth.

Very few mics ?

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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2007, 05:00:26 PM »
AKG414XLS signal to noise ratio = 88 dB (14.7 bits)

(source: AKG spec sheet)
--------------

Lets get the facts straight: Bit depth means the maximum dynamic range, 6 dB for each bit. Sample rate determines the frequency range, max frequency = sampling rate/2. There is NOTHING more to this, no hidden "resolution" things. Photo analogy does not work, we do not enlarge audio.

When the dynamic range of the recording system gets past the weakest link in the system, there is enough DR. When the upper frequency gets past the human hearing, we have enough samples. That's it. Having some more does not hurt, it might come in handy with heavy editing. With normal recordings, not.

I have not seen or heard about a scientific double blind tests where people have been able to discern between top quality 16/44.1k and 24/96k. I know several tests where they were NOT able to tell live analog from 16/44.1, or 24/96k downsampled to 16 /44.1 from the original signal. 16/44.1k is good enough for me as the final product.

We have the tools to make audio perfect, only if we learned to use the best available mics, acoustics, and set the levels corectly...

Offline kindms

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2007, 05:04:40 PM »
AKG414XLS signal to noise ratio = 88 dB (14.7 bits)

(source: AKG spec sheet)
--------------

Lets get the facts straight: Bit depth means the maximum dynamic range, 6 dB for each bit. Sample rate determines the frequency range, max frequency = sampling rate/2. There is NOTHING more to this, no hidden "resolution" things. Photo analogy does not work, we do not enlarge audio.

When the dynamic range of the recording system gets past the weakest link in the system, there is enough DR. When the upper frequency gets past the human hearing, we have enough samples. That's it. Having some more does not hurt, it might come in handy with heavy editing. With normal recordings, not.

I have not seen or heard about a scientific double blind tests where people have been able to discern between top quality 16/44.1k and 24/96k. I know several tests where they were NOT able to tell live analog from 16/44.1, or 24/96k downsampled to 16 /44.1 from the original signal. 16/44.1k is good enough for me as the final product.

We have the tools to make audio perfect, only if we learned to use the best available mics, acoustics, and set the levels corectly...

You said dynamic range in your last post which is why I pointed to the specs. I thought you might have meant signal to noise but thats not what was in your post and will surely confuse the discussion. Just wanted to clarify. I always find these discussions interesting
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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2007, 05:35:10 PM »
There is a difference between dynamic range and S/N ratio, true, but S/N ratio of 88 dB means that the noise floor is never further than 88 dB form the loudest signal the mic records. That much about the 24 bit detail advantage.

Further thoughts on the audio/photo comparasons and analogies:

Dynamic range, determined by sample depth: in audio, the difference between the softest and the loudest possible sound. In photography, the difference between the darkest and the lightest part of the picture. In photography 8 bits have been the norm, now we are moving to 12 or 14 bit processors. The problem is that printed pictures have only about 7 bit DR, improvement is mostly theoretical, or gives some leeway in exposure (analogous to setting levels in audio). With high enough bits there would not be need to set levels (some new digital mics wok this way), 24 bits is almost like that. With enough bits in photography any exposure would give a perfect picture (sensor technology is not there yet). Basically one bit or 6 dB corresponds to one f-stop in photography.

Sample rate: in audio this determines the highest recordable frequency. In photography it determines the resolution. There is one major difference here: in audio we use only one "size"; we (almost) always listen to the recordings at their original size (speed). In photography we can enlarge the picture untill the resolution gives in, in audio the corresponding thing would be slowing down the audio and loosing the highs! Very seldom done. For that reason we do not really need more "resolution" with audio like we want to have with pictures (even there we seldom make door sized prints).

 

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2007, 08:31:00 PM »
So why do my 24-bit recordings sound better than my 16-bit recordings?

I think it's because the noise-floor is much lower.

All converters add dither as a part of the conversion process. With a 16-bit converter the signal is dithered at the 16-bit level. Typicially with 24-bit there is additional detail not masked by the dither.

A 24-bit recording should sound a bit clearer.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2007, 08:57:05 PM »


while people say 'theres more headroom when you record in 24 bit', this headroom DOES NOT translate to 16 bit unless you normalize it while in the 24 bit realm

in other words, take a 24 bit recording that peaks at -24 dB. the dynamic range is 120 dB. if you convert this to 16 bit with no normalization, your new dynamic range is 96-24dB=72 dB (not so good).

If you were to normalize the 24-bit file to 0 dB, youd still have a dynamic range of 120 dB (you amplified the noise too), then when you dither and convert it to 16 bit, you have the full 96 dB of headroom.



Good point, it's important to remember this when preparing your 16 bit dithered versions from the 24 bit masters.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2007, 10:04:00 PM »
I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample.  In other words, instead of graphing a curve using only (for example) 16 dots or points, now we have significantly more data points along the same curve, making it a much more accurate representation of the original analog soundwave.  If this is not really the case, then I understand the argument for sticking with 16 bits, but as mentioned above, while most people today (including me) do not have 24 bit playback systems, the difference is akin to that between old TV and HDTV.  What we may be doing now is archiving for the future, when 24 bit playback will be the norm.  It would have been nice to just have had DATs at Dead shows from the beginning, but imagine if we had today's equipment available back then.  If we really are not capturing more information and resolution, then I would like to know it, and would appreciate further responses from those of you out there who clearly have superior technical knowledge.
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Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2007, 11:43:11 PM »
I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample. 

<snip>


So, too, do I believe.  It is pretty simple mathematics.  I am not sure that I could hear the difference in a true double blind test.  I have not tried it yet.  But better ears should be able to hear it.  FWIW, a pro forum has recommended I record bluegrass in 24/96 rather than 24/48 to capture the complex overtones of bluegrass.  If bluegrass has complex overtones, a symphonic orchestra has to be off the charts.  I have the ability to do that with my hardware.  But I do wonder if it is overkill.  The same forum has argued that 24/96 is just a waste of bandwidth.  Well, when I have normalized and dithered I can save it resampled as 16/44.1 and see what I have.  No A-B test will be possible.

Oh, well.  Life in the tape lane.

Cheers
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2007, 12:17:26 AM »
IMO, in this case, the bigger the better...  More data equals better sound...

T

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2007, 12:59:44 AM »
IMO, in this case, the bigger the better...  More data equals better sound...

T



No person, other than Ohm, has caused more debate in audio than Nyquist.  I think I have seen some debates here about whether 44.1 is enough, or 48, or 96 KHz sampling, and that 96, which is an 48KHz upper limit is useless and so on.  My name is been it and I'm not in it.

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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2007, 02:07:30 AM »
Yes, bigger is better, but when we get past the hearing limits of humans (20000 Hz for youngsters, maybe 16kHz for me...) the improvement can not be heard (sampling rates over 44.1 kHz). Some argue that music has overtones which cause lower frequency interference signals and it is true, but by recording up to the hearing limits we do catch all those signals we can hear! Using 96kHz might, might be usefull with heavy editing, specially with slow down effects. 24 bits is usefull from levels setting point of view, but for the final product 16 bits is good enough. Like I said before, hardly anybody has listening systems or spaces to utilize even that. It is not the 16 bits that set the limits, analog systems, microphones and loudspeaker/room systems are the bottlenecks. It just so much easier and cheaper to use 24 bits and "hear" the difference than use $100000 to refurbish the living room to state of the art studio level.
----------

One more observation about the bit depth and dynamic range/"resolution" connection. The A/D converter is a linear device; double the voltage = double the sample value, which simply means one more bit in binary system. That gives the 6 dB/bit result. If we would like to use this 16 -> 24 bit depth improvement for more "accuracy" or something, we would have to compress the analog signal before digitizing, then expand it in analog domain again. This would cause much more damage to the waveform than just digitizing it raw like we do.

And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2007, 02:31:17 AM »

And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

Frequencies over 50KHz have been verified on analog recordings.  16/44.1 is arguably the worst invention in the history of recorded music, completely short-sighted and profit-driven.  I'm not saying 24/96 is the answer either, but saying there's no people can't discern the difference between analog and 16/44.1 couldn't be further from the truth.

BTW, welcome to TS.com.

Chris
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 03:02:23 AM by cshepherd »

Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2007, 04:20:59 AM »

And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

Frequencies over 50KHz have been verified on analog recordings.  16/44.1 is arguably the worst invention in the history of recorded music, completely short-sighted and profit-driven.  I'm not saying 24/96 is the answer either, but saying there's no people can't discern the difference between analog and 16/44.1 couldn't be further from the truth.

BTW, welcome to TS.com.

Chris

To clarify: discern between analog form mic/turntable and the same signal that has gone thorough AD/DA conversion at 16/44.1 quality.

I can tell analog recording from 16/44.1 digital any day... Hiss, wobble, harmonic distortion...

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2007, 02:29:38 PM »
thats close, but you really should be thinking of sample rate, not bit depth as 'more points on the line'. In addition to providing higher top frequency, more points more closely approximates a true analog waveform.

bit depth is all about headroom and dynamic range, and the elimination of low-level artifacts.



I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample.  In other words, instead of graphing a curve using only (for example) 16 dots or points, now we have significantly more data points along the same curve, making it a much more accurate representation of the original analog soundwave.  If this is not really the case, then I understand the argument for sticking with 16 bits, but as mentioned above, while most people today (including me) do not have 24 bit playback systems, the difference is akin to that between old TV and HDTV.  What we may be doing now is archiving for the future, when 24 bit playback will be the norm.  It would have been nice to just have had DATs at Dead shows from the beginning, but imagine if we had today's equipment available back then.  If we really are not capturing more information and resolution, then I would like to know it, and would appreciate further responses from those of you out there who clearly have superior technical knowledge.
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2007, 03:02:23 PM »
And besides, in double blind tests people have not been able to discern between original analog and 16/44.1 signal, which pretty much proves it is good enough for final output. Then again, hard disk space is cheap and if 24/96kHz makes people happy, there is no damage done. Just do not rationalize it to me with the wrong arguments.

I would think that some people would be able to distinguish between analog/16-44.1 and between 16-44.1/24-96. Just because some people cannot distinguish does not mean that they are indistinguishable for everyone.

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Offline rowjimmytour

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2007, 03:30:36 PM »
I would say the jump from 16 to 24 bit has been the 2/nd greatest improvement to my lineage so far with new mics being number one. I heard the difference right away and still think my shows are better even after I dither to 16bit. One thing I have not been able to tell the difference is the sample rate from 48khz to 96khz but I have not done a A-B test so I am not 100% sure. I have done 24 bit 96 one time so far and I was running MS and noticed it makes the files real large and hard to work with so I decided to change to 48 instead. I am a believer of preserving the show the best one can archive but I think 24 48 is about right for my preference.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2007, 03:33:15 PM »
thats close, but you really should be thinking of sample rate, not bit depth as 'more points on the line'. In addition to providing higher top frequency, more points more closely approximates a true analog waveform.

bit depth is all about headroom and dynamic range, and the elimination of low-level artifacts.



I had always understood the difference between 16 and 24 bit not to be just the headroom, but also the amount of data points available to describe each sample.  In other words, instead of graphing a curve using only (for example) 16 dots or points, now we have significantly more data points along the same curve, making it a much more accurate representation of the original analog soundwave.  If this is not really the case, then I understand the argument for sticking with 16 bits, but as mentioned above, while most people today (including me) do not have 24 bit playback systems, the difference is akin to that between old TV and HDTV.  What we may be doing now is archiving for the future, when 24 bit playback will be the norm.  It would have been nice to just have had DATs at Dead shows from the beginning, but imagine if we had today's equipment available back then.  If we really are not capturing more information and resolution, then I would like to know it, and would appreciate further responses from those of you out there who clearly have superior technical knowledge.

I'm with jerryfreak on this one.  From what gratefulphish is desribing -- more data points to better describe the curve of the analog waveform -- sounds to me like he is taking about sampling frequency.  More bits of data means a better ability to transcribe analog audio is true, but there are two different ways to get more bits, and each one effects a different aspect of the analog audio.  The bit depth, going to 24bits, only addresses the amplitude of the audio -- so how loud or soft the music is.  Thus, just as has been said -- more bit depth allows for greater dynamic range.

Bit depth has nothing to do with describing the frequency of the analog signal, which is a time function.  Greater resolution in bit depth has nothing to do with increased frequency resolution -- that increased resolution is the result of a higher sampling frequency like 96khz.

This document is pretty helpful:

http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/pdfs/audaudioprimer.pdf

Also, I haven't thoroughly read through this thread so I might have missed it.  As people have said, recording at 24bits is better if you want to do any post-processing.  But another reason to record at 24bits rather than at 16bits even if you will be dithering to 16bits is the quality of the dithering available to you in your field recording equipment.  At this point, much of the available ICs used internally in our recorders/ADs will be 24bit.  To record at 16bits, the recorder will need to dither down the 24bit data to 16bit data. 

The quality of these dither routines varies, and different equipment mfgs and software vendors use different routines -- Sony's SBM process, Apogee's UVHR process, Grace's ANSR method, etc.  The quality of say the UA-5's on-board dither process might not be as good (or as good sounding to any particular individual's ears) as a dither process available via s/w.  Wavelab in particular has licensed Apogee's UVHR dither process, so dithering from 24>16 in post using Wavelab might sound noticably better than whatever dither routine your AD or recorder uses.
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Offline live2496

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2007, 05:13:40 PM »
The bit depth helps with the dynamic range.

If we think of each bit being about 6db, you have more levels to represent the signal strength and polarity at any instant in time.

It doesn't give you extra loudness, but it does the opposite in that it gives you greater detail of sounds you wouldn't normally hear (that would be otherwise masked by noise.) Things to listen for are decay of sounds and reverb tails.
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2007, 05:20:19 PM »
The bit depth helps with the dynamic range.

If we think of each bit being about 6db, you have more levels to represent the signal strength and polarity at any instant in time.

It doesn't give you extra loudness, but it does the opposite in that it gives you greater detail of sounds you wouldn't normally hear (that would be otherwise masked by noise.) Things to listen for are decay of sounds and reverb tails.

Yeah, but good is more "detail" if at the same time you add more "noise"?  You add eight extra bits going from 16->24 bit, but what if those extra eight bits are just random?  The equipment has to have a noise floor lower than -96dB to take advantage of those extra bits.  What is the best rated ADC out there?  They rate the SNR, that is, what is the ratio of converter noise to the maximum input (0dB FS).  The highest ones are, what, 108dB?  That is something like 18 bits, right?

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2007, 05:27:35 PM »
<<< just go record >>>

Exactly.  I'm just trying to dispell some myths out there.  Everyone thinks more bits/higher sampling rate/etc are better, when in reality there are lots of other things in the signal chain that are limiting us...

Back to recording from my hat...

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2007, 05:42:31 PM »
<<< just go record >>>

:lol:  Yep, good advice there.  Though if I could just record when I wanted, I'd probably skip my time at ts.com and spend it recording.  But I can be at work and check ts.com, even when I can't sneak away to do some recording. ;) 

For now anyway -- just got a notice that our firm is starting the process of blocking sites that are not appropriate to our business function.  Sure hope that doesn't mean ts.com is going bye-bye. :o
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2007, 05:43:39 PM »
the best equipment (mytek, benchmark, etc) is in the 112-120 dB range

They rate the SNR, that is, what is the ratio of converter noise to the maximum input (0dB FS).  The highest ones are, what, 108dB?  That is something like 18 bits, right?

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2007, 01:52:16 AM »
  I'm just trying to dispell some myths out there.  Everyone thinks more bits/higher sampling rate/etc are better, when in reality there are lots of other things in the signal chain that are limiting us...

Limiting factors, in the order of typical importance

- listening room noise floor
- listening room acoustics
- reproduction system (speakers)
- microphone self noise
- recorder mic preamplifier noise
- human hearing capabilities
- 16/44.1k recording limitations
- digital edit system rounding errors
- 24/96k recording limitations

Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #47 on: September 06, 2007, 02:41:17 AM »
  I'm just trying to dispell some myths out there.  Everyone thinks more bits/higher sampling rate/etc are better, when in reality there are lots of other things in the signal chain that are limiting us...

Limiting factors, in the order of typical importance

- listening room noise floor
- listening room acoustics
- reproduction system (speakers)
- microphone self noise
- recorder mic preamplifier noise
- human hearing capabilities
- 16/44.1k recording limitations
- digital edit system rounding errors
- 24/96k recording limitations

I pretty much agree with the order.  But of all those things, which do we have control over???  Bit depth and sampling rate.  Therefore, the most easily manipulated in the list are the ones we want to attack first.  And if we do not get depth and samplig rate right the rest of the list will matter little as even the best of venues would not be captured well and the playback gear can only play back what it is fed.  And that is why I am grateful to have 24/48 and 24/96 as options.

I have a good playback system so that is well taken care of, good mics and recording hardware and failing hearing.  I am not sure hearing aids would be any more helpful than just cranking up the stereo.  And face it, if you read any of the old Stones record liners you remember the two things they said, "Play It Loud" or "Turn It Up."  Right, Mick.

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edited: typo
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 10:25:09 PM by boojum »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2007, 03:37:25 PM »
just because your hearing is failing doesnt mean that you shouldnt be making the best recordings you can. Your dog's gotta listen to it too!

  I'm just trying to dispell some myths out there.  Everyone thinks more bits/higher sampling rate/etc are better, when in reality there are lots of other things in the signal chain that are limiting us...

Limiting factors, in the order of typical importance

- listening room noise floor
- listening room acoustics
- reproduction system (speakers)
- microphone self noise
- recorder mic preamplifier noise
- human hearing capabilities
- 16/44.1k recording limitations
- digital edit system rounding errors
- 24/96k recording limitations

I pretty much agree with the order.  But of all those things, which do we have control over???  Bit depth and sampling rate.  Therefore, the most easily manipulated in the list are the ones we want to attack first.  And if we do not get depth and samplig rate right the rest of the list will matter little as even the best of venues would not be captured well and the playback gear can only play back what it is fed.  And that is why I am grateful to have 24/48 and 24/96 as options.

I have a good playback system so that is well taken care of, good mics and recording hardware and failing hearing.  I am not sure hearing aids would be any more helpful than just cranking up the stereo.  And face it, if you read and of the old Stones record liners you remember the two things they said, "Play It Loud" or "Turn It Up."  Right, Mick.

L8R
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2007, 04:49:14 PM »
Perhaps I should have read my post again a little more carefully.  I understand that the bit depth really only relates to dynamic range, and should have probably used 16/44.1 vs. 24/96, not just 16 vs. 24 bit.  I have a reasonable understanding of the Nyquist concept, so assuming that 48K is going to reasonably cover anything that we can possibly hear, is there any real reason to record in 24/96 vs. 24/48?  Are there more data points on that analog waveform at one vs. the other, in the range that we can hear, or are all the rest of the data points outside of human hearing and/or playback capability range, understanding that there are vast differences in playback systems?
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Offline live2496

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #50 on: September 06, 2007, 09:49:08 PM »
I have a reasonable understanding of the Nyquist concept, so assuming that 48K is going to reasonably cover anything that we can possibly hear, is there any real reason to record in 24/96 vs. 24/48?

Maybe.

There are some designers that design audio circuits capable of recording ruler flat up to 100kHz. Rupert Neve is one of them. Why? Well, be believes that even though we can't hear beyond 20kHz, ultra high frequencies have some affect upon our perception of other sounds. He also cites that one researcher in Japan has discovered that our brains don't like bandwidth to be limited at 20kHz. Let the reader decide.

Have a listen to a recent interview from March 2007...
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/videos-podcasts-interviews-newsflashes-subcribe-so-you-dont-miss-out/115552-rupert-neve-interview-march-19th-2007-a.html

Here's a transcript from 2002...
http://www.prosoundweb.com/chat_psw/transcripts/rupert.php

I believe that there is a distinct benefit in recording 24-bit vs 16-bits. And most of us leave enough headroom when recording so that 16-bit quantization might lose some of the detail available from the preamp.

About the claims that Rupert is making. It certainly is an interesting theory. I must say that I lean toward believing him more than not. Some of my customers record whales, birds and other wildlife. So, I'm certainly very supportive of recording at up to 96kHz and beyond anyway.

To answer your question... I guess it depends upon your playback system, or in what you plan on doing with your audio recordings in the future.




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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2007, 03:42:37 AM »
The audio waveform, be it pressure or voltage fluctuations, consist only of varying frequences. Smaller details = higher frequences. As there is a limit of what we can hear, there is no point in recording (and trying to reproduce, which is another matter) those frequences. There is nothing else to this, no hidden detail or such, it is just waves.

Sample rate determines the frequency range (detail), bit depth the dynamic range. Very simple to understand.

Aural capabilities of us humans have been studied for hundreds of years and the upper limit has been fixed to around 20kHz, only now, that cheap recorders capable of more are available, people start to hear things. Is it a scientific fact or just a rationalization for new toys? I vote for the later. These are hard times for hi-fi tweaking, recording systems and media are almost perfect, cannot tune turntables and cartritges anymore, now it is to braiding silver cables... (when loudspeakers and room acoustics are the weak point of amost every system, I guess soldering crossovers and glueing boxes & acoustic treatments is not sexy enough).

Still, using 96 kHz does no absolutelly harm. Just the reasons should be rational.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2007, 12:17:03 PM »
Haven't looked for the link yet, but I remember an article posted here at some point suggesting the advantage of > 48 kHz sample rates lies not in revealing higher frequencies but better time coherency.  If I recall, the gist of it was the human ears and brain are very precise at distinguishing very small time differences.  The greater time precision of higher sample rates provides better time coherence to the listener.  Or something like that.
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Offline nihilistic0

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #53 on: September 08, 2007, 01:00:02 AM »
hmm, and I think I recall reading somewhere about if 2 identical sounds are played in succession within say 2ms of eachother, that we cannot distinguish any pause between them or some shit

in short, our hearing has limitations, similar to how much detail the eye can resolve

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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #54 on: September 08, 2007, 02:56:03 AM »
Those time coherence things might refer to the effects of the low cut filters needed before and after the AD/DA conversions. It is not possible or easy to design a brickwall filter which does not have some time domain effects on the signals just below the cut-off frequency. With 44.1 systems there might, just might, be some anomalies in the 19+ kHz area, specially with old/cheap systems. With 48 and 96 those effects move up past any possibility of us hearing them.

Still, good 16/44.1 classical CDs sound truly amazing... Even played loud, around 110 dB in peaks, there is no backround hiss (it is masked even by low room noise).

Offline Nicola Fankhauser

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #55 on: September 08, 2007, 07:17:29 AM »
hmm, and I think I recall reading somewhere about if 2 identical sounds are played in succession within say 2ms of eachother, that we cannot distinguish any pause between them or some shit

what the original poster might have tried to say is: if time consistency / resolution between (stereo) channels is below a certain level, the human brain detects very soon anomalies, since the room image it tries to build gets too little and (even worse) conflicting data. mp3 for example has very sloppy attack envelopes (try hi-hats or castagnettes, cembalo etc.) and coherence between channels in general which makes you feel tired listening to even high bitrate lossy compressed music.

all in all I think this argument is solid when advocating higher sampling rates - but it is not directly related to frequency range, but timing resolution.

regards
nicola

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #56 on: September 08, 2007, 03:14:01 PM »
I am still not sure that I got a direct answer to what I was trying to ask, so I will try asking another way.  Assuming that we are recording in 24 bit, and assuming that we are just recording a single guitar, all of the frequencies of which are well within the 20-20K range, if we are recording at a 96K sample rate, will there be more data points representing the guitar, within our audible range, than if we were recording at 48K, or is all of the other additional data made up of other points above and below the audible range?  I am just trying to discern whether we are truly getting more data points on the audible portion of the waveform, than just recording a lot of additional inaudible data at higher and lower frequencies.
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Offline Nicola Fankhauser

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2007, 05:27:00 PM »
I am still not sure that I got a direct answer to what I was trying to ask, so I will try asking another way.  Assuming that we are recording in 24 bit, and assuming that we are just recording a single guitar, all of the frequencies of which are well within the 20-20K range, if we are recording at a 96K sample rate, will there be more data points representing the guitar, within our audible range, than if we were recording at 48K, or is all of the other additional data made up of other points above and below the audible range?  I am just trying to discern whether we are truly getting more data points on the audible portion of the waveform, than just recording a lot of additional inaudible data at higher and lower frequencies.

a very difficult question. however I think you can say (theoretically) you'll get more available dynamics (since it has 24 bit resolution) and better stereo image (because of the 96'000 samples per second).

regards
nicola

Offline gratefulphish

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2007, 06:55:03 PM »
I am still not sure that I got a direct answer to what I was trying to ask, so I will try asking another way.  Assuming that we are recording in 24 bit, and assuming that we are just recording a single guitar, all of the frequencies of which are well within the 20-20K range, if we are recording at a 96K sample rate, will there be more data points representing the guitar, within our audible range, than if we were recording at 48K, or is all of the other additional data made up of other points above and below the audible range?  I am just trying to discern whether we are truly getting more data points on the audible portion of the waveform, than just recording a lot of additional inaudible data at higher and lower frequencies.

a very difficult question. however I think you can say (theoretically) you'll get more available dynamics (since it has 24 bit resolution) and better stereo image (because of the 96'000 samples per second).

regards
nicola

This should be a straightforward scientific/mathematical answer, IMVHO.  It is the crux of the question to which I have been trying to get an answer.  There have to be either more, less or the same number of points, sample wise, to describe the same exact musical note.  I am just trying to determine, one way or the other, whether or not we are really getting more data, within the audible realm, as opposed to adding additional data above and below that range.
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Offline live2496

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2007, 08:40:26 PM »
I am still not sure that I got a direct answer to what I was trying to ask, so I will try asking another way.  Assuming that we are recording in 24 bit, and assuming that we are just recording a single guitar, all of the frequencies of which are well within the 20-20K range, if we are recording at a 96K sample rate, will there be more data points representing the guitar, within our audible range, than if we were recording at 48K, or is all of the other additional data made up of other points above and below the audible range?  I am just trying to discern whether we are truly getting more data points on the audible portion of the waveform, than just recording a lot of additional inaudible data at higher and lower frequencies.

Whatever frequencies are present in the audio, all of it is sampled 96000 times per second. Whether it be a wave from a guitar or a hit on the cymbals. The state of the electrical circuit is measured at even intervals and digitized to a number.

Think of graphing a sine wave. Let's pick a frequency of 1000 Hz. That wav undulates 1000 times per second. A 2000 Hz sine wave will have a wavelength that is half the size of 1000. So it goes up and down twice as fast. This makes the peaks closer together. The higher the frequency, the faster the up and down movement occurs on our graph. If a harmonic from a cymbal was present at 20000 Hz, it would be fluctuating on our graph 20 times more often than the 1000 Hz wave.

While I am discussing this, I will mention the limits of sampling at 96000.
Taken to an extreme, a 48000 Hz sine wave would not be able to be graphed correctly by our system. Because it takes at least two sample points to represent the frequency and the sampling is not occurring quickly enough to support this. These frequencies, therefore are filtered by an audio circuit prior to digitizing.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 08:42:08 PM by live2496 »
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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2007, 11:09:31 AM »
Mathemetical answer: higher sampling rate (from 44.1 to 96, say), puts more detail to the wave recorded. All the added detail is at above 22.05 kHz range. It can not be heard by humans. There is NO detail added within the audible range.

Sound wave consists of many frequences mixed together. To accuratelly describe the highest frequency signal component (smallest detail) we need to sample the signal at at least twice that frequency. That frequency can describe all the lower frequences PERFECTLY. If there were some detail that is not perfectly described, it would mean there are some even higer frequences present. But as we can not hear over 20kHz signals there is no practical season to record them.

Using 96kHz sampling us usefull only if the file is much slowed down for effects, and the mic used has usable response to about 40 kHz.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2007, 11:16:46 AM by Petrus »

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #61 on: September 09, 2007, 11:34:04 AM »
I am still not sure that I got a direct answer to what I was trying to ask, so I will try asking another way.  Assuming that we are recording in 24 bit, and assuming that we are just recording a single guitar, all of the frequencies of which are well within the 20-20K range, if we are recording at a 96K sample rate, will there be more data points representing the guitar, within our audible range, than if we were recording at 48K, or is all of the other additional data made up of other points above and below the audible range?  I am just trying to discern whether we are truly getting more data points on the audible portion of the waveform, than just recording a lot of additional inaudible data at higher and lower frequencies.

a very difficult question. however I think you can say (theoretically) you'll get more available dynamics (since it has 24 bit resolution) and better stereo image (because of the 96'000 samples per second).

regards
nicola

This should be a straightforward scientific/mathematical answer, IMVHO.  It is the crux of the question to which I have been trying to get an answer.  There have to be either more, less or the same number of points, sample wise, to describe the same exact musical note.  I am just trying to determine, one way or the other, whether or not we are really getting more data, within the audible realm, as opposed to adding additional data above and below that range.

you are getting more samples per second, and those extra samples don't just sit idly by and unused, even if all the sound is within 20-20k.  so, in that sense, yes, at 96 kHz, relative to 48 or 44.1 kHz, there are more samples being recorded that is defining the music.  that is the "easy" answer to your "easy" question.  However, the real question is whether the analog waveform, recreated from the digital recording, is any different if you record at 48 kHz vs 96 kHz.  in theory, all of the analog frequencies within 20-20k are able to be reproduced with a sampling rate of 48 kHz.  so, at 96 kHz, you are getting more samples to the same music, but are they just redundant?  obvsiouly, lots of people of lots of different opinions, as evidenced by this thread and many others.  As mentioned, there is more than just the frequency response.  there are also the time and spatial aspect of a recording.  it's not just what notes are played, but precisely *when* they are played in time.  it's been said (in other threads, with links to articles on the subject) that the human ear can differentiate between two audible events occuring less than 1/48000th of a second apart.  So, if we record at 48kHz, while that is enough to capture all the audible frequencies, it may not be enough to accurately define the exact moment of when a note is played.  these very minor timing errors can throw off things like soundstage and stereo imaging.  For these reasons, 96 kHz is probably a good idea.   of course, all this is my opinion, based on my own unscientific comparisions (by recording the same band at the same venue again and again and again, etc, etc...)  you should probably do some of your own comparisons and decide for yourself which same rate to record at.

Offline jmz93

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2007, 02:26:59 PM »
I record in 24-bit with my R-09 whether I need the dynamic range or not, because you can hear digital noise if you record in 16-bit.
Try recording say a 1KHZ test tone, 50db or so down at 16 bit, and then
at 24 bit. Boost the volume of both files a lot so you can clearly hear the noise floor and listen to the dfference.

This is also a useful thing to do to actually hear the products of various dithering algorhythms.
Record a test tone 50 or 60 db down in 24-bit, dither to 16 using various methods, saving the results in their own little files.
Boost all of them so the volume is high enough to clearly hear the resulting background noise. 
I recently did this with the various dither options in Sound Forge, and compared them to the PowR3 dithering routine in Sonar 6.21 Producer. 


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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2007, 11:35:32 PM »
I record in 24-bit with my R-09 whether I need the dynamic range or not, because you can hear digital noise if you record in 16-bit.
Try recording say a 1KHZ test tone, 50db or so down at 16 bit, and then
at 24 bit. Boost the volume of both files a lot so you can clearly hear the noise floor and listen to the dfference.

This is also a useful thing to do to actually hear the products of various dithering algorhythms.
Record a test tone 50 or 60 db down in 24-bit, dither to 16 using various methods, saving the results in their own little files.
Boost all of them so the volume is high enough to clearly hear the resulting background noise. 
I recently did this with the various dither options in Sound Forge, and compared them to the PowR3 dithering routine in Sonar 6.21 Producer. 



On Sound Devices website, they have a great example of the diff between 16 and 24-bit. they record just someones voice at say -50db down like you stated, and then add gain until 0db, and there is TONS of noise in the 16-bit example. However, in the 24-bit example, it sounds perfect and there is no audible noise added to the signal. thats why we all record and peak at or around -6db in 24-bit and add the extra few db's of gain in post, because even tho its technically bringing the noise-floor up with the added gain, its so inaudible, that noone in their right mind can hear the noise when adding gain in 24-bit.

Just at allgood 2 months ago, I recorded a set while I was at my campsite, and needed to add +12.5db Gain in post on my 24/48 signal, the end result is fantastic and no noise can be ehard. not even in the ditehred down 16-bit version. I will continue to record 24-bit for the rest of my life(or a HIGHER resolution like DSD). the 24-bit stuff just sounds more true and analogish IMO because of all the points of data when the sound is getting digitized. it doesnt sound 'digital' like 16-bit. its MUCH MORE open and natural IMO.

Now the question for me is, if your end goal is 16-bit for cdr's anyway, is it better to record directly in 16-bit or to record in 24-bit and ditehr down to 16-bit?
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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2007, 02:15:22 AM »
In the examples given above the samples were intentionally recorded at too low a level (-50 dB) then normalized. Of course this brings the noise floor up, at 16 bits really bad, 24 bits not bad at all. If we had 32 bit systems, we could record the sample at -120 dB, normalise it and complain that 24 bit system is unusable...  When using 16 bit system recording voice at -50 dB is a user error, not system fault.

But of course 24 bits has it's benefits and I record everything at 24 bits, only to get that 6-12 dB safety headroom before normalizing and downconverting to 16 bits. There is a real work flow benefit there, which ensures I get maximum 16 bit end quality, why not use it?

Offline Todd R

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2007, 10:40:48 AM »
Now the question for me is, if your end goal is 16-bit for cdr's anyway, is it better to record directly in 16-bit or to record in 24-bit and ditehr down to 16-bit?


Quoting myself from earlier in the thread in answer to your question. :)  Quality of the dither routine used is one reason to record at 24bit.

As people have said, recording at 24bits is better if you want to do any post-processing.  But another reason to record at 24bits rather than at 16bits even if you will be dithering to 16bits is the quality of the dithering available to you in your field recording equipment.  At this point, much of the available ICs used internally in our recorders/ADs will be 24bit.  To record at 16bits, the recorder will need to dither down the 24bit data to 16bit data. 

The quality of these dither routines varies, and different equipment mfgs and software vendors use different routines -- Sony's SBM process, Apogee's UVHR process, Grace's ANSR method, etc.  The quality of say the UA-5's on-board dither process might not be as good (or as good sounding to any particular individual's ears) as a dither process available via s/w.  Wavelab in particular has licensed Apogee's UVHR dither process, so dithering from 24>16 in post using Wavelab might sound noticably better than whatever dither routine your AD or recorder uses.
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Offline SparkE!

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2007, 05:33:34 PM »
Mathemetical answer: higher sampling rate (from 44.1 to 96, say), puts more detail to the wave recorded. All the added detail is at above 22.05 kHz range. It can not be heard by humans. There is NO detail added within the audible range.

Sound wave consists of many frequences mixed together. To accuratelly describe the highest frequency signal component (smallest detail) we need to sample the signal at at least twice that frequency. That frequency can describe all the lower frequences PERFECTLY. If there were some detail that is not perfectly described, it would mean there are some even higer frequences present. But as we can not hear over 20kHz signals there is no practical season to record them.

Using 96kHz sampling us usefull only if the file is much slowed down for effects, and the mic used has usable response to about 40 kHz.

You are leaving out some important details.  Nyquist's theory covers signals that have been bandlimited to half of the sampling frequency.  For such signals, sampled at a rate that is at least twice the highest frequency contained in signals, it is possible to reproduce those signals exactly within the limits of the resolution of the sampling circuits (that is the resolution of the A/D used).  However, we don't have a perfectly bandlimited signal with no components above 22.05 kHz.  Components above that frequency are actually aliased back into the audible band when you sample at 44.1 kHz.  For example a signal at 34.1 kHz will play back at 10 kHz if you use a 44.1 kHz sampling rate.  So you need two things in order for your analysis to be correct:

1) You need to record only signals whose frequency content is strictly limited to frequencies less than 22.05 kHz.
2) In order to be able to exactly reproduce the original waveform, you must use Nyquist filters both for bandlimiting the original signal and to smooth the digitized signal on playback.  Nyquist filters are a mathematical fiction that can only be approximated in the real world.  In general, their 3 dB point occurs at 1/2 the sampling frequency and their response is symmetric about that point through a transition band of a specified width.  The most commonly discussed Nyquist filter is the so-called "brick wall" filter that passes all frequencies below 1/2 the sampling rate and absolutely nothing above 1/2 the sampling rate. Everyone knows that brick wall filters are not physically realizable.  The other type that can be more easily approximated in the real world is the so-called "raised cosine" lowpass filter where the transfer function looks essentially like half a cycle of a cosine wave that has been shifted upwards by its peak value.  In the real world, the stopband never goes completely to zero, nor is the stopband response symmetric about its 3 dB point.

Nyquist theory is helpful for helping to understand how fast we have to sample in order to get good results, but it doesn't tell the whole story because it relies on math that doesn't translate well into the real world.  If you don't believe me.  Try recording a 34.1 kHz tone at 44.1 kHz sampling rate and tell me that it doesn't sound EXACTLY like 10 kHz when you play back the recording.
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Offline datbrad

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2007, 05:42:28 PM »
Been following this thread, and want to point out a couple of things. First, absolutely, mastering in 24 bit will allow far more freedom from having to ride the level controls to run as close to 0 as possible during capture, allowing for lower levels that can be boosted in post without introducing noise. However, a 16 bit recording with optimized levels will not sound much different than a 16 bit product produced from a 24 bit master using the same front end (mics>pre). The reason that UV22 and SBM sound better than straight 16 bit A/D is precisely the fact that they quantitize at 24 bits, and then use a noise shaping filter to remove the digital noise that the very act of quantitization creates. This makes the actual perceived dynamic range to approach 18-19 bit depth to the listener.

The dynamic range of a rock show through a PA is about 40db, and a jazz show, maybe 60db. Watch your levels during a show. Do they sweep constantly from far below -12 up to -2db? I have rarely seen that, except for a single acoustic instrument recorded in a pin drop quite setting. So, if your levels range from -12 during the quite portions, and hit-2 during the loud portions, that's only 10db of dynamic range.

Using the example of the average listening space, cars driving by, lawn mowers, dogs barking and/or kids playing outside, and HVAC systems inside, it's hard to imagine the average Joe sitting in an acoustically dead lab setting listening for differences in dynamic range between 24 and 16 bit. To me, the real advantage of 24 bit is the ability to simply not be as concerned with managing the recorder in the field to optimize levels. I am not saying you don't have to be a "good" a recordist with 24 bit, but you definately do not have to be as good at setting and controling gain live as you do with 16 bit.

Sampling is another very misunderstood thing. Regardless if it's PCM or DSD, digital samples are taken 2 per frequency per second, one for the left channel and one for the right. It goes back to basic electronic theory of hertz measurement of cycles. 48khz takes 2 samples of each frequency per second from DC all the way up to 24khz, at which point the anti alaising filter cuts off the analog input. 96khz takes the same 2 samples per frequency per second from DC all the way up to 48khz, far beyond the ability for 99% of capture or playback systems to reproduce, and no human can hear. There are more "points", but these are not compressed into the same audible range, as with the difference between standard and high def video which has more actual lines of resolution within the same screen area.

DSD does the same thing, but takes 2 samples per frequency per second into the 2.8ghz range, using 1 bit per sample, and because the samples from DC to 24khz are represented with less bit depth than PCM, results in the industry having mixed opinions as to the advantages of DSD, and why PCM was not replaced by DSD outright, which would have happened if the opinions were not mixed.

The reason that any higher sampling frequencies above 44.1 sound better at the capture point is due to analog filters to prevent crossing the Nylquist Frequency. To prevent a signal higher than 22.05 khz from hitting the A/D, a filter starts to act on the signal at 20khz, because there is no such thing as a perfect brick wall high pass filter, and it needs 2khz of roll off to kill the input by 22.05 khz. This roll off starting at 20khz is audibly noticable. Recording at 48khz eases the task of the filter, as it does not kick in until 22 khz to roll off to full attenuation by 24 khz. Recording at 48khz or higher, and resampling in post does not have the same impact as the filtering is digital, so the theoretical upper frequncy reproduction limit of 44.1 can be achieved, which is 22.05Khz.

So, I would answer these questions this way:

Is 24 bit better than 16 bit? Well, it depends on the source, recording environment, capture front end, and how much attention you want to spend riding the gain controls of your recorder.

Are samples from 48khz and above better than 44.1 at capture? Yes, but above 48khz is probably unecessary, but does no harm other than taking up more storage space.

Remember, digital recording is 2 samples per frequency per second, with PCM using more bits per sample to represent dynamic range and that is all. Master at 24 bit 48khz or above, use Wavelab UV22 to dither to 16/44.1, and that will sound better than a 16/44.1 master. Or, use an AD1000 or MiniMe, or SBM in the field at 48khz and optimize your levels correctly, and you will end up with the same result.

Sorry about the lengthy post!
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Offline illconditioned

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2007, 06:13:42 PM »
Mathemetical answer: higher sampling rate (from 44.1 to 96, say), puts more detail to the wave recorded. All the added detail is at above 22.05 kHz range. It can not be heard by humans. There is NO detail added within the audible range.

Sound wave consists of many frequences mixed together. To accuratelly describe the highest frequency signal component (smallest detail) we need to sample the signal at at least twice that frequency. That frequency can describe all the lower frequences PERFECTLY. If there were some detail that is not perfectly described, it would mean there are some even higer frequences present. But as we can not hear over 20kHz signals there is no practical season to record them.

Using 96kHz sampling us usefull only if the file is much slowed down for effects, and the mic used has usable response to about 40 kHz.

You are leaving out some important details.  Nyquist's theory covers signals that have been bandlimited to half of the sampling frequency.  For such signals, sampled at a rate that is at least twice the highest frequency contained in signals, it is possible to reproduce those signals exactly within the limits of the resolution of the sampling circuits (that is the resolution of the A/D used).  However, we don't have a perfectly bandlimited signal with no components above 22.05 kHz.  Components above that frequency are actually aliased back into the audible band when you sample at 44.1 kHz.  For example a signal at 34.1 kHz will play back at 10 kHz if you use a 44.1 kHz sampling rate.  So you need two things in order for your analysis to be correct:

1) You need to record only signals whose frequency content is strictly limited to frequencies less than 22.05 kHz.
2) In order to be able to exactly reproduce the original waveform, you must use Nyquist filters both for bandlimiting the original signal and to smooth the digitized signal on playback.  Nyquist filters are a mathematical fiction that can only be approximated in the real world.  In general, their 3 dB point occurs at 1/2 the sampling frequency and their response is symmetric about that point through a transition band of a specified width.  The most commonly discussed Nyquist filter is the so-called "brick wall" filter that passes all frequencies below 1/2 the sampling rate and absolutely nothing above 1/2 the sampling rate. Everyone knows that brick wall filters are not physically realizable.  The other type that can be more easily approximated in the real world is the so-called "raised cosine" lowpass filter where the transfer function looks essentially like half a cycle of a cosine wave that has been shifted upwards by its peak value.  In the real world, the stopband never goes completely to zero, nor is the stopband response symmetric about its 3 dB point.

Nyquist theory is helpful for helping to understand how fast we have to sample in order to get good results, but it doesn't tell the whole story because it relies on math that doesn't translate well into the real world.  If you don't believe me.  Try recording a 34.1 kHz tone at 44.1 kHz sampling rate and tell me that it doesn't sound EXACTLY like 10 kHz when you play back the recording.

Have you tried "recording a 34.1kHz" tone?  I havne't done this, but I would *hope* there is a lowpass filter somewhere in my recorder.  Can you confirm or deny this?

  Richard
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #69 on: September 10, 2007, 06:28:47 PM »
1011100001110011110000110101010101100011110010101011010111101010100101101

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #70 on: September 10, 2007, 07:31:38 PM »
Mathemetical answer: higher sampling rate (from 44.1 to 96, say), puts more detail to the wave recorded. All the added detail is at above 22.05 kHz range. It can not be heard by humans. There is NO detail added within the audible range.

Sound wave consists of many frequences mixed together. To accuratelly describe the highest frequency signal component (smallest detail) we need to sample the signal at at least twice that frequency. That frequency can describe all the lower frequences PERFECTLY. If there were some detail that is not perfectly described, it would mean there are some even higer frequences present. But as we can not hear over 20kHz signals there is no practical season to record them.

Using 96kHz sampling us usefull only if the file is much slowed down for effects, and the mic used has usable response to about 40 kHz.

You are leaving out some important details.  Nyquist's theory covers signals that have been bandlimited to half of the sampling frequency.  For such signals, sampled at a rate that is at least twice the highest frequency contained in signals, it is possible to reproduce those signals exactly within the limits of the resolution of the sampling circuits (that is the resolution of the A/D used).  However, we don't have a perfectly bandlimited signal with no components above 22.05 kHz.  Components above that frequency are actually aliased back into the audible band when you sample at 44.1 kHz.  For example a signal at 34.1 kHz will play back at 10 kHz if you use a 44.1 kHz sampling rate.  So you need two things in order for your analysis to be correct:

1) You need to record only signals whose frequency content is strictly limited to frequencies less than 22.05 kHz.
2) In order to be able to exactly reproduce the original waveform, you must use Nyquist filters both for bandlimiting the original signal and to smooth the digitized signal on playback.  Nyquist filters are a mathematical fiction that can only be approximated in the real world.  In general, their 3 dB point occurs at 1/2 the sampling frequency and their response is symmetric about that point through a transition band of a specified width.  The most commonly discussed Nyquist filter is the so-called "brick wall" filter that passes all frequencies below 1/2 the sampling rate and absolutely nothing above 1/2 the sampling rate. Everyone knows that brick wall filters are not physically realizable.  The other type that can be more easily approximated in the real world is the so-called "raised cosine" lowpass filter where the transfer function looks essentially like half a cycle of a cosine wave that has been shifted upwards by its peak value.  In the real world, the stopband never goes completely to zero, nor is the stopband response symmetric about its 3 dB point.

Nyquist theory is helpful for helping to understand how fast we have to sample in order to get good results, but it doesn't tell the whole story because it relies on math that doesn't translate well into the real world.  If you don't believe me.  Try recording a 34.1 kHz tone at 44.1 kHz sampling rate and tell me that it doesn't sound EXACTLY like 10 kHz when you play back the recording.

Have you tried "recording a 34.1kHz" tone?  I havne't done this, but I would *hope* there is a lowpass filter somewhere in my recorder.  Can you confirm or deny this?

  Richard

Most recorders at least make a token attempt at a lowpass filter ahead of their A/D, but most are not adequate in my opinion.  In fact, the ones that have adjustable sample rates usually use the same filter, regardless of selected sample rate.  :o  That's messed up, in my opinion.   Seriously, though.  Try recording a 34 kHz tone at 44.1 kHz sample rate.  What you'll get is a 10 kHz tone that has probably been reduced in amplitude a little bit by the lowpass filter in your recorder.
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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2007, 05:31:14 AM »
Here is a good (and long) series of articles sensibly discussing the merits of 24/96 digital:

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/taking_stock/P0/

The bottom line, more or less, is, that 24/96 is better than the analog part of the recording chain, and even 16/44.1 is better that the acoustic part of the recording/listening chain.

And another long one: http://www.moultonlabs.com/weblog/more/24_bits_can_you_hear

Many thoughts about A/B double blind testing etc...
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 06:27:57 AM by Petrus »

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2007, 09:44:23 PM »
the Zoom H2 records up to
44.1kHz 16 and 24 bit
48kHz 16 bit and 24 bit
96kHz 16  and 24

so is 96kHz even needed??? would it be higher quality than doing a 48kHz 24 bit recording???

all this talk is getting a little confusing for a new taper  like me....is there a simple explanation for these recording levels listed abpve??

thank's,
tim
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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2007, 05:13:10 AM »

so is 96kHz even needed??? would it be higher quality than doing a 48kHz 24 bit recording???


In theory, yes, but as the microphones and loudspeakers and headphones do not reach past 20kHz, trying to record frequences up to 44+ Khz make no difference in the final product. And even if they could reproduce those frequences at over 20 kHz we humans could not hear them. So it is a total waste of space.

Offline Arni99

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2007, 07:13:05 AM »

so is 96kHz even needed??? would it be higher quality than doing a 48kHz 24 bit recording???


In theory, yes, but as the microphones and loudspeakers and headphones do not reach past 20kHz, trying to record frequences up to 44+ Khz make no difference in the final product. And even if they could reproduce those frequences at over 20 kHz we humans could not hear them. So it is a total waste of space.
No,
you mix up 2 different things:
96KHz in terms of recording-quality refers to 96.000 samples per second each at 24bit(or 16bit) resolution and not the mic-frequency of 96KHz.
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2007, 08:15:43 AM »
Well, in theory with a 96 kHz samples per second recording you get 96/2 = 48000 Hz upper frequency limit, in practice with the pre AD brickwall filters about 45 kHz upper limit. But, like I tried to point out, as practically all microphones, ALL reproducers and ALL HUMANS cut off at around 20000 Hz at the latest, there is no use, point, need nor any sense trying to record something that does not even enter the recording chain. And if it enters, does not get out. And, if by some freak phenomenon, would get out, only bats would hear it.

There is no additional benefits to recording at 96 kHz sampling rate exept higher cut off limit. It does not reveal any "hidden detail" or "unveil" the sound. Just that also the frequences we can not hear can be recorded (if the mic were good enough, and it is not).

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2007, 08:38:29 AM »
all true....

but when all is said and done...a *carefully* recorded 16bit capture will always be very, very satisfying to the ear.
still....., headroom is an excellent thing to have.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2007, 09:03:39 AM »
24 bits give usable headroom and safety margin, 96 Kz sampling adds only 100% to the file size.

24/96 has higher quality than the analog window (what we can get to the recorder), no need for that (96 Hz sampling, that is)
16/44.1 gives better quality than the acoustic window (noise floors, practical dynamic range, loudspeakers & amps, hearing limits)

It is the acoustic window which defines total fidelity, not even 16/44.1 recording done carefully (or downsampled from slightly careless 24/44.1).

nuf said.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2007, 10:50:04 AM »
nuf said.

actually, not really.  As has been mentioned earlier in this thread (by myself and others), there are other potential benefits for recording at 96 kHz regardless of the frequency response.  the higher sampling rate allows the recording to better capture timing and spacial information, because we can hear different sounds less than 1/48000th of a second apart.  96kHz allows the recording to more accurately define exactly when a sound occurs, which can produce a more realistic and accurate soundstage.

so, while I agree with Petrus that there is no need to record sound up to 45 kHz, as that is way beyond anything we could ever hear (or anything our microphones could ever capture), there is more to the story and other reasons why one might choose to record at 96 kHz.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2007, 11:35:52 AM »
Greater dynamic range and higher resolution are two ways of saying the same thing.
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2007, 01:19:49 PM »
so if we can only hear up 45kHz. Why do they even offer these settings? For more clarity and headroom ??whats does "headroom" and "brickwall" mean in recording terms?

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2007, 02:10:34 PM »
hi

so if we can only hear up 45kHz. Why do they even offer these settings? For more clarity and headroom ??whats does "headroom" and "brickwall" mean in recording terms?

please search in the forums for the terms "headroom" and "brickwall", and re-read this whole thread to get an understanding of the issues at hand...

regards
nicola

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2007, 02:35:12 PM »
searched for "brickwall" "headroom" no answers just people using the term....unless I'm just not understanding the context in which it's being used...

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2007, 02:43:40 PM »
There is also an issue of transients - the first strike of a string or drum. Higher frequencies allow us to capture transients more accurately.

I'm also not a fan of running the AD conservatively for 24 bit recording. SNR numbers for amplifiers are almost always given at or near maximum gain because that's where the amp performance is best. Less gain = lower SNR in the analog stages. Running the AD at anything less than full scale is also sub-optimum, less bits = higher quantization noise power.

BTW - quantization noise is also random, highly uncorrelated with the input signal.

Brickwall is pretty straight forward - it happens when you exceed the rail to rail voltage on internal stages of the amplifier. The resulting output signal is clipped. Headroom is a little more nebulous and can mean a lot of things. In the analog realm it could just mean that you increased the rail voltage on an internal stage and now you can handle a hotter signal. In the digital sense it could mean that you have 24 bits available and realizing you will only keep 16 bits of resolution in the end you can justify running conservatively not worrying about running the AD at full scale.
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2007, 03:07:28 PM »
Fast transients are also nothing more than high frequency components of the audio signal. If the component is more than 20kHz we can not notice it and that's it. Higher frequencies CAN NOT be hidden in "transients" or  "timing or spatial" information. They do not exist to human ears.

Headroom means the extra leeway we get with 24 bits, no need to record as "hot" to avoid hiss, if sudden peak appears in the signal the headroom can absorb it without clipping. An analogy: you have a 3 gallon (16 bit) bucket with water running into it at steady flow and water running out at same speed keeping it at 2 gallon level. You can not splosh 2 gallons in there without the bucket runnung over. With a 6 gallon (24 bit) bucket you can have that same 2 gallons there, but add suddenly that 2 gallons without spilling anything...

Brickwall filter means a very steep lowpass filter, which is needed to prevent high frequences reaching the A/D converter in digital systems (a 44.1 kHz sound signal that would reach the 44.1 kHz converter would spell disaster) . Brickwall, because we want also quite high frequences there (max half the sampling rate), but absolutelly nothing at or near the sampling frequency. So the frequences get higher and higher, and at certain point hit the wall... Same thing happens after D/A conversion; the signal is full of high frequency artefacts, we need to smooth out the waveform back to what it was before sending it to the A/D. So we brickwall filter everything above 20 kHz out of the signal to make the staircase look like a wave...

And the high limit of hearing for young persons is 20000 Hz (20 kHz), the lower limit is more vaque, depening on the loudness level it is somewhere between 8 and 20 Hz. Also the lowest sounds are also felt, not only heard.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2007, 03:23:28 PM »
perfect thank you very much Petrus.....
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2007, 03:59:48 PM »
Higher frequencies CAN NOT be hidden in "transients" or  "timing or spatial" information. They do not exist to human ears.

we're not saying that the higher sampling rates are needed to capture frequencies BEYOND human hearing.  we are in agreement there.  but you simply cannot deny that *when* a note is played is as important as *what* note is played.  if it didn't matter when the drummer hit the drums or when the guitar player struck a chord, then music wouldn't exist as we know it.  the higher sampling rate better defines *when* a musical note occurs.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #87 on: September 12, 2007, 05:18:25 PM »
Higher frequencies CAN NOT be hidden in "transients" or  "timing or spatial" information. They do not exist to human ears.

we're not saying that the higher sampling rates are needed to capture frequencies BEYOND human hearing.  we are in agreement there.  but you simply cannot deny that *when* a note is played is as important as *what* note is played.  if it didn't matter when the drummer hit the drums or when the guitar player struck a chord, then music wouldn't exist as we know it.  the higher sampling rate better defines *when* a musical note occurs.

JS - assuming that you are correct, can this information be dithered down to 16/44.1???  If it cannot the point is moot.   8)
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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #88 on: September 12, 2007, 05:29:33 PM »
Higher frequencies CAN NOT be hidden in "transients" or  "timing or spatial" information. They do not exist to human ears.

we're not saying that the higher sampling rates are needed to capture frequencies BEYOND human hearing.  we are in agreement there.  but you simply cannot deny that *when* a note is played is as important as *what* note is played.  if it didn't matter when the drummer hit the drums or when the guitar player struck a chord, then music wouldn't exist as we know it.  the higher sampling rate better defines *when* a musical note occurs.

JS - assuming that you are correct, can this information be dithered down to 16/44.1???  If it cannot the point is moot.   8)

yeah, I guess this whole thread is about 24 bit > 16 bit, and not just the benefits of 24 bit / 96 kHz recording in general.
the idea is that we can hear time differences less than 1/48000th (or 1/44100th) of a second.  so, by definition, a 44.1 kHz recording will not be able to define exactly when a note occurs as accurately as a 96kHz recording.  I'll be honest that I don't know all the technical ins and outs of this, but I'd guess that there's no way to bring that time accuracy back down to 44.1kHz.

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #89 on: September 12, 2007, 05:58:20 PM »
Higher frequencies CAN NOT be hidden in "transients" or  "timing or spatial" information. They do not exist to human ears.

we're not saying that the higher sampling rates are needed to capture frequencies BEYOND human hearing.  we are in agreement there.  but you simply cannot deny that *when* a note is played is as important as *what* note is played.  if it didn't matter when the drummer hit the drums or when the guitar player struck a chord, then music wouldn't exist as we know it.  the higher sampling rate better defines *when* a musical note occurs.

JS - assuming that you are correct, can this information be dithered down to 16/44.1???  If it cannot the point is moot.   8)

yeah, I guess this whole thread is about 24 bit > 16 bit, and not just the benefits of 24 bit / 96 kHz recording in general.
the idea is that we can hear time differences less than 1/48000th (or 1/44100th) of a second.  so, by definition, a 44.1 kHz recording will not be able to define exactly when a note occurs as accurately as a 96kHz recording.  I'll be honest that I don't know all the technical ins and outs of this, but I'd guess that there's no way to bring that time accuracy back down to 44.1kHz.

JS - I was having similar thoughts about using 16/44 sources to matrix with - just how close can I align them?

It would seem that higher sample rates would allow finer grain control of time alingment...

sorry to contribute to the hijack... :-X

Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #90 on: September 12, 2007, 07:10:02 PM »
I am going back to my earlier statement that I am not sure whether Ohm's Law or the Nyquist Theorem is less understood and more discussed.  We can really hold forth on these two.  I just record at 24/48 and let it go at that.  Since I will soon have the option to do it in FLAC.  I suppose that 24/96 would use about the same amount of space as 24/48 in WAV.  But unless there is a strong technical reason to do so, I will probably stay with 24/48.    As usual, YMMV.     8)
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Offline SparkE!

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #91 on: September 12, 2007, 11:48:57 PM »
Well, in theory with a 96 kHz samples per second recording you get 96/2 = 48000 Hz upper frequency limit, in practice with the pre AD brickwall filters about 45 kHz upper limit. But, like I tried to point out, as practically all microphones, ALL reproducers and ALL HUMANS cut off at around 20000 Hz at the latest, there is no use, point, need nor any sense trying to record something that does not even enter the recording chain. And if it enters, does not get out. And, if by some freak phenomenon, would get out, only bats would hear it.

There is no additional benefits to recording at 96 kHz sampling rate exept higher cut off limit. It does not reveal any "hidden detail" or "unveil" the sound. Just that also the frequences we can not hear can be recorded (if the mic were good enough, and it is not).

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Dang it, Petrus! There is no such thing as a brickwall filter.  You're right that you want everything below 48 kHz and nothing above 48 kHz when recording at a 96 kHz sample rate, at least from a purely theoretical, mathematical point of view.  It's not possible in practice.  And people don't use a 45 kHz cutoff frequency either.  If you did that, you wouldn't be even close to being attenuated sufficiently at 48 kHz.  How many poles do you think people use in a typical anti-aliasing filter?  You only get about 6 dB per octave per pole as a rule of thumb.  Using that approximation, you'd only get about 1/2 dB per pole at 48 kHz with a 45 kHz cutoff frequency and that's just the Bode approximation.  In practice, you won't even get that much.  In order to get any appreciable attenuation at 48 kHz from your anti-aliasing filter, you have to use a much lower cutoff frequency.

Let me put this in perspective.  It's hard to get components whose tolerances will allow you to use well designed filters with more than about 8 poles in them when using typical opamp, resistor and capacitor-based filters.  With a 20 kHz cutoff frequency and a .1 dB Chebyshev design, I recall that you can only expect about 100 dB of attenuation clear out at 96 kHz.  At 48 kHz, I don't remember the exact numbers, but it's more like 55 dB of attenuation and you need to be happy with it because that's about the best you can do.

Now that means that you get about 55 dB of attenuation at fs/2 when you use fs=96kHz.  That helps a lot.  If you use the same filter, but a fs of 48 kHz, you only get a few dB of attenuation at fs/2.  That's the true benefit of using the higher sampling frequency.

On the other hand, I still agree with your assertion that you don't gain much by using the higher sample rate and you damn sure use twice the memory to record the same signal when you double the sampling rate.  What it comes down to is our ability to perceive the improvement in recording quality by using the higher sample rate.  Most people can't tell the difference.

I'm glad that you're on here preaching the virtues of recording at reasonable sample rates, but please don't justify your opinions with technical misinformation.  Seriously, I appreciate that you're preaching common sense recording practices.  Just please, be more careful to use real facts to justify your advice.
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Offline echo1434

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2007, 12:26:22 AM »
Just my view...

Regardless of noise floors or whatnot, 24-bit recording is closer to real life. As was already discussed here, 24-bit allows for over 16 million amplitude levels, while 16-bit only allows 65,536 (a 256-fold difference).

Well, real life (as well as analog) has infinite amplitude possibilities. So of course 16 million is a lot closer to infinity than 65,000. This helps solves one of the problems of how high quality analog (reel-to-reel, vinyl) can still be superior to digital formats.

That, and the extra robustness for editing, I think it's an easy choice. Whether one can truly hear the difference is obviously going to stir a big debate, and it also depends on the quality of your stereo system, as well as your ears.

Anyway, I'm sure higher bit depths/sample rates are going to become commonplace in the future, so why not take a step in that direction now and not regret it later?

Offline boojum

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2007, 02:16:58 AM »
This is a real hijack, so you might want to just skip it.


Just my view...
<snip>

 So of course 16 million is a lot closer to infinity than 65,000.

<snip>


I am not sure, but I think they are equally close if I have any understanding of the Law of Large Numbers.  Infinity is so beyond any concept we might have that the difference between 65K and 16M is insignificant.  I think of the three infinities I know of, Aleph sub 1, Aleph sub 2 and Aleph sub 3 (yes, three infinities) they are pretty big: Alpeh sub 1 is the sum of all the points on a plane.  A point has no dimension.  Aleph sub 2 is the sum of all the odd and even numbers and Aleph sub 3 is the sum of all the possible curves in the world.  If there is a mathematician around, please help me here.  I studied US History so I am way beyond my depth.  But 65K and 16M are just about equal by the terms of infinity.  As counterintuitive as it sound.

Theoretical math is freaky.  The square root of four is plus or minus two.  The fourth root of sixteen is plus two, minus two, and two twos whose signs we do not yet know.  Sheesh.  See why I studied history???

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 02:19:05 AM by boojum »
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Offline chunga1

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2007, 02:32:34 AM »
 :-[ :o :'(
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Offline echo1434

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2007, 02:38:22 AM »
Ok, maybe the way I used the term "infinity" was a bit imprecise. Perhaps I should speak in terms about how "what can be perceived" relates to infinity. I read somewhere that approximately 20-bit is highest bit depth that a human can differentiate, but I don't know the evidence that claim was founded upon.

But at least we can all agree that 16-bit audio is more or less "pretty good". So if you expanded one of its properties by 256-fold (by producing 24-bit audio), that would be a marked technical improvement, no?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 02:43:40 AM by echo1434 »

Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2007, 02:58:33 AM »
SparkE, I am just trying to get these things to laymans levels, a perfect brickwall filter does not exist, sad but true. If we need perfect (unheardable) filtering of sub-samplerate frequences, OK, use 48 kHz and not 44.1 kHz, that keeps the minuscule time domain problems at around 20 kHz at bay. 96 kHz is an overkill. But the final products are often 44.1 kHz anyway (CDs...), so what is the point.

This "when a note plays" stuff: If the system plays perfectly the audible frequency range, also the timing information is perfect as far as we can hear it. This talk is about "timing" and "notes" not being in full sync is total BS inveted by golden ear belivers who lost their hobby when turntable tweaking went out of fashion. It has no scientific base and no test evidence to prove it.

About time coherence: If there were some timing problems in these systems, they would have to in the order or 1/50000 sec. (why else would people demand sample rates of 96 kHz and above?). Half wavelength at that frequency is 3.3 mm. By shifting your head by 1/8 of an inch while listening would throw the image out of whack, or what? We all know perfectly well it does not happen. Hearing is not that presice, audible range from about 16 to 20000 hertz contains all the information we humans can use, time, amplitude, transients, everything. There is nothing out there.

All this has nothing to do with bit depths. As previously said, 24 is convenient compared to 16 when recording and editing, for the final product 16 bits is plenty enough. Just to remember the original question.

Echo1434: you have one major flaw in your thinking of analog versus digital. Even 16 bit system has infinite values for the final output; lowpass filtering after the D/A conversion smooths out the waveform, there are no 65000 steps there in the sound you listen. And besides, in 24 bit systems those imaginary 16 million steps do not replace the 65000, they reside outside of that first 65000 step area, because adding 8 more bits gives just more dynamic range. Not "resolution", 12, 14, 16 bits define the waveform perfectly and steplessly within their dynamic range windows. Adding more bits adds dynamic range, it gives only more resolution to the most quiet sounds, loud sounds are already perfecly taken care off. Graphic representations of digitized waveforms give a wrong idea about the workings of the system.

Offline SparkE!

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2007, 08:03:38 AM »
SparkE, I am just trying to get these things to laymans levels, a perfect brickwall filter does not exist, sad but true.
OK, sorry about that.  I just saw brickwall filters used in your description in a way that indicated that they were used in practice.  Then you mentioned a compromise that was starting your filter at 45 kHz instead of trying to get it all right at 48 kHz.  At that point my BS detector went off and I pulled the handle on the whole house sprinkler system. ;D

But seriously, the main thing that higher sampling rates does for you is to help ensure that out-of-band signals stay out-of-band.  A properly designed recorder whose sample rate is 44.1 kHz will convert more of a 34.1 kHz signal to a 10 kHz alias signal than a properly designed recorder whose sample rate is 96 kHz will.  As long as there are no ultrasonic signals present, you don't have to worry, but air handling systems and other mechanical systems can have frequency components well into the ultrasonic range.  So can the output of the PA system where you are recording if someone installs ultrawide tweeters as part of the PA system.  Granted, this is not the most common situation, but when it exists, you will get a real and noticeable improvement by using a higher sampling rate, then downconvert to a lower sample rate for storage on media intended for use with playback systems.
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Offline gratefulphish

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2007, 07:56:31 PM »
As a result of this thread, I have now started recording at 24/48 vs. 24/96.  It makes life a lot easier, having each set fit into a 2Gb file, instead of putting the parts together, working on it, splitting it up.  Converting, putting back together, etc.   

But as I was thinking about it, it raised another question.  If we are recording in 44.1, then as I understand it, the samples that we are recording are essentially all within the audible range, except for maybe a few at the very high end.  When we go to 96, from all of the prior responses, it seems that all of the extra samples are in the area above the audible range.  So then the question arose about sample rate conversion.  What exactly happens when we convert from 96K to 44.1?  Is it just removing all of the samples that never would have been there if the original recording was done in 44.1, or is it actually selecting from some all of the 96K samples, including some of which may be in the beyond auditory realm.  If so, then it would seem to me that we might actually be losing useful samples, compared to just recording at 44.1 to begin with.  I hope the question is at least somewhat clear.  It just seems that we could potentially be losing some of data from the audible range, if a significant portion of the converted samples from a 96K recording are outside that range.
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Offline Petrus

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #99 on: September 17, 2007, 07:24:06 AM »
Downconverting from 96 to 44.1 kHz sample rate we basically arrive to the same situation we would have had if we had recorded in 44.1 kHz in the first place. Theoretically there might be some loss (rounding errors) compared to an original 44.1 kHz file, what is certain is that the quality can not be better than an original 44.1 file. So there is nothing to gain from recording with oversampling and downconversion. The only exeption could be heavy editing/slowing down etc. Using 24 is often helpfull, even when downconverting to 16 bits.

Downconverting from 96 to 48 basically we just throw away every other sample, no rounding errors there, end result should be identical to an original 48 kHz file.

Offline echo1434

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2007, 07:29:58 AM »
So there is nothing to gain from recording with oversampling and downconversion. The only exeption could be heavy editing/slowing down etc.

I'd say I pretty much agree with this, but this is still kind of assuming that the end product will be CD. I don't really use CD anymore, and I'm guessing that format will eventually go by the wayside.

In the future, more audio players will support the higher sample rates, so that's what's keeping me recording at 48K, for whatever tiny benefit it gives.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 07:32:53 AM by echo1434 »

Offline SparkE!

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Re: 24 bit > 16 bit
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2007, 09:26:44 AM »
Downconverting from 96 to 44.1 kHz sample rate we basically arrive to the same situation we would have had if we had recorded in 44.1 kHz in the first place. Theoretically there might be some loss (rounding errors) compared to an original 44.1 kHz file, what is certain is that the quality can not be better than an original 44.1 file. So there is nothing to gain from recording with oversampling and downconversion. The only exeption could be heavy editing/slowing down etc. Using 24 is often helpfull, even when downconverting to 16 bits.

Downconverting from 96 to 48 basically we just throw away every other sample, no rounding errors there, end result should be identical to an original 48 kHz file.
Actually, you do gain from using the higher sample rate.  The gain comes in the form of lower levels of ultrasonic frequencies that are unintentionally aliased into the audible frequency spectrum.  I'll agree that there is nothing to gain if you don't have ultrasonics present in the recording environment though.
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