Topic: AT853's/CA-11/14's plugged directly into R05, M10 etc.

[df]

How do these mic's sound using plug-in power, w/o an external preamp?  I'm still waiting on a preamp to arrive and wondering if I should use this setup or bring a stand, Neumann's, et al.

Specifically I would be using the AT853's with R-05 this weekend.

[The Other Chris]

I've run CA 14s directly into an R09 using the battery power and it turned out pretty good in my opinion.  Obviously it would sound better with the battery box but in a pinch it should work out.

[df]

I've run CA 14s directly into an R09 using the battery power and it turned out pretty good in my opinion.  Obviously it would sound better with the battery box but in a pinch it should work out.

ok

[kinglerxst]

If you run the 853's with the "mod" you can run into the recorder's mic-in and get the same performance as running with a battery box even at loud shows. If your 853's are terminated into a 1/8" mini plug you'd have to add the mod into the mic wires so-to-speak but if they are terminated with a 3pin mini xlr you can make a Y cable with the mod in it to go 3pin > mod > 1/8' mini >mic-in.

[adrianf74]

This has been asked a million times already.   Chris will say, at the very least, use an ugly battery box between the mics and the deck -- when it comes to the M10, it does NOT supply sufficient voltage to power his mics (and he's commented as such).

While _YOU CAN_ run the mics direct via MIC-IN, you run the risk of brickwalling and it could be hard to see.  Bringing in a battery box (like the ugly - not the preamp) shouldn't be any harder and doesn't add any real heft to the gear you need to bring with.   Something about "better safe than sorry" comes to mind.

[Andrea82]

I've run CA 14s directly into an R09 using the battery power and it turned out pretty good in my opinion.  Obviously it would sound better with the battery box but in a pinch it should work out.

Please, can you explain why it will sounds better with a bb?
Thanks

[fmaderjr]

Please, can you explain why it will sounds better with a bb?
Thanks

It will sound better with a battery box only if the plug in power supplied by the recorder is too low to handle the sound pressure level without distorting, so if you don't use a battery box it depends on the sound pressure level and which recorder you are using. Many people here have reported making great sounding recordings of loud material with CA11's or modded AT853's > M10/R09HR. CA14's require more plug in power voltage not to distort when the source is very loud, so I certainly wouldn't stack tape with them without a box and would be reluctant to use them without a box at any very loud show. However, as Adrianf points out, Chris Church recommends using a battery box or preamp with all his mics to be sure you won't lose a valuable recording.

If you run the 853's with the "mod" you can run into the recorder's mic-in and get the same performance as running with a battery box even at loud shows. If your 853's are terminated into a 1/8" mini plug you'd have to add the mod into the mic wires so-to-speak but if they are terminated with a 3pin mini xlr you can make a Y cable with the mod in it to go 3pin > mod > 1/8' mini >mic-in.

This is at least partly untrue. It you use AT853's without the mod they will definitely distort when the sound pressure level is too high for the mics even if you use a battery box. Also, I'm pretty sure that using AT853's with the mod does not guarantee that they won't distort at high sound pressure levels without a box, but in practice I don't think that will happen when run into an M10 or R09HR or any other recorder that provides at least as much plug in power voltage as these recorders.

[Andrea82]

Thanks for your answer.
Indeed, I did many very good/excellent tapes with the SP CMC 08 directly on Tascam DR2D, or with CA-11 on Edirol R09HR.

Please, can you explain why it will sounds better with a bb?
Thanks

It will sound better with a battery box only if the plug in power supplied by the recorder is too low to handle the sound pressure level without distorting, so if you don't use a battery box it depends on the sound pressure level and which recorder you are using. Many people here have reported making great sounding recordings of loud material with CA11's or modded AT853's > M10/R09HR. CA14's require more plug in power voltage not to distort when the source is very loud, so I certainly wouldn't stack tape with them without a box and would be reluctant to use them without a box at any very loud show. However, as Adrianf points out, Chris Church recommends using a battery box or preamp with all his mics to be sure you won't lose a valuable recording.

[kinglerxst]

>This is at least partly untrue. It you use AT853's without the mod they will definitely distort when the sound pressure level is too high for the mics even if you use a battery box. Also, I'm pretty sure that using AT853's with the >mod does not guarantee that they won't distort at high sound pressure levels without a box, but in practice I don't think that will happen when run into an M10 or R09HR or any other recorder that provides at least as much >plug in power voltage as these recorders.

Actually I have stack taped literally right under huge stacks using the 933's (that use the 853 elements) and  9V AT power modules (no mod) with extremely high SPL with no problem at all into an R-09.

And I have also taped using the same mics stack taping using no battery box, and just the mod running directly into the same R-09 and have taped extremely high SPL with no problems.

With AT mics (and no mod) I believe it's all about using them in 3wire mode (as the AT power modules run) to power them correctly.

Needless to say, you can "definitely" run them with the mod and no battery box into an R-09 (and I'm sure other recorders) and have absolutely no concerns about high SPL distortion.

There's probably samples on DIME where I have run both ways with no issues.

[fmaderjr]

Actually I have stack taped literally right under huge stacks using the 933's (that use the 853 elements) and  9V AT power modules (no mod) with extremely high SPL with no problem at all into an R-09.

And I have also taped using the same mics stack taping using no battery box, and just the mod running directly into the same R-09 and have taped extremely high SPL with no problems.

With AT mics (and no mod) I believe it's all about using them in 3wire mode (as the AT power modules run) to power them correctly.

If it works for you with your mics, I can't argue, of course. My AT853's will definitely distort when run without the mod.  Just recently I taped a choral program with unmodded AT853's thinking I wouldn't need the mod and got one instance of horrible distortion when the chorus hit the loudest note of the program.

I do agree that it's best to run AT853's 3wire, which is what I usually do.

[kinglerxst]

>If it works for you with your mics, I can't argue, of course. My AT853's will definitely distort when run without the mod.  Just recently I taped a choral program with unmodded AT853's thinking I wouldn't need the mod and >got one instance of horrible distortion when the chorus hit the loudest note of the program.

How were you running the AT853's? You said un-modded but was it through a battery box or directly into recorder? Are they terminated into a 1/8" mini plug or 3pin mini xlr's?

The only way I would run them unmodded myself was with the AT8532 modules which are 3wire and 9V to each mic, I have run those for over 15 years.

I did a comp running 2 of the same rigs but one with the 8531 (1.5V) modules and those would distort while the 8532 (9V) wouldn't. And I also ran the same comp running one rig with the 8532 9V boxes and the other with just the mod and had no issues with either, the mod rig handled the stack taping just as well as the powered rig.

As a side note, the mod doesn't always end up being 4.7K, can also be 3.3K or some even 2.2K depending on mics and recorder.

[fmaderjr]

How were you running the AT853's? You said un-modded but was it through a battery box or directly into recorder? Are they terminated into a 1/8" mini plug or 3pin mini xlr's?

In this particular occasion I was running them unmodded > 1/8 plug > CA9200 preamp (with 1/8 input) > M10. I didn't expect the SPL to be loud enough to distort but on that one note I was wrong.

I have both a 1/8 (unmodded) cable and mini-XLR cables for my 853's.

Normally I run them MIni-XLR > PFA > phantom power of recorder
or
Mini-XLR  > CA9200 preamp (with Mini-XLR input & 4.7 mod option turned on) > M10
Either of which I assume you'd be OK with.