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Author Topic: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern  (Read 11763 times)

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Offline MakersMarc

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Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« on: June 27, 2015, 04:45:43 PM »
About the only thing I don't have. 4022s don't cut it from the backs of bad rooms. Thanks!

Size not an issue.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 04:47:37 PM by MakersMarc »
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Offline Phil Zone

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2015, 05:20:42 PM »
I love the busman Bsc-1 the hypers are very nice. Not sure if that's n your price range
Microphones: AKG 460B, 480B, Naiant Actives,CK1,CK61,CK62,CK63, CK69, Busman BSC-1, CA-14
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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2015, 05:29:08 PM »
It really depends what you mean by "low priced;" low priced is a relative term.

I'm not sure how low priced the following are, but all will make sick tapes.

The AKG Blueline series has a hyper cap: AKG SE300B / CK93.

The AKG C480B line also has a hyper cap, the CK63-ULS. You could purchase a pair of the caps and order an active setup from 'followingbob.' I believe he still makes actives for that line. I would check the 'Retail Section' of this site to be sure.

Another option, though I'm not sure if they are still in production, is the Busman BSC1's. They include a set of hyper caps.

Audio-Technica also makes a hyper in their AT405x series, but they are pretty spendy.

I would keep an eye on the 'Yard Sale' board on this site. You'd be surprised at the deals you can find on some pretty nice gear.

I've included some links below, just to give you an idea of what's out there.

HTH

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/349107-REG/AKG_Blue_Line_Series_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/128246-REG/AKG_2231_Z_00250_CK63_ULS_Hyper_Cardioid_Capsule.html

http://www.busmanaudio.com/bsc1.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/642499-REG/Audio_Technica_AT4053B_AT4053b_Hypercardioid_Condenser_Microphone.html
Mics: Audio-Technica AT853's, Avantone CK-40 (Busman mod), Busman BSC1's, DPA 4022's, DPA 4060's
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2015, 05:39:18 PM »
It's relatively simple to make an inexpensive omnidirectional condenser microphone that sounds pretty good, and many manufacturers in many countries have learned how to do that. Directional capsules of equivalent quality are more complicated to design and manufacture--supercardioids most of all. Thus the quality of the best available omnis at a moderate price point is noticeably higher than the quality of the cardioids at that same price point--and for supercardioids, the "you-get-what-you-pay-for effect" is even greater.

With supercardioids there is an additional disruptive factor: the primary market for highly directional microphones is public address and film/video sound applications, not music recording. As a result the large majority of supercardioid microphones have significantly reduced low-frequency sensitivity by design. Unfortunately this isn't always evident from published frequency response curves or specifications, since the manufacturers of speech-oriented microphones generally measure their products at shorter distances from the test sound source than studio microphones would normally be measured, on the reasoning that the microphones are intended to be used at those shorter distances. But the closer the measurement distance that's used for a directional microphone, the more bass will show up in the graph due to proximity effect, which is not subtracted out. For sound sources beyond 1 or 2 meters distance, the response e.g. at 50 Hz can well be 10 dB less than what the graph or list of specifications will indicate. (10 dB is quite a lot.)

Finally, I have to lay it on the line: There is no type of microphone that will, by its nature, pick up good sound "from the back of a bad room." A supercardioid will eliminate more room sound at any given distance than any other first-order pattern will do. But those few supercardioid condenser microphones that have smooth, wide frequency response and a directional pattern that remains constant across the frequency range--an especially important characteristic when most of the sound is coming in from fairly random angles--are not "lo priced".

If I had to choose the supercardioid microphone with the best performance for the lowest price, I would probably choose the Beyer M 160 ribbon with the understanding that it can never, ever, ever be used outdoors (ribbons are more fragile than condensers), and that as a very low-output dynamic microphone, it will always be significantly more vulnerable to hum and radio frequency interference than a modern condenser microphone. However, unfortunately, the M 160 isn't cheap, and it would take a lot of trust to buy them used, since one moron who blows into the microphone to see if it's "on" can damage it, although that damage will be totally invisible externally. -- A possible alternative, which is smaller, less fragile and less costly, is the Beyer M 201 N(C)--but it's been literally decades since I used that model, and perhaps I'm remembering it with more fondness than it deserves, I dunno.

--best regards
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 11:18:37 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2015, 05:53:46 PM »
Thanks guys. I've also  actually never been a believer that hypers make a huge difference. I very rarely wind up in that situation, and frankly not sure it's worth it for the couple of times a year I do....and even then, it's not like you're gonna pull a great tape vs. a bad one...just maybe a touch better. 500 is probably my budget, should have included that, sorry.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2015, 05:55:08 PM »
Had the 483s years ago and still miss them some....versatile unlike the dpas.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2015, 11:39:58 PM »
Marc... Step away from the ATM.  Now... There you go.  ;)

Not a $500 mic but the Noomann KM150 seems to be highly regarded as hypers go.  If you want super directionality shouldn't you be seeking a pair of 'guns?

No kidding.  :P yeah, I really should be looking for guns, if anything. I loved my 483s tho, if I see some might be hard to pass by....... ::)

Had Nak 100s a long time ago, might have to watch for some guns.
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backwhereubelong

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2015, 08:39:34 AM »
I use the Naiant Hypers and get nice results.  Can't beat the price as well ...

http://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/microphones/x-r-interchangeable-capsule-microphone/

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2015, 11:17:50 AM »
Forgot Jon even made mics...thanks!
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Offline flipp

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2015, 11:28:40 AM »
since you say "Size not an isue" I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ADK-TLs yet and they are near the upper end of your budget

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2015, 11:32:34 AM »
Always wanted a pair...thanks for the reminder.
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2015, 11:46:46 AM »
> If you want super directionality shouldn't you be seeking a pair of 'guns?

Big no. 144-point, Times New Roman, bold, color=red, with a thick box around it.

[1] The main problem area in most "bad rooms" is at low frequencies, but shotguns are only highly directional at high and mid-high frequencies (= speech consonant frequencies). And even at those frequencies, the "distance factor" of a typical shotgun mike as compared to a cardioid is less than 2:1. No one in the professional audio world uses shotguns for long-distance miking; rather, professionals use them to get just enough extra "reach" so that the mike can be BARELY outside the film or video frame and still get acceptable clarity.

[2] Shotguns may sound good within their main front pickup angle, but when the sound field is diffuse (as in the back of a room), sound arrives at all angles pretty much with random distribution, and even the best shotguns don't sound very good then. The off-axis frequency response of any shotgun varies rather wildly in between the spot frequencies that are usually shown. It's a necessary consequence of the interference tube principle that they're based on.

There's a lot of evidence that non-professional customers misunderstand what shotgun microphones really are and how they function. This allows less-than-scrupulous manufacturers and dealers to sell shotgun microphones (or microphones that look like shotgun microphones but aren't) to users who want to do what is basically impossible with first-order microphones: to record clear, well-balanced, natural sound when the microphone is simply too far from the sound sources for any such recording to be made.

In that situation a good supercardioid will actually give better results, relatively speaking (since that's all there can be), because the polar pattern will be essentially the same all across the frequency range. The Neumann KM 150 that someone mentioned here is a good choice (or its less-expensive, non-modular counterpart the KM 185); it also has a rolled-off low end that can help to reduce the perception of room problems, and a small but helpful treble peak that helps compensate for absorption losses. Schoeps also makes a supercardioid with low-frequency reduction that's available on special order.

But those are obviously high-end microphones--and still they wouldn't do you nearly as much good as putting the mikes in good places to begin with.

--best regards
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 11:48:37 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2015, 11:54:46 AM »
Thanks DSatz.....very valuable. Kind of coming to the conclusion that if I can't get where I want to be, which happens really rarely, I'm probably better off just dealing with it rather than tying up more dollars in gear. Or going  >:D
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Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Nicky mod Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

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Offline yug du nord

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2015, 01:01:12 PM »
find a set of used busman's and try em out..  if not your thing, sell em.  good bang for your buck IMO.
.......not necessarily a "plug"....  but i might be selling my set of bsc1's with 4 capsule patterns since i haven't used em in a couple of years.
they are so versitile though,  i've had a hard time commiting to selling em.
i'll keep you posted if i do.
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline acidjack

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Re: Lo priced forgiving HyperCard or multpattern
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2015, 01:03:14 PM »
Never deny the wisdom of DSatz.

I think you could benefit from a super/hyper those few times a year -- and maybe others too. In roughly that range, if you want a balanced-sounding mic, I'd look at AKG ck63, AKG ck93 (cheaper but not as good as 63s), or the Audio Technica 4053. I've used the 93s and the ATs and really liked the results.

Personally I would avoid the Neumann 150s, which I think of as more of a "special purpose" mic. They strip out a LOT of bass. Very clean sound, very mid-vocal forward, but I'd be sure I liked that sound before I invested that much money in them (and they're out of your range anyway).
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
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