Topic: Naiant X-R classical chamber sample

[matahaka]

I just wanted to share a short sample of what I recorded last friday of a piano trio concert (Piano, Violin, Cello).

Mics in use were:
X-R omnis in AB set up, hanging straight down near the stage lip with Jon's 2 right angle RCA adaptors (for each body) to be able to angle it towards the performers
X-R Card (only one) in mono (because there was only one), BUT attached with Jon's boundary mount, and taped to the center and front of the stage.
Signals went into OCM R44 channel 1,2,3
4th channel was used for soundboard feed of a lecturer microphone

Room conditions:
Room is dry. Looks nice but it seems good for lectures and conferences. Not a big space, maybe 200 or 300 seater? If I get a chance to confirm I will update this space.
Room is very good for piano though, it can kill the strings easily..
A/C was turned on, it had some noise.
Lights were very buzzy and noisy.

Reasoning behind setup:
X-R omnis because I could not use any mic stand, and when I went there for the dress rehearsal, I did not have what I needed to hang an ORTF or something. After trying the XR omnis during the dress rehearsal, I felt they were good enough to stand on its own, so I used that as my main pair.

X-R card + boundary mount: I just wanted to pick up some clarity on the cello in the smallest profile possible. The owner of the trust fund which sponsored this venue and concert does not like microphone stands blocking the view of the audience.

I felt that the results were actually quite good! We had a good placement for the string musicians but the person who helped to put out the chairs for the trio section did not put them at the place they rehearsed, so they ended up much more to the left than during the last soundcheck that day.

Pictures and wave files are included in this link
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/13vg9gfmzl1tvp8/AADUEm9rGls35xNSGfP06bt6a?dl=0
Includes:
2 jpg pics of blurry photo quality
4 wave files at 96khz 24bits:
   - xr card with boundary mount mono (center): This is just the Cardioid mic (mono signal)
   - xr omni capsules AB: This is 2 hanging Omni mics (stereo channel)
   - xr omnis and card combined: This is the above 2 combined together (to my preference)
   - xr omnis and card combined plus some reverb: I added some reverb and possibly added more gain..

or you can listen to the sound files here:
https://soundcloud.com/matahaka/sets/xr-mics-piano-trio/s-c5Kkq

Pictures show: XR mics hanging down.. and an akg in the front of the center of the stage. AKG was used by the venue to provide sound to the TV outside for people who were late.
The xr card with boundary mount is just in front of it..

In my haste to setup and tear down, I totally forgot to take clearer pictures of the setup.. So please forgive the blurry pictures.

I hope this is helpful for anyone who is looking for samples of it!

Edit: Added details on what is in the dropbox link, and added one more file to dropbox link.

[matahaka]

Well.. soundcloud just pulled down one of my tracks (omni capsules) saying it may contain the work of Yoyoma playing the piano trio..

I guess naiant mics are worth it!

-disputing the claim, but you can still access the wave file in the dropbox link-

[voltronic]

Thanks for sharing this.  Great performance!  My order of preference:

1. Spaced omnis alone
2. 3-mic matrix with reverb
3. 3-mic matrix dry

#1 is the most natural stereo ambiance, and even in this dry space sounds the best to me.  I would definitely go this route again for this kind of music in this hall, but you can space your mics much closer together - 60cm or less.  It will be even more realistic sounding and

#2 sounds pretty good, but is much less natural.  Given the sound of #3, it makes me think you have a significantly different mix here between the 3 mics.  Besides reverb, I hear other processing added - stereo widening, compression, maximizer.  Those other things have the side effect of greatly magnifying the background noise, so unless you can get your spectral noise reduction working first, I wouldn't use all of the rest to juice the level.

#3 has no stereo image or depth at all - are the omnis very low in the mix?  I would not try this again unless you had all 3 mics on the same stereo bar (ex. 1m omnis w/ center card as Gutbucket often recommends).

I suspect your mixes in #2 and #3 are not the same thing at all - would you double-check?

[matahaka]

Thanks for listening!

Actually in the dropbox folder (soundcloud was giving me issues), i only have 3 wave files, and they are:
Only 2 XR omni mics
Only 1 XR card mic (mono channel panned center)
3 channels together plus reverb.. and only adding reverb but there might have been a possibility of some weird phase thing going on?

Again, i added the 3rd mic in because the cello gets eaten up by the piano's low notes..

And there was no other compression or stuff, unless it did that with the reverb plugin i was using..

Thanks for listening again!

[voltronic]

Thanks for listening!

Actually in the dropbox folder (soundcloud was giving me issues), i only have 3 wave files, and they are:
Only 2 XR omni mics
Only 1 XR card mic (mono channel panned center)
3 channels together plus reverb.. and only adding reverb but there might have been a possibility of some weird phase thing going on?

Again, i added the 3rd mic in because the cello gets eaten up by the piano's low notes..

And there was no other compression or stuff, unless it did that with the reverb plugin i was using..

Thanks for listening again!

I did listen to all 3 from Dropbox - Soundcloud had the mix only.  I'm almost positive that your reverb plugin was not just reverb, but added the other things.  I use iZotope Ozone, and this sounds exactly like the "4-band master excitation + widening" preset which activates Compression, Maximizer, Reberb, and Stereo Imaging components.

What I'm saying is that the mix between mics doesn't sound like what you say it is, which is why I was suggesting checking in your DAW to see if something was muted by accident.  The 3-mic mix sounds like just the mono cardiod, or if the omnis are there they are very low in the mix.  The one with reverb sounds like all 3 mics are in fact present, but with the levels juiced (compressed / maximized) plus the reverb.

[matahaka]

I will check it out!

And yes it is just the mono channel, not a 3 mic mix, i meant it as a downloadable file for anyone who wanted to play with the three tracks.

Sorry for the confusion!

[chinariderstl]

The A/B spaced omnis sound wonderful.  I couldn't quite discern it from the pictures, but how far apart are they?

[matahaka]

The A/B spaced omnis sound wonderful.  I couldn't quite discern it from the pictures, but how far apart are they?

They were hanging down the rod with the lights, and I would say maybe 150cm apart? Or maybe further.. They were quite widely spaced.

edit: I looked back at the pictures, I believe they were about 160 to 180 cm apart, and they were hanging at the front of the stage, meaning I had to climb up a ladder that was propped on the stage, not on the audience area in front of the stage, if that helps..

[Gutbucket]

Very cool.  Thanks very much for the thread and posting the samples and photos!

I don't have the ability to listen presently, but should be able at some point this weekend.. downloading the files now.

It's great that you've provided both the omnis alone and the center card alone, which will allow listeners to play around with the mix ratio (and also play with separate EQ and/or noise reduction on the center cardioid verses the omnis if they care to dive in deeper).  I highly recommend interested listeners load both files into their editing/mixing software (or onto their multichannel recorder, if it can be used for playback mixing) to listen while adjusting the level of the center cardioid verses the omnis.   The most appropriate balance between the two is highly variable and depends on many factors- differences between the mics themselves, the nature of the mic setup, the nature of the music, the position and arrangement of musicians, personal taste, and the playback system.  I find three general levels often work, and manytimes it takes switching back and forth between them (with some readjustment of mindset and maybe EQ if inclined) and listening for a while to determine what works best.  Start by making any balance and EQ adjustments if needed to the omni pair alone.  Then bring up the center channel by itself and adjust for anything egregious.  Then lower the level of the center, bring the omnis up again to normal listening level, and slowly bring up the center level.

Often mostly the omnis, with just enough center mic to fill the middle and add some presence works nicely, is the most "traditional stereo" sounding, and the safest bet.  Bring up the center cardioid until it is just noticeable, right at the limit of perception, and play with minor changes in its level.  Optimal center level may be driven here by things like the cello presence and timbre as much as the imaging quality across the soundstage.  This may be most appropriate in this case, where the center cardioid may be acting somewhat as a spot 'accent' mic rather than the 'equal partner' center channel of a dedicated 3-mic stereo array.  No telling without listening while adjusting though.

Other times a more or less equal level balance between the three channels is best.  This is sometimes more applicable with 3 mic setups specifically designed to work as such. But again, the only way to know is listen carefully while adjusting the center balance both up and down around that 'mostly similar' point.  Personal preference and expectation play a large roll here.

Less commonly, more center than omnis (wide omnis used in this case but it could be whatever the L/R 'side' channels consist of) works best.  That can be the case when there is a singer or other strong solo center source which benefits from being anchored to the middle a bit more firmly.  In that case the omnis take on the roll of adding some stage width and room ambience to the predominately mono center.

If you need to you can highpass the center cardioid (or more subtly reduce it's lowest frequency content with a more nuanced EQ curve) which often works nicely to help clean things up down low if you want to use more center level.  The omnis will provide sufficient uncluttered bottom end.  Just listen to make sure you aren't cutting too much low midrange 'body' from the cello.

[matahaka]

Thanks Gutbucket!

I added one more file which was essentially the 3 mics combined together without the reverb plugin, for anyone who wanted to listen to the immediate effect of the combination.

I believe that in this case, the recording turned out to be more of a spot mic on the cello (and piano), rather than a true center. The cardioids actually proved to be more sensitive than the omnis in this case, so the noise floor was quite low.

I will experiment with hpf. For anyone interested in the "boundary mount" i used on the x-r, it can be found here: http://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/microphone-accessories/x-r-microphone-system-accessories/#

In the picture here, you can see an AKG mic which does not belong to me, the signal travels to the TV outside. Behind the akg mic is a wire (from Jon's XR Remote amplifier) that leads to the X-R card capsule with boundary mount..

[voltronic]

I will check it out!

And yes it is just the mono channel, not a 3 mic mix, i meant it as a downloadable file for anyone who wanted to play with the three tracks.

Sorry for the confusion!

Oh, sorry I completely misunderstood.  I'll listen again with the tracks combined.

[voltronic]

OK, I just messed with the omnis and center card tracks in my DAW.  Focusing on the cello's low register, I found that the center track needs about a 3dB boost over the omni pair in order for it to become effective in that respect.  Raising its level beyond that starts to collapse the stereo image.  The mix you added recently without reverb sounds very similar.  I do like the balance of your mix very much, but the contribution of the center card is very subtle (and that's a good thing).

Thanks again for sharing!