Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Fig 8 small condenser mic  (Read 8676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2015, 11:42:37 AM »
Thankfully, although it's a fatal blow to absolute sonic realism, realization of the illusory nature of stereophonic reproduction doesn't inhibit the willing suspension of disbelief necessary for our sonic enjoyment.

With regards to what's actually going on, can anyone here point me to any polar measurements of actual M/S arrays?  Not the ubiquitous theoretical plots, but measurements made from real microphones setup in actual M/S implementations, showing the deviations from the idealized plots?

Closest I've ever found was this paper: A More Realistic View of Mid/Side Stereophony by Trevor Owen de Clercq - http://www.midside.com/pdf/nyu/masters_thesis.pdf

That paper contains polar plots of the L/R output of M/S arrays using the Neumann KM100 series, two U89, and the SM69.  I was very excited when I came across it years ago.  However, my excitement was greatly diminished when I discovered the data was not sourced from actual measurements of real-world M/S setups using those microphones, but rather mathematically extrapolated from the published polar plots for each microphone capsule/pattern.  The results estimate the M/S polar distortions due to variations in the individual polars of each of the microphones in combination, but the calculations still assume perfect coincidence.  Because of that, they do not reflect actual real-world implementations which are not, and can never be perfectly coincident.  Realworld measurements are likely to be further distorted in pattern, especially at high frequencies.

Here's the relevant quote from the above linked paper concerning it's methodology- The data used to calculate these sum and difference polar patterns versus frequency response graphs was extracted from the polar patterns freely available for download at Neumann’s English web site: http://www.neumann.com. Each gif file was opened in Photoshop to make exact measurements. At ten degree intervals, the decibel reduction (calculated in pixels) for each test frequency was recorded. This data was then mapped onto a 0 – 1 scale for use in number crunching programs. The result was a 19 X 8 matrix with each row representing a different test frequency (starting with 125 Hz) and each column representing a different angle of sound incidence (starting at zero degrees). The compiled data is available in the appendix. All Mid/Side to Left/Right conversions of this data were conducted in the FORTRAN programming environment of MATLAB. With MATLAB, advertised as numerical visualization software, the resulting matrixes of Left/Right information could be easily graphed on a polar plot with separation for individual frequencies.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2015, 02:00:26 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline refrain

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2015, 01:09:53 PM »
Thank you for all your replys, but I was looking for a simple and efective way of replacing the  AKG CK94... the Emesser is one of the ways, but still quite expensive... the senn's MKH30, or the shoeps (colletes ou CCM) are perfect but way out of my league...
As I said, I not very versed on the mechanics of the alignment, or other techies about MS tecnhiques, just that the AKG config I had really worked... gonna check the naiant fig8...
Mics: 2x Oktava MK-012 Card (XY, ORTF), AT BP4025 (STEREO XY), DIY Primo 172 48v matched stereo, Sony ECM 55B (Lav), DIY piezo mics
Audio Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6
Assorted audio acessories: Motu Ultralite MKIII, Echofire2 interface, Mackie 802 VLZ3 mixer, Rode Blimp II, sennheiser hd25
Audio Monitors: Yamaha HS7

Offline heva

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 10:42:25 AM »
This one has a fig.8 capsule [of some sort], don't know if it's halfway decent.

http://www.micsdirect.com/superlux_e525s.htm

Offline myke2241

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 237
  • Gender: Male
    • Herron Sound
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 11:41:20 AM »
This one has a fig.8 capsule [of some sort], don't know if it's halfway decent.

http://www.micsdirect.com/superlux_e525s.htm

I think that has three caps. the capture technique is MS. it allows your to select from raw MS, stereo LR wide and narrow (internal matrixed with two width ratios) and mono. There are some mics that do this really well like MKH418, Sanken XXXX (can't remember the model) Neumann 191.... all of which are well engineered legends in their own right.

i personally think you would be happier with two mic MS system unless you can afford one of the above and want a single mic solution.
Sound Devices 788, Sony PCM-M10
MKH 416, MKH 70, MKH 80, MKH 8040, MKH 8090, Schoeps CCM 41, CCM 8, Sonic Studios DSM-6SL, Fostex M22RP MS, Soundfield ST450

Online Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15700
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2015, 03:53:10 PM »
Eh..

With the proper signal switching, any stereo M/S microphone can offer raw M/S (mono is just M only), stereo L/R wide and narrow settings, regardless of the internal particulars of what capsules it happens to use.  Yeah we're all geeky gear heads and like to discuss how this stuff works and why.  But really, all that matters is the results, getting those results reliably and doing so within budget.  In light of that who really cares how many capsules it has or how gets there? 

Sometimes we (the customer) get far too hung up on specifying not the result we want, which is all we should really care about, but on specifying how the provider should go about implementing it for us.  That's a conflict of their expertise against ours which sets things up for disappointment.   It leads to marketers tying the hands of their own creative engineers and product designers by selling to the preconceived notions of the customer instead to the actual performance needs of the customer.  Bruno Putzeys nails it at the end of a AES powerpoint presentation, specifically in regards to amplifier designer consultants and their manufacturing customers who specify design criteria (often marketing driven) rather than performance criteria.  However, it applies far more broadly to most any provider/customer relationship.  Below is a quote from it, the full presentation PDF is available at the Hypex website- http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES123BP.pdf


The Two Roads

The Road To Hell:
Specify the Design, Accept the Performance.
The Road To Heaven:
Specify the Performance, Accept the Design.

Outset
• Customer has needs
• Subcontractor has capabilities

Potential problem
• Perceived overlap of competences
(Real overlap of actual competences is not a problem)

Failure modes
• Customer overestimates what they can do themselves
• Customer specifies implementation details
• Subcontractor meddles in customer’s work.

Critical steps for the Customer:
• Hire expertise, accept expertise.
• Write “black box” performance spec
• Performance is judged with the box closed and the power on.
• “Subjective sound quality” is a black box spec too.
• Type of circuit or parts is not a performance spec.


Not too far OT I hope.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:15:41 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline heva

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2015, 08:31:02 AM »
FWIW ... e525's insides ...


Offline refrain

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 84
  • Gender: Male
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2015, 11:43:15 AM »
FWIW ... e525's insides ...



Yeah, I've seen that one also, but the guy also talks about the MS side being a noise generator, that stopped after he put everthing together again... I´got a Shure VP88 (the same principle that the superlux, MHK 418S, etc), but really noisy, a bit heavy and big, good for indoors music, I was thinking about ordering this one from Thomman (europe), because it costs 100€ including shipping... and using it as a lowcost shotgun, besides the MS thing... but the Naiant make me think again, not yet available...
couple with a OKTAVA card... don't know...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:47:31 AM by refrain »
Mics: 2x Oktava MK-012 Card (XY, ORTF), AT BP4025 (STEREO XY), DIY Primo 172 48v matched stereo, Sony ECM 55B (Lav), DIY piezo mics
Audio Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6
Assorted audio acessories: Motu Ultralite MKIII, Echofire2 interface, Mackie 802 VLZ3 mixer, Rode Blimp II, sennheiser hd25
Audio Monitors: Yamaha HS7

Offline heva

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 70
Re: Fig 8 small condenser mic
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2015, 07:00:37 AM »
If there's any truth in this e525's noise spec of 22dB, it's not worse than the AKG C94.

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.06 seconds with 36 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF