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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: vwmule on April 09, 2019, 04:08:35 PM

Title: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: vwmule on April 09, 2019, 04:08:35 PM
Saw this on a Facebook group.

https://youtu.be/MGebCVb1CUM

From Gotham listing (see link below)

"The Zoom F6 is an extremely compact recorder that uses the same preamps and time code generator as the rest of the F-series and adds dual A/D conveters and the ability to record 32-bit floating pointaudio files, as well as the standard 24-bit.

"The extra bits in the 32-bit file give the F6 the capacity to record an enormous dynamic range at high quality with amazing freedom to adjust gain in post, since everything from a shout to a whisper is stored with the same fidelity. The F6 can record simultaneous 24- and 32-bit files or either format singly.

"The F6 uses a single L-series battery which can run the unit for up to eight hours. It can also be powered by USB-C or AA batteries."
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: H₂O on April 09, 2019, 04:23:34 PM
https://www.gothamsound.com/product/f6-recorder (https://www.gothamsound.com/product/f6-recorder)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Sebastian on April 09, 2019, 05:04:23 PM
The 32-bit capability sounds awesome. However, why did they make it look like a real Zoomie? :-)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on April 09, 2019, 05:05:52 PM
How, if at all, is the 32 bit capability helpful for those of us who record loud concerts (as opposed to film dialog, nature sounds, acoustic music, etc)?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Sebastian on April 09, 2019, 05:11:42 PM
How, if at all, is the 32 bit capability helpful for those of us who record loud concerts (as opposed to film dialog, nature sounds, acoustic music, etc)?

Not having to worry about setting levels sounds like the best thing since sliced bread to me. Especially for live shows where there's usually a lot of guesswork involved.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: vwmule on April 09, 2019, 05:15:23 PM
> However, why did they make it look like a real Zoomie? :-)

Yeah, pretty ugly. Hopefully it would look better in person.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on April 09, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
How, if at all, is the 32 bit capability helpful for those of us who record loud concerts (as opposed to film dialog, nature sounds, acoustic music, etc)?

There are reports of folks having issues with clipping, (or brickwalling, as some call it) at the recorder stage. This would at least eliminate clipping at that part of the recording chain.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: illconditioned on April 09, 2019, 05:21:42 PM
Wow.  Looks like a drone controller.
Zoom is always innovating.
I have the Zoom F1.  My first one broke (usb connector), but it is so good I bough another.Likes: locking  1/8" mic connectors, phantom powerAlso acts as soundcard on USB.
Dislikes: USB connector breaks.  Now hotmeltglue'd into place.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on April 09, 2019, 06:31:45 PM
How, if at all, is the 32 bit capability helpful for those of us who record loud concerts (as opposed to film dialog, nature sounds, acoustic music, etc)?

Not having to worry about setting levels sounds like the best thing since sliced bread to me. Especially for live shows where there's usually a lot of guesswork involved.

I guess I don't understand this.  How does it alleviate the need to set levels?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on April 09, 2019, 06:46:29 PM
How, if at all, is the 32 bit capability helpful for those of us who record loud concerts (as opposed to film dialog, nature sounds, acoustic music, etc)?

Not having to worry about setting levels sounds like the best thing since sliced bread to me. Especially for live shows where there's usually a lot of guesswork involved.

there is zero advantage to recording at 32 bit (192dB of data) vs 24 bit (144 dB of data). the best analog gear in the world is only approaching 21 bits (126 dB of data). Mics have less resolution than that.

you can already record with 24 bit and make nice recordings peaking at -30 to -20 dB with the right gear

now processing is a different animal, most DAWs use 32bit by default for that

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: BonoBeats on April 09, 2019, 07:25:55 PM
Curtis Judd has a brief interview from NAB:

https://youtu.be/MGebCVb1CUM
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Sebastian on April 10, 2019, 03:33:07 AM
there is zero advantage to recording at 32 bit (192dB of data) vs 24 bit (144 dB of data). the best analog gear in the world is only approaching 21 bits (126 dB of data). Mics have less resolution than that.

you can already record with 24 bit and make nice recordings peaking at -30 to -20 dB with the right gear

The way I understand it the benefit is not only with the additional bits (which are useless in a traditional setup), but with the dual ADCs combined with them. From the video interview, I understand that they are running two ADCs at the same time for different sensitivity ranges and then combine both their outputs into a single 32 bit file, effectively yielding a higher bit depth than would be possible with a single ADC.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on April 10, 2019, 06:46:23 AM
I expect 32 bit to be useful at low levels, not really for high level gain setting.  32 bit does unchain you from any gain change constraints in post, you can crank up -50dBFS signals with little/no penalty. 

An F8n line input set to -10 gain will still clip at about -5.5dBFS with a line source, so the input stage is still the overload point rather than the converter.  

Running F8n on rock band instrument recordings, anything like a KM140 gain stages correctly set on line input at 0dB gain setting.  

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on April 12, 2019, 09:30:11 PM
So I watched the youtube videos, and I'm both enthused and confused.  One Zoom guy was saying that you can record one channel without gain and another with say 30 dB of gain, then normalize the files in post and you won't be able to tell the difference.  But then they are advertising the splendidness of their pre-amps, and I don't really get why you need any preamps at all.  Why build in the cost of these? 

I would have tended not to take this Zoom claim too seriously, but I have been using the 19-channel Zylia ZM-1 for about 5 months now, and that's also a mic system you use without any analog gain.  I laughed when I read the discussion of gain in the Zylia material:  if your recording is distorting because the source is too loud, move the ZM-1 sphere a few feet back from the instrument.  So we're back to the basics of more than a century ago, before the invention of electric recording.  Too loud?  Please move another foot or two back from the recording horn, Mr. Caruso.  When I pulled the 19 channels of a Zylia recording into Reaper, it looked like there was nothing there, but when I played it back with my Grace m900 set at 99, I heard the music.  I am still conditioned by 16 bit DAT machines to try to set levels accurately, back then adding 3-4 dB in post was a big deal; now with 24 bit recorders I routinely add up to 8 dB, maybe 12 dB at times.  With the Zylia recordings, even using their summed "virtual" mics or ambisonic B (first order only for me so far) output, I have to boost 20-30 dB.  The B format stuff is not as good as my Josephson C700S output (well, say under $50 per capsule for the ZM-1 vs. about $3000 per capsule for the C700S) but it's not actually really noisy for chamber music, I really hope a ZM-X comes along with next generation capsules etc.

So I'll likely be getting one of these F6s in June unless someone does a field test and flunks it.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on April 14, 2019, 12:35:41 AM
I expect 32 bit to be useful at low levels, not really for high level gain setting.  32 bit does unchain you from any gain change constraints in post, you can crank up -50dBFS signals with little/no penalty. 

An F8n line input set to -10 gain will still clip at about -5.5dBFS with a line source, so the input stage is still the overload point rather than the converter. 

Running F8n on rock band instrument recordings, anything like a KM140 gain stages correctly set on line input at 0dB gain setting. 
If you’ve got some imaginary input with supersonic specs. Just because you’re recording at-50 dB  doesn’t mean the noise floor is not still around 115. No advantage over 24 bit
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on April 14, 2019, 11:14:56 AM
I expect 32 bit to be useful at low levels, not really for high level gain setting.  32 bit does unchain you from any gain change constraints in post, you can crank up -50dBFS signals with little/no penalty. 

If you’ve got some imaginary input with supersonic specs. Just because you’re recording at-50 dB  doesn’t mean the noise floor is not still around 115. No advantage over 24 bit

You are right the analog noise floor remains the same regardless of 24 or 32, and it may be poor/average in this product.  If they are deriving a pretty clean 32 bit word (remains to be seen), the bottom bits are so far down that you can set gain after the fact, which may be better than what the onboard preamp contributes if cranked up.  Digital gain on a low level signal at 32 bit float with a 32 bit word may contribute less noise than a Zoom preamp cranked way up.  It may be the same, but more free of dither noise artifacts for dialog production in film/TV.  It's apples to oranges in lots of ways, but it may give a bit of commercial advantage over the production costs of quieter analog input stages while easing the requirement to worry so much about input levels. 

Typical ambience in a quiet room with most microphones is generally enough to mask most analog noise floor anyway, unless that noise floor is significant.   Most new recorders have pretty respectable noise floors. 

My MOTU 16A converter (24 bit with 32 bit output bus, +24dBu max input = 0dBFS) shows a noise floor no worse than -137dBFS (-113dBu) at 16kHz in an analog wired loop test from DA to AD, -143dBFS (-119dBu) at 4kHz where the ear is generally most sensitive.  It appears to be defined by the dither curve, when you look at various sampling rates up to 192kHz.  That compared to the Zoom F8n at least is a much bigger difference, and easily trumps 24 versus 32 for practical purposes, and that basically agrees with your point. 

I had an F8n (interface mode) and the 16A connected as an aggregate device into a DAW, and used a Sytek MPX-4Aii driving the 16A, set the Sytek for max gain and matched the F8n gain to it.   Then looking at the noise floors, the F8n was 2.5dB to 1.2dB noisier from 1kHz to 16kHz, but 4.5dB at 250Hz, 7.5dB at 100Hz, and 10.5dB at 30Hz. 

What I haven't done yet is measure noise comparisons at minimum gains, will have to do that. 

Anyway, spitballing here, lots of contradictory 'what ifs' and unknowns.  I definitely don't feel any need to upgrade, but it may be something to look forward to when the time comes.   
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Paul Isaacs on April 16, 2019, 02:34:39 AM
FWIW... Microphone self noise and mic preamp noise make the 32-bit v 24-bit debate sort of irrelevant. 24-bit is more than big enough a container to handle the dynamic range of any real world sound and provides all the resolution and accuracy you need even when capturing extremely low level analog signals. If you have a low self-noise microphone plus a high quality mic preamp, record something at low level e.g. peaking to about -50dBFS and normalize to -0.1dBFS. The difference between 32-bit and 24-bit will be negligible. The only difference is that with 32-bit, you've recorded 30% more data for no additional quality.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on April 16, 2019, 04:12:12 AM
FWIW, this show was recorded 10 years ago without a preamp... schoeps CMR>battery box>AD2K @ 24/96 (AD2K is a great design, but 20-year old tech at this point. 117 dBA dynamic range with it 'wide open' at +14dbU=0 dBFS)

levels peaked around -30 dBFS and was normalized in post with no other processing, EQ, or noise reduction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcACDQv2x9I&feature=youtu.be&t=548

if you need to record at levels lower than that maybe time to rethink your setup. that setup above was designed to be minimalist and bypass additional components, but realistically, when you get to signal levels lower than that, the self noise of components starts to creep in and become significant, regardless of the word depth you end up capturing at the end.

conceptually with the dual ADCs they can tune to a wider gain range (one mic level, one line level), but in reality thats still somewhat automating the level setting process

there are tons of pres from 20 years ago that had 70 dB or more of clean gain, as paul said when recording at levels that quiet, the mic noise becomes real apparent

maybe theres something im missing, i get the benefit of a wider input range but dont see it as a practical feature id use
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on April 16, 2019, 10:56:17 AM
I don't really see anyone here needing this 'feature'.  I'll be curious to see some real data showing practical benefits. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on April 16, 2019, 11:58:01 AM
Speaking from the perspective of someone who mostly records loud concerts where the noise from the crowd alone is probably 60-70 dB, I think a feature that's more important than 32-bit is the number of channels, and this has two less channels than the F8/F8n.  While eight channels is likely overkill for most, I sometimes use that many (particularly when using the dual record function).

That said, I'm glad Zoom is pushing things.

If they really want to dazzle those of us here who comprise about 0.01% of their target audience, they could come out with a M10/R-05 size recorder that can serve as a true digital bit bucket.  Now that would be something.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on April 17, 2019, 10:59:02 AM
As I understand it, 32 bits or even 48 bits come in handy when digitally processing audio.  For instance, you can sum 8 channels together when each channel is peaking to zero, and the mix doesn't distort in the digital realm, though you might have to lower the master fader to avoid D/A distortion at the output.  On an anolog mixer you'd have to have each channel fader down somewhat to avoid distortion happening long before it gets to the master.  Maybe the mixer element of this recorder is working in 32 bits and they took the logical step of recording the 32 bits of each channel, rather than be dealing with say 24 bits for recording and 32 bits for mixing.  Guesswork...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on April 17, 2019, 09:36:25 PM
almost all DAW software uses 32bit float for intermediate processing, as it reduces rounding errors in the final rendered product when multiple processing steps are involved
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: IronFilm on April 17, 2019, 11:31:06 PM
Speaking from the perspective of someone who mostly records loud concerts where the noise from the crowd alone is probably 60-70 dB, I think a feature that's more important than 32-bit is the number of channels, and this has two less channels than the F8/F8n.  While eight channels is likely overkill for most, I sometimes use that many (particularly when using the dual record function).

That said, I'm glad Zoom is pushing things.

If they really want to dazzle those of us here who comprise about 0.01% of their target audience, they could come out with a M10/R-05 size recorder that can serve as a true digital bit bucket.  Now that would be something.

Good point about needing more channels when using dual record.

Wish Zoom would push a firmware update for the Zoom F8n which allows it to do 18 track recording!

Thus then you'd have all eight channels recorded plus all eight at a safety level (at a pre defined level you could select in the menu) plus a stereo mix down. (which adds up to 18 channels in total)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on April 18, 2019, 10:55:26 AM
Quote from: Dan Lavry in Tape Op #64
One should make a distinction between the "number of bits" and the "number of real bits." Take a 12-cylinder car where only 8 cylinders are connected to the drive shaft. Is it a 12-cylinder car or an 8- cylinder car? You can say it has 8 "real cylinders" plus 4 useless cylinders. Similarly, you can have 24 bits but how many of them are "connected" to the sound? There is no such thing as true 24-bit conversion and there won't be in my lifetime. I'm talking conversion bits here, which is different from processing bits. That's a big distinction. When you do processing you need more bits. Why? If each channel has a range from 0 to 1 million, then the sum of all the channels will range from 0 to 16 million, (requiring 4 more bits). Say you want to attenuate the range of a channel by 2. The "steps" are no longer whole integer. The smaller steps (quantization levels) also call for more bits. So for processing we want more bits to express both bigger numbers and smaller numbers. But at the end we scale back the number of bits. The extra bits served their purpose during processing, but the engine can never yield more dynamic range or less distortion than what was fed to it by the converters.

Mr. Lavry said that more than a decade ago, so maybe he has changed his opinion since then.  I kind of doubt it, though...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on May 15, 2019, 08:37:57 PM
YouTube discussion of what may be going on in the Zoom F6:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTuJ1fk3PsY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTuJ1fk3PsY)

Julian Krause makes a very sensible guess at what may be in the F6 (if not, it's what should be!).

Waiting to hear more.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 19, 2019, 02:43:37 PM
This NAB video from Gotham Sound with the Zoom rep has an interesting explanation on the benefits of recording direct from dual ADCs to 32-bit floating.  Skip to 2:20 for the part focused on that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR-kvI7Gbl0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR-kvI7Gbl0)

So the big deal isn't so much the 8 additional bits; it is the floating-point math, which means you don't reduce your resolution at the bottom end of the dynamic range.  You're not just looking at 8 more bits above 24-bit, as you would be if it were fixed point; the floating-point allows the full resolution at all volume levels. 

Here is a good explanation on floating-point numbers:
http://steve.hollasch.net/cgindex/coding/ieeefloat.html (http://steve.hollasch.net/cgindex/coding/ieeefloat.html)


A lot of the arguments I am reading here and elsewhere that say there is no benefit to recording in 32-bit float seem to make one or more of the following assumptions:

1. The 8 additional bits in a 32-bit audio file are useless, because 24-bit already exceeds the dynamic range of any mic, preamp, or ADC.

This is true when talking about the overall dynamic range, but how many bits of resolution are you able to actually use for the quietest sounds in your recording within a fixed-point file?  Also, once you introduce dual ADCs, that dynamic range widens significantly.


2. There are no native 32-bit ADC chips, so you have to quantize to 24-bit anyway which makes 32-bit float good for processing, but pointless for recording.

This was true until recently, but 32-bit ADCs are now available.


3. No one needs such ridiculously huge dynamic range, even if the hardware and software can do it.

Again, we're not just talking about the overall dynamic range, we are talking about the resolution available to the loudest and softest sounds in your recording.  Why would all of the DAW programs use 32-bit float (or 64-bit) for internal processing if there wasn't a benefit?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: vwmule on May 22, 2019, 01:24:26 PM
Zoom now has much more information on this new device: https://www.zoom-na.com/products/field-video-recording/field-recording/zoom-f6-multitrack-field-recorder

Super compact.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: lsd2525 on May 22, 2019, 02:16:20 PM
Thing looks small
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: seethreepo on May 22, 2019, 03:15:14 PM
Thing looks small

#Giant Hands
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on May 22, 2019, 11:27:38 PM
If you follow the "buy now" link on the Zoom US site to B&H, you see an pre-order price of $649 for the F6.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: justme on May 23, 2019, 12:48:27 AM
Interesting to read.
It do have some analog/digital hybrid limiters to handle the inputs in 24 bit mode.

Advanced Look-Ahead Hybrid Limiters
When recording in 24-bit, the F6 uses advanced look-ahead hybrid limiters to provide overload protection. By adding a 1-millisecond delay, the limiters “look ahead” anticipating clipping before it’s recorded.


I could imagine this would be a two channel dream if they slashed the height with 2/3. 😃
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 23, 2019, 07:08:16 AM
A lot of the arguments I am reading here and elsewhere that say there is no benefit to recording in 32-bit float
i dont think technically anybody is arguing that it has *no* benefit, rather that it has nominal benefit.

technically it would be better if all the full size mics people used had a self noise of 14 dB vs 16 dB, practically speaking its not really a concern

technically it would be better if everybody running schoeps ditched their cmc6 for XTs, practically speaking its not really a concern

we could go on and on... sample rates, magical oxygen-free interconnects, etc etc


Again, we're not just talking about the overall dynamic range, we are talking about the resolution available to the loudest and softest sounds in your recording.  Why would all of the DAW programs use 32-bit float (or 64-bit) for internal processing if there wasn't a benefit?

rounding errors/quantization noise
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on May 23, 2019, 08:46:40 AM
I would've liked it to support dual SD cards like the F4 and F8, but seeing how small it is I guess they wouldn't fit.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on May 23, 2019, 08:48:39 AM
Thing looks small

(https://media.giphy.com/media/elPYgmQ506HK0/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on May 23, 2019, 09:49:28 AM

I was really interested in this until I saw that it doesn't have combo Neutrik inputs that can also take TRS plugs.

Why wouldn't they include this really easy to implement and widely needed feature?

When I'm working in the field I don't want to have to rely on adapters and I can only carry so many cables.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: ButchAlmberg on May 23, 2019, 10:12:12 AM
Quote
doesn't have combo Neutrik inputs that can also take TRS plugs

Thanks for pointing this out
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on May 23, 2019, 10:35:21 PM

i dont think technically anybody is arguing that it has *no* benefit, rather that it has nominal benefit.


^you actually said on the first page of the thread that it has "zero" benefit...

After watching the vids and listening to the Zoom folks talk it looks like the knobs are faders - not gain - and the individual tracks are recorded post fader - so the knobs on the front will make the ISO tracks recorded "louder" if I'm understanding this correctly.

If I'm not they may only adjust volume of the mix track or the output.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 23, 2019, 11:00:52 PM
This thing is a game changer for live recording. Literally set it and forget it. I'm probably getting one.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on May 23, 2019, 11:11:06 PM
I've pre-ordered at B&H.  Delivery pushed out to July.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 24, 2019, 12:05:26 AM

i dont think technically anybody is arguing that it has *no* benefit, rather that it has nominal benefit.


^you actually said on the first page of the thread that it has "zero" benefit...


touche

zero benefit for 'me' i guess ;) (as a live concert taper)

for the same reasons i listed
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: adrianf74 on May 24, 2019, 04:29:17 PM

I was really interested in this until I saw that it doesn't have combo Neutrik inputs that can also take TRS plugs.

Why wouldn't they include this really easy to implement and widely needed feature?

When I'm working in the field I don't want to have to rely on adapters and I can only carry so many cables.


That was a letdown for me as well.  I was really eyeing this bad boy but that had me slamming on the breaks.  Than and the single SD card slot -- dual recording to two cards is a HUGE benefit in the event one of the cards flakes.  When I'm doing 4 channel records, it's usually with a board patch plus mics and I really don't want to lose that option. I ended up picking up a minty F4 with a Portabrace bag off eBay. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 24, 2019, 10:48:14 PM
Using standard XLR jacks rather than the combo versions does seem a bit odd, given the F4 and F8n, their most recent pro recorders, both have the combo jacks.

I find it interesting that Sound Devices has the same odd choices.  While the 6 and 7 series had regular XLR jacks only, as does the MixPre-3, the MixPre-6 and MixPre-10 both use combo jacks.  The new Scorpio flagship recorder is back to using regular XLR.

It also may be worth noting that the switching version of the Neutrik XLR-1/4" combo jacks cost about double what a standard XLR jack does.  Then again, my DR-70D has combo jacks, and is far cheaper than anything we're talking about here.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 26, 2019, 09:10:04 PM
OK, I think this picture shows a possible reason why the F6 uses standard XLR rather than combo jacks.  With 1/4" plugs inserted, there probably wouldn't be room for the internal AA pack without making the whole unit wider.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 26, 2019, 10:07:48 PM
Audio examples recorded at extreme levels starting around 5:40 in this video.

I agree that the dual-ADC with 32-bit float is a game changer, particularly for people like me who record music with wide dynamic range.  As soon as funds allow, I need one of these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=338&v=y4oNd1RgGL0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=338&v=y4oNd1RgGL0)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 27, 2019, 03:02:10 AM
ok thats impressive but its obviously using a bunch of digital fuckery to achieve it

at the beginning of the vid he says "there are no levels to set" but then says there is a fader

the inability to disable digital processing would be an area of concern imo... and those asymmetric waveforms also look suspect
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 27, 2019, 07:11:16 AM
ok thats impressive but its obviously using a bunch of digital fuckery to achieve it

I'm not sure what you're getting at with "digital fuckery".  What processing?  Sure, there needs to be a hand-off between the two ADCs somewhere where the ranges overlap, but I wouldn't call that "processing".  Zoom isn't the first to implement dual-ADCs; but they appear to be the first to pair that with 32-bit float recording, and that's what's special here.


at the beginning of the vid he says "there are no levels to set" but then says there is a fader

When he says "no levels to set" I believe he is only talking about preamp gain when running in 32-bit float.  That would be consistent with how other people have spoken about this unit.  The gain setting is fixed in that case, because when recording in 32-bit float, gain setting is irrelevant as the video demonstrates.  The knobs are faders, which are post-gain, and you would only need to bother with them for your stereo mixdown track.  For your ISO tracks, you just boost or attenuate in post with nothing lost.

If you record in 24-bit, then gain setting would matter, and the specs show you have a range of +12 dB to +75 dB.  We will have to wait for a manual to be posted and/or a more detailed review to show how preamp game is / is not available in the menus for the 24 and 32 bit recording options.


the inability to disable digital processing would be an area of concern imo... and those asymmetric waveforms also look suspect

Regarding asymmetric waveforms: I think you are implying there may be a DC offset, but not all asymmetric waveforms indicate this.  See these two links, particularly the high-pass filtered example in the first article.  The video I linked was recorded with a DPA 4017b shotgun mic, and I suspect there was a HPF engaged.
http://www.producenewmedia.com/asymmetric-waveforms-should-you-be-concerned/ (http://www.producenewmedia.com/asymmetric-waveforms-should-you-be-concerned/)
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/asymmetry/asym.html (http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/asymmetry/asym.html)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on May 27, 2019, 08:18:06 AM

I'm pretty impressed with what Zoom has been doing in the recorder market the past few years.

Their first few recorders were miserable but they were marketed as toys not serious recorders for professionals or serious hobbyists. Technology has caught up to affordability for us working stiffs.

Can't wait to tell Zman that he can sell his AD2K  :D
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on May 28, 2019, 01:41:35 AM
As soon as funds allow, I need one of these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=338&v=y4oNd1RgGL0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=338&v=y4oNd1RgGL0)

Hey - you're letting forum standards slip there - I thought waiting for funds to allow new kit purchases was something we simply don't do here?!   I have to say I'd be all over this box except I don't do any recording any more.  Still, it would be nice to have in the cupboard, to take out and pat every now and then.... sigh.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 28, 2019, 03:09:33 AM
thanks for the links volt

re: "High-pass filters, and aggressive low-end processing are common causes of asymmetric waveforms. "

asymmetry is something ive only recently experienced (while pushing the bleeding edge of underpowering mics with PIP) and trying to put my finger on the causes of it. Certainly its not always audible (to my ears) in all cases. my A10 is under the knife right now so well see what it does when i get it back with a better battery box
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on June 22, 2019, 12:09:19 PM

Has anyone pre ordered one of these yet? After looking at the Ops Manual in depth I think that even with the omission of a couple of features that I would want - TRS inputs mainly - I'm going to grab one of these.

The B and H site says expected availability July 3rd.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 22, 2019, 12:48:28 PM
I have not pre-ordered, because I have some Amazon gift money I want to use to knock the price down.  But I am definitely getting one of these as soon as they are available.  The 32-bit floating with dual ADC will be very helpful with the wide dynamic range recording I do.  Besides the benefits already mentioned, it is going to cut way down on storage requirements.  Right now, I record a set of -12 dB safety tracks which do have to be used on occasion.  With the F6, I can eliminate those.  Only about a 40% file size increase from 24-bit.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on June 25, 2019, 12:58:43 PM
FWIW... Microphone self noise and mic preamp noise make the 32-bit v 24-bit debate sort of irrelevant. 24-bit is more than big enough a container to handle the dynamic range of any real world sound and provides all the resolution and accuracy you need even when capturing extremely low level analog signals.

This pretty much sums up how I am looking at this, although I am no expert. I would love to hear a well conducted comp or see some numbers. If there is a real advantage, it should be hearable or measureable.

That review by Curtis Judd is very misleading, I think. All of the gain changes were made after conversion. It isn't like he actually recorded a really quiet source and then showed it to be noise free on amplification. I guess he showed that 32-bit float is useful for processing, but not much else.

I also find the reactions to this kind of ironic; when the MixPre-3/6 came out, SD claimed something pretty similar, due to the wide dynamic range. "Now, precisely setting the Gain is much less critical (in most cases unnecessary) due to the extremely quiet (lack of hiss) nature of their design. This allows you to use the MixPre-6 with the confidence that even if optimal Gain levels haven’t been set, your audio will still be handled and recorded with grace. The extraordinarily low noise floor of the Kashmir mic preamplifiers allow recorded tracks to be 'normalized' (the process of adding level to a whole recorded track as to align the loudest peak with near-maximum) in post-processing without fear of ruining the track due to the added noise that would have been present in other preamplifier designs. Finally, you’re free to capture audio on the fly without worry!" People here were not at all receptive to that argument (it's a dealbreaker and whatnot), but with this Zoom it's a game-changer...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 25, 2019, 02:44:44 PM
FWIW... Microphone self noise and mic preamp noise make the 32-bit v 24-bit debate sort of irrelevant. 24-bit is more than big enough a container to handle the dynamic range of any real world sound and provides all the resolution and accuracy you need even when capturing extremely low level analog signals.

This pretty much sums up how I am looking at this, although I am no expert. I would love to hear a well conducted comp or see some numbers. If there is a real advantage, it should be hearable or measureable.


I believe Paul's comment was in regards to 32-bit fixed; not floating.  They are not at all the same thing.  Please see the links I posted in Reply #25 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2300319#msg2300319).

I do agree with you on "hearable and measureable", but I believe the links in that post explain what the advantages of float-point recording are.

That review by Curtis Judd is very misleading, I think. All of the gain changes were made after conversion. It isn't like he actually recorded a really quiet source and then showed it to be noise free on amplification. I guess he showed that 32-bit float is useful for processing, but not much else.

It is not misleading at all.  He did one recording at an extremely low level, and another at extremely high level.  He showed that increasing the level of the very low-level recording in post did not increase the preamp noise, and then he demonstrated the other recording that had levels way above 0 dBFS could be lowered to within normal digital signal levels, and there was no clipping. 

This demonstrates that you never need to worry about your gain being set too high or too low in such a system.  In fact, the F6 preamp gain is fixed when in 32-bit float recording mode.  This means the preamp gain was identical for both the high-level and low-level recordings.  The difference in levels for the recorded tracks were made by the F6 post-ADC (the channel level knobs are faders; not gain trims in 32/float).

I'm assuming your use the of the word "gain" here doesn't really mean "gain" in the analog sense but digital signal "level".  Either way: changing the levels after conversion is exactly the point.  With this kind of system, you can do that without compromising the original quality.

Try either of those extreme recordings with similar post manipulation with a 24-bit (or 32-bit) fixed-point recording system.  If you have very low-noise mics and preamps, you might get similar results on the quiet recording, but definitely not on the loud one - it will be clipped all over the place.


I also find the reactions to this kind of ironic; when the MixPre-3/6 came out, SD claimed something pretty similar, due to the wide dynamic range. "Now, precisely setting the Gain is much less critical (in most cases unnecessary) due to the extremely quiet (lack of hiss) nature of their design. This allows you to use the MixPre-6 with the confidence that even if optimal Gain levels haven’t been set, your audio will still be handled and recorded with grace. The extraordinarily low noise floor of the Kashmir mic preamplifiers allow recorded tracks to be 'normalized' (the process of adding level to a whole recorded track as to align the loudest peak with near-maximum) in post-processing without fear of ruining the track due to the added noise that would have been present in other preamplifier designs. Finally, you’re free to capture audio on the fly without worry!" People here were not at all receptive to that argument (it's a dealbreaker and whatnot), but with this Zoom it's a game-changer...

You cant directly compare the two.  MixPre 3/6/10 only records in 16 or 24 bit, but uses 32-bit for internal processing.  The criticism (at least from me) was that they were being a bit misleading in their specs and promo materials by touting "32-bit precision" of the ADC, when the recorder doesn't actually produce 32-bit files, be they fixed or float.

Sound Devices' selling point for the MixPre is the extremely low noise floor of their preamps, which allows you to set levels lower than you otherwise would normally do, because you don't want your low-level signals to be anywhere near the self-noise of your preamp.

Zoom's selling point for the F6 is the dual ADCs and 32-bit float point recording, which means that the dynamic range available is so wide, with the full resolution available even at extreme levels, that the gain setting is entirely irrelevant.

Two different approaches to tackling the same issue.

So, yes, I absolutely believe the F6 is a game-changer, especially for what I record.  The only other recording devices I am aware of that incorporate a similar dual-ADC system are Zaxcom recorders, and those are many times more expensive.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 25, 2019, 05:33:45 PM
I'm following the thread, but holding out for whatever the F8N replacement will be incorporating similar tech.  F10 perhaps.

Out of necessity, I'm currently running my older model F8 like the new F6 is intended to be used.  Because of the high minimum-sensitivity of the microphone inputs and the inability of the F8 (non N version) to provide phantom through the lower-sensitivity line-inputs, combined with running relatively high-output condenser mics into all 8 channels (all requiring about the same input trim), I set the input trims to the lowest setting available across all channels, leave them that way and keep the advanced limiter switched on regardless of what material I'm recording.

Basically for quiet acoustic material the gain is correct and the limiter does not engage, and for loud stuff it does engage, works well, and I suspect I actually like the sound of it the advanced limiting routine on amplified material anyway.  I don't like having to rely on the limiter to keep levels under control, but this is the only way to avoid clipping on high SPL material with my microphones into the F8, and accomplishes that while sounding transparent.  I had been planning on migrating from the F8 to the F8N to correct the problem.. then the F6 appeared and I reassessed.  I currently feel little motivation to change things until 32-bit float recording tech or it's functional equivalent is included in an new 8 (maybe 10) channel recorder.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 25, 2019, 06:24:19 PM
I'm following the thread, but holding out for whatever the F8N replacement will be incorporating similar tech.  F10 perhaps.

Out of necessity, I'm currently running my older model F8 like the new F6 is intended to be used.  Because of the high minimum-sensitivity of the microphone inputs and the inability of the F8 (non N version) to provide phantom through the lower-sensitivity line-inputs, combined with running relatively high-output condenser mics into all 8 channels (all requiring about the same input trim), I set the input trims to the lowest setting available across all channels, leave them that way and keep the advanced limiter switched on regardless of what material I'm recording.

Basically for quiet acoustic material the gain is correct and the limiter does not engage, and for loud stuff it does engage, works well, and I suspect I actually like the sound of it the advanced limiting routine on amplified material anyway.  I don't like having to rely on the limiter to keep levels under control, but this is the only way to avoid clipping on high SPL material with my microphones into the F8, and accomplishes that while sounding transparent.  I had been planning on migrating from the F8 to the F8N to correct the problem.. then the F6 appeared and I reassessed.  I currently feel little motivation to change things until 32-bit float recording tech or it's functional equivalent is included in an new 8 (maybe 10) channel recorder.

That's good to hear the F8 limiter works well for you.  I haven't been able to get my hands on any of the Zoom F series yet.  My experiences with other digital limiters has always been very audible and annoying when they engage on the type of music I record, so I just don't use them at all, and try to set my levels as carefully as possible.  That's easier said than done with acoustic concerts that have a variety of vocal and instrumental groups and overall span a very wide dynamic range.

What I do right now most of the time is I use my DR-70D at the highest pot level of the lowest of 3 gain levels as a starting point, and I set up -12 dB safety tracks.  One of the two stereo pairs winds up being the better pair.  The worse situation is when I have clipping on the first set and have to go with the -12 set, I am usually amplifying 8-10 dB and the noise along with it.

Of course, that only gives me the ability to use two mics with that recorder.  That's fine if I am in a really good acoustic and can use a pair of DPAs in just the right spot, but that obviously doesn't happen all the time.  In other settings, I am unfortunately avoiding 4-mic arrays, even when I know they will be a better choice, because I only have 4 preamps to work with and I don't want to set my levels super-low because of self-noise being amplified in post.

At least twice a year, I record concerts that need two setups; one on stage and one on pit, and one of those events includes a huge combined choir which has both of those setups active at once.  For all those situations, I use my 70D as described, and then have the FP24/M10 rig.  That introduces other issues.  I have to set the FP24 very conservatively, the M10 has higher self-noise than I would like, and no safety tracks on that rig.  Oh, and a giant pain trying to split and manually sync individual pieces from those two separate recorders.

I almost bought an F8, but held off because I never have need for more than 6 preamps.

I'm glad I waited.  The F6 solves all of my issues for less money.

I will be interested to see what Zoom applies this setup to next.  The F8n didn't come out all that long ago, so I doubt they would rush to make an 8-preamp version.  Maybe they are planning something with a higher track count to get part of the way towards something like the Sound Devices Scorpio?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on June 25, 2019, 06:27:16 PM
The bottom line, as far as I am concerned, is that nobody actually knows what is happening inside this box as of yet. Nobody has really tested one. Maybe it's got some magical properties, maybe not. That remains to be seen.

More specifically, though:

I believe Paul's comment was in regards to 32-bit fixed; not floating.  They are not at all the same thing.  Please see the links I posted in Reply #25 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2300319#msg2300319).

I do agree with you on "hearable and measureable", but I believe the links in that post explain what the advantages of float-point recording are.

I am very familiar with floating point math, as I use it all the time in my work. In any event, while I wouldn't presume to speak for Paul, I interpreted his comment as meaning that 24-bit provides amply sufficient dynamic range to accurately capture any real world recording situation and that the increased dynamic range of 32-bit or 32-bit float is simply unnecessary.

It is not misleading at all.  He did one recording at an extremely low level, and another at extremely high level.  He showed that increasing the level of the very low-level recording in post did not increase the preamp noise, and then he demonstrated the other recording that had levels way above 0 dBFS could be lowered to within normal digital signal levels, and there was no clipping. 

This demonstrates that you never need to worry about your gain being set too high or too low in such a system.  In fact, the F6 preamp gain is fixed when in 32-bit float recording mode.  This means the preamp gain was identical for both the high-level and low-level recordings.  The difference in levels for the recorded tracks were made by the F6 post-ADC (the channel level knobs are faders; not gain trims in 32/float).

I'm assuming your use the of the word "gain" here doesn't really mean "gain" in the analog sense but digital signal "level".  Either way: changing the levels after conversion is exactly the point.  With this kind of system, you can do that without compromising the original quality.

Try either of those extreme recordings with similar post manipulation with a 24-bit (or 32-bit) fixed-point recording system.  If you have very low-noise mics and preamps, you might get similar results on the quiet recording, but definitely not on the loud one - it will be clipped all over the place.

As for Judd, he did not do "one recording at an extremely low level, and another at extremely high level". He did all of the recordings at a "normal" level and then, post conversion, used the (digital) faders to drastically alter the gain in 32-bit float. You can do the exact same thing in your DAW, which is almost certainly 32-bit floating point, and obtain the same results. The only difference is that he changed the gain in 32-bit float on the recorder and then reverted on the DAW.

I don't think most recordists, at least the kind frequenting this site, care about changing levels on the recorder post-conversion. As long as the ISOs are good, nobody cares about digital gain, hence the hoopla about gain structure on the MixPres.

Also, it is not true that this recorder is immune to clipping. They list the input overload point as 4 dBu. Certainly possible with the right combination of mics and source. Likewise, it is possible that the quietest parts of your recording can get lost in the ambient noise. In either event, a fancy sounding conversion process presumably won't help.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 25, 2019, 07:25:02 PM
good to hear the F8 limiter works well for you.  I haven't been able to get my hands on any of the Zoom F series yet.  My experiences with other digital limiters has always been very audible and annoying when they engage on the type of music I record, so I just don't use them at all, and try to set my levels as carefully as possible.  That's easier said than done with acoustic concerts that have a variety of vocal and instrumental groups and overall span a very wide dynamic range.

There is also a traditional digital limiter, but the Advanced Limiter is the improved limiter option to use. I think it was a newer F8N feature which the F8 benefited from via firmware update.  It's an DSP look ahead routine with an variable ratio and no traditional threshold setting.  Engaging it changes the meter display to read 0dB at what I presume is its initial engagement threshold and it presumably varies ratio as signal rises above that until reaching ∞:1 just prior to hitting the +20dB mark on the meters, correlating to 0dBFS.  So it sort of acts like a very wide soft-knee across its entire range of engagement.  Look ahead increases latency slightly by a few milliseconds (I don't care).  It has an adjustable max level setting it never crosses which I have set at 0dB (as tapers other would want to run it).  Setting that lower is presumably useful for helping to auto control a live mix when doing dialog film work or whatever.

When I discovered the F8's high minimum mic input sensitivity issue I thought I'd not be able to use the recorder at all, but upgraded the firmware and engaged the new advanced limiter simply to save my bacon at a the next few recording dates until I could swap it for an N-version.  But I was pleasantly surprised with it and found it far better than any traditional digital limiter I've come across.  It's really a different animal.  I figured I'd sill want to move to F8N to gain about 15dB more headroom, yet was happy enough with it that I would keep the advanced limiter engaged as a full-time over-prevention.  Running it a few more times I've tentatively decided I'm OK with it being actively engaged most of the time in high SPL situations, at least for now.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on July 01, 2019, 03:22:41 AM
Fascinating prospect, this recorder.  I can see the advantages of 32 bit floating, but I can also see that there has to be some kind of limitation imposed by the analog input. 

But as for setting levels for acoustic music, I never found this to be too big an issue.  After some weeks of using the particular MS mic preamp and mics that I used for almost everything, I realised that the level set on the preamp was almost the same for every recording, symphony orchestra or acoustic classical guitar.  I marked it carefully!  The 'normal' place to record an orchestra was of course significantly further back than for the guitar.  Therefore there was natural attentuation in the case of the orchestra, and so the input level was much the same.  Of course it got more complex with multimic, multitrack setups. 

But I'm probably digressing.  Looking forward to end user tests of the F6 under really challenging conditions in due course.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 01, 2019, 07:58:17 AM

But as for setting levels for acoustic music, I never found this to be too big an issue.  After some weeks of using the particular MS mic preamp and mics that I used for almost everything, I realised that the level set on the preamp was almost the same for every recording, symphony orchestra or acoustic classical guitar.  I marked it carefully!  The 'normal' place to record an orchestra was of course significantly further back than for the guitar.  Therefore there was natural attentuation in the case of the orchestra, and so the input level was much the same.  Of course it got more complex with multimic, multitrack setups. 

But I'm probably digressing.  Looking forward to end user tests of the F6 under really challenging conditions in due course.

My use case is perhaps a bit unusual.  While I do start with a "default" gain level on most recordings found through trial & error, the vast majority of what I record are concert performances where I do not have the chance to check levels ahead of time.  Very often I am conducting or performing in a group being recorded, so I am in a hurry to set up and then get on stage.  For the times I am not directly involved in the performance, I often do not know how the pieces are going to be performed in a dynamic sense, because I just have to show up, set up, and go.

For the two recording chains I have now, I have significant pros & cons:
- The DR-70D allows me a stereo pair with a set of safety tracks.  I find this is better than just setting the gain lower, as the preamps show their self-noise on quieter material where I need to boost the levels in post.
- The FP-24 is a very quiet preamp with gobs of gain, but unless I am very sure of the dynamics of the performance (and as I've said, I often am not) I have to set gain very conservatively so as to not overload the inputs on my recorder.

Because of everything mentioned above, I am very limited in track counts as mentioned earlier.

My hope is that the F6 solves these problems, so I can just worry about mic choices and placements, have the ability to use 4-6 mics if needed, and not worry at all about my levels.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 02, 2019, 01:07:54 PM
I emailed info@zoom-na.com today, asking if they could provide an updated on the release date beyond generally saying "July".  I received a response immediately, but the rep stated that he could not give me an update.

B&H is saying July 24 expected availability; Amazon and Sweetwater (the other two vendors linked from Zoom's official site) have no date listed.

I seem to remember seeing July 3 listed at B&H or somewhere else, but clearly that has changed.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on July 02, 2019, 02:02:53 PM
I emailed info@zoom-na.com today, asking if they could provide an updated on the release date beyond generally saying "July".  I received a response immediately, but the rep stated that he could not give me an update.

B&H is saying July 24 expected availability; Amazon and Sweetwater (the other two vendors linked from Zoom's official site) have no date listed.

I seem to remember seeing July 3 listed at B&H or somewhere else, but clearly that has changed.

Yes, B&H had July 3 listed until recently, then ran it out another three weeks (the original Zoom April announcement targeted a June release).  Hopin'....
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: spyder9 on July 02, 2019, 11:30:57 PM
If I buy this, I would go directly to recording in 32 bit floating.  Adobe Audition 3.0 is a million years old and it handles these files with ease.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on July 07, 2019, 09:37:55 PM

I've been watching B and H and after they changed the expected availability from July 3rd to July 24th I looked elsewhere.

Trew Audio had them listed so I put one in my cart - it allowed me to choose a shipping method and check out with no mention of any delay.

We'll see what happens tomorrow but unless something changes looks like I'll have one in hand this week.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 08, 2019, 11:50:03 AM

I've been watching B and H and after they changed the expected availability from July 3rd to July 24th I looked elsewhere.

Trew Audio had them listed so I put one in my cart - it allowed me to choose a shipping method and check out with no mention of any delay.

We'll see what happens tomorrow but unless something changes looks like I'll have one in hand this week.

I saw that at Trew also, and was also thinking of going ahead.  I still have $100 in Amazon cash, so I'm holding out there for now.

Please let us know what happens regarding your order.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: spyder9 on July 10, 2019, 09:30:14 PM
B & H Photo video has been upped.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auRCm4v20Sw
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: DSatz on July 11, 2019, 01:55:17 AM
Hi. I just noticed the technical nature of this thread, since I don't follow Zoom products in general. A few comments if I may.

First, neither floating point data storage nor gain-ranging by combining the output of two converters per channel is new in digital audio by any means. The combination may well be new in a consumer recorder, I dunno. But these techniques haven't been all that widely used in professional digital audio up to now, not because they're "so advanced," but simply because neither has offered sufficient advantage so far.

Neumann's digital microphones have gain-ranging A/D converters, for example, but they offer no wider dynamic range than comparable analog microphones that are connected to external preamps and converters--a comparison that can be made by anyone, since Neumann sells several of their models in both digital and analog versions. And for the record, those mikes all have digitally remote-controlled gain settings.

--Someone further up the thread surmised that 32-bit float must be a superior format because why else does so much audio software use it internally. The answer is that recent Intel CPUs can process four 32-bit floats in parallel for many mathematical operations, which makes DSP functions in the software much more efficient than linear PCM allows, if your CPU supports the needed instruction set.

This may not be so obvious, but the real issue is the level and behavior of the recorder's internal noise floor, so please keep that issue in mind from now on, OK?

The two techniques that we're talking about can be understood as the same thing in different guises. They both involve "tracking" a signal in real time (i.e. at the sampling frequency) and then, based on its voltage at a given instant, assigning it to a category of bigness or smallness, with a further number of bits indicating where the particular sample value fits within that category. The dual-ranging-converter arrangement is the more obvious of the two in how it works. 32-bit floating point (at least the IEEE 754 flavor that I assume they're using) is the same thing, just done with 256 overlapping levels instead of two.

Both technologies cause the noise floor of the recording channel to rise or fall in response to instantaneous signal levels. When the signal level goes up in magnitude (i.e. absolute value) and you move into a/the higher range, the noise floor of the channel rises along with it. When the signal comes back down, so does the channel's noise. As long as that noise floor is so low that you can't hear it (always, 100%, money-back guaranteed under all circumstances), then the fact that it's shifting up and down will be of no audible consequence.

But that's the big "if" right there. If the noise floor is ever audible--if any possible type of signal, or combination of settings and signals, can coax it out of hiding--then it will be heard to "pump" or "breathe" along with the momentary signal levels. That will make the program material sound gritty or dirty or some such unwanted thing (depending on implementation details such as pre-emphasis/de-emphasis).

It's an effect that used to be called "modulation noise" back in the era of analog tape, and it's one of those things that once you've noticed it, you can never un-notice it again. On wide-dynamic-range program material where the levels change quickly by large amounts, noise pumping "calls attention to itself" and is far more offensive to the ear than a steady, low level of broadband noise would have been. And there's no real way to get rid of those artifacts once you have them on your recording, except to cover them with high levels of steady noise, which is obviously undesirable as well.

So the only hope for this recorder to sound good is if its internal noise floor is so low that it is never, ever heard, even "out of the corners of one's ears." It's possible, but by no means guaranteed. The gain manipulation in the A/D converters and the floating point encoder means that noise caused by those elements of the system will constantly shift up and down. The floating-point encoding system actually doesn't worry me unless it's implemented in an almost unimaginably, bone-headedly stupid way that surely someone would have caught and fixed by now (except, the people at dbx back in the day claimed that they really didn't hear the noise breathing of their noise reduction systems, which was pretty horrible at times). And there are ways to get dual A/Ds to play nice together.

But it all comes down to the actual implementation. If that is as good as it possibly can be, then we'll have a recorder with no gain control, that by definition can't have a wider dynamic range than the best previous recorder that has a gain control. So before you fall too far in love with this design concept, I suggest that you imagine epoxying the gain control on your best existing recorder to a setting that you know will never allow overload. Do you think that it would always make recordings that are as quiet as you could have made if you'd set your levels specifically for each occasion? I don't think so. And in that case you shouldn't expect more from this recorder.

--best regards
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on July 11, 2019, 08:40:59 AM
Regarding DSatz's post about modulation noise, etc...

So does that rise and fall of the noise floor (I take it modulation noise is the same thing) also happen with a recorder that's recording at a set 16 or 24 bit, with the user able to adjust and set the gain?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 11, 2019, 09:08:38 AM
Thanks for joining the discussion.  This is precisely the insight we've needed in this discussion.

To summarize, with regards to the use of the recorder:  The tradeoff for never having to manually adjust input levels is the possibility of audible noise floor modulation on highly dynamic material.. which if audible is neither pleasant sounding nor easily remedied afterward.
^
Is that accurate?


Once this recorder is available, what might an appropriate test for audibility of noise floor modulation consist of?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 11, 2019, 09:14:53 AM
So does that rise and fall of the noise floor (I take it modulation noise is the same thing) also happen with a recorder that's recording at a set 16 or 24 bit, with the user able to adjust and set the gain?

In a digital recorder with a non-autoranging analog to digital converter (ADC), the noise floor of the ADC remains constant.  The noise-floor of the preamp section does vary with input trim/gain setting, but will not vary during the record unless the input tim/gain is changed during the recording.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on July 11, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
So does that rise and fall of the noise floor (I take it modulation noise is the same thing) also happen with a recorder that's recording at a set 16 or 24 bit, with the user able to adjust and set the gain?

In a digital recorder with a non-autoranging analog to digital converter (ADC), the noise floor of the ADC remains constant.  The noise-floor of the preamp section does vary with input trim/gain setting, but will not vary during the record unless the input tim/gain is changed during the recording.

That's what I suspected, and it makes sense.  Thanks for clarifying.

Is it possible to use the F6 like a "normal" recorder so that the gain is manually set and then it stays there, and records at a set 16 or 24 bit?  I'd assume so but I haven't been following the details very closely.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 11, 2019, 09:47:57 AM
Yes, apparently it can also record 16 or 24 bit (with manually set input trim) and 32-bit floating-point simultaneously.

Screen capture from the user manual, p30-
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 11, 2019, 09:49:47 AM
..and copied from p.25 (Adjusting input levels)

Quote
• This can be set in a range from +12 to +75 dB when the input source is
set to Mic, from –8 to +55 dB when set to Line, and from –35 to +30 dB
when set to USB.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 11, 2019, 12:09:54 PM
Thanks for joining the discussion.  This is precisely the insight we've needed in this discussion.

To summarize, with regards to the use of the recorder:  The tradeoff for never having to manually adjust input levels is the possibility of audible noise floor modulation on highly dynamic material.. which if audible is neither pleasant sounding nor easily remedied afterward.
^
Is that accurate?


Once this recorder is available, what might an appropriate test for audibility of noise floor modulation consist of?

DSatz - A second thanks from me.  I hadn't considered the change in internal noise level being audible, as I have no experience listening to auto-ranging dual ADCs.  Your post certainly has caused me to temper my enthusiasm until there are some real-world tests with music recording.

I wonder if these shifts in self-noise will be audible in the context of the ambient noise for a live recording, even classical material.  Again, I suppose it all comes down to the implementation, as you say.

It seems a professional recording studio would be the best place to test this behavior, using some top-level mics with high sensitivity and low self-noise. 
Being a pianist myself, I am thinking of a few choice pieces of Chopin and Beethoven that would make excellent test material.   Put up a nice Steinway D, and a pair of Josephson C617s or DPA 4041s, and that should reveal all.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: DSatz on July 11, 2019, 01:29:10 PM
gutbucket asked:

> Once this recorder is available, what might an appropriate test for audibility of noise floor modulation consist of?

I'm thinking back to some failures that are engraved in my conscience because of times when I experimented too boldly with noise reduction systems during live recordings. One of the worst--from 40 years ago now--was in Beethoven's fourth piano concerto. The second movement starts with a short, bold, attention-grabbing tone played in octaves by the entire string section. It comes out of silence and fades back to silence for about a second before going on. I remember hearing tape hiss trail off from that tone as it decayed, because I'd set way too low a level on analog tape. I should have raised the gain from the mikes by about 20 dB (!) before the Telefunken telcom c4 noise reduction unit, or else by about 12 dB after it. But I was also playing in the orchestra that night and couldn't watch levels. So I guessed conservatively while setting up, and I guessed wrong.

So the test that I'd want to make would be: Make a source recording of just one tone, "doubled" across several octaves, with a very quiet background. Then record it onto the Zoom multiple times--starting at the highest possible modulation level on the Zoom, then padding the source signal down 6 or 10 dB at a time until the lowest possible recorded level is reached. Then rewind and listen to each recording at fairly high volume, listening for noise artifacts before and after the tone.

A digital device can have much shorter time constants than an analog noise reduction system, so I would expect better results from the Zoom. But I would be the most concerned in the crossover region between the two A/D converters, because switching between them probably creates the largest possible noise floor change in this type of system.

--best regards
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 11, 2019, 04:57:51 PM
gutbucket asked:

> Once this recorder is available, what might an appropriate test for audibility of noise floor modulation consist of?

I'm thinking back to some failures that are engraved in my conscience because of times when I experimented too boldly with noise reduction systems during live recordings. One of the worst--from 40 years ago now--was in Beethoven's fourth piano concerto. The second movement starts with a short, bold, attention-grabbing tone played in octaves by the entire string section. It comes out of silence and fades back to silence for about a second before going on. I remember hearing tape hiss trail off from that tone as it decayed, because I'd set way too low a level on analog tape. I should have raised the gain from the mikes by about 20 dB (!) before the Telefunken telcom c4 noise reduction unit, or else by about 12 dB after it. But I was also playing in the orchestra that night and couldn't watch levels. So I guessed conservatively while setting up, and I guessed wrong.

So the test that I'd want to make would be: Make a source recording of just one tone, "doubled" across several octaves, with a very quiet background. Then record it onto the Zoom multiple times--starting at the highest possible modulation level on the Zoom, then padding the source signal down 6 or 10 dB at a time until the lowest possible recorded level is reached. Then rewind and listen to each recording at fairly high volume, listening for noise artifacts before and after the tone.

A digital device can have much shorter time constants than an analog noise reduction system, so I would expect better results from the Zoom. But I would be the most concerned in the crossover region between the two A/D converters, because switching between them probably creates the largest possible noise floor change in this type of system.

--best regards

Well, that's a much more scientific test than I was thinking.  I was thinking of using Beethoven Piano Sonata Op. 110, or Chopin Ballade No. 4, among other pieces.  If an entire orchestra were available, I would pick the very beginnings of Mahler's 2nd, 3rd, or 5th symphonies.

I don't quite understand why you would want a tone doubled across multiple octaves.  How would this make any difference, as opposed to a single tone?

The situation you describe where you are both recording and performing is one I find myself in more often than not, which is why the whole idea of not worrying about levels and safety tracks makes the idea of this dual ADC / float point setup attractive to me.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on July 11, 2019, 05:27:57 PM

So after I ordered the F6 Trew Audio sent me an email requesting that I send them a copy of my drivers license and picture of the front and back of my credit card which I thought was really strange.

Gave the Nashville location a call and the guy told me they get a lot of fraudulent CC charges for easy to resell high dollar gear so they have a layer of protection. Since I called and talked to them and had the order number handy they let me proceed with my order. 

Then they told me it was back ordered until the end of the month  :facepalm:

I still have one ordered through them and look forward to giving it a go later on this month. I should have an opportunity to do some comps in a live setting right after I get my hands on it.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 11, 2019, 09:06:55 PM

So after I ordered the F6 Trew Audio sent me an email requesting that I send them a copy of my drivers license and picture of the front and back of my credit card which I thought was really strange.

Gave the Nashville location a call and the guy told me they get a lot of fraudulent CC charges for easy to resell high dollar gear so they have a layer of protection. Since I called and talked to them and had the order number handy they let me proceed with my order. 

Then they told me it was back ordered until the end of the month  :facepalm:

I still have one ordered through them and look forward to giving it a go later on this month. I should have an opportunity to do some comps in a live setting right after I get my hands on it.

I'm glad you didn't send them the pictures they requested.  That would have been a huge risk for fraud.  I can't believe they would even ask for something so ridiculous.  One email, ready-made for easy identity theft.


I suppose the July 24th posted date from B&H is what we're going with now.  This unit was supposed to be out in June.  I wonder if they are having manufacturing issues, or if the pre-orders were more than what they expected?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on July 12, 2019, 04:55:07 AM
But it all comes down to the actual implementation. If that is as good as it possibly can be, then we'll have a recorder with no gain control, that by definition can't have a wider dynamic range than the best previous recorder that has a gain control. So before you fall too far in love with this design concept, I suggest that you imagine epoxying the gain control on your best existing recorder to a setting that you know will never allow overload. Do you think that it would always make recordings that are as quiet as you could have made if you'd set your levels specifically for each occasion? I don't think so. And in that case you shouldn't expect more from this recorder.
a much more technical way of saying what many of us have been saying... its a gimmick that offers no real advantage for our application, as any input has a fixed maximum headroom between noise floor, and maximum input level, and any attempts to skirt this with digital fuckery are in the end... digital fuckery.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on July 12, 2019, 04:58:56 AM
Regarding DSatz's post about modulation noise, etc...

So does that rise and fall of the noise floor (I take it modulation noise is the same thing) also happen with a recorder that's recording at a set 16 or 24 bit, with the user able to adjust and set the gain?

not with gain set to a fixed level. what he describes is an artifact of auto-level feature. its analogous to when you see a youtube someone shoots at a concert which sounds fine at low levels but as soon as it gets loud it automatically compresses the sound horrendously so as to not overload the phone. Which is better than horrible brickwalling, but also a clearly audible artifact
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on July 12, 2019, 05:05:41 AM

So after I ordered the F6 Trew Audio sent me an email requesting that I send them a copy of my drivers license and picture of the front and back of my credit card which I thought was really strange.


i put in an offer on some consignment gear with them earlier in the month, which they accepted and we agreed that they would invoice me via paypal. they then ghosted me for a week before insisting i send them all that extra info and also requiring me to fill out scan, and email a credit card authorization form. I told them to beat it as i thought it was highly unprofessional to leave me hanging so long, and that i dont want the gear bad enough to be sending my CC info unsecurely to god knows who.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on July 12, 2019, 01:54:24 PM
My impression of the design of this thing (based only on the description given by the Zoom rep) is as follows:
The analog "front end" of this deck has 2 separate preamps per input. The 2 preamps are scaled differently in gain, (1 high, 1 low)) each feeding a 32 bit convertor. These preamps are selectable in 2 gain ranges, depending on the input setting of "line" or "mic"
The total input gain range for either "mic" or "line"  setting has sufficient bandwidth such that no mic or line level source would clip the analog stage. The input device itself would clip before the recorder does. This is why no input gain adjustment is needed.
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file. The advantage to this design is that the low amplitude signals have much higher resolution because it is being converted directly to 32 bit, rather that residing in the lower end of a 24 or 16 bit ADC.
In terms of noise, using this approach certainly reduces noise in the recorder itself. Self noise from a mic will still be there regardless, especially noticeable when the mic is exposed to very low SPL's.
The advantages I see in this machine for field recording is the elimination of clipping in the recorder, and the noise reduction of highly dynamic sound sources. I look forward to being able to plug in a pair of mics or line level device, hit record and let the thing eat with no worry about gain setting. HUGE advantage.  "Digital fuckery"? I don't think so. I think this innovation was likely on the forefront anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes the standard in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 12, 2019, 02:04:50 PM
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file.

Not averaged or summed but switched.  It is the transparency of the switching between converter streams which is being questioned.

If it is indeed inaudible, the convenience the elimination of trim adjustment represents will be more helpful to tapers than to professional music recordists who can more easily assume or test for correct level setting in advance.   
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on July 12, 2019, 02:29:44 PM
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file.

Not averaged or summed but switched.  It is the transparency of the switching between converter streams which is being questioned.

If it is indeed inaudible, the convenience the elimination of trim adjustment represents will be more helpful to tapers than to professional music recordists who can more easily assume or test for correct level setting in advance.

interesting.  where did you see this? I'd like more information
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 12, 2019, 05:22:02 PM
It is how previous implementations by other manufacturers which achieve the same end result work (Neumann digital mics, Zaxcom "NeverClip", etc.).. and, lacking clear technical information from Zoom to the contrary, the assumed way the F6 works as well.  Without testing to try and determine how it is doing it and if it does introduce a problem or not, this kind of speculation is the best we have to go on at this point.

I have no doubt the Zoom rep you spoke with is well versed on user-level functionality of the recorder, but I doubt he really knows how it is doing this under the hood, nor well versed on the possible repercussions being discussed above.  In any case, is not in a Zoom rep's interest to highlight these kind of potential problems in a yet to be released new product.

As for myself (acknowledging that the border between digital fuckery and digital blessings is a fine line, more gerrymandered than straight) I'm withholding judgement until we have more information.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on July 12, 2019, 06:34:29 PM
Ah ok! Yes a lot of speculation going on. It will be interesting to see how well this works
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on July 12, 2019, 07:19:57 PM
The dual convertors are then averaged or summed to a single 32 bit file.

Not averaged or summed but switched.  It is the transparency of the switching between converter streams which is being questioned.

If it is indeed inaudible, the convenience the elimination of trim adjustment represents will be more helpful to tapers than to professional music recordists who can more easily assume or test for correct level setting in advance.

is this similar to the crossover distortion seen in class B amps?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on July 15, 2019, 03:03:56 PM
I don't think so.  That's switching between output devices at every zero crossing of the signal.  Whereas this is presumably switching between ADCs when the signal level varies between low sensitivity and high sensitivity modes.   
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: udovdh on July 16, 2019, 03:51:22 AM
Any gossip on this dual-ADC F6 technology appearing in a device with jack inputs? ('prosumer')
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on July 22, 2019, 02:49:49 PM
Just got an email from B&H:

"Unfortunately, the manufacturer has informed us that this item has been delayed until 10-01-2019"

Bummer.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 22, 2019, 03:15:39 PM
Just got an email from B&H:

"Unfortunately, the manufacturer has informed us that this item has been delayed until 10-01-2019"

Bummer.

That stinks.  Thanks for keeping us in the loop, though.  That's a significant delay, after the initial release date was supposed to be June.  I wonder if there is a serious problem in manufacturing.

I also hope everyone that pre-ordered gets their money back.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on July 22, 2019, 05:41:11 PM

^ Just got off the phone with Trew Nashville and they said that it would not surprise them at all if it got pushed back even farther than October. He mentioned Zoom and Rode as the worst offenders when it came to the time difference between showing a product at NAB and getting them on the shelf.

I canceled my order. I may get one when it's not a pain to have one in hand but I need something to replace my Marantz like yesterday.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 23, 2019, 06:45:37 AM
Finally, an explanation on the delay from Zoom:

https://zoom.co.jp/news/F6_production-delay (https://zoom.co.jp/news/F6_production-delay)

Quote
ZOOM F6 PRODUCTION DELAY

During our initial production for the F6 Field Recorder, we discovered a mechanical component that needed modification to assure consistent, overall durability. As a result, delivery of the F6 Field Recorder has been rescheduled for later in the Fall/Winter of 2019.

At Zoom we have always been committed to providing the highest quality products possible. We apologize for the delay and appreciate your patience and understanding.


This item was posted July 30, but only to the Zoom Japan site.  The news feed on Zoom North America does not include this.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: DSatz on August 29, 2019, 04:35:59 PM
Sound Devices has just announced a series II of their "MixPre" 3/6/10 recorders, also featuring 32-bit float data storage, and unfortunately, publicized in the same misleading way as Zoom. See https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-float-files-explained/ .

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. They've taken the strongest link and made it much, much stronger. (Hooray!)

Now if only their recorders' inputs could just have a slightly lower noise floor--a mere 600 dB improvement would nearly suffice--and headroom that's correspondingly on the high side, then we could take advantage of these improvements. Just be sure to refrigerate your less-than-one-Ohm quantum microphones to less than 1 Kelvin (0 Kelvins being absolute zero temperature) from now on--this should add very little bulk to a hat for stealth recording. Also, if your microphones can take a direct lightning strike and the recorder's inputs still don't come close to clipping, then you're good to go.

Withering sarcasm aside, the example that they give of a recorded peak that's above 0 dBFS and is still preserved unclipped in the floating-point sound file, is possible only to the extent that the recorder's input circuitry (mike or line preamps) and a/d converters don't overload and clip. And good recorders do overload "gracefully" up to a point.

But defining that point is a critical engineering decision. If the circuit designer allows (say) 6 dB of overload without producing ugly-sounding output, that is not for free--it comes at the expense of the lower noise floor that the recorder could otherwise have had. It's a "be careful what you ask for--you may get it" type of situation.

Executive summary: This may be considered progress of a kind, but it still matters what levels you set when you record, for the same reasons as ever.

--best regards
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 29, 2019, 05:51:39 PM
DSatz,

I appreciate your insights into this (and your withering sarcasm).  I, and some others, may have been grossly inaccurate in saying "levels don't matter" with 32-bit float recording.  It might be better to say that 32-bit float might (we shall see) be better at saving your bacon where you have set levels somewhat too high (with peaks going above 0 dBFS) or too low.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 29, 2019, 05:54:35 PM
I also find it extremely ironic that Paul Issacs from from Sound Devices was openly critical on this board of the Zoom F6 and its 32-bit float recording, yet here we are now with a product from them that does the same exact thing.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: DSatz on August 29, 2019, 08:27:32 PM
> It might be better to say that 32-bit float might (we shall see) be better at saving your bacon where you have set levels somewhat too high (with peaks going above 0 dBFS) ...

Among the design choices that they could make, the first part of your statement could indeed come true; it would be rather foolish of them to choose otherwise, after all the hype. But whenever you can push above the nominal 0 level and still preserve the input waveform, that extra headroom above 0 (as I said before) can't be cost-free.

> ... or too low.

I don't believe that can be true, since 24-bit linear PCM encoding has never, in itself, determined the noise floor of any converter.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 29, 2019, 09:12:15 PM
> ... or too low.

I don't believe that can be true, since 24-bit linear PCM encoding has never, in itself, determined the noise floor of any converter.

Well, I am curious what you have to say about the assertion the Zoom rep makes at the marked section of this video.  This has nothing to do with noisefloor, but available resolution when recording very low levels in fixed vs. floating point files.  I don't fully understand the math behind it; perhaps you do.
https://youtu.be/VR-kvI7Gbl0?t=140 (https://youtu.be/VR-kvI7Gbl0?t=140)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on August 29, 2019, 10:08:17 PM
if you know your gear, you can do that with any mic by setting the levels properly

for example, lets say that you are recording a concert with peaks at 110 dB with a CMC64

we want to be conservative so 120 dB corresponds to -6dBU

nay, lets be extra conservative, and set it to 110 dB = -12 dBU

lets be REALLY REALLY conservative and set levels so 110 dB = -20 dBU

the 15 dB self noise of the mic (which is well below crowd noise) would be at the -115 dB level on your recorder, which is still 15 dB above the 130 dB EIN of that input, and 5 dB above the noise of the converter

so lets assume that we achieve nirvana on that evening. For a brief moment, the crowd (normally around -70 dBU) is absolutely silent for a moment, AND the venue HVAC system (normally -85 dbU) shuts down. that fly farting at 15 db sound level (which you MIGHT hear if you have the non-tinnitus'd ears of a child), will be captured on your recording

please note that this scenario leaves an extra 20 dB of headroom for the drunk biker that pulls your mic stand down to sing vocals directly into your mics during the encore. its crazy but we are already insanely blessed with modern tech for our purpose. everything else is diminishing returns to an extent
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Paul Isaacs on August 29, 2019, 11:16:32 PM
I also find it extremely ironic that Paul Issacs from from Sound Devices was openly critical on this board of the Zoom F6 and its 32-bit float recording, yet here we are now with a product from them that does the same exact thing.

Rather than copy my response, I'm linking to this other thread ...
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191640.msg2309438#msg2309438
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on August 30, 2019, 07:16:25 AM
"A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. They've taken the strongest link and made it much, much stronger."

That to me seems to be the nub of the thing.

A 16 bit recording doesn't have the dynamic range of a very high quality mic & preamp (I'm open to correction).  Therefore we needed 24 bits.  That still doesn't have the dynamic range of that mic/preamp (really?).  Therefore we need more bits, and 32 bits floating point is as good as it will ever get and exceeds the dynamic range of any mic/preamp.  And it may mean that setting digital levels becomes non-critical.  We still need to get the analog side correctly set.

Is that an accurate summary of the whole deal, in as few words as possible?

Having said all that, when I listen back to the digital classical recordings I made over a great many years - from I think 1983 onwards - I don't ever think to myself, "That would have been better with more bits."  While there's something to be said for obtaining the very best fidelity technically possible in a recording, maybe that's of interest to only a small group of engineers and audiophiles, and 99% of the audience of the recording (which in the case of almost any classical recording is a pretty small group of people anyway) won't actually give a damn.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on August 30, 2019, 08:57:28 AM
I also find it extremely ironic that Paul Issacs from from Sound Devices was openly critical on this board of the Zoom F6 and its 32-bit float recording, yet here we are now with a product from them that does the same exact thing.

Rather than copy my response, I'm linking to this other thread ...
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191640.msg2309438#msg2309438

This:

"3) 32-bit float offers precision representation equally across the entire dynamic range. With traditional 24-bit fixed-point, super quiet signals may typically be just loud enough to have the lowest 4-8 bits (of the 24 available) be active - not great resolution at all. With floating point, even those super low level signals are represented by a full array of bits, thus maintaining accuracy at all levels. When you now normalize this low level signal back to 0dBFS, the precision is still there."

Yes.   This is why I have an F6 on order and am about to switch to mixpre II.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on August 30, 2019, 01:08:30 PM
I don't want to double-post, but to paraphrase what I just posted in that other thread-

How does that square with the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem? Doesn't that contradict basic digital signal theory?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: morst on August 30, 2019, 02:06:38 PM
I don't want to double-post, but to paraphrase what I just posted in that other thread-
How does that square with the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem? Doesn't that contradict basic digital signal theory?
double posting to echo my reply in the other thread.


Nyquist says it is a perfect representation and that's good enough for me. A quiet signal should not require many bits to represent accurately.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 23, 2019, 06:29:31 PM
We might finally have an actual release date in the near future.

B&H says "Beginning of October 2019 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1473324-REG/zoom_zf6_f6_multitrack_field_recorder.html)".
Amazon says "In stock on October 21, 2019 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S63K5N9)".
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: IronFilm on September 26, 2019, 12:12:01 AM
Interesting to read.
It do have some analog/digital hybrid limiters to handle the inputs in 24 bit mode.

Advanced Look-Ahead Hybrid Limiters
When recording in 24-bit, the F6 uses advanced look-ahead hybrid limiters to provide overload protection. By adding a 1-millisecond delay, the limiters “look ahead” anticipating clipping before it’s recorded.


I could imagine this would be a two channel dream if they slashed the height with 2/3. 😃

Zoom F8n does this as well!

I would've liked it to support dual SD cards like the F4 and F8, but seeing how small it is I guess they wouldn't fit.

Wish they had a MicroSD there as well with the SD, the MicroSD could be used as a back up
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on September 27, 2019, 12:10:50 PM
We might finally have an actual release date in the near future.

B&H says "Beginning of October 2019 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1473324-REG/zoom_zf6_f6_multitrack_field_recorder.html)".
Amazon says "In stock on October 21, 2019 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S63K5N9)".
B & H are shipping the deck as of today. Mine arrives Tuesday. I'm breaking in the MixPre6 II this weekend at Gov't Mule. I guess it never rains but pours. Not that I'm complaining  ;D
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 27, 2019, 06:24:33 PM
We might finally have an actual release date in the near future.

B&H says "Beginning of October 2019 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1473324-REG/zoom_zf6_f6_multitrack_field_recorder.html)".
Amazon says "In stock on October 21, 2019 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07S63K5N9)".
B & H are shipping the deck as of today. Mine arrives Tuesday. I'm breaking in the MixPre6 II this weekend at Gov't Mule. I guess it never rains but pours. Not that I'm complaining  ;D

Please give us a full report and some samples, if you can.

I might have to give Sweetwater another call.  I talked to a rep today and he said the last memo he saw was that their shipment wasn't arriving until sometime in November.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 30, 2019, 08:30:00 PM
My F6 is on the way from Sweetwater.   ;D

Despite what it says on their website, Sweetwater is getting in units a few at a time.  I highly recommend you call my sales rep, who I have dealt with several times over the year and is outstanding.  He knew I wanted one right away, and was able to grab one from the units that just came in.

Jason Koons
800-222-4700
ext. 1389

Marching band competition on 10/12 and chamber choir concert on 10/13 will be a good weekend to put it through its paces.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 01, 2019, 04:21:56 PM
My F6 is on the way from Sweetwater.   ;D

Despite what it says on their website, Sweetwater is getting in units a few at a time.  I highly recommend you call my sales rep, who I have dealt with several times over the year and is outstanding.  He knew I wanted one right away, and was able to grab one from the units that just came in.

Jason Koons
800-222-4700
ext. 1389

Marching band competition on 10/12 and chamber choir concert on 10/13 will be a good weekend to put it through its paces.
Mine arrived this morning. Despite all the proclamations of how small it is, I was surprised at how small it is... ;D
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 01, 2019, 07:21:16 PM
[playing the straight-man]  How small is it?

 ;)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 02, 2019, 07:51:25 AM
Small  ;D
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 02, 2019, 09:13:18 AM
Huge hand!

Seriously, that thing does appear considerably smaller than I imagined it to be.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on October 02, 2019, 10:29:21 AM
^ I got to handle one for a couple of minutes at a trade show in Amsterdam two weeks ago. It was smaller than I expected as well; it is about the same size as a MixPre-6. Similar depth, but narrower and taller. The build quality seemed pretty good, although the knobs were a little mushy feeling. I thought the front panel controls were kind of cramped, however, I would probably get used to that quickly. If I needed six XLRs, I would be seriously considering this recorder...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 02, 2019, 07:37:06 PM
Whoa.  It's the internet kitten meme of audio recorders!  Mine is arriving tomorrow, and I expected small, but not that small.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 02, 2019, 08:00:47 PM
Half-wondering if I could mod it into a Western-style belt-buckle for some  >:D Rodeo ridin'
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 02, 2019, 08:04:01 PM
Half-wondering if I could mod it into a Western-style belt-buckle for some  >:D Rodeo ridin'

Look at those bottom rails.  I think it would work.

It's the modern-day equivalent of Flava Flav's clock necklace.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 02, 2019, 08:07:57 PM
Pair it with an XLR mic cable belt that plugs in both sides.  Beats the old knotted extension cord around the waist to holding up the pants.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 02, 2019, 08:52:10 PM
Let's not get carried away.  It might work as a belt buckle for Andre the Giant, but nobody smaller.

On the other hand, Zoom clearly has a lot of confidence in 32 bit float.  If you record in that mode (without parallel 24 or 16 bit fixed recording) YOU CAN'T SET THE TRIM AT ALL.  The knobs let you fade the input for L/R mix, but no way to do anything to the ISO tracks in 32 bit float, it's disabled in the menu.

I have run the Mixpre 6 II three times, you can set trim in the menu since the knobs on that machine also do fading.  But I have been getting mostly piano recitals to record, setting gain optimally for those in the hall where I record is something I have done hundreds of times, so no real test of the range.  I will run the F6 on a piano recital Friday, probably in dual mode so I can use the "right" gain settings, if I feel confident enough I might try it in straight 32 bit float and pray the thing works as well as Zoom thinks it does.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 02, 2019, 09:38:24 PM
On the other hand, Zoom clearly has a lot of confidence in 32 bit float.  If you record in that mode (without parallel 24 or 16 bit fixed recording) YOU CAN'T SET THE TRIM AT ALL.  The knobs let you fade the input for L/R mix, but no way to do anything to the ISO tracks in 32 bit float, it's disabled in the menu.

I have run the Mixpre 6 II three times, you can set trim in the menu since the knobs on that machine also do fading.  But I have been getting mostly piano recitals to record, setting gain optimally for those in the hall where I record is something I have done hundreds of times, so no real test of the range.  I will run the F6 on a piano recital Friday, probably in dual mode so I can use the "right" gain settings, if I feel confident enough I might try it in straight 32 bit float and pray the thing works as well as Zoom thinks it does.

Hmm, as a fellow classical recording person, that's a bit concerning, if only because the max mic input level on the F6 is nowhere near as high as that on the MixPre II.  Only time will tell if they set the fixed gain in that mode low enough that a really hot mic level won't clip it.

This seems like the type of thing that could be implemented in a firmware update, if it turns out to be a problem.

I would love to hear some samples from your session.  May I ask what mics you will be using?

If I were you, I would only risk going all-in on the 32 bit floating mode (that cannot be adjusted) after a few test runs in dual mode, and some critical examination of the 32-bit tracks in post.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 02, 2019, 09:59:01 PM
I will likely run dual, and compare the float files to the 24 bit fixed (and the L/R mix).  I use Josephson C617 omnis (with the optional LD caps) on a Jecklin Disc near the foot of the Steinway.

To my ears, the Zoom F8n preamps are preferable to the SD722 and 633, and even (so far) to the MixPre 6 II, but that's rank heresy I know.  I want to see how the F6 stacks up, but I'm not really sure at this point why it even HAS preamps.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 03, 2019, 09:48:47 AM
Just kidding on the belt buckle.  'Though they do grow large in Texas.

Jeff- have you experienced any problems or concerns running the Josephson's into the F8n with loud sources?  They are quite sensitive, no?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 03, 2019, 06:33:42 PM
I will likely run dual, and compare the float files to the 24 bit fixed (and the L/R mix).  I use Josephson C617 omnis (with the optional LD caps) on a Jecklin Disc near the foot of the Steinway.

To my ears, the Zoom F8n preamps are preferable to the SD722 and 633, and even (so far) to the MixPre 6 II, but that's rank heresy I know.  I want to see how the F6 stacks up, but I'm not really sure at this point why it even HAS preamps.

Jeff

Oh, now I'm really jealous.  Those mics are ones I've lusted after for quite some time, after hearing apotheosis's recordings done with them on GS.

Is your Jecklin setup generally at the Decca Tail position?  Every time I hear a recording made that way with good instrument, good mics, and in a good hall, it sounds great.  Never seen it done baffled though.  Clearly you get more stereo separation that way.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 03, 2019, 09:47:34 PM


Jeff- have you experienced any problems or concerns running the Josephson's into the F8n with loud sources?  They are quite sensitive, no?

The Josephson 617s are indeed very hot running mics.  With them about 6' up and maybe 2 feet from the piano I have been running gain of 13-16 dB on the F8n (Schoeps mics on string groups generally take 35-40 dB gain), depending on the pieces played and the aggressiveness of the pianist.  This leaves plenty of headroom (aiming for ~4 dB boost in post).  Pianos up that close are loud, but an orchestra with brass might stress the input limits.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 04, 2019, 06:10:57 AM


Jeff- have you experienced any problems or concerns running the Josephson's into the F8n with loud sources?  They are quite sensitive, no?

The Josephson 617s are indeed very hot running mics.  With them about 6' up and maybe 2 feet from the piano I have been running gain of 13-16 dB on the F8n (Schoeps mics on string groups generally take 35-40 dB gain), depending on the pieces played and the aggressiveness of the pianist.  This leaves plenty of headroom (aiming for ~4 dB boost in post).  Pianos up that close are loud, but an orchestra with brass might stress the input limits.

Jeff

Looking at the C617set specs...

They are truly one of the most sensitive mics around, at 66 mV/Pa, and the max output level for <1 % THD is +7 dBV, which comes out to +9.2 dBu.  So, yeah, these things run HOT, and are definitely capable of clipping the F6.  I think you have a good torture-test scenario for the F6 mic inputs.

Maybe if you get the chance to do a large orchestra and choir performing Carmina Burana or the Verdi Requiem that would be even more stressful.  Lots of active percussion and brass.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on October 04, 2019, 08:16:29 AM
I've said before that in my classical recording days, I gradually came to the conclusion that there is only one level.  By that I mean that when using my normal Sennheiser MKH MS rig into my Sennheiser MS preamp, the gain on the preamp always seemed set the same - I put a small red mark on the magic position.  This was due to the phenomenon that a solo guitar recorded at the sort of distance you'd record a solo guitar at, tended to be as loud as a symphony orchestra at a rather greater distance.  OK, there were exceptions, but I had a reputation of spending virtually no time before sessions with messing around with levels, though it was of course necessary to ensure the actual balance was correct.  So maybe they need chiefly to think in terms of gain being preset to allow for the gamut of mic sensitivities, rather than for sound sources.

As for the size of the little chap - looks like a big brother of the humble F1, but indeed not that big a brother.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on October 04, 2019, 08:34:53 AM
That makes sense to me assuming you are doing the same general type of capture all the time.  I expect differences when i move from that type to close distance multitrack work, drums versus strings, etc.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 04, 2019, 08:38:30 PM
My F6 came today.  No mics connected yet; I just tested my SD card and played with the functions.

First impressions:

1. So much smaller than I expected.  I mounted a 6800 mAh L-mount battery, and it's almost half the depth of the F6!
2. Timecode Free Run is the default on first boot, which may make you think you pressed REC until you realize it's the TC running.
3. Build and finish quality appears to be excellent.  Quite a heft to it, even without the internal batteries installed.
4. Buttons and knobs are indeed tiny, but easy to use.  Menu system is intuitive, more so than any other recorder I have used.
5. Channel Link and Trim Link are two separate menu items.  Not sure why, but they are easy to set.
6. Hooray for NO touch screen!!!  The screen itself is bright and easy to read, even though it is very small.
7. It has a HOLD function (push in & hold volume knob) for which you can set what it does and does not lock.  This is a killer feature.
8. The form factor is so different than anything else, especially with the L-mount battery.  Expect to totally reconfigure your recording bag.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 04, 2019, 09:42:51 PM


Jeff- have you experienced any problems or concerns running the Josephson's into the F8n with loud sources?  They are quite sensitive, no?

The Josephson 617s are indeed very hot running mics.  With them about 6' up and maybe 2 feet from the piano I have been running gain of 13-16 dB on the F8n (Schoeps mics on string groups generally take 35-40 dB gain), depending on the pieces played and the aggressiveness of the pianist.  This leaves plenty of headroom (aiming for ~4 dB boost in post).  Pianos up that close are loud, but an orchestra with brass might stress the input limits.

Jeff

Jeff, I've just been playing around with my F6 and discovered...

You CAN adjust recording levels when set to 32-bit float point!


MENU > REC > MODE > set to Float (32bit)*

MENU > INPUT > TRACK KNOB > change to REC LEVEL

The default is Reference Level, which does not allow you to adjust the ISO track level with the trim pots; just the L/R downmix as you described.

Changing this setting to REC LEVEL allows you to adjust from -60 to +60 dB.

I verified that I was set to 32-bit float mode only, and NOT dual 24/32.

Also verified in post - I recorded a quick speech test with a pair of CM3s at close range, alternating with max and min trim setting.  In iZotope RX, the portions recorded at max were peaking at +6 dB; those recorded at minimum were so low they didn't even register on the meters or waveform view.  The portions recorded at max I lowered -12 dB, and the portion recorded at minimum needed a boost of +110 dB to match.  See screenshots.

EDIT: I can't say for sure if this is adjusting mic preamp gain or the level at some other point in the chain.  Yes I can: According to the block diagrams in the menu, all level adjustments in 32-bit float mode are happening post-ADC.  That makes this whole discussion about level adjustment in this mode largely irrelevant, because preamp gain is fixed in that mode.What I can say is that it does so without any change in background noise level.  If it is adjusting the preamps, then these preamps are dead quiet.  The sample I recorded with the level setting alternating between -60 and +60 sounded totally even and consistent once the levels of the different sections were raised and lowered to match.

*EDIT2: Note that the trim pot setting is grayed out in all REC modes except Float(32bit).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 04, 2019, 10:18:24 PM
I found an explanation for the setting I discovered above, buried on the block diagram on pg. 191 in the manual.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 04, 2019, 11:33:24 PM
My recording session was at noon today, but thanks for the attempt to get through to me before I recorded.

I recorded dual 32 bit float/24 bit fixed files at 96kHz, with a L/R "mix" track at 24 bits.  This allowed me to set trim levels in the menu.  I panned ISO tracks 1 and 2 left and right 100% respectively.  At about 31 minutes the F6 split the recording, since it splits at 2GB (the mixpre II splits at 4 GB) I figured I was getting a 4 track 24/96 poly file, and that was the case.  The poly file split with 1-2 being the R/L mix and 3-4 being ISO 1-2.  Since I left the fader knobs at 0, the L/R came in exactly 3 dB higher than the ISO 1-2 (the F8 also has to be faded -3 dB to get the levels of the L/R and ISO the same in this stereo setup).  I set the trim at +16 dB, which is about the highest of what I use for piano on the F8 with the Josephson C617s up close.  The 32 bit float files were exactly the same levels as the ISO 24 bit files, so setting the trim in the menu had the same impact on 24 bit and 32 bit float versions.  Piano again next week (Liszt Etudes so maybe I'll get clipping) so I'll try the swap on trim-fader and only record 32 bit float.

I still don't get why the trim option is disabled in the menu for 32 bit float alone.

Jeff

ps recording came out very nice.  I'm not prepared to say better than the mixpre II, but definitely not worse.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 05, 2019, 08:36:16 AM
Piano again next week (Liszt Etudes so maybe I'll get clipping) so I'll try the swap on trim-fader and only record 32 bit float.

I still don't get why the trim option is disabled in the menu for 32 bit float alone.


A couple things:

1. The trim pot option I described in the above posts is only available if your Rec Mode is set to 32-bit float.  It is disabled in 16, 24, and dual modes.

2. You don't need to adjust panning off center if you stereo-link the channels and set your track format as "mono/stereo" as opposed to poly.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dogmusic on October 05, 2019, 08:41:16 AM
I don’t know if this has already been mentioned, but are the preamps in the Zoom f6 exactly the same as the f8n?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 05, 2019, 01:06:13 PM
Two more questions for Voltronic:

1) How do you fade ISO tracks for the L/R mix with Rec Level engaged?

2) I note that when turning the knobs with Rec Level engaged it still says "Fader" not "Trim" on the menu when you go from -60 up to +60 dB.  ???

I suspect the answers are connected.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 05, 2019, 02:33:56 PM
Two more questions for Voltronic:

1) How do you fade ISO tracks for the L/R mix with Rec Level engaged?

Good question.  I never thought of that, because the first thing I did was deactivate the L/R mix as it serves no purpose for me aside from taking up space.  I'm actually curious to know what you use the L/R mix for in your application.  That always seems more of a TV/film sound function, so you can dump out rough mixes to the client right away.

2) I note that when turning the knobs with Rec Level engaged it still says "Fader" not "Trim" on the menu when you go from -60 up to +60 dB.  ???

I suspect the answers are connected.

It could be a mis-labeling in the software.  Or, it could be functioning as a trim for the ISO and simultaneously as a fader for the L/R downmix.

Maybe this is an either/or scenario, as you are implying.  In 32-bit float mode, you can either control the ISO trim or track fades for the L/R downmix, but not both.  We need more testing.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 05, 2019, 04:51:48 PM
I got in the habit recording the L/R mix on the F8 and F8n, putting the ISO tracks on one of the SD cards and the L/R mix on the other.  When dealing with string plus piano groups (usually piano trios or quartets) I use a main stereo pair (usually ORTF) and spot the piano with the Josephsons or sometimes other omnis.  If I have time to set the balances correctly before the recital, the L/R pair is good to go, saves a lot of work in post; if not, I go back to the ISO tracks.  On the F8 I can do my best to optimize levels for the ISO tracks with trim and then use the faders to get the piano sound and balance correct in the mix.  I suppose with 32 bit float I can just try to get the mix right and let magic floating point take care of the ISO levels, but it will take getting used to.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 05, 2019, 05:03:57 PM
I got in the habit recording the L/R mix on the F8 and F8n, putting the ISO tracks on one of the SD cards and the L/R mix on the other.  When dealing with string plus piano groups (usually piano trios or quartets) I use a main stereo pair (usually ORTF) and spot the piano with the Josephsons or sometimes other omnis.  If I have time to set the balances correctly before the recital, the L/R pair is good to go, saves a lot of work in post; if not, I go back to the ISO tracks.  On the F8 I can do my best to optimize levels for the ISO tracks with trim and then use the faders to get the piano sound and balance correct in the mix.

Thanks for sharing that.  Sounds like a workflow that makes a lot of sense.  Do you monitor off the F8/n in a separate room with monitor speakers, or are you able to balance your mix with headphones?

Quote
I suppose with 32 bit float I can just try to get the mix right and let magic floating point take care of the ISO levels, but it will take getting used to.

My guess is that is what Zoom intends for users to do.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 05, 2019, 05:13:36 PM


Do you monitor off the F8/n in a separate room with monitor speakers, or are you able to balance your mix with headphones?



I do everything on headphones.  I use Remote Audio HN 7506 for isolation both onsite and at home. I listen on an Enigmacoustics Dharma 1000 for fun.  I occasionally ask a friend with a high end speaker setup to pass judgment when I get lost in comparisons or try something new (like the ZYLIA Ambisonic 19 channel mic).

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 07, 2019, 06:53:22 PM
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on October 07, 2019, 07:00:51 PM
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.

That's an option on the F8n, so....maybe?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 07, 2019, 07:06:08 PM
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.

That's an option on the F8n, so....maybe?

I'm hoping so.  It would be a pain to go through the menus and disable that if I wanted to change mics while powered up.

I do know that "power save mode" deactivates phantom while in playback, but it doesn't say more than that.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 07, 2019, 07:46:27 PM
OK, I realized that I had a major DUH moment here regarding the Reference / REC level for the channel knobs in 32-bit float mode:

As the block diagrams in the manual clearly show, all level adjustments in 32-bit float mode are post-ADC.  So WiFiJeff was correct: Zoom is putting a lot of faith into 32-bit float mode, because you really can't adjust it where it's going to prevent damage to your recording.  All that you can adjust is post-ADC level that is being written to the 32-bit float container, and it has already been shown that you can amplify or attenuate that until the cows come home with nothing lost.

That means that if you are going to adjust levels in post, it doesn't matter which knob setting you choose.  The setting would only matter if:
1. You don't want to adjust levels of your ISO tracks in post, in which case you choose Rec Level.
2. You want to make a L/R down mix on the recorder, as WiFiJeff does, in which case you choose Reference and use the knobs as faders for the L/R track.

What one still must remember is that the inputs can be clipped by a very hot mic signal.  I did my best, clapping and yelling, but my mics aren't particularly sensitive.  I would love to see a test where that tipping point on the inputs is reached.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: fguidry on October 08, 2019, 12:41:33 PM
Is P48 available when inputs are set to LINE? If so, the headroom in that mode is pretty substantial. And if so, what is the self-noise like in that mode?

Fran
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 08, 2019, 01:34:30 PM
Question for other F6 owners:

If you click a channel trim to the off position, does it remove phantom power from that channel as well?  I would like to be able to hot-swap condenser mics without having to fully power down.

That's an option on the F8n, so....maybe?

I'm hoping so.  It would be a pain to go through the menus and disable that if I wanted to change mics while powered up.

I do know that "power save mode" deactivates phantom while in playback, but it doesn't say more than that.

I hate to speculate because it makes it easy to circulate bad info, but I do not think turning trim off would disable the P48 setting. My rationale is that if you are in 32Bit float mode,and have p48 turned on, the trim is disabled and you still have p48. So what would happen if you are set at 32bit float and 24 or 16 bit? P48 would still be on, and disabling it would still require p48 be on for 32bit float, so if only 24 and/or 16 bit was selected, would turning off trim disable p48? It seems unlikely but again I am only attempting a logical conclusion and that may or may not be correct.

On a different note according to the manual, P48 is available when line in is selected.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 08, 2019, 04:56:40 PM
Is P48 available when inputs are set to LINE? If so, the headroom in that mode is pretty substantial. And if so, what is the self-noise like in that mode?

Fran

1. Yes
2. Don't know, but I doubt it should be a whole lot worse.  Someone who owns very sensitive / hot-output mics should test it.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 11, 2019, 04:20:07 PM
I ran the F6 at a piano recital again today, this time 32 bit float only, no 24 bit fixed backup, two stereo tracks.  I had the Track Knob set to Rec Level, so the input "trim" was controlled, I guess, by the knobs.  I cut the L/R mix levels by -3 dB in the Rec > LR Track > LR Fader menu, so that the L/R tracks came out matching the ISO stereo take. 

1) I set the "trim" at +13 dB, a little below where I set the menu trim last week with dual recording (Liszt Transcendental Etudes are pretty loud).  In spite of the screen showing no red that I noticed, the recording, viewed in Audacity, Wavelab 6, and Rx7, looked clipped, and had to be reduced 7-8 dB to get a clean track.  That worked fine, but Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful.  Rx7 got the peak levels correct, and Wavelab let me cut by -8 dB, but when I tried to save the corrected file it saved something with a good L track but a clipped R.  Copying the file to a new track instead of trying to save it directly fixed that, I would guess newer version of Wavelab might handle 32 bit better.

2) Sounds good.  Next week I have a piano and wind sextet, will do 4-5 tracks and see if 32 bit helps with instrumentalists who can move and maybe get too close to the mics.

Jeff
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on October 11, 2019, 06:31:33 PM
^ My interpretation of the block diagram is that, in 32-bit float mode, any gain is post ADC, so totally immaterial. Voltronic appears to view it the same way (see several posts above). Maybe worth testing that before investing too much time futzing around with it...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 11, 2019, 10:45:33 PM
If this is the case, why not just build a 32 bit machine WITHOUT any premaps and sell them for a lot less money?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gordon on October 11, 2019, 11:09:48 PM
Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful. 

this has nothing to do with 32bit float.  from time to time with the whole file selected and checking gain wavelab comes up with that number.  doesn't happen all the time but I've seen it a lot.  if you select all but a millisecond you'll get the true gain read.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 12, 2019, 12:57:06 AM
Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful. 

this has nothing to do with 32bit float.  from time to time with the whole file selected and checking gain wavelab comes up with that number.  doesn't happen all the time but I've seen it a lot.  if you select all but a millisecond you'll get the true gain read.

Thanks.  How have I managed to miss this exciting feature of Wavelab in my earlier years?  Just what the doctor ordered for maintaining or destroying heart fitness.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 12, 2019, 07:49:11 AM
I ran the F6 at a piano recital again today, this time 32 bit float only, no 24 bit fixed backup, two stereo tracks.  I had the Track Knob set to Rec Level, so the input "trim" was controlled, I guess, by the knobs.  I cut the L/R mix levels by -3 dB in the Rec > LR Track > LR Fader menu, so that the L/R tracks came out matching the ISO stereo take. 

1) I set the "trim" at +13 dB, a little below where I set the menu trim last week with dual recording (Liszt Transcendental Etudes are pretty loud).  In spite of the screen showing no red that I noticed, the recording, viewed in Audacity, Wavelab 6, and Rx7, looked clipped, and had to be reduced 7-8 dB to get a clean track.  That worked fine, but Wavelab had problems with it.  First it showed that I was about 640 dB over, clearly wrong since the clipping was nowhere near that awful.  Rx7 got the peak levels correct, and Wavelab let me cut by -8 dB, but when I tried to save the corrected file it saved something with a good L track but a clipped R.  Copying the file to a new track instead of trying to save it directly fixed that, I would guess newer version of Wavelab might handle 32 bit better.

2) Sounds good.  Next week I have a piano and wind sextet, will do 4-5 tracks and see if 32 bit helps with instrumentalists who can move and maybe get too close to the mics.

Jeff

Thanks for the report.  So it sounds like that if you set the track knob to REC LEVEL, it becomes a post-ADC fader for the ISO tracks and the L/R mix.  In Reference, you only have a fader for L/R.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 12, 2019, 07:51:16 AM
^ My interpretation of the block diagram is that, in 32-bit float mode, any gain is post ADC, so totally immaterial. Voltronic appears to view it the same way (see several posts above). Maybe worth testing that before investing too much time futzing around with it...

I don't see any other way that diagram could be interpreted.  A Zoom rep also said quite clearly that preamp gain is not adjustable in 32-bit float mode.  This was in one of the NAB videos posted early in this thread.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: WiFiJeff on October 12, 2019, 09:17:33 AM

Thanks for the report.  So it sounds like that if you set the track knob to REC LEVEL, it becomes a post-ADC fader for the ISO tracks and the L/R mix.  In Reference, you only have a fader for L/R.


To be a bit clearer: when the track knobs are set for REC LEVEL you "trim" or "fade" (it says "fader" on the screen) the ISO tracks with the knobs, so of course also the L/R tracks, which are then 3 dB higher than the ISOs with 1 panned left and 2 panned right as I had them.  In the menu, you go to REC > LR Track > LR FADER which takes you to a screen where you can fade the LR tracks AND/OR the Line Out tracks (stereo pairs, one fade for each pair).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 12, 2019, 12:43:24 PM
If this is the case, why not just build a 32 bit machine WITHOUT any premaps and sell them for a lot less money?

I'm pretty sure that the preamps are active in 32-bit float mode, just at a fixed gain level that you cannot adjust.

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.

Think of how concerned you were about your upcoming recordings, and how you didn't want to take the risk of 32-bit float exclusively the first time out.  Your reluctance to jump in with both feet was fully justified, because it was something with which you did not have direct experience, and you didn't want to risk ruining your session on an unknown factor.  Multiply that feeling by many thousands more customers.  This type of recording is still new and foreign to most people, and if it ever gets adopted as the new de facto standard, that won't happen overnight.  Until then, I expect to see more devices that allow recording in both modes.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 12, 2019, 12:45:00 PM

Thanks for the report.  So it sounds like that if you set the track knob to REC LEVEL, it becomes a post-ADC fader for the ISO tracks and the L/R mix.  In Reference, you only have a fader for L/R.


To be a bit clearer: when the track knobs are set for REC LEVEL you "trim" or "fade" (it says "fader" on the screen) the ISO tracks with the knobs, so of course also the L/R tracks, which are then 3 dB higher than the ISOs with 1 panned left and 2 panned right as I had them.  In the menu, you go to REC > LR Track > LR FADER which takes you to a screen where you can fade the LR tracks AND/OR the Line Out tracks (stereo pairs, one fade for each pair).

Got it.  I think I am going to start making myself a cheat sheet for things that aren't easily explained by the manual.

One thing that impresses me about this little recorder: It really does give you a "pro" level of options and flexibility.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 12, 2019, 03:45:22 PM

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.



You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Paul Isaacs on October 14, 2019, 04:14:06 PM

FYI, 32-bit float files are pretty widely supported... all the following apps work correctly with 32-bit float files. This is not an extensive list, just the audio apps I've tried up to now....

Adobe Audition
Adobe Premiere Pro
Apple FCPX
Audacity
Izotope RX7   
Protools 12   
Reaper
Steinberg Cubase
Steinberg Nuendo

Even the Mac Finder will play 'em!

The only audio app that I'm currently aware of that doesn't handle them properly is Logic.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Brian G on October 14, 2019, 05:22:27 PM

FYI, 32-bit float files are pretty widely supported... all the following apps work correctly with 32-bit float files. This is not an extensive list, just the audio apps I've tried up to now....

Adobe Audition
Adobe Premiere Pro
Apple FCPX
Audacity
Izotope RX7   
Protools 12   
Reaper
Steinberg Cubase
Steinberg Nuendo

Even the Mac Finder will play 'em!

The only audio app that I'm currently aware of that doesn't handle them properly is Logic.

I can add Soundforge Pro 11 to that list.....
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on October 14, 2019, 05:25:09 PM

FYI, 32-bit float files are pretty widely supported... all the following apps work correctly with 32-bit float files. This is not an extensive list, just the audio apps I've tried up to now....

Adobe Audition
Adobe Premiere Pro
Apple FCPX
Audacity
Izotope RX7   
Protools 12   
Reaper
Steinberg Cubase
Steinberg Nuendo

Even the Mac Finder will play 'em!

The only audio app that I'm currently aware of that doesn't handle them properly is Logic.

I can add Soundforge Pro 11 to that list.....

...and Digital Performer
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gordon on October 14, 2019, 05:57:44 PM
wavelab 6.1 seems to work just fine as well.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 14, 2019, 07:41:30 PM
Foobar2000 works perfectly with these files also...

...but may I suggest that if we are going to list all of the apps that can handle 32-bit float files, we do it in a separate thread before we get 100 posts in here about it?

That said, I appreciate Paul chiming in to share this.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 14, 2019, 08:01:26 PM

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.



You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.

I get where you are coming from, but your sentence I emphasized is exactly the reason why I think these first portable 32-bit float point recorders also have 24-bit modes.  A secondary reason may be that there are still some DAWs or other audio apps that do not support 32-bit float files, such as Logic while Paul pointed out.

Once all of the major software players support the format natively and people are used to the slightly different recording and post workflows, we might see a change.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on October 14, 2019, 11:21:31 PM

...but may I suggest that if we are going to list all of the apps that can handle 32-bit float files, we do it in a separate thread before we get 100 posts in here about it?

would prob be easier to list any you can find that dont support it. should be just about every editor released in the last decade. its been around for awhile, soundforge has supported it since at least 2004
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 15, 2019, 12:18:18 AM

More to your point though: I think that selling a machine that only does 32-bit float is too much of a sales risk at this point, because people are used to 24-bit, it's the delivery format of choice, and people want options.  Sound Devices certainly thought giving users the option between modes was the smart choice.  Zoom made the better choice, IMO, to have parallel 24-bit fixed and 32-bit float recording.



You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.

I get where you are coming from, but your sentence I emphasized is exactly the reason why I think these first portable 32-bit float point recorders also have 24-bit modes.  A secondary reason may be that there are still some DAWs or other audio apps that do not support 32-bit float files, such as Logic while Paul pointed out.

Once all of the major software players support the format natively and people are used to the slightly different recording and post workflows, we might see a change.

I see but do not agree. My feeling is unless the second file could allow different gain settings, you have to set gain the way we have always set gain (not that we all do it the same way but none of us want to distort) which is to not clip and therefore one cannot take advantage of the 32bit float abilities, so what is the point? As for programs not supporting the technology, that is probably short term, but if I did not have that available, I'd stay away from the technology until I did.  That said there are lots of current programs available and some are free. I do see your point though, but I am looking at the tecnhology for what it might allow me to do, and recording using 24bit settings takes that ability away.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on October 15, 2019, 10:13:00 AM
My feeling is unless the second file could allow different gain settings, you have to set gain the way we have always set gain (not that we all do it the same way but none of us want to distort) which is to not clip and therefore one cannot take advantage of the 32bit float abilities, so what is the point?

This has been one of my points all along, and it's felt like it's fallen on deaf ears.  The point is not to go hotter but to have wider latitude for manipulation in post.  One should still never clip, or even minimize headroom; that's not the point of this technology! 

If anything, the point is to be able to go lower, because you can turn it up to whatever without the traditional penalty.   I see where that complicates the plans of anyone trying to print a final on the live pass, and it may have to be accepted that this inserts a pass of post-processing by nature. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 15, 2019, 11:19:05 AM
This may be hard to explain clearly, but to be really simple, but wherever I set gain on a 32bit float recording does not seem to affect the recording at all. It records a file that I can add or subtract gain to but the properties or qualities of the original recording do not seem to change at all. It just gets louder or softer. It does not seem to get compressed when I record at higher gain nor does it get noisy when I record low. It feels like I am just enlarging or reducing a set of fixed points.

Again hard to describe and also hard to come to firm conclusions after a dozen or so outings versus 50 years of recording, but the bottom line is the recordings sound very good and sonically the same whether recorded at a high gain or a low gain.

I think that is why on the Zoom F6 you cannot select gain while recording 32 bit float. Because in reality it is recorded at a fixed level that allows manipulation in post that does not change the overall sonic relationship between the loudest and softest parts of any segemnt of the recording.

I am not saying that what I explain here is exactly correct, but that is what it feels like working these files for both the Zoom and SD machines with 32bit float.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on October 15, 2019, 12:41:05 PM
You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.

I get where you are coming from, but your sentence I emphasized is exactly the reason why I think these first portable 32-bit float point recorders also have 24-bit modes.  A secondary reason may be that there are still some DAWs or other audio apps that do not support 32-bit float files, such as Logic while Paul pointed out.

A third (but maybe not tertiary) reason is that 24-bit potentially produces a better recording in some cases (see this post (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2304803#msg2304803) from DSatz).

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 15, 2019, 06:13:45 PM
You may be right, but I look at this a different way. At first I choose the dual 32 and 24bit option, but then thinking about it, I thought, now I'd have to keep the gain back to the more conservative levels because I do not want my 24 bit to clip. So then what is the point? Yes, maybe 32 then is just a backup if I misjudge the 24bit recording gain level, but why even bother with the 24bit option, as it is not allowing me to take advantage of the entire point or at least a very main point of using 32bit float, so I switched it to 32 bit float only. We are just not ready to automatically think in terms of the differences the technology brings us. it is so much counter to what we've been doing and following for all of our recording lives. I think SD was smart to not waste their time with the dual option, it serves no purpose really except to make someone feel safe while trying out something new, but as it would be quite hard to accidentally mess up and clip, it just is not necessary.

I get where you are coming from, but your sentence I emphasized is exactly the reason why I think these first portable 32-bit float point recorders also have 24-bit modes.  A secondary reason may be that there are still some DAWs or other audio apps that do not support 32-bit float files, such as Logic while Paul pointed out.

A third (but maybe not tertiary) reason is that 24-bit potentially produces a better recording in some cases (see this post (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2304803#msg2304803) from DSatz).

So far, to my ears there are zero drawbacks to 32-bit float recording as it is implemented in the F6.  I listened very critically to the two concerts I recorded this past weekend (marching band show; 20-voice chamber choir) and there are no artifacts, modulated noise floor with wide dynamic swings, or anything else that calls attention to itself in a negative way.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on October 16, 2019, 10:46:14 AM
^ As DSatz implies in his post, it is probably a pretty rare event ("As long as that noise floor is so low that you can't hear it (always, 100%, money-back guaranteed under all circumstances)" and "If the noise floor is ever audible--if any possible type of signal, or combination of settings and signals, can coax it out of hiding") so a sample of two isn't exactly dispositive (I guess it wouldn't be even if it was fairly common). Hopefully, Zoom's implementation is such that it will rarely, if ever, be an issue.

I am intrigued by this technology, but I will let others be the early adopters. My current recorder has a broad enough dynamic range that I can already set it so it will never clip before my microphones and still capture the whole dynamic range of a show. It requires a little math, but I don't mind that. If the F6 or the MixPre IIs prove to offer a major benefit (beyond saving me the math), I may give one a go at some point... 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 16, 2019, 11:20:38 AM
I am intrigued by this technology, but I will let others be the early adopters. My current recorder has a broad enough dynamic range that I can already set it so it will never clip before my microphones and still capture the whole dynamic range of a show. It requires a little math, but I don't mind that. If the F6 or the MixPre IIs prove to offer a major benefit (beyond saving me the math), I may give one a go at some point...

I'm in this boat.  I ran at an Americana festival all last weekend which included acts ranging from quiet solo singer/songwriters to more rowdy amplified acts with drum kits and subwoofers (definite ear-plug level material, but not crazy loud). Using an F8 @ 24/48 to record 8ch's, I was tempted to just record all acts at the same input trim level (minimum +10dB mic-input sensitivity) but bumped up all channels by +10dB to +15dB for the really quiet stuff just so I could more easily confirm on-going activity of all 8 channel meters at a glance.

I plan to listen critically to the segments where I made those trim adjustments to reconfirm that either approach remains well within the dynamic-envelope-range of the recorder without any difference other than
the amount of gain which needs to be applied afterward.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 16, 2019, 11:32:38 AM
In recording a wide range of live music, the only real variable for me is the first few notes. Sometimes it is way (way way) louder than I anticipate. Sometimes it is way (probably not way way) softer than anticipated, so quick adjustments are made and occasionally (but rarely) there is a note or two of distortion. Additionally because the adjustment needs to be swift, leveling out the sound takes a little work to get it right . The idea that the Zoom F6 (and SD MixPre6II) will eliminate that problem is my motivation. Even if it is infrequent, it is a very nice development in recording.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 16, 2019, 11:54:26 AM
Spot on. "Less stuff to correct for later" is real a practical advantage.  Afterwards it's far faster to just adjust level of the entire recording than to have to carefully draw in an envelop gain adjustment leveling out a trim adjustment in addition to making an overall level adjustment.  I almost didn't make the +10 or 15dB  trim adjustments I mentioned above due to this consideration, as I essentially did it only as a way of effecting a meter sensitivity adjustment!  It was more important to me to confirm ongoing correct operation than to avoid having to make a level compensation later.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 27, 2019, 12:31:19 PM
Sample of my last recording made with the F6:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192112.msg2314652#msg2314652 (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192112.msg2314652#msg2314652)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 01, 2019, 07:45:09 PM
Here's a new video review of the F6 from the perspective of someone who does video and dialog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12_T4Ek4Y_c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12_T4Ek4Y_c)

Especially interesting bits are:
- 5:50, where he describes a "better" way to use the F6 as an interface while preserving 32-bit float recording to the SD card.
- 8:34, where a "quirk" of the TC output is described.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 04, 2019, 07:15:26 PM
Thought I'd share the batteries I am using.  So far, I haven't had occasion to run more than 2 channels, but the life on these are certainly great.  After several concerts, they still show about 90% full.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1373127-REG/dracast_drbk2npf2ch6600_2_x_np_f_6600mah.html (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1373127-REG/dracast_drbk2npf2ch6600_2_x_np_f_6600mah.html)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 18, 2019, 06:12:45 AM
have you run it on NiMH AAs?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 18, 2019, 05:54:20 PM
have you run it on NiMH AAs?

Yes, but only just browsing the menus.  The NiMh AAs are only my backup power.  I have the external battery attached at all times when actually running the thing.

Speaking of, I still haven't had to charge it.  Maybe after running for another couple hours this weekend.  At some point, I'll have to do a real battery drain test with 6 mics powered.  I'll need a bigger memory card first...

In a couple weeks, I will have a stage / pit setup with CM3s and AT853s, so that will at least be slightly more taxing.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 20, 2019, 06:44:41 PM
I just ordered the much smaller 2200 mAh version of that Dracast battery (https://www.amazon.com/Dracast-DRBA2200NPF-2200-Battery-Black/dp/B078NHPBTP), because I think it will be plenty for the 2-channel, under 2-hour gigs I do most often.  I'll do a runtime test with 6 mics, and if it does decently at all, one of the two 6600 mAh batteries and accompanying charger will show up soon on the YS.

Speaking of, I'm doing a runtime test on that big sucker of a battery now with my CM3s, X-Qs, and AT853s.  None are current hogs at all, but it's what I have.  Topping off the other battery to full and will repeat.

In order to do the test (and to have the space for long 4+ channel gigs), I just picked up this 128GB card, on Zoom's approved media list.  Shockingly cheap for the capacity in a name brand:
https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/ (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 20, 2019, 08:01:06 PM
In order to do the test (and to have the space for long 4+ channel gigs), I just picked up this 128GB card, on Zoom's approved media list.  Shockingly cheap for the capacity in a name brand:
https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/ (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/)

check out this thread, not your device, but there are some good benchmark apps in the first post that you can use to qualify the card.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191314.msg2316282#new


Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 21, 2019, 05:46:37 AM
In order to do the test (and to have the space for long 4+ channel gigs), I just picked up this 128GB card, on Zoom's approved media list.  Shockingly cheap for the capacity in a name brand:
https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/ (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/)

check out this thread, not your device, but there are some good benchmark apps in the first post that you can use to qualify the card.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191314.msg2316282#new

Did you see where I mentioned this card is on Zoom's approved media list?  Otherwise, yes, those are helpful utilities I have used before.  There's also the on-board test routine on the F6.

EDIT: I just realized you probably want to see the performance data on it.  I'll run it through CPDT at some point after I have finished my battery runtime tests.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 21, 2019, 09:02:34 PM
Runtime test complete on the 6600 mAh Dracast battery (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1373127-REG/dracast_drbk2npf2ch6600_2_x_np_f_6600mah.html), Zoom F6 set to 6 channels recording 32-bit FP / 48kHz.  Mics were Line Audio CM3, AT853, Naiant X-Q.

Kingston Canvas Select 128GB SDHC Class 10 SD Memory Card model SDS/128GB (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY/), freshly formatted.

Runtime with this battery was 14 hours, 25 minutes, 4 seconds.  I don't have high-draw mics, but that is still impressive.

No, I have no interest in testing again at 96 kHz, as I will never use that.


Next up is a runtime test with the same settings on the 2200 mAh battery (https://www.amazon.com/Dracast-DRBA2200NPF-2200-Battery-Black/dp/B078NHPBTP).

Image attached for jerryfreak with test results on the card.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 21, 2019, 09:24:40 PM
Did you see where I mentioned this card is on Zoom's approved media list? 

yes i did, im just leery of mfr claims, esp after recent sound devices experiences. thanks for the test! justme found a loose correlation between low random write speed and errors with the mixpre, that card looks like it would work well on the mixpre

how does the zoom internal test work? how long/extensive is it? all devices should have that feature imo....

what a value the F6 seems to be... im not crazy about the tall form factor but i could grow to like it for that price and featureset

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 22, 2019, 05:55:19 AM
Did you see where I mentioned this card is on Zoom's approved media list? 

yes i did, im just leery of mfr claims, esp after recent sound devices experiences. thanks for the test! justme found a loose correlation between low random write speed and errors with the mixpre, that card looks like it would work well on the mixpre

At least Zoom has a tested media list.  That's one of the things that swayed me to their unit and away from the new MixPre series.


how does the zoom internal test work? how long/extensive is it? all devices should have that feature imo....

I don't know what it does, but it takes a long time.  My assumption is that it is doing write / read tests all over different areas of the card, but I really have no idea.


what a value the F6 seems to be... im not crazy about the tall form factor but i could grow to like it for that price and featureset

I think the F6 is one of the best values in recording equipment today, especially after having several recordings with it.  The quality is outstanding, and it is easy to use.  You certainly get more channels for your money than you do with Sound Devices.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 22, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
battery life as well....
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Paul Isaacs on November 22, 2019, 05:45:07 PM

At least Zoom has a tested media list.  That's one of the things that swayed me to their unit and away from the new MixPre series.


Don't know if you've seen it, but the approved media list for MixPre has been updated over the last few weeks ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/

And BTW, keep an eye out for some nice MixPre news coming pretty soon ...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on November 22, 2019, 05:59:18 PM
The SD card test feature of the Zoom F8 completes pretty quickly for me when I run it on the 64 and 128GB cards I use so I typically run it each time I switch cards simply as a precaution.  Don't know if the F6 routine is the same or not.  Could be designed to be more exhaustive to check 32-bit bandwidth, even though total channel count is 2 channels less.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 22, 2019, 06:04:47 PM

At least Zoom has a tested media list.  That's one of the things that swayed me to their unit and away from the new MixPre series.


Don't know if you've seen it, but the approved media list for MixPre has been updated over the last few weeks ...

https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/

And BTW, keep an eye out for some nice MixPre news coming pretty soon ...

I see you are keeping an eye on the competition, Paul.  As you should.   :)

I have some thoughts on the list you have linked, which I will post in the MixPre-II thread.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 23, 2019, 08:16:34 AM
Updated battery runtime tests:

Zoom F6 set to 32-bit float / 48 kHz
48 V phantom on all channels
Kingston Canvas Select 128GB (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY) card

Mics:
Line Audio CM3 (also used in 2-channel test)
AT853
Naiant X-Q

Dracast 6600 mAh (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1373127-REG/dracast_drbk2npf2ch6600_2_x_np_f_6600mah.html)
6 channels
14:25:04

Dracast 2200 mAh (https://www.amazon.com/Dracast-DRBA2200NPF-2200-Battery-Black/dp/B078NHPBTP)
6 channels
02:53:51

Dracast 2200 mAh
2 channels (CM3s only)
05:04:41


---

The 6600 mAh battery is a beast (and quite large).  As I posted it before, it had barely moved off full after many hours of 2-channel recordings.  A runtime test with 2 channels would take days.

The 2200 mAh battery was a bit disappointing for the 2-channel test.  I would have to charge it after every concert.  I will be sending it back.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 25, 2019, 09:10:35 PM
I just learned some helpful info on two points.

My email to Zoom customer support:

Quote
Hello,

I have two questions about the F6 that I cannot find referenced in the manual:

1. When a track knob is clicked OFF (disarmed), is phantom power still applied to that channel, if it is set in the PFL screen? I want the option to swap mics without fully powering down the unit. In other words, does disarming the track also remove phantom power? If not, I would like to request that feature for a firmware update.

2. When an input is set to LINE (PH), is there a pad inserted? Where in the signal path does this occur, and what, if any, items are bypassed?

Thank you for your help, and for making great products. I am enjoying using my F6.


The response:

Quote
Hello,

Phantom power is disabled when the track in question is muted.

There is a -20dB pad when the Line option is selected on the F6. The pad occurs prior to A/D conversion. No other elements are bypassed.

Let me know if you have any further questions.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 30, 2019, 06:20:31 AM
pulled the trigger!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on December 12, 2019, 08:23:50 AM

Dracast 2200 mAh
2 channels (CM3s only)
05:04:41


That's pretty amazing for such a low capacity battery. We have come a long way since the days of hauling SLA bricks for 4 hours of run time.

Thanks for doing these tests.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 12, 2019, 07:34:35 PM

Dracast 2200 mAh
2 channels (CM3s only)
05:04:41


That's pretty amazing for such a low capacity battery. We have come a long way since the days of hauling SLA bricks for 4 hours of run time.

Thanks for doing these tests.

Yeah, I suppose that is pretty decent runtime for that battery.  I just wanted to be able to go at least two shows without recharging, so I'm sticking with the 6600 mAh.

In other news, the F6 has been used quite heavily the past three weeks, and is solid as a rock.  I haven't found any glitches or issues in anything, which is quite remarkable for something so new.  Zoom has been doing their homework, clearly.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on December 31, 2019, 08:26:24 AM
im in the club! been playing with it all day and getting used to the menus. its a ittle unnerving coming from a mixpre with the touchscreen, menu operations seem to take a little longer with the hardware menu nav buttons, but im getting used to it.

apart from Voltronic's opinions which i share (smaller than expected, great build quality, nice bright screen, efficient batt life, functional customizable lock function) one thing i really like is the key settings are kind of buried in the menu, they are difficult to mess up. in most cases, the only thing you would ever do from night to night is maybe toggle mic to line input and phantom on or off if using external pre or board feed.

considering trim/gain seems entirely irrelevant in 32-float, really just show up, plug in, click input knobs on and press record, and sort it out later. if youre matching your input devices carefully (keeping below +24dBU), theres really nothing that can change the recording

the 4 powerex precharge AAs (LSD) went 203 minutes (3h23m) w/6 channels of phantom (2x dpa mmp-a, 2x dpa mma-c, 2x dpa mmp-e) writing 6ch of 32/192 (no LR or dual tracks). AA battery display indicates actual voltage, not percent. dropped to 4.7V almost immediately, then 4.6 and 4.5V slowly. flashed me low batt warning at 4.4V and ran about 20-25 minutes after this notification. so plenty of warning there. the unit saved last file fine upon battery shutdown

impressive! if i could get 2-3 hours out of a smaller L-series battery+ 3 hours out of internal AAs thats the 5hrs i need to cover 90% of my outings and i have 10000 and 20000 maH usb-c batts for long outings. i dont have an L-battery but switching between AAs and usb-c batts is seamless to the units operation

it says it outputs 2ch mix to ios, im going to order a usb-c to lightning cable and see if it can feed an iphone a mixlr stream


question#1: if i use the "volume" control in soundforge is that nondestructive normalization? seems i can push it like 60dB past 0dB and bring it back down without clipped peaks

question#2 if feeding unbalanced input should pin 2 be signal, pin 3 be ground, and pin1 be cable shield, left to float at the unbalanced end? or should pin 3 and 1 be grounded together?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 01, 2020, 11:51:40 AM

the 4 powerex precharge AAs (LSD) went 203 minutes (3h23m) w/6 channels of phantom (2x dpa mmp-a, 2x dpa mma-c, 2x dpa mmp-e) writing 6ch of 32/192 (no LR or dual tracks). AA battery display indicates actual voltage, not percent. dropped to 4.7V almost immediately, then 4.6 and 4.5V slowly. flashed me low batt warning at 4.4V and ran about 20-25 minutes after this notification. so plenty of warning there. the unit saved last file fine upon battery shutdown

impressive! if i could get 2-3 hours out of a smaller L-series battery+ 3 hours out of internal AAs thats the 5hrs i need to cover 90% of my outings and i have 10000 and 20000 maH usb-c batts for long outings. i dont have an L-battery but switching between AAs and usb-c batts is seamless to the units operation

That is very impressive runtime for AAs.  For L-series batteries, I highly recommend the Dracast ones I have posted about.

question#1: if i use the "volume" control in soundforge is that nondestructive normalization? seems i can push it like 60dB past 0dB and bring it back down without clipped peaks

I don't use SF, so someone else could give you a better answer there.  Based on what you describe, it sounds like it is handling 32-bit float files.


question#2 if feeding unbalanced input should pin 2 be signal, pin 3 be ground, and pin1 be cable shield, left to float at the unbalanced end? or should pin 3 and 1 be grounded together?

I've never made these cables myself, but everything I am reading is that pins 1 and 3 are both wired to the shield at the balanced end.  Pin 2 is signal.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 01, 2020, 12:19:52 PM
I don't use SF, so someone else could give you a better answer there.  Based on what you describe, it sounds like it is handling 32-bit float files.

well all of its temp files are 32bit float, for many many versions now. and if i import a native 32bitfloat and do work on it the peak meter displays values above FSD (as does vegas when mixing multiple sources)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Papaphunk on January 03, 2020, 09:22:48 AM
Think this is going to be my next investment. Read through a lot of this thread, as well as the positive reviews online.

32 Bit Float sounds fantastic, as I like to run things a little hot. Need a new recorder upgrade for Summer Music Fests taboot.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 03, 2020, 09:51:01 AM
Think this is going to be my next investment. Read through a lot of this thread, as well as the positive reviews online.

32 Bit Float sounds fantastic, as I like to run things a little hot. Need a new recorder upgrade for Summer Music Fests taboot.
pm me if you want the name of the place i bought it from that was under msrp. not gonna blow up their spot publicly
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dogmusic on January 03, 2020, 11:53:14 AM

In other news, the F6 has been used quite heavily the past three weeks, and is solid as a rock.  I haven't found any glitches or issues in anything, which is quite remarkable for something so new.  Zoom has been doing their homework, clearly.

Leaving 32-bit aside, how would you compare preamp quality of the F6 to that of your previous modified DR70d?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 03, 2020, 09:50:46 PM
it says it outputs 2ch mix to ios, im going to order a usb-c to lightning cable and see if it can feed an iphone a mixlr stream


hmmm, cant get the iphone to see it at all over a usb-c to lightning cable. heres the feature they claim

"USB PORT: The F6 features a USB-C connection allowing you to back up your files, live stream while recording and more. The USB port also doubles as a power port."

ive messed with all the relevant settings, dropping sample and bit rate, setting it to AIF mode, AIF with recording, loop back on, routing channels to usb, etc. 

I have a tech support email in
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 04, 2020, 01:31:57 AM
the only thing that gives me pause is the relatively low high input sensitivity (aka low max input level) on mic in, +4 dbU

most other pres are +10 to +20dbu on mic input

many mics can exceed +4dBu (1.2V RMS), including schoeps CMC1, DPA MMC-A,C,E, and G, etc

given the fixed input topology i was wondering if there is any practical downside to using the +24dBu "line in" for most applications (which they have acknowledged is basically just a 20 dB pad, phantom is still available on line-in

so i did two whisper tests
4011C, one channel line in, one channel mic in (then i made 2 channel files from each sample after increasing volume. all data was kept in 192/32f from recording thru volume adjustment thru these samples

fader at -60 dB on both:
mic in: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dPQbqiFQW3A8wB4-KU_GVXq45-ig3OkC/view?usp=sharing
line in: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IxRKsogP5DhJ6tOZ6q2GoyKVuHnWUI3r/view?usp=sharing

separate test with faders cranked +60 dB on each, whispering slightly quieter
mic in: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YjEABVH9s9Uk3lJeqRbIvztFTIs0cIt0/view?usp=sharing
line in: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hAn0ioZRJ0bzYxJmLz3uVF0LXMMLJTCY/view?usp=sharing

in both tests i recorded test tones with my 94/114dB calibrator (which ran upwards of +40dB over FSD at +60dB on line in - did not clip in either case

safe to say we run into the noise floor of the recorder with quiet sounds on mic in - so there is no free lunch. still this is VERY quiet and youd be hard pressed to be in a situation with so much dynamic range that you would be constrained by input noise vs overloading, it indeed does have a very wide dynamic range, i would say fundamentally close to or in excess of most microphones (which we rarely push to their 120+ dB max SPLs). at the end of the day, forget about a concert and its typical 50 dB dynamic range, a symphony *might* approach 70 dB with all those people in the room

a future test on upper SPL handling would be with the higher output 'MMP-A' bodies with higher sens caps like the 40 mv/PA 2006. those mic bodies have selectable 20 dB pads as well, so i can test the 20 dB pads in the mics vs the recorder

TLDR: its insanely quiet but there is indeed a consequence to mic vs line in, in regard to input noise, so select accordingly, as would be expected



Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 04, 2020, 07:38:39 AM

In other news, the F6 has been used quite heavily the past three weeks, and is solid as a rock.  I haven't found any glitches or issues in anything, which is quite remarkable for something so new.  Zoom has been doing their homework, clearly.

Leaving 32-bit aside, how would you compare preamp quality of the F6 to that of your previous modified DR70d?

The F6 is clearly in a much higher class.  The preamps are uncolored and very quiet, on par with Sound Devices equipment I have used.  My modded 70D certainly sounded very good, but I had to be careful with gain setting.  Anything past the MID gain range introduced noticeable preamp noise.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 04, 2020, 10:21:37 AM
ran a 2 channel batt test with 4 nimh AAs powering 2 channels at phantom at 32/192 - got about 7 hours, pretty impressive
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 04, 2020, 05:42:05 PM
ran a 2 channel batt test with 4 nimh AAs powering 2 channels at phantom at 32/192 - got about 7 hours, pretty impressive

WOW.  What mics?  I would expect ones with very low current draw to get that figure.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 04, 2020, 07:05:03 PM
DPA MMP-C
2.8 mA draw

hell of a unit. i wish it had digi in, so i could ditch my dr100, this isnt *that* much larger for what it does
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dogmusic on January 05, 2020, 11:02:40 AM

In other news, the F6 has been used quite heavily the past three weeks, and is solid as a rock.  I haven't found any glitches or issues in anything, which is quite remarkable for something so new.  Zoom has been doing their homework, clearly.

Leaving 32-bit aside, how would you compare preamp quality of the F6 to that of your previous modified DR70d?


The F6 is clearly in a much higher class.  The preamps are uncolored and very quiet, on par with Sound Devices equipment I have used.  My modded 70D certainly sounded very good, but I had to be careful with gain setting.  Anything past the MID gain range introduced noticeable preamp noise.

Thanks for that info. I hope they make a two channel version. The battery life is terrific.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 05, 2020, 07:39:05 PM
foolishly did a battery test with only 2 channels on a 10000 mAh Anker powercore USB-C

19 hours later.....

extrapolating from my relative runtimes of 2ch vs 6ch on AAs it seems this USB battery would do 9 hrs or so with 6 channels phantom

same usb battery would run my mixpre6 for about 5 hours, considering that the mixpre6 only provides 4 channels of phantom, its fair to say that the F6 uses about half the power, more or less, in a given application

i ordered the recommended Dracast NP-F battery, 2200 mAh, $15 w/charger, pretty reasonable cost. (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078NHM4CL)

AAs plus a NP-F should be more than enough for my needs

not a single glitch so far other than an unreadable file which fixed its headers automatically when i put the card back in the zoom and played it for a few seconds
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on January 06, 2020, 09:56:57 AM
its fair to say that the F6 uses about half the power, more or less

I think that is mostly due to the different pre-amp designs. Class A pres, like in the MixPre series, are pretty inefficient.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 06, 2020, 10:50:37 AM
which type is used in the zoom?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on January 06, 2020, 01:00:11 PM
A friend has examined the guts of both. He said the MixPre Kashmir pres are "class A discrete" and the Zoom's are "differential IC". I can't really tell you what that means, exactly, but he also said that the downside of class A designs is that they are power hungry.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on January 06, 2020, 01:03:43 PM
I'm not at all sure, but I tend to think phantom power generation and distribution to mics must burn more current than any of these preamps. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: morst on January 06, 2020, 05:28:22 PM
Traditional Class-A amplifier circuits are designed by using a single signal chain, and adding DC voltage to it, so that the input signal is converted from an A/C signal, to one which is biased into variable Direct Current (DC). Once this is done, gain can be applied, and then the final output has its DC removed. Because the circuit is operational even with no input signal, this design consumes a lot of power and runs hot.


Traditional Class-B amplifier circuits are designed in a "push-pull" fashion, where two circuits are made to handle each of the positive and negative excursions of signal. Because each half of the circuit is operational only about half the time, they require less power, and they run cooler. The trade-off is that there is the potential for "switching distortion" at the zero point where one circuit must "hand off" to the other. Because the "handoff" is rarely perfect, distortion results.


Sounds like the differential IC is an Integrated Circuit with a Class-B or similar on board.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 06, 2020, 08:46:59 PM
I did some "SD Performance tests" , of some cards i had on hand, with the handy menu feature. The "full test" test was thorough, took 1-2 hours per card

ill link the info on the cards i tested that weve aggregated data on in the mixpre media thread

lower "access rate" is better, 100=fail

128GB Integral UltimaProX (is now one of the few cards on the Sound Devices approved media list, and the only affordable one over 32GB)

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191314.msg2306038#msg2306038

(https://i.imgur.com/YAz6xfe.png)

64GB Transcend UHSII (fast card, esp on UHS-II, but failed on mixpre after 16 hours of testing)
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191314.msg2312164#msg2312164

(https://i.imgur.com/5GJyAnH.png)

I havent run the integral in any recording tests, but ive put about 7 hrs of 6ch 32/192, 5 hrs of 8ch 32/96  and 20 hrs of 2ch 24/96 on the transcend without a single issue

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: justme on January 08, 2020, 12:57:08 AM
Thank you JF for testing.
Zoom really delivers.

Internal card tests is far from a new function but it would be a great feature for SD to implement as well.
They have some slack to pick up in some areas.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 08, 2020, 09:59:23 AM
ok i got it to connect with iphone via usb

this didnt work
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WLMFMRH

but i had this OTG adapter from a while back which works with a standard usb-a to c cable
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TWTXQ51

i can get the iphone to see the zoom and it works in metarecorder but it makes mixlr freak out for some reason and send out weird chunks of intermittent sped up samples interspersed with silence. which is weird because mixlr works fine with both built in iphone mic as well as d:vice on lightning input

zoom>iphone>metarecorder works flawlessly to record a backup, but you cant use 32-bit float, and are limited to 44.1 or 48K
 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: EmRR on January 08, 2020, 12:15:59 PM
Sounds like the differential IC is an Integrated Circuit with a Class-B or similar on board.

Almost nothing runs pure class B anymore, it's usually associated with broadcast transmitters.   I think many IC's run class AB, and can be biased to run pure class A if there's adequate power supply to do so.   In AB they run A on low level signals and move into B as they grow larger.   

In layman's terms, AB and other higher classes use variable amounts of power depending on need, with class A you get a constant for both power draw and circuit power artifacts imprinted on audio. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 13, 2020, 12:51:55 PM
OK, I realized that I had a major DUH moment here regarding the Reference / REC level for the channel knobs in 32-bit float mode:

As the block diagrams in the manual clearly show, all level adjustments in 32-bit float mode are post-ADC.  So WiFiJeff was correct: Zoom is putting a lot of faith into 32-bit float mode, because you really can't adjust it where it's going to prevent damage to your recording.  All that you can adjust is post-ADC level that is being written to the 32-bit float container, and it has already been shown that you can amplify or attenuate that until the cows come home with nothing lost.

can it be argued that the zoom really doesnt have "preamps" in the traditional sense? that it relies on a relatively sensitive modern ADC where the clipping point is matched to a +4dBU max input (a "purer" signal path, as per the block diagram, "line" mode is just the same circuit with a 20 dB pad inserted)

the way i used to run my CMRs into the AD2K was similar to this.... no additional gain stage. premise being despite the fact that the signal only peaked at -30dbFS, i still had over 80 dB of dynamic range to work with which put mic noise floor right around converter noise floor (both well below crowd noise floor). the CMR does not put out a relatively hot signal, and the AD2K isnt looking for anything but hot balanced line level signals, but i would contend that if you can get a conventional AD converter to see a mic output without an additional preamp, and get your levels peaking *anywhere close to -20dB*, you would have results worthy of any of the 32-bit float recorders. 20+ dB of headroom at which point your mics would be distorting (or youd be clipping the input of your 32bit recorder), and enough down-bit resolution to cover the dynamic range of almost any live performance

something with a little higher output like a schoeps at 60V>baby nbox or DPA MMP-G directly into any modern 24-bit converter, levels be damned
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 13, 2020, 08:28:36 PM

can it be argued that the zoom really doesnt have "preamps" in the traditional sense? that it relies on a relatively sensitive modern ADC where the clipping point is matched to a +4dBU max input (a "purer" signal path, as per the block diagram, "line" mode is just the same circuit with a 20 dB pad inserted)


Maybe when set to 32-bit float mode, but not when in 24-bit mode where it appears to have a somewhat traditional preamp stage.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 14, 2020, 12:01:27 AM
its not clear (to me) from the block diagram where the ADC stage is

also its technically possible that 'trim' is attenuation, not gain

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 14, 2020, 01:38:31 PM
got a disappointing 2:15 of run time first try with 2200 mAH dracast (6ch phantom). 2:12 on second test

does not compute as i get over 3 hours from 2500 mAH NiMH at 5V (confirmed since with different batteries)

notice that Voltronic's 6600 mAh test was 5 times the capacity of the 2200 mAh test. Assuming the battery isnt defective it would have to be premature voltage cutoff by the zoom

apparently under high load the voltage sag on the 2-cell battery trips the relatively high voltage cutoff of the zoom (around 7.0V) much earlier than the 6-cell 6600 mAh (where we would expect something slightly over 3X capacity vs the 2200 mAh battery, perhaps 3.5X, but not 5X!  best guess on the NP-F discharge rate, based on a proper 3.0V cutoff, would be close to 0.3C. the 6 cell 6600 mAh would be well under 0.1C, probably closer to 0.05C with a proper 3.0V cutoff. look at the graph below how much juice is left in the battery below 3.5V/cell, close to 40%! Most other manufacturers spec 3.0V as cutoff in their devices, which is still high enough to not damage the battery. a deep discharge would be something like 2.7V which some devices do. remember that cutting off at 3.0V *under load* is still leaving a safe amount of juice in the cell as not to damage it.

submitted this to support today:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i did come across some bugs in 1.20 firmware, and some suggestions for future firmware

bug: sometimes tracks dont arm despite the knobs being clicked on... a reboot corrects it

bug:display power saving acts erratically sometimes. where normally it goes dark after 30 seconds, sometimes it will just stay on. ive also seen it randomly click on and off by itself while recording. last night when it was stuck on, it flashed off for a second then back on (and stayed on). it was right when displayed NPF battery voltage was flipping from 7.2 to 7.1V, not sure if that is related in any way

suggestion: make an option for screen timeout in menu. something like 30 sec/60 sec/5 min/never
suggestion: make order of power sources used in menu selectable if possible (even if its just selecting between NPF and AA))
suggestion: allow user adjustable cut off-voltage when using NPF battery, as of now it cuts off at about 7.0V (3.5V/cell), which leaves upwards of 40% of the battery unused with smaller batteries like 2200 mAh used in high-drain situations like 6-channel w/phantom power. (between 0.3 and 0.5C, indicated by blue oval on graph below).  Having this cutoff adjustable down to 6V (3V per cell) would offer extended runtime and is more on par with other devices. These batteries are cheap, lost takes are not!


(https://i.imgur.com/dNkvErY.png)

-----------------------------------------------------

its difficult to estimate state of charge of a resting li-ion cell by simple voltage since the curve is so flat. after cutting off, resting voltage after 10 mins or so is 7.6V (3.8V per cell... which seems like theres a lot of juice left in there...)

in fact i can take the 'dead' battery (7.0V cutoff from 6-ch phantom), and boot up the zoom in lowest power case i can imagine (1 channel no phantom), it displays 7.4V under load and runs for 40 more minutes before cutoff (woulda been probably an 1.5hr+ to 3.0V/cell cutoff.. but anyway)

i would venture to guess i could do the same with "dead" AAs. drop down from 6 to 2 channels and eek out some more runtime... good in a pinch

depending on cutoff voltage of this device, it might be able to be used to squeak the rest of the power out of the NPF battery and into the USB-C port
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Junkie-NP-F-Blind-Spot/dp/B07NF14XW4

in any case, for now, absent a firmware update, smaller NPF cells like 2200 mAh are a poor match for high-drain recording such as multichannel w/phantom. 4400, 6600 or larger would get well over 2-3X the usable capacity

im in the process of doing a runtime test with just 2 ch phantom, which is a better fit for this battery

Time 0 = 7.9V
20 mins -> drop to 7.8V
1.5 hrs -> 7.7V
2.25 hrs -> 7.6V
2.9 hrs -> 7.5V
3.9 hrs -> 7.4V
4.1 hrs -> 7.3V
4.3 hrs -> 7.2V
4.5 hrs -> 7.1V
4.7ish hrs ->switched over to internal AAs

idle battery voltage after this test was right around the 7.0V cutoff, so there was much less voltage sag at this <0.2C test

___________________________________________
TLDR: i orderd a 4400 mAh battery. About the same price and should give about 3X the runtime of the 2200 mAh due to high cutoff voltage
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 15, 2020, 03:57:42 PM
re:


can it be argued that the zoom really doesnt have "preamps" in the traditional sense? that it relies on a relatively sensitive modern ADC where the clipping point is matched to a +4dBU max input (a "purer" signal path, as per the block diagram, "line" mode is just the same circuit with a 20 dB pad inserted)


Maybe when set to 32-bit float mode, but not when in 24-bit mode where it appears to have a somewhat traditional preamp stage.

I asked support:

Quote from: jerryfreak
I'm trying to understand the gain topology of the F6

it seems trim is active in linear mode but not float.

if i understand correctly, in float mode, basically the device acts as 'wide open' and has the ADC stage matched to the maximum +4dBU input (which is really the same in mic-in or if the 20 dB line-in pad is on)

in linear mode, is the 'trim' early in the block diagram an active analog gain stage or just an attenuator? does it operate in the analog or digital range?

is there a 'unity gain' ideal input level for the device which is free of gain stages and/or offers the highest dynamic range?

response:

Quote from: zoom support
The Trim on the F6 acts as a digital stage. The dual ADC is used when recording in 32 bit float and when recording in 24 bit.

The Trim allows you to set the level that will be recorded to the 24 bit file. This makes it so that if the signal clips in 24 bit mode, it is due to the file clipping from the limitations of the 24 bit integer format, not from clipping at the converter.

Since linear formats cannot accommodate the wide dynamic range of the dual ADC on the F6, a software Trim is necessary to set the level of the recorded file.

so it would appear there is no analog gain or attenuation whatsoever, and that 'unity gain' would be the level at which the zoom operates in 'reference mode' where trim is disabled (probably same as trim at zero in all other modes but not confirmed). I requested clarification

the claim that the dynamic range of the input exceeds the 144 dB range of a 24-bit word seems like a bit of a stretch though.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on January 15, 2020, 04:23:44 PM
the claim that the dynamic range of the input exceeds the 144 dB range of a 24-bit word seems like a bit of a stretch though.

Yes, and if a somewhat larger "dynamic range container" is necessary, I've wondered why not simply go to 32 bit linear and not have to rework everything else around floating point along with people's thinking about how it all works and what is going on?  Would effectively solve the problem just as well in a way that is much easier to understand.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 15, 2020, 04:32:34 PM
exactly, see this post above

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2320079#msg2320079

people claim that 32bit float is easier and more precise to manipulate, but as far as volume adjustment which is the #1 feature we crave, couldnt you just losslessly 'shift bits' 6dB at a time with any linear format?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 16, 2020, 02:09:03 AM
interesting. if your input is too hot, it flashes this message for 10 seconds to let you know

(https://i.imgur.com/wjKlCv7.png)

i guess thats in the manual but i missed it. happened when i accidetnally hot-unplugged a mic but can make it overload by screaming right into a 4011

NOTE
• When Float (32bit) is selected, if a signal is input that exceeds the maximum input level for the input source (+4 dBu when Mic or +24 dBu when
Line), an “Exceeding maximum input level” message will appear. If this
message appears, adjust the output levels of the devices connected to
the input jacks.




Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 16, 2020, 05:53:42 PM
I'm a bit disappointed to hear you were able to overload the input using a 4011.  That's not a highly sensitive mic.

Mind trying the same thing with the input set to Line+Phantom?  That should keep you out of the red.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 16, 2020, 06:03:09 PM
I'm a bit disappointed to hear you were able to overload the input using a 4011.

i literally had to SCREAM into it. multiple times because first wasnt loud enough. 4011C spec says it can top 4V (+14 dBU)

at the 10 mV/Pa that scream shoulda been in the upper 130s

doubt it would overload in normal use. maybe with a 40mV/Pa cap like a 4006 or 2006 on an MMP-A body without the pad
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: DSatz on January 16, 2020, 07:47:41 PM
When someone literally screams into a mike within fractions-of-an-inch distances, 130 dB SPL, 140 dB SPL and even higher can be generated for short periods of time. This is why some head-worn microphones, such as DPA's, are designed with such high maximum SPL limits. With even a foot of distance between the mouth and the mike, most people can't produce 130 dB SPL at the mike with the voice alone.

But there's an art to screaming, and I've recorded a couple of trained operatic sopranos whose limits I'm not sure that I know, but who have produced 130+ dB SPLs in a microphone two feet or so away. That got me to be more serious about testing preamps for their input overload limits.

I also found that some microphone manufacturers are more conservative than others in their published maximum SPL ratings, i.e. a microphone may be able to put out considerably more signal than you would project from the sensitivity and maximum SPL specifications alone.

--best regards
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 16, 2020, 09:28:00 PM
When someone literally screams into a mike within fractions-of-an-inch distances, 130 dB SPL, 140 dB SPL and even higher can be generated for short periods of time. This is why some head-worn microphones, such as DPA's, are designed with such high maximum SPL limits. With even a foot of distance between the mouth and the mike, most people can't produce 130 dB SPL at the mike with the voice alone.

But there's an art to screaming

yeah im not Mike Patton, but i did my best
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 19, 2020, 04:01:22 AM
im calling foul on the dracast 2200 mAh NP-F

got a generic 4400 mAh from amazon and  the 6-channel recording test ran 7hr40mins*, at which point it filled up card and stopped recording, and still had juice left over

will try tomorrow with a bigger card

*edit about 9h30m on a retest
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 19, 2020, 07:55:52 AM
im calling foul on the dracast 2200 mAh NP-F

got a generic 4400 mAh from amazon and  the 6-channel recording test ran 7hr40mins, at which point it filled up card and stopped recording, and still had juice left over

will try tomorrow with a bigger card

Well, you see why I returned that Dracast 2200 mAah battery - it just isn't up to the task of powering this recorder beyond minimal-draw scenarios.

The Dracast 6600 mAh continues to be a beast for me.

Good to hear that you are getting good performance out of your generic 4400 mAh.  People should be careful with those, however.  I hear that some of those cheapo generic NP-F batteries are lying about their true capacity.  Sounds like you got a good one in this case.  Would you mind linking it here?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 19, 2020, 02:27:14 PM
yes its a shame the 2200mA comes up short, again, zoom's high low-voltage cutoff really hinders it. im guessing most other 2200 mA batteries would perform similarly

i cant recommend the 4400 (NP-F750) i bought- the cheap wall charger was nonfunctional out of the box, batt and charger are getting returned. Charger goes to green light immediately and cell voltage never moves. ive been using the dracast wall charger to charge it. The two wall chargers are almost identical (the new one doesnt have the annoying universal adapter plate that comes off with the battery most times, but it also doesnt work, either ;)  )...with their subtle differences its as if they are both modeled after/knockoffs of the official sony charger

after studying more than i care to know about NP-Fs (heres a decent general info vid on the different sizes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HPbgHOFNZY), it seems that multiple videographers are recommending the DSTE brand

https://www.amazon.com/DSTE-Replacement-Compatible-CCD-TRV215-HDR-FX1000/dp/B00M2U6KEQ

seems that all the cheap wall chargers that come with these batteries range from non-functional to at best an anemic 600-800 mA charge rate which is a poor match for large batteries, and a separate charger must be purchased if you want to rapid charge

here are some rapid chargers, with state of charge indication, that ive been looking at.

Yongnuo YN750C doesnt come with charger or list output current specs, but youtube review guy says it charges two 7500 mAh batteries in under 6 hours so it seems like its coming up on 1500 mA per battery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vujt57WlKgg
https://www.amazon.com/Yongnuo-Professional-Lithium-Charging-Compatible/dp/B07QNJ22SF

---------------------------
this Neewer one does 1500 mA x 1, or 800 mA x2, and seems like a good middle-of-the-road solution. for $30 it comes with both AC and DC adapters

https://www.amazon.com/Neewer-Dual-Channel-Display-Camcorder-Batteries/dp/B01N8Y0A7B


---------------------------
this Newmowa is another interesting one, also has state of charge, current varies with number of batteries being concurrently charged, it has 2000 mA to spread around (2000mA x 1, 1000x2, 650x3)

https://www.amazon.com/Newmowa-3-Channel-Charger-NP-F550-NP-F750/dp/B076CD1786

--------------------------------

in general, these are pretty handy, cheap ubiquous batteries, a cheap adapter palte could be used to run a 6V piece of gear no problem

basic cheap plate with adaptable coax jack:
https://www.amazon.com/Andoer-Battery-Adapter-Plate-cable/dp/B01FYSD1VC

or something like this, with a fixed cable you could hack off the dummy battery and put the appropriate connector on the end (like a locking switchcraft for a V3)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PHK8TVC/?coliid=IB1PWMG6RPKRQ

or this deluxe one i mentioned above with DC and USB output
https://www.amazon.com/Power-Junkie-NP-F-Blind-Spot/dp/B07NF14XW4

you could even double these up on a V-mount adapter+d-tap cable to power 12V equipment like an AD2K
https://www.amazon.com/Neewer-Battery-V-Mount-Converter-Alternative/dp/B075R8DMKF
https://www.amazon.com/INKECI-D-Tap-5-5x2-5-V-Mount-Monitor/dp/B08153Y3YM


Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on January 19, 2020, 03:46:31 PM
Wow, thanks for the extensive research, Jerry!

Since we've been occupying the F6 thread with a good deal of battery discussion, I wonder if it might be best to start a thread dedicated to NP-F batteries and chargers rather than continue the discussion here.  That might be useful to the many other people out there using this style of battery but are not F6 owners.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 19, 2020, 04:01:58 PM
i actually considered that the last few posts, then decided to keep it brief and topical... then the posts ran away anyway

here goes: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=193221.0

really impressed with the zoom's triple-power ability, since it is less power hungry it works with alot more usb-c batteries than the mixpre, which specifically requires a usb-c battery. I've powered the zoom on occasion with more common usb batts with a usb-a to usb-c cable (though i havent tested it to its limits, yet)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 27, 2020, 01:45:11 AM
first outing at UM this weekend, batted 1000

in columbus oldandintheway ran his 4011C>SX-M2D2>iphone, i ran 4011C>F6 on same stand

should be a good comp
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: old and in the way on January 27, 2020, 08:38:09 AM
first outing at UM this weekend, batted 1000

in columbus oldandintheway ran his 4011C>SX-M2D2>iphone, i ran 4011C>F6 on same stand

should be a good comp

my show with the sonosax >iphone is up on the archive. i'm really impressed with the f6 solid build and small form . I can see one in my future . i think i need to off load some older gear though .
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on January 27, 2020, 10:42:44 AM
cool i’ll put together some ABXs together with similar timing and levels.travel day today.

was cool to travel without battery chargers. i brought two of the smaller Lseries batteries. did 2 shows plus a late night set and never touched the internal AA backups
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on February 05, 2020, 05:41:36 AM
im seeing some interesting power draw on my most recent test, using L-series with AAs inside, where previously i believe i tested the L-series without AAs inside

doing a runtime test on a previously untested (#3) 3000 mAh Newmowa NPF-550 clone, i ran with the display on low (as opposed to off) to see how battery drain was affected

watching displayed voltage over the course of the test, it was dropping voltage faster and i assumed it was due to display power draw, and based on early voltage numbers, I was expecting it to shave just over an hour off of the previously measured >4 hr run time (6ch phantom). but when it got to lower voltage the curve stretched out and stayed flatter... for a long time

which makes me think that one (or more?) of four things are happening:

1. it is beginning to pull *some* power from the internals in conjunction with the L-series to eek more power out of the L-series, and allow lower voltage draw on the L-series

2. it is pulling *all* power from AAs and the firmware has a bug that indicates power mistakenly being pulled from L-series

3. my previous voltage measurements were inaccurate as display was off and voltage would bounce when i turned it on to check voltage (less likely)

4. perhaps allowing the battery to sit idle overnight, the battery dissipated any surface charge and operated at a lower voltage, and more stable at lower voltage

in previous tests it dropped fast below 7.2V, and crashed hard at 6.9V, to the point where 6.9V was really just an end data point for graphing purposes, as 6.9V would be displayed for a minute or less. IIRC, in the earlier tests, the last datapoint on the x-axis was obtained from looking at the total file time recorded after it shut itself off

in this case it stretched way out at lower voltages, with stable operation down to 6.6V (for at least 5 minutes or so, 6.6V is the last voltage displayed before it swaps to internal AA power)
 
i should be able to determine whether scenario 1 or 2 is occurring by measuring resting end voltages on the batteries after the test. If it truly does pull from both series that would extend the use of both batteries as reduced current draw keeps both above their cutoff voltages

I think ill also experiment with my benchtop CC/CV power supply to see if i can determine power draw through L-series terminals at various voltages and use cases.

Whatever i did, im going to figure it out as i got darn near 5 hrs from that 3000 mAh battery. it definitely drained it more than my other tests, resting voltage was a shade below 7.0V after testing

(https://i.imgur.com/S5rrm7J.png)
Title: Streaming while recording: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Nico11104 on February 05, 2020, 10:43:26 AM
Has anyone successfully streamed via USB while recording on the F6?  The marketing materials and user's manual indicate it's possible, but don't provide directions.  I've tried, using a Lightning to USB Camera Adapter connected to an iPhone 7 and the Mixlr app, while powering the unit with a Sony L-mount battery.  I also tried it with my iPad with similar lack of success.  (Note: the "power source" icon alternates between "Ext. 8.3 volts" and "USB 5.0 volts" when doing so).  The iOS devices don't display any messages, nor do they appear to be receiving data from the F6.  Any help is appreciated.  Thank you, Fred
Title: Re: Streaming while recording: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on February 05, 2020, 02:55:52 PM
Has anyone successfully streamed via USB while recording on the F6?  The marketing materials and user's manual indicate it's possible, but don't provide directions.  I've tried, using a Lightning to USB Camera Adapter connected to an iPhone 7 and the Mixlr app, while powering the unit with a Sony L-mount battery.  I also tried it with my iPad with similar lack of success.  (Note: the "power source" icon alternates between "Ext. 8.3 volts" and "USB 5.0 volts" when doing so).  The iOS devices don't display any messages, nor do they appear to be receiving data from the F6.  Any help is appreciated.  Thank you, Fred
i got audio into my se but mixlr didn’t like the signal.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2319720#msg2319720

i can experiment more but ive given up on streaming with the unit as its limited to 24/48 and i bought it to use as a 32-bit recorder

last time i ran, i just did a separate d:vice rig for streaming. in this case mixlr also did not necessarily play well with metarecorder with the d:vice. order of plugging in/launching apps needs to be specific for both to work

when metarecorder is used alone, d:vice and zoom both feed it good data, so it may be a mixlr thing.
 

you did set it up in the menu as  'AIF with rec' right, (i assume youre trying to record with the unit simultaneously)

you should see it as an audio device in ios on the tab that pops up for airdrop/screencasting

Title: Re: Streaming while recording: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Nico11104 on February 05, 2020, 03:55:37 PM
Has anyone successfully streamed via USB while recording on the F6?  The marketing materials and user's manual indicate it's possible, but don't provide directions.  I've tried, using a Lightning to USB Camera Adapter connected to an iPhone 7 and the Mixlr app, while powering the unit with a Sony L-mount battery.  I also tried it with my iPad with similar lack of success.  (Note: the "power source" icon alternates between "Ext. 8.3 volts" and "USB 5.0 volts" when doing so).  The iOS devices don't display any messages, nor do they appear to be receiving data from the F6.  Any help is appreciated.  Thank you, Fred
i got audio into my se but mixlr didn’t like the signal.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190161.msg2319720#msg2319720

i can experiment more but ive given up on streaming with the unit as its limited to 24/48 and i bought it to use as a 32-bit recorder

last time i ran, i just did a separate d:vice rig for streaming. in this case mixlr also did not necessarily play well with metarecorder with the d:vice. order of plugging in/maunching apps needs to be specific for both to work

when metarecorder is used alone, d:vice and zoom both feed it good data, so it may be a mixlr thing.
 

you did set it up in the menu as  'AIF with rec' right, (i assume youre trying to record with the unit simultaneously)

you should see it as an audio device in ios on the tab that pops up for airdrop/screencasting

Thank you, JF.  I was trying to stream in 32-bit float and therefore the 'AIF with rec' was greyed out.  I also bought it to use as a 32-bit recorder, so I'll just stream on Mixlr using my MV-88>iPhone

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on February 06, 2020, 01:51:44 AM
minor FW update on the site, i dont playback from device, really, so im sticking with 1.20 which has served me well

Version 1.30
・ Released as following bug fix in January 2020
1. Some delay may occur before proper sound is output when both phantom power and limiter on the
track are ON.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on February 08, 2020, 05:16:46 AM
theres some 'refurbs' up on ebay for $549/best offer.

same seller has one for $508 on reverb

https://reverb.com/item/31892595-zoom-f6-multitrack-field-recorder
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mepaca on February 08, 2020, 08:55:15 AM
theres some 'refurbs' up on ebay for $549/best offer.

same seller has one for $508 on reverb

https://reverb.com/item/31892595-zoom-f6-multitrack-field-recorder

There are some on Amazon too.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SMsound on March 29, 2020, 10:45:02 PM
Has anyone heard more info re:whether Zoom is releasing a firmware update to let you adjust gain via the knobs when recording in 24bit mode? I heard rumors several months ago, including one that said Zoom had confirmed that they would do this (though I don't see this anywhere official) but don't see this listed in the January firmware update.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on May 10, 2020, 11:25:15 AM
Have read all this long thread, very interesting...still need to understand wether this Zoom f6 would work for my needs.
I have read all posts, with particular interest to @Voltronic, as he seems to be a colleague of mine being himself a pianist, thus sharing some common necessities. I'll try to summarize my needs ( maybe too many)and hope to solve my questions...

1) Recording my own piano recitals ( solo or chamber music). 32 bit seems interesting as most of the times I am concerned with my playing or rehearsing on stages with colleagues asking for my presence at the piano instead of playing around with  setting levels etc.
Question is: does the "automatic" setting in 32 bit mode  always result in a clipped file to be reduced in post? What happens if we set the same 32 bit with Line level instead of Mic setting? Will it be safer? My lack of skill scares me a bit: I've been used to link my recorder to a pc, transfer a file and being done.  I know that also a parallel "traditional" 24 bit track can be recorded so that nothing different from past habits comes into play....

2) Easy "record-listen-cancel" work at home. I often work at new pieces I'm learning just by recording a few bars and listen right after in order to figure out every detail of my playing, then go on and at the end of a working session cancel everything.
How easy is Zoom f6 in being used in that way also, just like I've been doing with my Edirol up till now?

3) Powering. Apart from powering via AAA, L-batteries and usb C battery packs it can also work plugged into a wall AC: does it perform ok or there might be any noise or unwanted hum? Will a common 5v plug ( like an iPhone charger) fit the need or the specified item has to be bought?

4) Switched to an iMac and can no more run my firewire interface, so I'd use Zoom f6 also as usb powered audio interface. Didn't really understand what limitations there will be: I've heard that only 48 KHZ is allowed in the interface mode but it seems strange to me, maybe I misunderstood?   I understand that there is probably no need to record directly into a PC, but it could help me to know in which aspects a dedicate usb interface could be preferable ( don't need instrument input or midi).

5) Last question, also related to usb interface mode. In this COVID era I'm listening to my students via streaming platforms like Streamyard or Voip like Skype and don't own an USB mic, so I just rely on my Mac internal microphone. Would like to know wether I could easily plug a mic into the Zoom in USB interface mode and use it for interacting with my students through my pc or it would turn to be a pain in the ass setting things.

Overall it seems that choosing something like a Zoom H6 or Tascam DR-40 would be a cheaper downgrade, but maybe an easier- to deal-with machine? Just concerns about my abilities.....
thank you very much
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 11, 2020, 12:52:59 PM
carpa,

1) With 32-bit float on the F6, "clipped" really is NOT.  In other words, you might record a piece and the resulting file has peaks of +20 dB.  In any app that handles this file format (most anything nowadays), you simply lower the level and nothing is clipped.  Or if you set levels very low, you might have average levels of -60 dB.  Same thing; you just raise it in post and it sounds just fine.  You can set the faders really high, or really low - it makes no difference because you are just adjusting the post-ADC level.  With this file format and with the dual ADCs, your dynamic range is enormous.  It's a bit difficult to conceptualize until you try if for yourself.

Keep in mind that the preamp level (pre-ADC) is fixed on the F6 if set to 32-bit float mode.  Again, you can only adjust the fader level (post-ADC) in this mode.

The only thing you need to worry about is overloading the analog input stage, which has been discussed at length here before.  That would be the only reason to use LINE+PHANTOM, which pads the input down.  I would note that WiFiJeff done classical piano recordings with the Josephson c617set, an exceptionally sensitive mic with a very hot output.  If that didn't overload the F6 input stage, then I would think you would have a lot of leeway.

Bottom line - 32-bit float on the F6 is THE way to go for the way you and I are both performing and recording, as long as you plan to do some basic post work.


2) I haven't used it this way, but you can quickly play back anything you recorded.  I would say that for this use, you should set it to 24-bit fixed mode so you can adjust the preamp to a normal conservative level.  If you used 32-bit float mode with the fixed gain, you could easily wind up with levels way beyond 0 dBFS, and that would definitely clip your headphone out when listening back. 


3)  I haven't tried AC powering.  If you do this, just make sure you are matching the specified input requirements.  I still recommend that you go with the Dracast 6600 mAh batteries (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1373127-REG/dracast_drbk2npf2ch6600_2_x_np_f_6600mah.html) I am using, as they last a VERY long time, and you would never need to worry about external power supply noise.

4) USB interface mode supports up to 24-bit/96 kHz.  It would be very nice if a firmware update could allow 32-bit float recording over USB, but I wonder if it is a limitation of the USB 2.0 bus speed, since 192 kHz is supported when recording internally but not over USB.

5) I know this would work on Windows, and can't see why it wouldn't on a Mac.  You just select your F6 as the external mic.

6) The F6 is in a completely different class than the H6 in every possible way.  It is more than worth the extra $200.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on May 11, 2020, 03:38:12 PM
Voltronic,

thank you so much. I appreciated  your detailed answer, without leaving any point out. As for the AC powering, I would just use it during my "homework" or Skype calls so that I don't have to worry about quality; of course I would think about batteries in case of performances or consistent work.
It really seems the best price/performance gear out there, especially given the need of a fast setting.
Luckily my Edirol R09 HR, whose inputs broke down a couple days ago, started working again; what I thought it's fault was -unluckily- the defeat of my Naiant Littlebox instead , which began outputting only noise and no sound at all and - who knows why - for a while even the recorder sounded messed up even unplugged from the preamp.   So, R09 is till usable with some self powered electrets, though I cannot power my Naiant mics nor plan to buy a pair of really decent mics. No concerts now in this sad CODIV times, but soon I hope we'll take life back and I'll pull the trigger and get one of this Zoom.
Thank you again
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 11, 2020, 03:48:57 PM
Voltronic,

thank you so much. I appreciated  your detailed answer, without leaving any point out. As for the AC powering, I would just use it during my "homework" or Skype calls so that I don't have to worry about quality; of course I would think about batteries in case of performances or consistent work.

for 2 channels any generic phone charger with a usb-c charging cable would be fine

if youre rocking 6ch+phantom you might want one of the more burly USB-C wall plugs like Anker that can power a macbook
https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Charger-Delivery-PowerPort-MateBook/dp/B06Y427WT7

the unit is insanely efficient tho
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 11, 2020, 10:25:41 PM
But in the end it's a big gimmick and just digital fuckery, so why bother with a more efficient power source?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 11, 2020, 10:32:11 PM
But it all comes down to the actual implementation. If that is as good as it possibly can be, then we'll have a recorder with no gain control, that by definition can't have a wider dynamic range than the best previous recorder that has a gain control. So before you fall too far in love with this design concept, I suggest that you imagine epoxying the gain control on your best existing recorder to a setting that you know will never allow overload. Do you think that it would always make recordings that are as quiet as you could have made if you'd set your levels specifically for each occasion? I don't think so. And in that case you shouldn't expect more from this recorder.
a much more technical way of saying what many of us have been saying... its a gimmick that offers no real advantage for our application, as any input has a fixed maximum headroom between noise floor, and maximum input level, and any attempts to skirt this with digital fuckery are in the end... digital fuckery.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 11, 2020, 10:35:57 PM
That's still correct, which is why I agreed with Mr. Satz. Their application (micing instruments at wide SPL ranges, without easy ability to control levels on the fly) is not our* application (live concert taping, where 32-bit offers zero advantage in sound vs. 24-bit recording at proper levels)

*our=most people here

In fact, as he suggests, if they are using the same microphones all the time they could very fix the gain on any 24-bit recorder and achieve the same results

doesnt mean its not a great recorder. I love my F6
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 11, 2020, 10:47:53 PM
That's still correct, which is why I agreed with Mr. Satz. Their application (micing instruments at wide SPL ranges, without easy ability to control levels on the fly) is not our* application (live concert taping, where 32-bit offers zero advantage in sound vs. 24-bit recording at proper levels)

*our=most people here

doesnt mean its not a great recorder. I love my F6


So it is simultaneously a gimmick, nothing more than digital fuckery, and a great recorder that is useful for pretty much any application you could throw at it. Thanks for clarifying that.  Rocket Surgeon!! :facepalm:
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 11, 2020, 10:54:09 PM
yes both of those are mutually exclusive

why dont you leave your trolly BS over in the PZ instead of cluttering up actual serious threads?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 11, 2020, 11:07:47 PM
hey man, why dont you leave your trolly BS over in the PZ instead of cluttering up actual serious threads?


My professional expertise is electronics. You've made a number of incorrect statements on this subject. I'm concerned about others being misled by your posts. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 11, 2020, 11:14:22 PM
ok then list the "incorrect statements" ive made. im not aware of any concert tapers that are recording concerts peaking at -60dB for shits and giggles, which again means that 32bit float offers *zero* advantage compared with properly set levels ( peaks > -20 dB) for the purpose of concert taping

Very telling that the subject had literally sat for close to a year, until , just coincidentally after you develop a habit of trolling me in the PZ board (The majority of your posts in the last 10 days have been directed at me, into double digits), you feel the need to follow me over here and "correct the record".
 
so make with your highfalutin' electronics knowledge, then. No need to be coy and make there be (7 so far) extra posts. There is still time to save a bunch of people from misleading info, instead of wasting your time making the majority of your posts on political issues. I'm sure we'd all be happy to hear about your hands-on experience with the F6.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 12, 2020, 12:00:18 AM
ok then list the "incorrect statements" ive made. im not aware of any concert tapers that are recording concerts peaking at -60dB for shits and giggles, which again means that 32bit float offers *zero* advantage compared with properly set levels ( peaks > -20 dB) for the purpose of concert taping

Very telling that the subject had literally sat for close to a year, until , just coincidentally after you develop a habit of trolling me in the PZ board, you feel the need to follow me and "correct the record" over here

so make with your highfalutin' electronics knowledge, then. No need to be coy and make there be (7 so far) extra posts. There is still time to save a bunch of people from misleading info, instead of wasting your time making the majority of your posts on political issues. I'm sure we'd all be happy to hear about your hands-on experience with the F6.


Digital fuckery. It took a team of engineers and millions of dollars to perform the feat of this fuckery. LOL. 

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 12, 2020, 09:57:40 AM
ok then list the "incorrect statements" ive made. im not aware of any concert tapers that are recording concerts peaking at -60dB for shits and giggles, which again means that 32bit float offers *zero* advantage compared with properly set levels ( peaks > -20 dB) for the purpose of concert taping

Very telling that the subject had literally sat for close to a year, until , just coincidentally after you develop a habit of trolling me in the PZ board, you feel the need to follow me and "correct the record" over here

so make with your highfalutin' electronics knowledge, then. No need to be coy and make there be (7 so far) extra posts. There is still time to save a bunch of people from misleading info, instead of wasting your time making the majority of your posts on political issues. I'm sure we'd all be happy to hear about your hands-on experience with the F6.


Digital fuckery. It took a team of engineers and millions of dollars to perform the feat of this fuckery. LOL.

This is getting tiresome.

Here is what I know.

The F6, with its implementation of dual ADCs and 32-bit float point recording have made it much easier for me to capture the performances I am recording (and often also performing in) without having to use safety tracks.  I often don't have the ability to do a sound check, and the things I record often have unpredictable levels.  I have spoken about this numerous times; no need to repeat it all here.

The F6 with 32-bit FP recording has been a game changer for me, and I have yet to encounter any negatives to recording this way.  It works; period.

Theoretical criticisms are one thing; direct experience and evidence are another.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Walstib62 on May 12, 2020, 10:04:58 AM
ok then list the "incorrect statements" ive made. im not aware of any concert tapers that are recording concerts peaking at -60dB for shits and giggles, which again means that 32bit float offers *zero* advantage compared with properly set levels ( peaks > -20 dB) for the purpose of concert taping

Very telling that the subject had literally sat for close to a year, until , just coincidentally after you develop a habit of trolling me in the PZ board (The majority of your posts in the last 10 days have been directed at me, into double digits), you feel the need to follow me over here and "correct the record".
 
so make with your highfalutin' electronics knowledge, then. No need to be coy and make there be (7 so far) extra posts. There is still time to save a bunch of people from misleading info, instead of wasting your time making the majority of your posts on political issues. I'm sure we'd all be happy to hear about your hands-on experience with the F6.


Ok.
1. I don't have any hands on experience with the F6. I have, however a lot of experience recording in 32 bit using a USB interface to PC, storing directly to HDD via eSata. Here's one example of many such recordings I have done. This goes back about 9 years, so this concept is not new to me. Bear in mind, this is a cheap interface, nothing fancy by any means.

  https://archive.org/details/donna2011-10-09

2. Your blanket statement that there is "zero advantage" to recording in 32 bit over 24 bit is incorrect. It may be true that you can record in 24 bit with the Peak amplitude not going over -20dB, as you say. If this is your go-to approach, and you like it, then more power to you. Ideally, I want the average signal amplitude to be at -18dB. This would generally provide for enough dynamic range (quantization in the ADC, which is what we are talking about here) at the lower end of the overall signal amplitude with enough headroom at the top to prevent clipping. However, let's say that you are recording an artist that has a much wider range in dynamics (SPL as presented to the mic, for instance). If you recording in 24 bit, you can absolutely clip the signal at the recorder before the mic reaches its' maximum SPL limit. This is not the case with 32 bit recording with a properly implemented input gain stage. In this scenario the mic will clip before the recording stage clips. Of course, this can be prevented in 24 bit by riding the recorder gain and tweeking up or down, but who would do that if it is not necessary? I find this to be a huge advantage in field recording.
 On the other hand, if what you are recording has a more limited dynamic range, then the advantages in 32 bit are less evident. This I will agree with. However, the blanket statement that there is zero advantage to 32 bit is incorrect.
 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 12, 2020, 10:29:13 AM
While composing on this one the two posts above appeared.  I'm hitting post anyway with the hope this may clarify things for carpa.

The increased dynamic range capability of the recorder without need for making a manual adjustment is real. It works. That was achieved with some new innovative digital techniques (call it fuckery if you like.. in some sense, all forms of digital recording are that).  As far as I'm aware the scheme seems audibly transparent, based on the reports of users and and the recordings I've heard made with it. 

At the same time, the need for such increased dynamic range without requiring a manual adjustment has not been particularly well established with the majority of live concert taping done by members of this forum.  And with it come some associated burdens.

^ This is the situation on the face of it.

There are times when not needing to make any adjustment will save a recording, yet after one becomes familiar with the system they are using those times are rare and generally when recording something other than what one normally records.  It is not particularly difficult for recordists to comfortably fit the dynamic range of a recorder to that of the music.  The learning curve for doing that is not steep.  It mostly takes doing it a few times to figure out.  This is especially the case if you tend to record the same type of music in pretty much the same situations each time - such as recording oneself playing piano. 

All that is somewhat trickier if one is unable to tend to the recorder while recording, which increases the value of the freedom from making input level adjustments (especially the first few times as a novice recordist).  But relief from the need to adjust input levels brings with it associated burdens- file sizes are larger, software which can handle the more obscure recording format is limited, and the need to process the recording afterwards for distribution or simple direct listening is increased.  Those things have been discussed in these threads, but have not really been clearly laid out as the "cost burden" of using 32-bit floating point recording formats.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 12, 2020, 11:59:02 AM
Gut,

Thanks for weighing in with some clarity.  I agree with everything, except I would say the "costs" of  32-bit FP have been rather small from my perspective.

1) The file size increase from my previous go-to format of 24/48 to 32fp/48 is about 30%.  That's not nothing, but with storage being so cheap nowadays, it has made almost no impact.  I always compress my masters as FLACs and delete the original WAVs after I have finished my post work, so then the long-term storage difference is even less.

2) Regarding software: I think the list of audio editing software that doesn't handle 32-bit FP files is rather small today.  It used to be more like DSD, where you only had a few choices.  As far as playback, then yes you are more limited unless you convert to a fixed-point format.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 12, 2020, 04:38:59 PM
FWIW, I'm not suggesting that the increased burdens aren't worthwhile, only that they should be clearly acknowledged and have yet to be as concisely defined as the benefits.  Hopefully this dialog helps to clear this part up a bit.

I've a few practical questions (IME, most of the value-important choices with regards to taping hinge upon practicalities rather than absolutes)

1) Can the raw recorded files be played back easily directly off the recorder?

2) Can the raw recorded 32-bit files be FLAC'd for storage without having to do any processing other than renaming the files if desired and doing the FLAC compression?

3) Can the raw recorded files (in their native file format and/or FLAC compressed format) be played easily via standard computer media players without having to undergo file conversion?

^ Lack of these capabilities would represent a significant burden for my usage, file maintenance, and workflow.  I acknowledge lack of those capabilities may not significantly impact others in the same way.

FWIW, in one way the Zoom F6 may be somewhat less burdened in this regard than the SoundDevices recorders, especially since SD has yet to include 32bit FP support in their WaveAgent app. I think F6 can be set to save 32-bit floating point output files as multiple individual mono or multiple 2-ch stereo files rather than only as a single multichannel polyfile.  This is partly my assumption from use of Zoom F8 and is important to me for file management by eliminating most file-size related file-splits and by allowing direct listening to the files in a software player without having to load them into an editor.

There is nothing here that would stop me from recording and enjoying the benefit of never having to adjust recording levels, yet these things represent significant impacts on convenience and the way I work and will influence any decision I make about using 32-bit FP recording.  I'll also note that none of the current 32-bit FP capable recorders require recording in that format, so the mere presence of this capability needn't influence one's choice of recorder if one is not planning to use it for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on May 12, 2020, 04:51:29 PM
Very interesting thread, I can say. Last Gutbucket's question are really interesting and I'll also read the answers with attention. Yet, assuming the burden of a raw recording to be adjusted in post could lead to a bigger work, I'd say that the 32 bit recording could even play in case  a safety file if a dual 24 bit recording has been made, as I guess this f6 can do.
Should the 24 bit file ( with level setting allowed) work perfectly fine, great; you could eventually decide to take this one and cancel the bigger 32 raw file.
If, on the opposite , the 24 bit results too conservative so to need post adjustment work or - worse- should result as clipped, then I think we'll should welcome the extra work on the 32 bit file.
Something like the capability most recorder have to track a "parallel" recording 12 db less or so, but with more quality, I assume.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 12, 2020, 05:11:52 PM
1) Can the raw recorded files be played back easily directly off the recorder?
Yes, with a slight caveat: As previously stated, input gain becomes fixed in 32-bit FP mode.  You can choose (as I have) to set the track knobs to control the post-ADC record level, rather than faders for the L/R downmix (which I never use).  If you set those levels high enough so that your resulting file has levels over 0 dBFS, you will clip the headphone out because the DAC is just playing back what it's being fed, which may be a file with clipping, even though it is fully recoverable in post.  If your levels are set more conservatively so that you don't have any overs, that won't happen. 

2) Can the raw recorded 32-bit files be FLAC'd for storage without having to do any processing other than renaming the files if desired and doing the FLAC compression?
Yes.  That's exactly what I do.  I have a Converter preset in foobar2000 called "FLAC, no changes" that preserves bit depth and sample rate, and just encodes to FLAC level 8.  The result is still 32-bit float point.

3) Can the raw recorded files (in their native file format and/or FLAC compressed format) be played easily via standard computer media players without having to undergo file conversion?
Yes.  I use foobar2000 as my audio player of choice, but I just tested and Windows Media Player plays them just fine.  That's about as generic a player there is.

FWIW, in one way the Zoom F6 may be somewhat less burdened in this regard than the SoundDevices recorders, especially since SD has yet to include 32bit FP support in their WaveAgent app. I think F6 can be set to save 32-bit floating point output files as multiple individual mono or multiple 2-ch stereo files rather than only as a single multichannel polyfile.  This is partly my assumption from use of Zoom F8 and is important to me for file management by eliminating most file-size related file-splits and by allowing direct listening to the files in a software player without having to load them into an editor.
If I was a SD customer, I would be very frustrated by that, especially with their own software not being updated to support the file formats their newest recorders create.  The F6 does indeed give you more options as far as recording formats go.

On the flip side, the MixPre II units will allow 32-bit float recording in interface mode (on OSX only); whereas the F6 is limited to 24/96 fixed.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 12, 2020, 05:30:10 PM
Thanks volt, that puts a few of my previously outstanding practicality-related concerns to rest.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on May 12, 2020, 05:30:30 PM
There are also differences in implementation between the SD and Zoom flavors. I have no idea to what extent that influences sound quality, but SD obviously thought it was worth a lot of R&D and a patent application. As I understand the patent, it is a little bit hardware but mostly it is software to deal with the issue DSatz has described (admittedly based on a cursory reading and when it was first published). Perhaps that offsets the inconvenience of the polywave format (although, personally, I don't find that to be a problem).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 12, 2020, 06:27:50 PM
whew quite a bit to catch up here, excuse the long combined post

On the other hand, if what you are recording has a more limited dynamic range, then the advantages in 32 bit are less evident. This I will agree with. However, the blanket statement that there is zero advantage to 32 bit is incorrect.

we are actually in agreement, that is *exactly* what i said. Based on typical use case of most tapers here, very limited (more like no) advantage for most. I never said zero advantage for all applications and i trust in Voltronics extensive use in his application.

I'm not sure i quite understand the applicability of dumping a 24-bit USB signal into a 32 bit container on the computer to discussion of this gear. Nothing is gained in that scenario other than limiting quantization errors on downstream processing, which is basically how every wave editor already works fundamentally (regardless of native bitrate, all calcs done in 32bitFP, and a final render/dither to bitrate of choice).

Its fundamentally different than the application we are discussing here, the architecture of the 32bit FP recorders which use multiple ADCs to overlap in proprietary ways to provide a larger ADC dynamic range


It may be true that you can record in 24 bit with the Peak amplitude not going over -20dB

in a live concert environment with a recorder with a similar 120dB+ EIN, probably more like -40dB or more. Ill do some tests and well see if people can pick them out


However, let's say that you are recording an artist that has a much wider range in dynamics (SPL as presented to the mic, for instance). If you recording in 24 bit, you can absolutely clip the signal at the recorder before the mic reaches its' maximum SPL limit.

of course you can. You can also clip the same input at the same SPL at 24 bit. The zoom has relatively modest max input level 0f +24 dBu in line-in mode (relative to some other gear that can take signals approaching +30 dBu)

Whether you record at 24 or 32FP, that max input level does not change

In regard to recording at +24 dBu line in, vs +4dBu mic in, all the zoom is doing in the former case is using a 20 dB pad. Ive tested it myself that recording with this pad (aka "line-in) raises the very real noise floor of the analog input substantially

At the end of the day there is no free lunch. The analog input is still constrained by its max input level and EIN. You cant entirely scrap the analog gain stage like in this design, and rely on wide ranging ADs and not have compromises. This is why real preamps that can offer 60-70 dB of clean gain are so valued. Im sure that in theory, that with much more expensive/complex gear, there could be an input stage that offers more substantial use of the 32-bit FP but youd be hard pressed to find an application to take advantage of it (recording bird calls next to a rocket launchpad, perhaps, with some advanced imaginary transducer with over 130 dB dynamic range)


If you recording in 24 bit, you can absolutely clip the signal at the recorder before the mic reaches its' maximum SPL limit. This is not the case with 32 bit recording with a properly implemented input gain stage. In this scenario the mic will clip before the recording stage clips. Of course, this can be prevented in 24 bit by riding the recorder gain and tweeking up or down

stepping back a bit this is demonstrably false. again its the same analog input regardless of bitrate/ even in 24-bit fixed the dynamic range of the input does not change. And you dont need to be anywhere close to 0dB with 24 bit, its still relatively easy to leave yourself, 12,20, possibly 36 or more dB of headroom. certainly no need to 'ride the levels'. Again ive successully abused good 24bit ADCs, eschewing a preamp, and made concert recordings peaking near -30dB with the noise floor inaudible beyond ambient noise.

2) Can the raw recorded 32-bit files be FLAC'd for storage without having to do any processing other than renaming the files if desired and doing the FLAC compression?
i record in polywav, and end up saving my raw 32-bit polywavs as large .w64 files from soundforge

FLAC can do 32FP stereo files fine,  I think fundamentally the standard allows FLAC to handle polywavs, but my standard workflow for making FLAC files chokes on it somewhere, so i just do as above. the .w64 files are relatively enormous, >10GB per set at 6 ch of 32/96

3) Can the raw recorded files (in their native file format and/or FLAC compressed format) be played easily via standard computer media players without having to undergo file conversion?
foobar plays back  2-ch .wav and .flac fine

I'll also note that none of the current 32-bit FP capable recorders require recording in that format, so the mere presence of this capability needn't influence one's choice of recorder if one is not planning to use it for whatever reason.

cheers to this. even in absence of having the 32-bit feature, i still think the Zoom F6 is an outstanding piece of hardware for the price. In fact, some of its better features (like fader adjustment and simultaneous USB output) are crippled in 32FP mode

There are also differences in implementation between the SD and Zoom flavors. I have no idea to what extent that influences sound quality, but SD obviously thought it was worth a lot of R&D and a patent application. As I understand the patent, it is a little bit hardware but mostly it is software to deal with the issue DSatz has described (admittedly based on a cursory reading and when it was first published). Perhaps that offsets the inconvenience of the polywave format (although, personally, I don't find that to be a problem).

i think their trick is using 3 ADCs instead of 2, and interpolating the handoff between them somehow. Again I dont think that weve seen that in either design that handing off between multiple ADCs is causing distortion in either device

I'm not sure that their design makes any better use of the real-world constrained dynamic range of analog input in portable gear

i think we all win in the end when manufacturers take their own path to achieve their means, healthy competition breeds innovation.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on May 12, 2020, 06:41:59 PM
think their trick is using 3 ADCs instead of 2, and interpolating the handoff between them somehow. Again I dont think that weve seen that in either design that handing off between multiple ADCs is causing distortion in either device

I also think they are using 3 ADCs and then using regression over a (relatively) small number of samples to approximate the instantaneous rate of change to facilitate the "handoff". Both of which could potentially reduce noise floor changes. Of course, I might be entirely off-base; like I said I read it over pretty quickly and it was a while ago (and it's not my field)...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 12, 2020, 06:43:59 PM
sounds like it could be a different implementation of the "look ahead limiter" philosophy used in a lot of gear
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 12, 2020, 07:41:32 PM
cheers to this. even in absence of having the 32-bit feature, i still think the Zoom F6 is an outstanding piece of hardware for the price. In fact, some of its better features (like fader adjustment and simultaneous USB output) are crippled in 32FP mode

Fader adjustment is definitely possible in 32-bit float mode; it is only preamp gain that is fixed in that mode.  You actually have a choice on the F6 of how those faders behave, or more accurately, where in the signal chain they take effect, by going under under Menu > Input > Track Knob. 

Hear me out here:

If set to Reference Level, the track knobs are faders for the L/R downmix.  I never use the downmix, so I prefer setting to Rec Level, which actually changes the levels of the 6 ISO tracks being written to the card, post-ADC.  So even though the gain is fixed, you can set to Rec Level and crank the hell out of your channels so you have ridiculously high (or low) levels being written to the files.  In Rec Level mode, the downmix faders are bypassed, but I still consider the knobs to be faders because their level adjustment is happening well after the input trim (again, which is fixed in this mode).  See pp. 194 and 198 in the manual which show how this works.

I have not yet tried using my F6 in interface mode, so I cannot speak directly to the USB output.  I know it is possible to record to both the SD card and also output through USB at the same time, but the manual makes no mention of 32-bit float being unavailable in this mode.  I know that 32-bit float cannot be output over USB, which I hope might be changed in a firmware update.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 12, 2020, 08:31:56 PM
yeah that shoulda said 'trim' not 'fader'

its been awhile but im still fairly certain based on block diagram and convos with zoom support techs, that the F6 has **no** analog gain adjustment, in either mode, its 'gain' is limited to the 'trim' feature which is entirely in the digital domain, which would (in my mind/use case) kind of make it a fader by definition. while "trim" is fixed in one mode, thats kind of a ruse as it technically doesnt exist (pre-ADC) in the other mode either. i believe that in that mode all its really doing is fixing the exponent in the 32-bit isos, i could see where this would be visually more challenging/counterintuitive to someone used to conventional methods, but in the end the result should be equivalent


Of course thats more of a use case/workflow issue, i personally only use ISOs and dont use downmix tracks or outputs. In either case, it would be the same though, as despite the isos being at their own individual level, you still have that ability to downmix them at individual levels


at the end of the day, the best performance is going to be achieved by matching input device to clip at the + 4dB (mic-in)/+24 dB (line-in) level of the device (Technically the same but in theory the former would be superior if you want to eliminate a pad from the signal chain)


as of now the unit cannot operate in usb mode while in 32-bit mode (or with sample rates over 48K). Back in January i requested zoom address this in future firmware if possible, got no reply on whether it would be considered or is technically possible
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Paul Isaacs on May 13, 2020, 08:50:18 AM
Hope you don't mind me gate-crashing this thread.... full disclosure - I work for Sound Devices.

I just wanted to clarify some facts about the Sound Devices MixPre-II 32-bit float implementation that have come up in this thread.
But first, I would like to say that both the F6 and MixPre-II are viable machines if you are looking to do 32-bit float recording. They implement said technology in different ways from not just an internal hardware/architectural point of view but also from the user experience point of view. That said ...

1) MixPre-II mic preamp can handle a maximum input mic signal before clipping of +14dBu, that is 10dB more than the F6.
2) MixPre-II HP output is driven by 32-bit float to analog conversion, thus there is no clipping either during playback or recording when signal exceeds 0dBFS. Be careful as the HP out can get exceedingly loud  with signal >0dBFS. Turn the HP vol down to protect your eardrums and reduce the likelihood of HP amp itself clipping.
3) At the time of me posting this, the MixPre-II is the only USB audio interface which can stream 32-bit float audio to a computer, both MAC (Catalina and higher) and Windows (10 and higher - you'll need the special ASIO driver on our website to enable it).
4) MixPre-II can simultaneously record 32-bit float and be a USB 96k/32-bit float multichannel interface to/from your computer.
5) MixPre-II can, during playback, remix/re-record 32-bit float recordings that exceed 0dBFS to below 0dBFS. You adjust the fader knobs, pans, mutes etc  on playback to achieve the new mix. The result is a 32-bit float 1ch or 2ch wav file.
6) The WaveAgent app does not currently support 32-bit float wav files. If you need to convert 32-bit float polyphonic wav files to monophonic, there are many apps out there that can do that.
7) 32-bit float wav import and 32-bit float USB audio streaming are quite well supported in DAWs now. Even the MAC Finder will play them back. This might be useful: https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-float-applications/

Paul, SD
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 13, 2020, 04:05:41 PM
Thanks for weighing in, Paul.  I wish we had a rep from Zoom here to answer some specific questions I have about their implementation - I think I'll be sending them an email soon. 

Regarding the input level: Clearly MixPre-II has a distinct advantage.  It's worth noting that the F6 allows phantom powering while the inputs are set to LINE, and in that mode they can handle an input level of +24 dBu.  I haven't tested it myself, but I imagine that a pad is being inserted in that mode because the impedance increases by 2 kOhm as well.

I need to test the HP output of the F6 further to see if the behavior there is different than what you are describing for the MixPre-II.  When I mentioned clipping before, I was thinking about the HP amp.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 13, 2020, 04:27:48 PM
first off, thanks, Paul for chiming in on the mixpre - good info as always

back to the zoom:

I decided to do some tests on the zoom, testing recording at 24bit vs 32bit FP at various sound levels, feeding a signal of a properly recorded audience recording from my DAC (Mytek brooklyn, claimed dynamic range of 130 dB)>balanced out>zoom set to mic-in, and adjusted level in 20 dB increments

I knew at extremely low levels i would run into the noise floor of the DAC, so i tried 2 different methods:

1. playing a signal from the computer to the DAC at constant level, and attenuating the DAC output via the stepped pot volume knob (the mytek reads exact dB of attenuation). For this test #1, I used Scott Schneider's most excellent 4015>portico pull from Dick's 9/1/19. it was a 16-bit version (which shouldnt make much difference as any noise would attenuate relative to peak signal)

2. making an file in soundforge that repeated the same 2 minute clip, which i normalized to 0dB (peak), -20 dB, -40 dB, -60 dB, and -80 dB. I then played this back with the mytek set to constant output level. The source material used in this case was an actual 96K 32bit float file i recorded at a concert. After doing the above normalizations, i took the -80dB segment and normalized it back to 0dB. As expected, the 32-bit float container handled the data appropriately and no noise was introduced. That doesnt mean that the -80 dB signal fed to the DAC and then to the zoom is free of noise, but whatever the DAC is putting out should hopefully be recorded by the zoom giving us some vision of the input noise floor and whether recording bitrate affects it. In fact i had to set the volume of the Mytek to -19dB to not overload the zoom in 24 bit mode, so i may have compromised the dynamic range there a bit,so i did test #3...

3. same as #2 above but with mytek 'wide open' at 0dB, i skipped the sample normalized to 0dB, and did -20,-40, -60, -80, and -100 dB samples (the latter of which should roughly correspond to the same ~ -80dB on the zoom as the lowest level sample of test #2)

another variable i encountered was, in mic-in setting, the minimum level the trim in 24-bit mode can be set to is +12dB. so the levels on the iso are 12dB higher. This difference seems to make no difference on signal/noise however

4. same as #2 and #3, except zoom was set to 'line in', and trim was set to -8dB (the minimum) in 24-bit mode. samples normalized to 0, -20,-40, -60, -80, and -100 dB were played back through the mytek set to 0dB volume. The Zoom was input was overloaded a few dB in this case on the 0dB sample. 'Exceeding input volume' was displayed when recording in 32-bit float

5. same as #4, except substituted Tascam DR100 mkiii for the zoom

6. same as #4 except substituted AD2K for the zoom

7. same as #4 except substituted V3 and AD2K for the zoom, and recorded the -60 dB sample with 60 dB of gain on the v3, and then the -80 dB sample with 70 dB of gain on the v3

----------------------------------------------
i normalized volume of all samples with peaks close to zero, then saved as mp3s.

for the case 1 files i went straight across and normalized all of the samples (0, -20, -40, -60, -80)
for case 4, AD2K, and V3 AD2K, i just did -60dB and -80 dB. both the -60 and -80dB samples have a few seconds of (what was) digital silence on the original recording, after each sample

comparing the V3 files to the ones with no gain, it was apparent i was running into the noise floor of the DAC.

That said, all the files sound darn near *identical* to me, and the noise floor in between samples is basically identical on both the 24 and 32 bit samples. the -60 dB samples are passable in both cases, the -80 dB samples are excessively noisy

on hot signals the zoom overloaded at the exact same points (even though with the trim, the 24 bit files were hotter. the 32 bit files had lower level but the same harsh clipping

Im not sure how valid the test was, due to the inherent noise floor from the DA. I think i need to do another test with the lowest sens mic i can manage. perhaps a DPA 4006A or 4007A with the 20 dB pad on. Which do you think would be more useful, the 9mV/Pa 4007 with the 24 dBA noise floor, or the 40 mV/Pa 4006 with a 15dBA noise floor. Both those specs are before the 20 dB pad.

what other gear would allow me to run a clean-ish low level signal in? maybe come off the mytek with a hotter signal and use some XLR inline pads?

in any case, it seems that for all *practical* purposes (i.e. guessing recording level within 40, or heck even as much as 60 dB), the 32 bit doesnt offer additional resolution

files for your listening displeasure. Even though they are mp3s it might be best to open them up in a wave editor so you can get a visual for the samples at which you are looking
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1taG_IOlFEnlXZsD0bmveKt6XWLYmefAa
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 13, 2020, 04:28:46 PM
It's worth noting that the F6 allows phantom powering while the inputs are set to LINE, and in that mode they can handle an input level of +24 dBu.  I haven't tested it myself, but I imagine that a pad is being inserted in that mode

confirmed by zoom support
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 13, 2020, 06:48:23 PM
Jerryfreak, Big thanks for the tests you've made and posted about above.  That further bolsters my previous conclusions about minimal advantage of switching from recording at 24/48 with regards to my scenarios, the value of practicality and diminishing returns.

If set to Reference Level, the track knobs are faders for the L/R downmix.  I never use the downmix, so I prefer setting to Rec Level, which actually changes the levels of the 6 ISO tracks being written to the card, post-ADC.  So even though the gain is fixed, you can set to Rec Level and crank the hell out of your channels so you have ridiculously high (or low) levels being written to the files. In Rec Level mode, the downmix faders are bypassed, but I still consider the knobs to be faders because their level adjustment is happening well after the input trim (again, which is fixed in this mode).  See pp. 194 and 198 in the manual which show how this works.

Thanks for explaining this, as it would apply to my currently preferred method of managing the relative balance between ISO channels when recording to an F8.  BTW, before going further, I fully recognize that what I am about to describe is not applicable to the working methods of most tapers.  Feel free to ignore..

As you are probably aware, I'm typically using F8 to record an 8 channel OMT multi-microphone array which consists of various spaced mics and a center Mid/Side pair, a configuration which does not vary appreciably at this point.  Partly because it helps with setting up rough playback mixes on recorder itself, I've found find it helpful to set recording levels so as to achieve an approximately correct relative balance of levels across closely-related microphone pairs and groups that make up the array.  This wouldn't matter (as much) if I were simply dumping the ISO files to the computer and doing all the mixing there.

As discussed in other threads, M/S playback decoding on the F8 is not as robustly implemented as I would prefer.  This will not affect most tapers except those making live 2ch mixdowns on the machine or using internal mixing for "ride-home listening".  If Mid and Side channels are recorded directly as ISO tracks rather than as an L/R pair, playback decoding to L/R can be switched on for the pair, however doing so eliminates the possibility of adjustment of M/S ratio and adjustment of level of those channels in the mix.  Instead, the ratio and level of the pair are determined by the input trim settings for those channels as recorded.  Other ISO channels which do not require M/S decoding can be panned and level adjusted, so I go about building a rough 2-ch mix in the recorder by starting with the 'defacto locked' M/S pair and add the other channel groups to that.  Not ideal but makes for a acceptable work around.  At the very least, this requires setting a close enough to correct relative ratio of Mid and Side trim levels when recording.  In reality, it helps to have most of the channels recorded close to the correct relative mix level in relation to each other, and not simply each pair balanced in relation to itself, or all channels set individually for optimal peak headroom.

The functionality you describe above would allow me to continue doing working in this way (if necessary) on a 32bitFP successor to the F8N, assuming such a recorder would operate similarly to F6. Hopefully M/S playback decoding in a successor Zoom recorder will be better implemented, avoiding this issue.

I'm mostly just thinking out loud here, clarifying for myself the potential path forward from F8 to perhaps SD MP10 mkII or its successor, a Zoom F8N successor, or some other yet to be realized 8 preamp recorder.  Although I prefer some of the Zoom features (8 standard XLR inputs, writing mono or stereo files, simpler navigation) the SD remix/re-record feature Paul mentions is very attractive for my unusual way of rough-mixing within the recorder away from a computer.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 13, 2020, 07:41:53 PM
It's worth noting that the F6 allows phantom powering while the inputs are set to LINE, and in that mode they can handle an input level of +24 dBu.  I haven't tested it myself, but I imagine that a pad is being inserted in that mode

confirmed by zoom support

Thanks.  So does that mean for practical purposes, the F6 can handle mic signals of +24 dBu as long as the input is set to Line?  Then the next question of course is what impact inserting this pad would have on sound quality.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 13, 2020, 08:50:54 PM
yes, it can do +24dB with phantom

per my tests it definitely raises noise floor.

I personally wouldnt expect to go over +4dBU with mics and would avoid using it, but we have discussed some very sensitive mics in this thread so YMMV

clipping the input sounds very bad... I haven't investigated use of limiter or where it is in block diagram, but perhaps mic-in+limiter could be preferable to line-in, as it would affect *some* sample data as opposed to raising noise floor at all times
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 14, 2020, 12:46:28 PM
^ This was the basis of my decision to stick with the F8 rather than move to F8N.  The primary question was to continue using F8 with the advanced limiter switched on for safety, or switch to F8N because it can provide phantom power in line-input mode.  I rarely engaged limiters on any of my previous recorders and prefer not to use them when possible, but my tests with F8's advance limiter convinced me that in my recording scenarios its use was acceptably transparent. However, what I've not tested nor determined clearly is if switching on advanced limiter increases noise-floor by the same amount as switching from mic to line-input.  I suspect it does, a consequence of both modes using the same input pad prior to ADC.  If that is indeed the case, my better choice would be line-in to F8N, achieving the same noise-floor without any need to engage limiting.

My apologies for my F8 related posts in this F6 thread. I consider them relevant because with the exception of channel count and absence of 32bitFP recording mode, F8N is essentially the same as F6 in these ways.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: noahbickart on May 14, 2020, 02:11:16 PM
What am I not understanding?

With a 24bit recorder, I have to think about setting levels (a little bit.) If I set them too high (say +25db for a FOB show), I might get overs.

With a 32bit recorder, I don't have this issue. I don't even need to unzip my bag and can start and stop the recording with the app? 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 14, 2020, 03:43:29 PM
That's the basic gist of the differences with regards to making a taper recording.  I was unclear WRT understanding all differences between the two after the recording has been made, which is a different aspect yet was cleared up somewhat by voltronic and jerryfreak.

Concerning my somewhat OT aside above about the manipulation of signal level prior to writing the file as a way of achieving a closer relative level balance between channels, that is really just a practical "nice to have" thing rather than a necessity.  Ignoring that, I typically use the 24bit F8 in the same way that you describe use of a 32bit recorder.  I just turn it on and press record.. to the extent that I would have used the app to do exactly as you mention with a zipped bag last fall when I considered putting the entire rig up in the rafters prior to a show, except I had no Apple device to host the Zoom remote app.

Those things represent the important practical take-aways for me.  The other stuff is more arcane, confirming noisefloor performance and understanding how everything is actually working.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 14, 2020, 04:04:30 PM
What am I not understanding?

With a 24bit recorder, I have to think about setting levels (a little bit.) If I set them too high (say +25db for a FOB show), I might get overs.

With a 32bit recorder, I don't have this issue. I don't even need to unzip my bag and can start and stop the recording with the app?
it would be more like recording at +0dB in the former case to the same end result. assuming both recorders are equally remote capable

(as an aside, zoom remote app blows the sound devices out of the water in functionality btw. controls nearly every aspect of the recorder.)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 14, 2020, 07:01:19 PM
What am I not understanding?

With a 24bit recorder, I have to think about setting levels (a little bit.) If I set them too high (say +25db for a FOB show), I might get overs.

With a 32bit recorder, I don't have this issue. I don't even need to unzip my bag and can start and stop the recording with the app?
it would be more like recording at +0dB in the former case to the same end result. assuming both recorders are equally remote capable

(as an aside, zoom remote app blows the sound devices out of the water in functionality btw. controls nearly every aspect of the recorder.)

It sure would be nice to have an Android version.  I would use it for all of the rehearsals and concerts I record where I am on stage performing, saving a lot of file size.  As it is now, I start recording 30-45 min before concert time because that's usually the last chance I have to get at my rig.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 14, 2020, 11:22:38 PM
fortunately refurbed iphone SEs can be had for $60 or so. i paid more than half of that just for the bluetooth dongle for my zoom
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 08:55:14 AM
ok i did some low level tests with actual microphones

record rig:
channel 1 (low sens mic) DPA 4018VL+MMP-A body with 20 dB pad engaged on mic body
channel 2 (high sens mic) DPA 4006 (old style w/ integrated capsule)
into zoom F6 on a stand

playback rig:
sony A10> full volume > sennheiser HD600 around my neck standing about 30" from mics
source material: "Deep Into the Night" by Hiromi Uehara's Sonicbloom
my best guess on my SPL calibrator is the volume of the music at the mics was peaking at about 60-65 dB (like absolute dB volume in the air, not dBU levels on recorder)

'trim' was set to +12 dB in 24 bit case, and of course is disabled in 32 bit case

24 bit data was volume adjusted by L +103dB   R +43dB
32 bit data was volume adjusted by L +85dB     R +67dB

i have no idea why the relative channel levels were so different between the two tests. maybe i messed with the trim on one of them. in any case they are both *very* low level tests with the same source material volume

stats on wavs before volume adjustment
24 bit test
                                                    Left Channel           Right Channel       
Minimum sample value (dB)                           -103.205               -43.151             
Maximum sample value (dB)                           -103.510               -40.875             
RMS level (dB)                                      -124.494               -65.758             

32 bit
                                                    Left Channel           Right Channel       
Minimum sample value (dB)                           -83.561                -65.768                     
Maximum sample value (dB)                           -83.768                -65.122             
RMS level (dB)                                      -106.416               -91.226             

added to the shared folder linked above as 'atest.mp3' and 'btest.mp3'
those are the files with different mics on each channel (warning: the low sens mic on the left channel is pretty noisy on both samples

i made additional files by swapping the 4006 to both channels, so each of 'ctest.mp3' and 'dtest.mp3' are dual mono recordings of the 4006 (one is 24 bit, one is 32 bit)

can you guess which is which?

I only have one 4006 but if theres interest maybe ill repeat the test with a pair of 2006, 4011, or 4007 without mic pads and double check the trim next time



Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 15, 2020, 09:45:59 AM
Jerry,

Thanks for doing these tests.  I am listening with the L/R tracks split and soloing to hear one mic at a time.  I ignored the 4018 tracks with their much higher noise, and focused on the 4006 tracks.  I certainly cannot tell which are the 24-bit and which are 32-bit FP.  The only conclusion I can draw is that at levels this low, you are amplifying the mic self-noise and preamp noise so dramatically that any benefits of 32-bit FP disappear.

I would suggest repeating the test but recording the output of speakers rather than headphones, and using a more realistic "too low" level.  Maybe set it so the input levels on the F6 are peaking at -40 dB.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 09:59:40 AM
i was concerned that speakers played at very low volume might have a lower S/N than open cans played at full volume, but i can try miking a single BM5A with the 4006. it’s the quietest mic i’ve got, i believe

that room i did the test in had NOTHING plugged in i was trying to get background noise as low as possible. i wanted to test outside but alas it was raining. with tinnitus i’m not the best judge of quiet spaces


Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 15, 2020, 10:36:14 AM
Disclaimer- I'm not listening thru a high resolution playback chain, simply using Samsung phone in-ears straight out of computer. dtest sounds brighter to me than ctest, although relative S/N ratios seems about the same WRT both noise spectrum and signal.  Note stomach or dog growl at 2:00 in atest!


I also wish for an Android version of Zoom remote app.  Have considered picking up the iphone SE just to run this app, but have not been recording enough, especially in situations where it would really be advantageous rather than simply fun.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on May 15, 2020, 01:02:32 PM
'trim' was set to +12 dB in 24 bit case, and of course is disabled in 32 bit case

Per the specs, minimum gain is 12 dB; is this minimum gain or minimum gain plus 12 dB?

I have to admit the stats are a little perplexing to me. I guess the differences are due to the way gain is applied in 32-bit mode? It would be interesting to see what levels in 24-bit yield the same output levels for both 24-bit and 32-bit for various SPLs.

any benefits of 32-bit FP disappear.

What benefits are those, other than not needing to set levels?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 15, 2020, 03:20:59 PM
any benefits of 32-bit FP disappear.

What benefits are those, other than not needing to set levels?

You say that like it's insignificant.  It might not be a big thing for you in your workflow, but for someone like me it is huge.  I admit that my recording situation may be unusual compared to most on this board, but this format has been very helpful for me.

Just to be clear: I'm not speaking about 32-bit FP generically, but specifically the way it is implemented in these new recorders with multiple auto-ranging ADCs.  The combination of the two things is what allows you to have the larger dynamic range, and be able to recover recordings that have levels way over or under without adding significant noise.  That room for error certainly has limits between analog noise floor and input stage overload, but is still way bigger than you would have otherwise. 

Secondary benefits to this are no need for safety tracks, saving storage and battery, and limiters (which are almost always audible when they engage.  Analog limiters sound much less offensive than digital, but are more expensive to implement.  If you consider the input stage overload as your upper limit with a multi-ADC 32-bit FP implementation, a limiter is not going to help you there anyway; you'd need a pad.

I'm not parroting some marketing copy; I'm telling you what my personal experience has been.

These threads are probably a better place to debate the usefulness of the format itself.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192112.0 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192112.0)
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192100.0 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192100.0)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 03:53:15 PM
'trim' was set to +12 dB in 24 bit case, and of course is disabled in 32 bit case

Per the specs, minimum gain is 12 dB; is this minimum gain or minimum gain plus 12 dB?

again it doesn’t have an analog gain stage, that’s all post-sdc so it incorporates any noise previously accumulated. at some point i’ll do a high-gain test of v3 vs stock input
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on May 15, 2020, 05:17:34 PM
Well, it most certainly has an analog input stage, just not one that features user adjustable trim of gain.  Could be unity gain, or whatever is needed to provide the appropriate signal level to the ADC, at minimum it acts as a buffer.  I suspect the padding which happens when line-input and/or the advance limiter is in use is implemented via a gain adjustment of that input stage.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on May 15, 2020, 05:28:32 PM
You say that like it's insignificant.  It might not be a big thing for you in your workflow, but for someone like me it is huge.  I admit that my recording situation may be unusual compared to most on this board, but this format has been very helpful for me.

No, not at all. If you need it you need it. I was just checking to see if there was some other benefit of which I was unaware. Apparently not.

As for limiters, if you set the levels conservatively (based on mic specifications and input sensitivity) on one of these high dynamic range recorders, if you do hit the limiter, it will generally only be on brief, sporadic spikes and will be totally inaudible. At least that's the case with the MixPres.

'trim' was set to +12 dB in 24 bit case, and of course is disabled in 32 bit case

Per the specs, minimum gain is 12 dB; is this minimum gain or minimum gain plus 12 dB?

again it doesn’t have an analog gain stage, that’s all post-sdc so it incorporates any noise previously accumulated. at some point i’ll do a high-gain test of v3 vs stock input

So in 24-bit mode (as per the quote of your post), there is still no trim? That doesn't really square with what I have read about this recorder. I thought the "no trim" only applied to 32-bit.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 06:20:06 PM
well im just basing it on block diagram, it seems that there isnt true analog gain. just one fixed level set to be the best match to input into the ADC(s). and the pad when needed. (I'll do some more detailed measurements with the pad on and off this evening)

it seems that at the end of the day that there is a fixed range that an input stage can have

at high levels, signal voltage goes up pretty dramatically
0dBU= 0.77V
+4 = 1.23V
+6 = 1.54V
+12 = 3.08V
+24 = 15.5V
+30 = 24V

which is probably why we dont see gear that can take signals much hotter than that. I may be getting out over my skis on circuit knowledge but i would imagine hot signals like that would demand completely different design in regard to components that are rated for higher voltage, as well as probably increased spacing of traces, and other issues.

again im just speculating but i doubt most (any?) ADC chips are really able to take double-digit voltage inputs, so at some point we are 'funneling' our signal down to fit the ADCs parameters

likewise, taking +4dB (1.23V) as our hypothetical upper limit, if we are assuming a max of 130 dB dynamic range, -126dBU would correspond to 3.88 x 10-7!
So at some point just via physics we run into inevitable circuit noise

Recall that conventional recording wisdom is to capture the range of sound in a room with the appropriate microphone and use a gain stage to match that range to an ADC ore recording media

a studio may be 20dB background noise level. a quiet concert hall with respectful crowd probably 40dB. rock concert? maybe 60ish dB with all the people

in each case we may hit 70dB of dynamic range (assuming the studio and concert halls will be in a listenable mid 90s, and an ear-splitting rock concert in the 120s

in the zooms case, when the EIN of the analog input approaches 130dB, and a 24-bit word can handle 144 dB of range (and ideally matched on the top end), youre gonna run into the noise floor of the input first in almost every case.

Now that is analog noise and just because its higher than the quantization noise of the LSB in the 24bit word....doesnt mean that it will completely mask the quantization noise. It seems from the few people (myself included) who have listened, that the 24 bit and 32-bit samples sound"different", though nobody can really peg a "better"

remember that at the end of the day, a 32-bit float still only has a 24-bit mantissa in which to express the data, and the exponent is a sliding scale of sorts.

I'm not convinced the 768dB dynamic range offered by the 32bit float container really offers substantial advantage over the 144 dB of a 24-bit binary signal for capturing real world dynamic range of sounds, that appears to be well under 100dB range in all cases. Thats what we are attempting to determine. The 4006 is an extremely quiet mic, 15 dBA self noise with a maximum SPL of 143.

The zoom has a stated noise of "−127 dBu or less (A-weighted, +75 dB input gain". which is pretty low, at that high gain level. But what does it mean? does that mean that we can amplify a signal contianing 120dB of data 75dB and the full dynamic range is preserved? or that when amplified 75 dB we have a 127 dB container to represent that, and what noise did it bring along with it? the former scenario would assume the analog input circuit has a full dynamic range of 190+ dB which i dont think is achievable



Well, it most certainly has an analog input stage, just not one that features user adjustable trim of gain.  Could be unity gain, or whatever is needed to provide the appropriate signal level to the ADC, at minimum it acts as a buffer.  I suspect the padding which happens when line-input and/or the advance limiter is in use is implemented via a gain adjustment of that input stage.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 06:35:58 PM
So in 24-bit mode (as per the quote of your post), there is still no trim? That doesn't really square with what I have read about this recorder. I thought the "no trim" only applied to 32-bit.

there is a trim function (to alter signal level written to file), but its done in DSP. According to the block diagram the analog inputs feed right into the ADC.see block diagram on page 197

https://www.zoom-na.com/sites/default/files/products/downloads/pdfs/E_F6_3.pdf

i assume the 'ADC' in that block diagram is a black box containing their multiple ADCs and assumedly some sort of analysis/autoranging

it is unclear where the 20dB pad for line-in operates

heres some info from zoom support, somewhat cryptical to me in parts
---
zoom:

The Trim on the F6 acts as a digital stage. The dual ADC is used when recording in 32 bit float and when recording in 24 bit.

The Trim allows you to set the level that will be recorded to the 24 bit file. This makes it so that if the signal clips in 24 bit mode, it is due to the file clipping from the limitations of the 24 bit integer format, not from clipping at the converter.

Since linear formats cannot accommodate the wide dynamic range of the dual ADC on the F6, a software Trim is necessary to set the level of the recorded file.

-----

me:
so in other words, there is no analog gain or attenuation stage whatsoever before the ADC

and thus the best noise performance in all cases would be to feed it a signal as close as possible to its maximum +4dBU input clipping level?

----
zoom:
Essentially, yes, any louder signals will always have better noise performance, as long as at least one of the converters is not clipped.

Keep in mind that the F6 still has a very low noise floor at essentially all signal levels. Since the device is constantly switching converters depending on the input level, low level signals are always recording with the best noise level possible on the device, which is comparable to a typical 24 bit recorder/preamp operating at the most optimal setting possible (which is often difficult to predict).
-----


so from a design perspective, there technically should be a substantial advantage, its surprising we cant measure a dynamic range that is significantly broader in 32-bit float mode vs 24-bit.

does zoom have a patent we can unearth, similar to what was found for sound devices' implementation?


Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on May 15, 2020, 06:40:33 PM
^ That's very interesting. Thanks for posting your communication with Zoom! I am really surprised that there isn't any analog gain stage even in 24-bit. I guess, in essence, 24-bit mode is just handicapped 32-bit...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 07:05:21 PM
^ That's very interesting. Thanks for posting your communication with Zoom! I am really surprised that there isn't any analog gain stage even in 24-bit. I guess, in essence, 24-bit mode is just handicapped 32-bit...

well i havent opened mine up, but TBH, between the battery sled, display/controls, and volume required for the XLR inputs, theres not much room left. Its probably a single board design on the size of say an average handheld

heres the teardown for the mixpre3. i cant find the FCC id for my zoom but i imagine there is something similar
https://fccid.io/2AKLX-739M3/Internal-Photos/Internal-Photos-3297643

i would guess the board real estate is half the size of the mixpre and not a lot of room for analog circuitry
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 15, 2020, 07:10:46 PM
Huh.  I never really compared the block diagrams of the fixed and float point modes until now.  It sure looks like there is no analog gain control; it's all post-ADC digital level control no matter what mode you are in.  The difference is where it happens:

In fixed point and dual modes, the level control is before the HPF, limiter and phase controls.

In float point mode with the trim pot setting as REC LEVEL, the level control is after all of those things (except the limiter which is disabled).

In float point mode with the trim pot setting as REFERENCE LEVEL, you have no control at all over the levels being written to the ISO tracks.  You only have fader controls for the L/R downmix.


I wonder how many other recorders out there don't really have an analog gain stage.  If Paul is about, I'm sure he will tell us how that works on the MixPre-II.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2020, 07:28:04 PM
just because its not adjustable, doesnt necessarily mean it doesnt have at least a basic op-amp stage. most handhelds have at least a basic gain circuit. i imagine at a certain level (size, cost, amount of gain, the particular sdc you are feeding), that digital gain can actually be superior to an analog circuit

when i tore open my d:vice and sent pictures to doug he said:
They use a real preamp chip with THD+N down @ -136dB. I use that one in some of my MODs. That should sound close to the AD2K.


which seems like a bold call, but im compelled to share this other info we discussed, emphasis mine

I agree, anything over 100dB SN and dynamic range is more than adequate for an A/D chip. What's far more critical is the analog circuity supporting it. A lot of real estate was dedicated to presenting the ADC with as perfect a signal as possible in the AD2K. It's only in the last 2 years that single op amp stage analog circuity could come close. Even so, when I hear what can be done with multiple stages in state of the art converters, I realize that while today's single stage op amp circuits can do what yesterday's state of the art multistage circuits could do, they don't do state of the art sound. If you  get a chance, check out a Cary Audio or EMMLabs DAC. You may realize just how good your recordings are.


so point being, weve come a long way in both analog and digital chips.... the d:vice manages 114 dB of dynamic range and that board is the size of a half dollar.

Huh.  I never really compared the block diagrams of the fixed and float point modes until now.  It sure looks like there is no analog gain control; it's all post-ADC digital level control no matter what mode you are in.  The difference is where it happens:

In fixed point and dual modes, the level control is before the HPF, limiter and phase controls.

In float point mode with the trim pot setting as REC LEVEL, the level control is after all of those things (except the limiter which is disabled).

In float point mode with the trim pot setting as REFERENCE LEVEL, you have no control at all over the levels being written to the ISO tracks.  You only have fader controls for the L/R downmix.


I wonder how many other recorders out there don't really have an analog gain stage.  If Paul is about, I'm sure he will tell us how that works on the MixPre-II.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 17, 2020, 06:28:52 PM
more recordings coming soon... birds were going off at sunrise, i wish i woulda got em as its raining again. I wish i had a basic LDC like a rode NT1, would buy me 10 dB lower noise over any of the SDCs i have. anybody want to loan one?
Title: !
Post by: carpa on May 21, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
I'm following this interesting thread, trying to understand....I can't get all of what's discussed here due to my lack of knowledge, so there are some point/questions I'd like to make clear, stated that - if I'm right - there is no analog setting of the level possible before the ADC. What I'm trying to figure out is how owners' behavior will change while using this Zoom vs. "traditional" stuff. Sorry for being so "basic" but I really can't get to the point; for most of you this is probably dumb questions but it may help someone like me to understand.

1) When recording  we have some dynamic expectations. A classical guitar is very different from a drum set so we get prepared to it also trying to match the settings ( If I place the mic at the mouth of a trombone I'll not crank all the gain up!).  We still may end up with a soft and conservative level to be raised in post (risk of noise floor increase), with a clipped or badly limited recording, or - still possible - with a good setting not needing further treatment level-wise.   F6 "doesn't know" wether I'll be whispering at distance or I'll be exploding a bomb close to it; so, no clipping risk but a recording which will in every case need to be adjusted to be usable?   
Some YouTube videos I've seen ( i.e. Curtis Judd) show a treatment in post of a very low signal- then raised 40 or 50 dbs- vs. another ultra-clipped signal - then lowered without consequences. How's it possible? The idea of fixed gain suggests me to think about an average level decided by the recorder itself, probably all a bit too hot to a bit to low...I don't understand ho he came to have such low and such clipped signal from the same mic and recording situation.

2) According to the previous point, in an average scenario, i.e. a piano and clarinet or violin with a stereo mic set placed - let's say - from 1 to 2 mt. from the players - what the recording would be right out of the box? Just listening on headphones what's been recorded, how far will it sound from a "traditional" recording?

3) A slightly different aspect which has been treated in this thread concerns the risk of clipping the input stage with very hot signals, not being possible to trim he gain before ( even 24 bit mode, if I understand, acts the same way). In this scenario only the mic sensitivity will rule, so it would just be necessary to exclude the use of microphones according to their specs or it is more complicated than that?

Thank you for your help


Title: Re: !
Post by: Gutbucket on May 21, 2020, 10:53:11 AM
The differences in working procedure are basically this:

1) Choose the appropriate microphone(s) and place/arrange them like you otherwise would (this part does not change).

2) Record. If using 16 or 24 bit modes you adjust trim as usual.  If using 32bitFP mode you do not need to adjust input trim (this is different).

3) Afterward.. If you recorded using 16 or 24bit modes you may wish to re-adjust levels somewhat, but they will likely be close to correct and usable "as is" due to you having manually set input trim prior to recording.  Using 32bitFP mode you will need to re-adjust levels to get appropriate output because you did not manually set input trim prior to recording (this is different).

4) In addition to 3, some post-recording procedures involving handling the 32bitFP file format will be different.

That's essentially it.

How's it possible?

That's what our extended discussion has partly been about, both here in this thread, and more specifically in the other thread intended for more in depth exploration-
32Bit Float recording - The Technical view (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=192100.msg2312321#msg231232). Your post is a good example of why we should try to keep the technical discussion in that thread, so that F6 operation information in this one remains clear.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 24, 2020, 09:10:49 AM
ok more tests
ch1 (L): 4011A
ch3 (R): CMC64

Source material: Time Difference by Hiromi's Sonicbloom, SACD
playback: Benchmark DAC2 > balanced out > single Dynaudio BM5A monitor at low volume

source material volume was the same for all tests. Volume level (SPL) estimated at 64-70 dB peak, 44-50dB RMS*

room noise estimated at less than 41-47 dB peak, 28-34 dB RMS*. it was difficult to tell if i was running into the noise floor of the recorder though

I also measured room noise at 31 dBA with iphone app. Room was quieter than my tinnitus. Room is in quietest corner of house, nothing electrical in the room except for the dynaudio monitor,  the system feeding it via xlr was 2 rooms away.

on one sample (car_noise.flac) you can hear a vehicle accelerating through its gears all by its lonesome at 2AM. Thats through a closed window on a highway about a 1/3 mile away. Long story short, you would be hard pressed to be recording any source this quiet outside of nature settings

recorder was mounted right on top of stand, mics sticking right out the side, about 16" from the monitor

*the reason you see a 6dB range in estimated SPL is surprisingly the SPL calibrator i used read 6dB different on the schoeps and DPA caps (likely because of capsule back venting design, it is not super accurate for testing absolute measurements on different styles of directional mics, as i believe gutbucket pointed out to me along time ago. What was odd though, despite the mics reading so differently with the calibrator, they were actually equally sensitive within about 1 dB on all the tests. so the '94 dB levels' you see referenced in each test were the levels on the recorded tracks when the calibrator was used on each mic. likewise the calculated 'max SPL at FSD' is a range guessed from this. in other words, at those particular recording settings, you would need to hit that SPL before you clip the ADC. Of course some of the numbers are ridiculously high and the analog input would be beyond overloaded at 180-200+ SPL(!). id have to do some math to figure out what the actual clipping SPL numbers would be with each mic (i.e. what SPL causes +4dB/+24dB signal into the input). maybe i can try the calibrator with an omni and report back on that

anyway, on with the show. I was trying to test the following variables with the zoom
low vs high recording level where applicable
24bit vs 32 bit files
mic vs line in

i found it educational, i hope you do as well

test 1:
24 bit
mic-in
trim=+12dB (the minimum)
fader =-48dB  (the minimum)
94dB levels = -44dB, -36 dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 138dB, 130dB
peak program level = -74dB
RMS program level = -94dB
file was normalized approximately +73dB

test 2:
24 bit
line-in
trim=-8dB (the minimum)
fader =-48dB  (the minimum)
94dB levels = -64dB, -56 dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 158dB, 150dB
peak program level = -94 dB
RMS program level = -114dB
normalized approximately +93dB

test 3:
32 bit float
line-in
trim= -48dB (the minimum)
94dB levels = -124dB, -117 dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 218dB, 211dB
peak program level = -154 dB
RMS program level = -173dB
normalized approximately +153dB


test 4:
32 bit float
mic-in
trim= -48dB (the minimum)
94dB levels = -104dB, -97 dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 198dB, 191dB
peak program level =-134dB
RMS program level = -154dB
normalized approximately +132dB

test 5:
24 bit
mic-in
trim=+12dB (the minimum)
fader =+24dB  (the maximum)
94dB levels = -44dB, -36 dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 138dB, 130 dB
peak program level = -74dB
RMS program level = -94dB
normalized approximately +73dB

test 6:
24 bit
mic-in
trim=+75dB (the maximum)
fader =-48dB  (the minimum)
94dB levels = (over FSD)
corresponding SPL at FSD: 80-85dB est.
peak program level = -11dB
RMS program level = -31dB
normalized approximately 10-11 dB

test 7:
tascam DR100mkiii
mic in
pad off
gain set to minimum (+20dB)
94dB levels = -22dB, -16dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 116dB, 110dB
peak program level = -51dB
RMS program level = -70dB
normalized approximately 50dB


test 8:
tascam DR100mkiii
mic in
pad off
gain maximum (+56dB)
94dB levels = (over FSD)
corresponding SPL at FSD: est. 75-80 dB
peak program level = -15dB
RMS program level = -34 dB
normalized approximately 14dB

test 9:
tascam DR100mkiii
mic in
pad on
gain set to maximum (+31.5dB)
94dB levels = -10dB, -4dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 104dB, 98dB
peak program level = -40dB
RMS program level = -58dB
normalized approximately 38dB

test 10:
tascam DR100mkiii
mic in
pad on
gain set to minimum (0)
94dB levels = -41dB, -34dB
corresponding SPL at FSD: 135 dB, 129dB
peak program level = -71dB
RMS program level = -90dB
normalized approximately 70dB

test 11
V3 with 30 dB of gain
peak program level = -66dB
RMS program level = -85dB
est. SPL at FSD: 125-130dB
normalized approximately 65dB in post


test 12
V3 with 70 dB of gain
peak program level = -27dB
RMS program level = -46dB
est. SPL at FSD: 85-90dB
normalized approximately 26dB in post

here is a folder with all six of the zoom tests and what i thought were the best test each from the Tascam and the V3. they are all cut to within a second of each other on start point so you can AB if you wish. imo its kinda all about the noise vs program material in the first few seconds, you'll be able to discard a few right off the bat. Then you can listen more critically to the ones which remain

https://drive.google.com/open?id=13nG-Z4kluspAzYrdrkO36glBGDrOAiS7

 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on May 25, 2020, 03:17:47 AM
Given that part of this discussion is related to the mic input’s capability with the risk of overload due to a hot signal, it is interesting to observe that f6 and f4 don’t share the same specs. They both feature mic mode and line in mode ( padded) but while in mic mode f6 can hold +4 dB, f4 accepts up to 14db ( from the user’s manual). Seems a bit strange given that the automatic gain setting in 32 bit mode would seem to get the best benefit from a safer spec.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 25, 2020, 03:34:44 AM
they spec the +14dB with limiter *on* , in both F4 and F8. i wonder if thats the difference?

manual says "The F uses a newly-designed limiter. This limiter has 10dB of
headroom, preventing distortion and allowing it to keep signals
below the set threshold even more than ordinary limiters."

that 10 dB cant merely be a coincidence....

i might try to feed the F6 a +14dB signal with a limiter and see if it takes it in both 24 and 32-bit mode

F8n also specifies +14dB input,but looking at the F8n manual, the limiter is more similar to the F6 (menu is identical), vs the F4, which doesnt have the "advanced" mode
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 29, 2020, 12:48:18 AM
confirmed by zoom support:

Zoom: the F6 preamps were re-designed compared to the F8/F8n. The F8 and F8n have the same preamps.  (on the F6) The preamp gain is analog, but the Trim on the F6 acts as a digital stage.

me: so is the analog preamp stage fixed gain? and then digitally attenuated by the trim?

Zoom:Yes, the analog stage is fixed. Digital attenuation is adjusted by the trim.

we had other discussion about 24-bit vs 32-bit, im going to hold off on posting that until theres some thoughts on the sound samples i posted, so as not to color the opinions

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on May 29, 2020, 03:21:38 AM
@jerryfreak  So, according to Zoom's staff answer, the  preamp design between F4 and F6 is different, probably slightly; still could be possible that the difference in mic input's spec ( +4 db max for F6 and +14 for F4/8) comes from the design more than referring ton on/off pad?   I would make not much sense, though, to have less flexibility on a fixed gain than on a variable one.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 29, 2020, 04:38:17 AM
@jerryfreak  So, according to Zoom's staff answer, the  preamp design between F4 and F6 is different, probably slightly; still could be possible that the difference in mic input's spec ( +4 db max for F6 and +14 for F4/8) comes from the design more than referring ton on/off pad?   I would make not much sense, though, to have less flexibility on a fixed gain than on a variable one.

both designs have pads. i'm not sure i really understand your question, in any case I dont think I know enough about the gain stages of either unit to answer it.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 29, 2020, 07:47:07 AM
@jerryfreak  So, according to Zoom's staff answer, the  preamp design between F4 and F6 is different, probably slightly; still could be possible that the difference in mic input's spec ( +4 db max for F6 and +14 for F4/8) comes from the design more than referring ton on/off pad?   I would make not much sense, though, to have less flexibility on a fixed gain than on a variable one.

both designs have pads. i'm not sure i really understand your question, in any case I dont think I know enough about the gain stages of either unit to answer it.

The max input on the F6 set to LINE is +14 dB, so there's your 10 dB pad.  On the F6, you can use LINE+PHANTOM so if you have a mega-hot signal from your mics coming in, you can use that setting.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 29, 2020, 07:50:30 AM

The max input on the F6 set to LINE is +14 dB, so there's your 10 dB pad.  On the F6, you can use LINE+PHANTOM so if you have a mega-hot signal from your mics coming in, you can use that setting.

its +4/+24 on the F6 when the 20 dB pad is engaged
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on May 29, 2020, 08:56:54 AM

The max input on the F6 set to LINE is +14 dB, so there's your 10 dB pad.  On the F6, you can use LINE+PHANTOM so if you have a mega-hot signal from your mics coming in, you can use that setting.

its +4/+24 on the F6 when the 20 dB pad is engaged

That's what I meant; it seems that F4, both with or without pad, can accept a hotter signal
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 29, 2020, 09:48:36 AM
with a limiter

its not apples to apples.....
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 29, 2020, 03:46:11 PM

The max input on the F6 set to LINE is +14 dB, so there's your 10 dB pad.  On the F6, you can use LINE+PHANTOM so if you have a mega-hot signal from your mics coming in, you can use that setting.

its +4/+24 on the F6 when the 20 dB pad is engaged

Whoops sorry I had my specs mixed up with SD MixPre-II.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 03, 2020, 08:40:22 AM
no takers on the noise floor tests, huh?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 03, 2020, 06:35:20 PM
I gave a listen out of curiosity when you posted the link. My overall take away as recall: a couple are obviously noisier (well-duh) 

Going back now and listening again to comment. Disclaimer- I'm listening via web-preview feature, using cheap Samsung earphones, but at least without cotton in my ears.

Impressions:
1) Too many files to expect folks to really listen and compare closely I think.  Not sure of the blind test value because of that, maybe better to know which is which while listening even with the bias that imposes.
2) d and e are really noisy.
3) The noise spectrum differs very slightly but is pretty close to the same level for all other samples.  Could live with any of those and put any concerns about minutia to rest.
3a) .. but not sure that in real world use even noisy d and e would represent a problem.
4) Right channel signal is hotter (equating to lower noise after equal level adjustment of signal) but is less clean. I prefer the Left channel signal.

No analysis done other than listening.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 03, 2020, 07:27:33 PM

4) Right channel signal is hotter (equating to lower noise after equal level adjustment of signal) but is less clean. I prefer the Left channel signal.
.

yes they were different mics (one dpa and one schoeps). the fact that you can hear differences in noise character between them indicates the mic self noise is at least as apparent as the input noise floor.

as for the two noisier samples...... that was with the line-in setting, as i mentioned before using line-in indeed raises the noise floor considerably, there is no free lunch when it comes to dynamic range.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 03, 2020, 09:23:31 PM
some questions zoom has answered for me in last week or so

Quote from: zoom
The dual ADC is used when recording in 32 bit float and when recording in 24 bit. The Trim allows you to set the level that will be recorded to the 24 bit file. This makes it so that if the signal clips in 24 bit mode, it is due to the file clipping from the limitations of the 24 bit integer format, not from clipping at the converter. Since linear formats cannot accommodate the wide dynamic range of the dual ADC on the F6, a software Trim is necessary to set the level of the recorded file.

Quote from: me
in terms of what you wrote i'm not sure i understand the difference between clipping because of integer file format vs clipping the converter. wouldn't both fundamentally describe going over FSD (unless you're talking about overloading the analog front end of the converter)

Quote from: zoom
Yes, we are referring to overloading the analog front end.

Quote from: me
i've done some tests recording relatively quiet source material , both line in, and mic in, and i really can't hear a difference in the integer vs float files when normalized. it seems like the EIN is the limiting factor.

Quote from: zoom
As you point out here, the theoretical implications of 32-bit float are limited by hardware. With a quiet signal, I wouldn't expect you to hear a difference in the integer vs float files.

Quote from: me
considering that in either integer or float the max input level is +4dbu, and the EIN is fixed, i don't quite understand how the float files increase dynamic range between these two endpoints. i understand how the two ADCs can have a wider range of 200 db or more, but i still can't wrap my head around how that increases the 120ish db dynamic range of the input

Quote from: zoom
The preamp and ADC are going to act the same whether in float or integer. Floating point allows the final recorded file to have an extended dynamic range. So if recording in integer, the bit depth itself will limit the dynamic range meaning that somewhere in the full dynamic range of the preamps and ADC's it will have to cut it, meaning there is a ceiling and a floor which will either clip or not record. When recording float files, you can capture the entire dynamic range possible.


Quote from: me
one more question: since the trim is acting as an attenuator, when recording in 24-bit mode would the best performance be achieved with trim set to 0dB?

Quote from: zoom
Not necessarily. Because both AD converters are working all the time, where the trim is set doesn't have as much effect on the performance as what the AD converters decide to do 

Quote from: me
...or set to its maximum? would the latter be adding additional digital gain?. What trim setting would be considered 'unity gain' in 24 bit? 0dB isnt available as a setting in mic-in, of course

Quote from: zoom
The trim adjustment is really just setting where within the available dynamic range you want to capture. The usual rules of setting gain in 24-bit should be followed because you still want to capture loud enough signal that it is high quality.

Quote from: me
im assuming in 32 bit float, (where the trim is disabled), that the input range is already optimally matched to the input of the ADC

Quote from: zoom
Correct
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 04, 2020, 01:34:01 AM
so that said, apart from some (measurable but perhaps not audible) bit utility on the bottom end, the only practical advantage 32 bit offers is in regard to setting levels too high, which is easily remedied by reducing recording level in 24-bit mode

if you overload the input (same levels in either case), the results will be the same

functionally speaking, when in 32-bit mode the zoom will at least give you the 'exceeding input level' warning which it doesnt give in 24-bit mode
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on June 04, 2020, 03:32:13 AM
@Jerryfreak, thanks for all the work you've done! From what's been answered by Zoom  I get that the digital trim also in 24 can only be adjusted after the analog input stage.
It seems, the,  that the padded line-in input may produce a bit more noise as a result;  I still wonder if in real world use the unpadded  +4 db limit may actually cause overload problems/distorted file even in 24 bit mode. Given the F6 design, maybe something more than +4 would have be a safer option?
If I'm right, recording two parallel tracks in 32 and 24 will result in having  a 24 bit files probably ok "out of the box"  if you've trimmed levels ok, and in a 32 bit files which free from setting inaccuracy; both files, though, are equally subjected to the same risk of input overload - if rare, I argue.
I just wonder if the "traditional" F4/F8 of recording a "more generous" file and a safety track 12 db lower could lead to a safer result and less fiddling at the end of the day.

Apart from measurements, which are interesting indeed, I'd like to figure out what performance F6 will give in an average scenario - i.e. recording a  classical or jazz concert or a choir or whatever - with a pair or average sensitivity mics. How does it compare in sound quality to an F4/8 or Mixpre or even a cheaper recorder like Zoom H6?  Reading here and there it seems that, using condenser mics, the limit in noise floor is most likely stated by the mic self noise more than preamps.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 04, 2020, 03:39:21 AM
@Jerryfreak, thanks for all the work you've done! From what's been answered by Zoom  I get that the digital trim also in 24 can only be adjusted after the analog input stage.
It seems, the,  that the padded line-in input may produce a bit more noise as a result;  I still wonder if in real world use the unpadded  +4 db limit may actually cause overload problems/distorted file even in 24 bit mode.


it would be identical. if you overload a 24 bit file by going over +4/+24, it would be the same in 32 bit

i can ask them if the limiter helps a hot signal but im thinking not based on the block diagram it lives in the digital portion. however, limiter is disabled in float vs integer so maybe theres an advantage

Apart from measurements, which are interesting indeed, I'd like to figure out what performance F6 will give in an average scenario - i.e. recording a  classical or jazz concert or a choir or whatever - with a pair or average sensitivity mics. How does it compare in sound quality to an F4/8 or Mixpre or even a cheaper recorder like Zoom H6?  Reading here and there it seems that, using condenser mics, the limit in noise floor is most likely stated by the mic self noise more than preamps.

i think its great. when used correctly it should be basically indistinguishable from F4/F8/mixpre. I cant personally speak to H6, it is known as a 'lower grade' of gear relative to the others, but that probably has to do with how much gain youre using. almost any modern recorder does a good job when fed a decent line signal and not leaning on the gain stage
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 04, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
4) Right channel signal is hotter (equating to lower noise after equal level adjustment of signal) but is less clean. I prefer the Left channel signal.

yes they were different mics (one dpa and one schoeps). the fact that you can hear differences in noise character between them indicates the mic self noise is at least as apparent as the input noise floor.

To clarify, I didn't notice a difference in noise character between the two channels in each sample, but rather between different samples in the same channel. In listening for difference in noise character I was trying to determine if I was hearing the same source noise in each sample, or the noise of different things. Any difference in character I heard was relatively subtle and I could be imagining it, influenced by noise level differences and the slightly different profile at the start of each file as it settles.

The character and level of the noise floor between left and right channels appeared about the same as I recall, but with a slightly hotter signal in the right channel, which I presume is due to differences in mic sensitivity.  The character of the signal in each channel was different (expected from the different mics), with the left channel signal sounding cleaner to my ear, be that from a subtle difference in frequency response, resonances, or some other form of subtle distortion. 

I'll try and give another listen this weekend to actual downloaded files on my higher quality Senn phones.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 04, 2020, 10:58:13 AM
by the nature of the setup they werent on same vertical axis so there may be some difference in sound ,mic'ing a 2-way speaker from slightly different spots at a reasonably close distance

more from zoom

Quote from: me
does the limiter help with input signals over +4/+24dB? or is it too far into the digital chain to effectively prevent overload?

Quote from: zoom
In 32-bit float the limiter will have no beneficial effect. In 24-bit it will reduce analog gain and add it back after conversion to buy some extra headroom. There is also a look-ahead mode which works as effectively as a analog limiter.

Quote from: me
i saw the F4 and f8 were spec'd at +14dBU input with limiter on, is this in the same range?

Quote from: zoom
Yes. Limiter is the same as the F8n in 24-bit mode.


seems worthy of some experimentation.
if all of what he is saying is correct, namely:
- noise floor is fixed and identical in both float and integer modes
- + 4dBU will clip input on 32bit and limiter is not available
- +14dBU is available with limiter in 24-bit mode

this could create a scenario where 24-bit would actually have more usable input headroom than 32-bit float (albeit compressed on the top end, better than clipping)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 04, 2020, 11:25:31 AM
by the nature of the setup they werent on same vertical axis so there may be some difference in sound ,mic'ing a 2-way speaker from slightly different spots at a reasonably close distance

Noted, thanks.  That could easily account for much of the difference I was hearing.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 04, 2020, 11:43:37 AM
Apart from measurements, which are interesting indeed, I'd like to figure out what performance F6 will give in an average scenario - i.e. recording a  classical or jazz concert or a choir or whatever - with a pair or average sensitivity mics. How does it compare in sound quality to an F4/8 or Mixpre or even a cheaper recorder like Zoom H6?  Reading here and there it seems that, using condenser mics, the limit in noise floor is most likely stated by the mic self noise more than preamps.

I don't have an F4 or F6 to compare with, but here some samples of concerts I recorded with DPA4061 > F6.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190175.msg2324851#msg2324851 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190175.msg2324851#msg2324851)

Keep in mind that I have to use iZtotope Spectral Denoise on almost every recording due to noisy HVAC in the places I am recording, especially with the 4061s which pick up everything in the room.  I believe that a couple recent chamber choir concerts I recorded with my CM3s did not need any denoising because the HVAC was off (huzzah)!  I'll post those when I find them.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 04, 2020, 11:45:09 AM
some questions zoom has answered for me in last week or so

Quote from: zoom
The dual ADC is used when recording in 32 bit float and when recording in 24 bit. The Trim allows you to set the level that will be recorded to the 24 bit file. This makes it so that if the signal clips in 24 bit mode, it is due to the file clipping from the limitations of the 24 bit integer format, not from clipping at the converter. Since linear formats cannot accommodate the wide dynamic range of the dual ADC on the F6, a software Trim is necessary to set the level of the recorded file.

^Good. Establishes that in 24bit mode, the ADC no longer represents a bottleneck.


Quote from: jerryfreak
i've done some tests recording relatively quiet source material , both line in, and mic in, and i really can't hear a difference in the integer vs float files when normalized. it seems like the EIN is the limiting factor.

Quote from: zoom
As you point out here, the theoretical implications of 32-bit float are limited by hardware. With a quiet signal, I wouldn't expect you to hear a difference in the integer vs float files.

^This! [bolding is my emphasis]


Quote from: jerryfreak
considering that in either integer or float the max input level is +4dbu, and the EIN is fixed, i don't quite understand how the float files increase dynamic range between these two endpoints. i understand how the two ADCs can have a wider range of 200 db or more, but i still can't wrap my head around how that increases the 120ish db dynamic range of the input

Quote from: zoom
The preamp and ADC are going to act the same whether in float or integer. Floating point allows the final recorded file to have an extended dynamic range. So if recording in integer, the bit depth itself will limit the dynamic range meaning that somewhere in the full dynamic range of the preamps and ADC's it will have to cut it, meaning there is a ceiling and a floor which will either clip or not record. When recording float files, you can capture the entire dynamic range possible.

^ To my way of thinking, this is the critical question. 24 bit integer format can fully accommodate a 120ish dB dynamic range limit imposed by the hardware (the range between EIN and +4dBu) .


Quote from: jerryfreak
one more question: since the trim is acting as an attenuator, when recording in 24-bit mode would the best performance be achieved with trim set to 0dB?

Quote from: zoom
Not necessarily. Because both AD converters are working all the time, where the trim is set doesn't have as much effect on the performance as what the AD converters decide to do 

I read this as confirming that we can set trim to minimum (thus minimizing the possibility of overloading the input) and not incur an increased noise-floor from the recorder. So far it looks like there is no disadvantage to recording in 24 bit mode with minimum trim, assuming one is fine with adjusting levels as necessary in post, which one would need to do if recording in 32FP mode anyway.



more from zoom

Quote from: jerryfreak
does the limiter help with input signals over +4/+24dB? or is it too far into the digital chain to effectively prevent overload?

Quote from: zoom
In 32-bit float the limiter will have no beneficial effect. In 24-bit it will reduce analog gain and add it back after conversion to buy some extra headroom. There is also a look-ahead mode which works as effectively as a analog limiter.

Increases headroom for hot inputs but potentially reduces overall dynamic range by attenuating the input signal.  Does input attenuation raise EIN < it should not. But because input signal level is reduced by the pad while EIN remains the same, the result is an increase in apparent noise floor of the recorder in relation to signal. [several edits made here as I've re-thought this through, with distractions]

^ [edit: I have to think this part through more, and maybe listen to the low level samples again]


Quote from: jerryfreak
i saw the F4 and f8 were spec'd at +14dBU input with limiter on, is this in the same range?

Quote from: zoom
Yes. Limiter is the same as the F8n in 24-bit mode.

Good to get this cleared up.



Quote from: jerryfreak
seems worthy of some experimentation.
if all of what he is saying is correct, namely:
- noise floor is fixed and identical in both float and integer modes
- + 4dBU will clip input on 32bit and limiter is not available
- +14dBU is available with limiter in 24-bit mode

this could create a scenario where 24-bit would actually have more usable input headroom than 32-bit float (albeit compressed on the top end, better than clipping)

Yes. Would be ironic, no? Except dynamic range may be reduced by the same amount.

[note: initial editing to streamline the questions/answer quoting above, no content changed]
[multiple re-edits to my comments only]
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: carpa on June 04, 2020, 01:38:28 PM
Apart from measurements, which are interesting indeed, I'd like to figure out what performance F6 will give in an average scenario - i.e. recording a  classical or jazz concert or a choir or whatever - with a pair or average sensitivity mics. How does it compare in sound quality to an F4/8 or Mixpre or even a cheaper recorder like Zoom H6?  Reading here and there it seems that, using condenser mics, the limit in noise floor is most likely stated by the mic self noise more than preamps.

I don't have an F4 or F6 to compare with, but here some samples of concerts I recorded with DPA4061 > F6.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190175.msg2324851#msg2324851 (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=190175.msg2324851#msg2324851)

Keep in mind that I have to use iZtotope Spectral Denoise on almost every recording due to noisy HVAC in the places I am recording, especially with the 4061s which pick up everything in the room.  I believe that a couple recent chamber choir concerts I recorded with my CM3s did not need any denoising because the HVAC was off (huzzah)!  I'll post those when I find them.

Very nice recordings! Thank you for the link. Actually I ended up buying an H6 which is on it's way now (which isn't the same league as F6, of course) 'cause I had the chance of a good discount on one of the last "old" grey model vs the "new", which is only just painted black with no other differences than coming without the m-s capsule ( sound ironical, but true) and bag. So at less price I still have the two capsules. I don't expect much quality over my old R09HR , but I have XLR and I'll take it as a chance to make some practice with more than 2 tracks and can still make some experiments/comparisons with my littlebox as an external preamp. I think I'll consider to be covered with mic options on the cheap side and save cash for a "serious" pair of condensers, which in any case I think will make a difference.   In the worst scenario it will serve as interface for Skype calls. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 04, 2020, 03:38:36 PM
The H6 is a decent recorder and will serve you well.  I don't own one, but have used one several times.  The preamps are not the quietest, if that matters to you.  My main gripe is that the level knobs are very fiddly.  It is otherwise very simple to use.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 04, 2020, 10:42:10 PM
Does input attenuation raise EIN < it should not. But because input signal level is reduced by the pad while EIN remains the same, the result is an increase in apparent noise floor of the recorder in relation to signal.

thats my take.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 09, 2020, 10:28:11 AM
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before, but seeing as I always record in 32-bit float mode I never discovered this odd behavior.  It seems that in 16 or 24-bit fixed mode, you cannot use the knobs to change your ISO track level; just the stereo downmix.  In order to change your ISO levels in that mode, you have to go through the menus to each track's PFL menu.

Here's a video explaining the issue.  I agree with him that a firmware update is called for, and it would be great if there was a quick way to toggle between the knobs controlling ISO levels and the downmix as you can on the F4 and F8.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro5Op9d-LKI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro5Op9d-LKI)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on June 09, 2020, 10:35:10 AM
correct, see test 1 and test 5 in my last series. faders at opposite extreme, isos came out the same

agreed the firmware should allow control of trim

i just requested. Response was

Quote from: zoom
Currently not possible, but it is a comment we have alerted our engineers to.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on August 29, 2020, 11:46:28 PM
some measurements done by Amir over at ASR

im not convinced the USB mode he has tested it in is representative of standalone use, hopefully he can do a further testing in 24- or  32-bit

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/

theres a guy near Amir with a mixpre 3 II. I'd love to seem him measure the two side-by side with both mic and line-level signals (particularly low-level mic signals typical of use, not necessarily 'mic in' at its max input level)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 30, 2020, 07:58:31 AM
some measurements done by Amir over at ASR

im not convinced the USB mode he has tested it in is representative of standalone use, hopefully he can do a further testing in 24- or  32-bit

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/

theres a guy near Amir with a mixpre 3 II. I'd love to seem him measure the two side-by side with both mic and line-level signals (particularly low-level mic signals typical of use, not necessarily 'mic in' at its max input level)

Thanks for sharing that thread.  I believe that either something is wrong with his F6, or it performs very poorly as a USB interface.  I have only used it that way once, and not for concert recording.  I didn't notice any problems in the short time I tried it.

I think he needs to do standalone measurements on the unit for comparison before we can say anything meaningful about his results.  While I can't find anyone else who has done detailed measurements on one of these, the feedback from the film / TV sound people seems to be universally positive on this unit.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 30, 2020, 07:59:18 AM
Curtis Judd has announced an entire online course on the F6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHUBjkWWzVY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHUBjkWWzVY)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on August 30, 2020, 02:44:38 PM
Thanks for sharing that thread.  I believe that either something is wrong with his F6, or it performs very poorly as a USB interface.  I have only used it that way once, and not for concert recording.  I didn't notice any problems in the short time I tried it.

i hope not! it's mine...  :hmmm:

I think he needs to do standalone measurements on the unit for comparison before we can say anything meaningful about his results. 

agreed. i'm getting my legs on my measurement game, and have an RME ADI-2 PRO FS-R coming in next week which is truly 'measurement grade' interface on both input and output. ill make a testing thread once i dive deep into it. i certainly have no shortage of different gear to run at this point.

Its unfortunate as i was hoping Amir could do the full suite on the zoom, but his AP tester does DACs better than (non USB) ADCs, as he can feed most of them USB or SPDIF easily then loop back the inputs. A non-USB (or non-decent USB) ADC like the zoom has no clear path back to the AP to do real-time tests... so he's limited to post analyzing wav files in software (which is possible and ive been doing it lately). Is it as good as his $30K AP? For our purposes, possibly

I'd like to ultimately build a database similar to the avisoft recorder test page, which focuses on criteria more relevant to us (no offense birders... most of us arent relying on built-in preamps on our handhelds as our primary rig. Not that that operation isnt relevant but its only one picture. Also the way they present the data is kinda headache inducing for me, personally)

heres what my ideal database fields would look like
mfr
model
release year
inputs (balanced, unbalanced, digital)
ADC chip (if known)
max line-in dBu
max mic-in dBu
minimum mic-in input level setting (where input clipping occurs before 0dBFS AKA "brickwalling"
minimum line-in input level setting (same brickwalling)
S/N, Dynamic range, noise floor, etc., at some arbitrary micinput level like -30dBU or -40dBU
battery life at 2 ch
battery life at max channels

what else relevant are we missing? i can get us a good start. recorders/adcs i have handy
F6
PCM-A10
ICD-UX560
ICD-UX570
R-07
DR2D
DR100mkiii
V3
AD2K
ADC1
ADI-2
ADI-2 PRO FS-R
Brooklyn ADC

the measurements are relatively basic and we could fill it out quickly with some community effort
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: beatkilla on August 30, 2020, 04:14:09 PM
Thanks for sharing that thread.  I believe that either something is wrong with his F6, or it performs very poorly as a USB interface.  I have only used it that way once, and not for concert recording.  I didn't notice any problems in the short time I tried it.

i hope not! it's mine...  :hmmm:

I think he needs to do standalone measurements on the unit for comparison before we can say anything meaningful about his results. 

agreed. i'm getting my legs on my measurement game, and have an RME ADI-2 PRO FS-R coming in next week which is truly 'measurement grade' interface on both input and output. ill make a testing thread once i dive deep into it. i certainly have no shortage of different gear to run at this point.

Its unfortunate as i was hoping Amir could do the full suite on the zoom, but his AP tester does DACs better than (non USB) ADCs, as he can feed most of them USB or SPDIF easily then loop back the inputs. A non-USB (or non-decent USB) ADC like the zoom has no clear path back to the AP to do real-time tests... so he's limited to post analyzing wav files in software (which is possible and ive been doing it lately). Is it as good as his $30K AP? For our purposes, possibly

I'd like to ultimately build a database similar to the avisoft recorder test page, which focuses on criteria more relevant to us (no offense birders... most of us arent relying on built-in preamps on our handhelds as our primary rig. Not that that operation isnt relevant but its only one picture. Also the way they present the data is kinda headache inducing for me, personally)

heres what my ideal database fields would look like
mfr
model
release year
inputs (balanced, unbalanced, digital)
ADC chip (if known)
max line-in dBu
max mic-in dBu
minimum mic-in input level setting (where input clipping occurs before 0dBFS AKA "brickwalling"
minimum line-in input level setting (same brickwalling)
S/N, Dynamic range, noise floor, etc., at some arbitrary micinput level like -30dBU or -40dBU
battery life at 2 ch
battery life at max channels

what else relevant are we missing? i can get us a good start. recorders/adcs i have handy
F6
PCM-A10
ICD-UX560
ICD-UX570
R-07
DR2D
DR100mkiii
V3
AD2K
ADC1
ADI-2
ADI-2 PRO FS-R
Brooklyn ADC

the measurements are relatively basic and we could fill it out quickly with some community effort


How to test the maximum input levels of MIC and LINE before brickwalling?

I am looking for these above information pertaining to KORG MR-2 .This is my main stealth deck.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on August 30, 2020, 04:42:43 PM
feed sine wave at known level to recorder and look at resulting wave in wave editor. easy to see clipping
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 01, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
I'd like to ultimately build a database similar to the avisoft recorder test page, which focuses on criteria more relevant to us

This would be a great resource.  Beyond the initial rush of testing and data posting, I suspect the primary challenge may be keeping it updated moving forward!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 03, 2020, 10:05:53 AM
sorry to post yet another non-F6 post, but i am at a loss for where to start the discussion of measurements

the most logical place would be in the 'knowledge base' forum but that seems to be basically deprecated

if we do it here in the gear/technical help forum, there isnt a clear fit for devices which are either dedicated ADCs or integrated recorders, etc.

thoughts?

i was envisioning a thread for discussion of measurement techniques, hardware, and software, and another concise one with simply results

perhaps the latter would be better served by a single static off-TS resource like google sheets or google drive? as it would be primarily a 'read-only' dealio.

i almost feel like we could use a dedicated board for measurements which allows for a thread for each component and discussion contained within
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 03, 2020, 06:06:58 PM
Good questions. Very much looking forward to the discussion.. and results, wherever posted.  It seems to me a dedicated sub-board in knowldege base would be the most appropriate place, as overtime it can and should grow to include general info on audio measurements and testing relevant to other aspects of recording and playback. If a dedicated sub-board is undesirable for some reason, it could be "stickied" there.

Thinking of some formerly active TS folks who could have contributed greatly to such a discussion, including Jon of Naiant, Spark E, and a few others.

Beyond bench testing, I've long wished for the ability to measure "as rigged" directional response of a single microphone, and by further extension more complex 2-ch and multichannel arrays. In part simply to gain a deeper understanding of what is going on in reality rather than assuming idealized responses and plots, especially when using odd mountings and setups, such as those common to stealth arrangements, and in part to help better optimize such setups.  For instance I use four identical omnis in one particular setup, but the way they are mounted changes the frequency and polar responses from mic to mic.  I compensate afterwards in post by ear, and over time with respect to tweaking the setup arrangements, but it would be great to have a better picture of what is going on.  DIY speaker guys are doing backyard ground-plane measurements using a rotating platform for the device under test without access to an anechoic chamber, no reason we can't do the same.  That alone would be super informative, but it would not be a stretch to take it to the next level and use such data to design corrective filters similar to the DIY speaker guys rolling their own filter and crossover networks with measurement gear and stuff like the miniDSP devices. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on September 04, 2020, 04:54:45 AM
some measurements done by Amir over at ASR

im not convinced the USB mode he has tested it in is representative of standalone use, hopefully he can do a further testing in 24- or  32-bit

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/

Amir added (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/page-6) some additional tests/results (post 111).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 04, 2020, 07:15:18 AM
some measurements done by Amir over at ASR

im not convinced the USB mode he has tested it in is representative of standalone use, hopefully he can do a further testing in 24- or  32-bit

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/

Amir added (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/page-6) some additional tests/results (post 111).

The new test was done in a pass-through mode to the line / HP outputs.  It's hard to know if the LF noise he measured is being introduced by the input stage, the ADC, the DAC, or the output stage.  Clearly it's coming from somewhere, but there are a lot of variables here.

I still would like to see tests of recording controlled content in both 24-bit and 32-bit FP modes, and measuring the resulting files to isolate the input stage and ADC end, and remove the DAC and output stage from the equation.

While I never used one myself, I have read that the headphone out on the first-generation F8 was not good at all, and not representative of the quality that was actually being recorded to the card.  If Zoom decided to cut corners with the outputs on that higher-priced unit, it isn't much of a leap to think they would do the same on a lower-priced one.


FWIW, I have never had any sort of noise issues with my recordings made on the F6, and probably record quieter music than most people here.  That's going off of the resulting files after they have been dumped to my PC.  I don't think I have ever actually used the HP/Line output on the F6.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 04, 2020, 07:29:14 AM
i’m not sold on those tests. per the block diagram the line out routes thru a DAC circuit that the manual specs at ninety-something dB. i can do full tests with a recorded file (at 24/96 at least). and analyze them in post.

by my earlier crude tests 24 bit and 32 bit were indistinguishable when it came to noise floor

i should have it back next week
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 04, 2020, 09:53:43 AM
While I never used one myself, I have read that the headphone out on the first-generation F8 was not good at all, and not representative of the quality that was actually being recorded to the card.  If Zoom decided to cut corners with the outputs on that higher-priced unit, it isn't much of a leap to think they would do the same on a lower-priced one.


FWIW, I have never had any sort of noise issues with my recordings made on the F6, and probably record quieter music than most people here.  That's going off of the resulting files after they have been dumped to my PC.  I don't think I have ever actually used the HP/Line output on the F6.

Just to clarify-

F8 (1st gen) and F8N (2nd gen) use the same headphone circuitry, spec'd at 100mW output per side. The problem was insufficient gain in the headphone circuit.  Firmware v5.1 update added the F8N's adjustable digital gain feature (up to +24dB) to the headphone output F8 as well, and with that the F8 achieves sufficient monitoring levels.  With that feature in use I am able to drive Senn HD600/650 to sufficient level without use of an external amp for non-normalized raw recording playback and both level and subjective quality are fine.  It's fully sufficient in that sense.  Although I rarely live monitor while recording it's strong enough for that as long as the digital gain feature is used. I use the headphone output primarily and occasionally the unbalanced AUX out, and have never actually used its balanced main line-out. I don't expect the headphone output to necessarily be of the same resolution as the input side of things and fully agree that testing using recorded files rather than loop-back would be preferable for the intended use of recorders with our goals in mind.

[/OT F8 discussion]
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on September 04, 2020, 10:06:03 AM
Presumably, it is not the DAC or output as the same problem showed up in audio interface mode.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 04, 2020, 10:27:55 AM
measurement discussion picking up here (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=195233.0)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on September 09, 2020, 03:43:55 AM
Hello tapers, this is my first post. I did a lot of reading on your site in past years and decided to join the group after reading all the posts about the Zoom F6.
I play pipe organ as a hobby and make recordings of pipe organs using 2 DPA 4090 microphones and an OADE PMD661 super mod recorder or a Denon SD recorder F450R with Lake People C360 preamp.
To allow recording pipe organ and an extra solo instrument I was looking for a recorder with at least one extra channel to use a spot mic.
I tried the MixPre 3, Zoom F6 and Zoom F8N and finally selected the Zoom F6. Just selected by playing/recording (using composed stops on the organ with a lot of harmonics) and careful listening to the result (with AKG K701 head phones).
I did not notice any noise, except very faint from the microphones. And no audible distortion.

Overall I am very satisfied with the recorder, so I was surprised to see a link to a site providing measurements done by Amir with conclusion that he could not recommend this recorder.
Did I buy bad equipment after all? It seems that measurements do (to some extent) not reflect the final result what you can hear.
Maybe someone can give a bit clarification to me.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 09, 2020, 01:19:54 PM
Welcome to taperssection Organfreak!

What you are asking is the focus of the the recent discussion above in the thread.  I've yet to check out the test write up at audiosciencereveiw, but the contention above concerns the testing methodology used which requires loop-back connection via computer USB interface function.  The suspicion is that the problems are with the USB audio interface rather than affecting the the primary function of recording analog inputs stored locally on the SDcard.    The call above is to re-test using a methodology that better reflects typical recording use rather than use as an interface.

Don't worry!  Many TS members have been making great recordings using the F6 in its primary role as stand-alone recorder, and most tapers do not use its USB interface functionality.

Looking forward to talking more about organ recording with you..
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 09, 2020, 01:54:13 PM
welcome organfreak!

i dont think the book is written on the F6. i should have it back by the weekend and will do my own tests

when i sent that to amir i knew little about testing and now have a better grasp on it so i feel that i can give it a good evaluation for our purposes

i too have made great (to my ears) recordings with the F6
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on September 09, 2020, 02:10:16 PM
the contention above concerns the testing methodology used which requires loop-back connection via computer USB interface function.  The suspicion is that the problems are with the USB audio interface rather than affecting the the primary function of recording analog inputs stored locally on the SDcard.    The call above is to re-test using a methodology that better reflects typical recording use rather than use as an interface.

In response to a number of requests, the guy at audiosciencereview performed a second test without USB (straight through the recorder in stand-alone mode to the line-out). He found similar rising low-frequency noise as in USB mode, but that test also had an extra DAC/line-out step. Maybe I am wrong, but the presence of the noise in both tests suggests to me that the noise is coming from the pre/ADC (since it exists without the DAC/output stage and it also exists without the USB). In any event, it peaked at something like -70 or -80 dB at 20 Hz, so probably not audible in many real-world uses...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 09, 2020, 02:18:47 PM
the contention above concerns the testing methodology used which requires loop-back connection via computer USB interface function.  The suspicion is that the problems are with the USB audio interface rather than affecting the the primary function of recording analog inputs stored locally on the SDcard.    The call above is to re-test using a methodology that better reflects typical recording use rather than use as an interface.

In response to a number of requests, the guy at audiosciencereview performed a second test without USB (straight through the recorder in stand-alone mode to the line-out). He found similar rising low-frequency noise as in USB mode, but that test also had an extra DAC/line-out step. Maybe I am wrong, but the presence of the noise in both tests suggests to me that the noise is coming from the pre/ADC (since it exists without the DAC/output stage and it also exists without the USB). In any event, it peaked at something like -70 or -80 dB at 20 Hz, so probably not audible in many real-world uses...
agreed on all counts

ill do my best to figure it out

and yes we are spoiled, even poorly performing (on paper) modern recorders are well above the gear we were using a decade ago for our purposes
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on September 09, 2020, 10:50:21 PM
There's always two issues when considering noise - firstly, there's the "does it actually matter" factor and secondly, there's the "never mind whether it matters, am I using the best gear I can afford" factor.

With respect to the former, when it comes to music, especially classical music with its very wide dynamic range, the chances of anyone being troubled by the noise from any reasonable recording system when the replay is at "authentic levels" in a typical listening environment, is close to zero.  By "authentic levels" I mean a level such as the original live recording would reach at the listener's ear.  Of course you can turn up the level way beyond that, at which point you might hear some system noise, but you'd also start to hear ambient noise to a distracting degree - there's not many recording locations where live music is performed that have noise levels below system noise.  (And of course, for pipe organs, you start to hear blower and action sounds pretty soon).  And when it comes to listening environments (ignoring headphones for the moment) I suspect 90% also have background noise levels above system noise.

Now when it comes to nature recordings, if you want to clearly hear a sparrow's tweet 100 metres away, you may want to turn up the level way above what is natural, and system noise might then be more of a factor.

As for using the best gear you can afford - well, you just have to accept that in 6 months' time, you'll need the next new thing.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: rastasean on September 10, 2020, 12:30:00 AM
Jerryfreak,

Thanks for sharing the link to audiosciencereview and sending Amir your recorder. It'll be interesting to see your results.

Just sonically, I know Curtis Judd and a nature field recordist, George Vlad, have said the F6 and mixpre II series are very close together with the mics they've used. Understandably, they haven't tested either recorder extensively as a USB device.

I understand and appreciate the fact the F6 has a USB interface but to completely dismiss the recorder on those findings, while comparing it to specific devices that are usb input devices, seems a little peculiar. This is the first I've heard of the site so maybe he only focuses on audio devices connected to computers.

In the few times you've talked with Zoom support, have you provided them links to TS or the audioscience page? They could be a little forthcoming with information, so we don't have to use so much conjecture and speculation based on all these tests.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 10, 2020, 12:34:00 AM
In the few times you've talked with Zoom support, have you provided them links to TS or the audioscience page? They could be a little forthcoming with information, so we don't have to use so much conjecture and speculation based on all these tests.

i sent my contact a link on 8/31. he said give him a few days he wanted to se eif he could get an engineer to weigh in

just bumped him and got an auto reply that hes out from 9/4-9/14. so a few more days probably
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 10, 2020, 12:55:15 PM
Hello tapers, this is my first post. I did a lot of reading on your site in past years and decided to join the group after reading all the posts about the Zoom F6.
I play pipe organ as a hobby and make recordings of pipe organs using 2 DPA 4090 microphones and an OADE PMD661 super mod recorder or a Denon SD recorder F450R with Lake People C360 preamp.
To allow recording pipe organ and an extra solo instrument I was looking for a recorder with at least one extra channel to use a spot mic.
I tried the MixPre 3, Zoom F6 and Zoom F8N and finally selected the Zoom F6. Just selected by playing/recording (using composed stops on the organ with a lot of harmonics) and careful listening to the result (with AKG K701 head phones).
I did not notice any noise, except very faint from the microphones. And no audible distortion.

Overall I am very satisfied with the recorder, so I was surprised to see a link to a site providing measurements done by Amir with conclusion that he could not recommend this recorder.
Did I buy bad equipment after all? It seems that measurements do (to some extent) not reflect the final result what you can hear.
Maybe someone can give a bit clarification to me.

Welcome, Organfreak!  It's good to have another classical recordist around here.

I think I can put your mind at ease.  Here is a link to some samples of my recordings (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/auvka6syq8jgopr/AAArGSLuwKHxTmim80n6vFIDa?dl=0) made with DPA 4061s (same capsules your 4090s) straight into my F6.  The only one in there that isn't made with the F6 is the Wind Quintet file, which used a Tascam DR-70D.

Keep in mind that almost all of the places I record have audible HVAC noise, so they take a trip through iZotope RX Spectral Denoise to remove the worst of it.  I do this at a minimal level, though.  The Festival Sanctus track may not have had RX - I seem to remember that church was very quiet.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on September 11, 2020, 09:11:55 AM
Thanks all for the remarks and clarifications. There is an awful amount of knowledge and on hand experience available on this forum!
@Voltronic: I will download your samples and pay a listen.
@Gutbucket: It would be nice to discuss about organ recordings. I do it for years, starting with a Philips tape recorder (having this heavy device still at home). Do you also make organ recordings?
@Jerryfreak: Success with your tests. Do you have dedicated test equipment?

I found a test of the Zoom F6 on the internet, sorry that it is in German. For most Dutch people not a problem as the languages have a lot in common. Maybe some of you have German roots?
See graphs on last page. Total distortion is listed as 0,0083%. That seems not much. The test with conclusion is very positive.
I only included the last page of the test report because of size restrictions. If someone is interested I can send to complete test as separate pages.

The preamps in the Zoom F6 should not be the weakest link. I had some correspondence with Doug Oade (who upgraded my PMD661) before I bought the F6; the preamp chip used by Zoom in all its F series recorders is the THAT 1510.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 11, 2020, 05:21:24 PM
i translated that review the best i could, cant say i agree with the comments

 "The distortion values ​​are outstanding...The F6 takes measurements at full level. Total distortion of about 0.0083%"

"The distortion spectrum shows that despite highly developed 32-bit technology
there is a certain difference in quality compared to expensive studio converters.
However, the performance is very decent for a mobile device."

assuming that number is THD+N, thats not all that great, it is a SINAD of about -81dB, which is more like ultraportable/handheld territory and step below what a balanced input recorder should be

it would be cool if you can link the rest of the pdf so we can see their methodology

the graph in the linked PDF shows the same low-frequency distortion that amir measured

when i try to measure the F6 anywhere near its stated max line input level of +24dBU the distortion blows it out. with a 1kHz sine wave, i can get up close to the max input (well  to +22dBU which is the limit of my DACs output...i could throw a preamp in there to push it to +24 with equally disastrous results)

But cant get anywhere near that with  the low frequencies

heres what the RMAA test file looks like. the two highlighted portions of the waveform are the low frequency portions of the sweep and multitone portion
note that the undistorted level of the original file has all the frequencies at the same level in the sweep and multi-tone portions

(https://i.imgur.com/3iW79aY.png)

here are recorded 32/96 wav files at different input levels. from top to bottom, i tested input levels from +16dBu to+22dBu in 1dB increments. i didnt bother dialing in the gain on the zoom as it really wouldnt matter, so these are slightly off in overall dB but look at those low frequency potions relative to the rest of the waveform.

+16 and +17 dB look good, both look like this

(https://i.imgur.com/vNf9qVN.png)

at +18dBu we are starting to see distortion of the low frequencies of the multitone

(https://i.imgur.com/n8E8BWa.png)

at +19dBu we are seeing these get worse. the zoom is flashing the 'exceeding input level' on the screen

(https://i.imgur.com/svpQUlT.png)

zoomed in to distorted waveform

(https://i.imgur.com/0NYhrRK.png)

at +21dBu the low frequency portion of the sweep is starting to distort as well

(https://i.imgur.com/SeEgaB1.png)

this gets even worse at +22dBU

(https://i.imgur.com/8VbQkvH.png)

to eliminate any variables of playback system, here is same playback system fed to the AD2K (now 20-year old technology) at +22dBu input. look at the absence of visible low-frequency distortion and how much cleaner the waveform is overall

(https://i.imgur.com/vWl08Ke.png)







Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 11, 2020, 07:12:57 PM
RMAA tests of zoom, with AD2K plotted as a reference

two sets of measurements, one using benchmark DAC2 for source and the other using mytek brooklyn dac+, to similar results

yeah that low frequency distortion is unshakable at any input level

is -70 to -80 dB distortion below 50Hz a problem? not sure, its pretty low on the audibility curve of human hearing

knowing what i know now, will i be using the HPF? you bet

if you only need 4 channels and dont need phantom, will the tascam dr-2d rival or best it in sound quality? per my tests, seems like it.

at the end of the day it seems like the sound quality of a handheld (at best) in a prosumer body.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 11, 2020, 08:27:47 PM
I wonder if Zoom is playing fast and loose with the input level specs.  I see that the F8n is also rated for +24 dB max line level, but only with limiters engaged.

It's doubtful they put a better input stage on the F6, with even less space to work with.

What I'm saying is: maybe the true max input level on the F6 is really nowhere near +24 dB without the limiter inline.  It doesn't say that on the specs page, but still...

Jerryfreak, I wonder what your tests look like with the limiters engaged?


At this point I'm concerned, but still have not run into anything that offends my ears.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 11, 2020, 08:31:19 PM
i think if i put the limiters on it, it might reduce the LF overload, still we would be left with mediocre performance. even at low signal levels the distortion is a bit out-of-range for gear of its class.

worth noting that if you have an even half decent DAC (most are +4dBu nominal unbalanced) local testing can replicate almost any of those results
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: fotoralf.be on September 12, 2020, 10:59:46 AM
"The distortion values ​​are outstanding...The F6 takes measurements at full level. Total distortion of about 0.0083%"

Almost...  ;-)

"The distortion values aren't quite as outstanding. According to my measurements, the F6 reaches a THD of 0.0083% at maximum level. This is a very good value for a mobile unit running on battery power but most stationary audio interfaces (costing several times as much) nowadays reach far better values."

HTH
Ralf
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on September 12, 2020, 11:16:02 AM
I listened to the samples of Voltronic (Laptop>Audioquest Dragonfly>Rega Brio-R>Totem Arro). It sounded beautiful, no sign of distortion or whatever. The artists were also above average level.

I will use the Zoom F6 only with microphones and will never reach the critical border of ~+17dbU where distortion really starts. I will maybe even not reach the maximum of +4dBU as listed by Zoom for its mic inputs.

Despite the apparently bad specifications I liked the perceived sound quality of the Zoom F6 more than the SD MixPre 3. Using my ears and my microphones... While the MixPre 3 may show much better test results. Would that be the different approach in preamp (Zoom using the THAT 1510 chip <-> SD using their own developed discrete class A preamp)?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 13, 2020, 02:48:20 PM
I listened to the samples of Voltronic (Laptop>Audioquest Dragonfly>Rega Brio-R>Totem Arro). It sounded beautiful, no sign of distortion or whatever. The artists were also above average level.

Glad you liked them.  Nice playback chain you have there!

You might also be interested in this folder of samples  (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fgauh6pswkgpx67/AABZiWgBRjCMXWS55Vk1eV5Wa)which has a recording I did recently of an organ selection - Conrad Susa - March for a Joyous Occasion.  This was with my CM3s in a 30 cm / 100 deg array, and were positioned to best capture the choir at this concert.  The organ selection was there mainly to give the choir a vocal rest in lieu of an intermission.  These are not the mics nor the arrangement I would choose for an organ recital, but I think it came out OK, considering.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 13, 2020, 03:13:05 PM
Despite the apparently bad specifications I liked the perceived sound quality of the Zoom F6 more than the SD MixPre 3. Using my ears and my microphones... While the MixPre 3 may show much better test results. Would that be the different approach in preamp (Zoom using the THAT 1510 chip <-> SD using their own developed discrete class A preamp)?

analog gain stages definitely have more varying sounds than ADCs. most DACs and ADCs have reached the level of 'transparent'

also worth noting that not all 'distortion' is undesirable
thats why transformer preamps, tube amps, and tape saturation are sought after by some people. all impart varying types of distortion which people find pleasing to their ears
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 14, 2020, 04:36:40 PM
got a response from my zoom support guy, had some notes on USB mode only being 16-bit integer, and also said

Quote from: zoomtech
Overall, the engineers thought the findings were inconsistent, meaning it seemed like there were some additional variables in the testing conditions.

We would suggest for future tests that you use a recorded file or analog audio output with consistent sound to ensure the best results.

Do you have any additional information on the testing conditions, or any specific questions about your findings?

so i sent him all the test results above, including copying the THD plat from the review in the german magazine

we'll see what they come back with
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on September 15, 2020, 04:04:26 AM
@ Voltronic: I have listened to your recordings done with the line audio CM3. Did you also record these using the Zoom F6? It sounded really nice, what struck me most was the good stereo picture of the Concert Band recordings. I made a few recordings of our local Fanfare with omni mics hanging from the truss (~40 cm apart) but the stereo picture was not as good. Also your organ recording was OK, I did not miss the low end.
Line audio mics are surprisingly cheap. There is also an Omni mic from Line audio (the OM1). Can this mic be compared with the DPA 4090?

@ Jerryfreak: Attached are page 2, 3 and 4 of the German magazine test. First page was too large, but is just a picture of the device with conclusion. On page 4 it is confirmed that the F6 cannot handle +24 dBu.

Question: How to quote a section of a previous post in a reply post?.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 15, 2020, 04:38:52 AM
click ‘quote’ in the upper right of the post you wish to quote, then trim out anything you don’t want
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 15, 2020, 06:28:20 AM
@ Voltronic: I have listened to your recordings done with the line audio CM3. Did you also record these using the Zoom F6? It sounded really nice, what struck me most was the good stereo picture of the Concert Band recordings. I made a few recordings of our local Fanfare with omni mics hanging from the truss (~40 cm apart) but the stereo picture was not as good. Also your organ recording was OK, I did not miss the low end.
Line audio mics are surprisingly cheap. There is also an Omni mic from Line audio (the OM1). Can this mic be compared with the DPA 4090?

The organ recording used the F6.  The Concert Band tracks are older and used a Tascam DR-70D. 

If you are interested in the Line Audio mics, click the Team Line Audio link in my signature for a thread on them.  Yes, they are very inexpensive and punch far above their price point.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: fotoralf.be on September 16, 2020, 07:56:44 AM
I'm trying to find out if TwistedWave can handle the 32 bit files from the F6. Could someone kindly send me a short 32 bit audio file, please?

Thanks in advance.

Ralf
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 16, 2020, 12:29:26 PM
I'm trying to find out if TwistedWave can handle the 32 bit files from the F6. Could someone kindly send me a short 32 bit audio file, please?

Thanks in advance.

Ralf

Sound Devices has some sample files here:
https://www.sounddevices.com/sample-32-bit-float-and-24-bit-fixed-wav-files/ (https://www.sounddevices.com/sample-32-bit-float-and-24-bit-fixed-wav-files/)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: fotoralf.be on September 16, 2020, 02:02:18 PM
Quite amazing, thanks. And yes, TwistedWave works fine with the 32 bit data.

Ralf
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: justink on September 21, 2020, 12:27:23 PM
Okay, any audacity users in here?

How are you exporting 32 bit recorded files to 24bit in Audacity?  i need to figure out this new workflow...

my files i exported are still 32bit/48.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: darby on September 21, 2020, 02:19:54 PM
Okay, any audacity users in here?

How are you exporting 32 bit recorded files to 24bit in Audacity?  i need to figure out this new workflow...

my files i exported are still 32bit/48.

export as WAV
when you select WAV, there is a drop down that asks how you want your file type
mines defaults to 16-bit signed PCM, but 24-bit and 32-bit are also available 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: justink on September 21, 2020, 03:00:36 PM
Okay, any audacity users in here?

How are you exporting 32 bit recorded files to 24bit in Audacity?  i need to figure out this new workflow...

my files i exported are still 32bit/48.

export as WAV
when you select WAV, there is a drop down that asks how you want your file type
mines defaults to 16-bit signed PCM, but 24-bit and 32-bit are also available

Okay.  So "export as WAV".  Then "signed 24 bit" is what i need? 

is there no special dither or anything you need to apply?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on September 24, 2020, 04:57:55 AM
got a response from my zoom support guy, had some notes on USB mode only being 16-bit integer, and also said

Quote from: zoomtech
Overall, the engineers thought the findings were inconsistent, meaning it seemed like there were some additional variables in the testing conditions.

We would suggest for future tests that you use a recorded file or analog audio output with consistent sound to ensure the best results.

Do you have any additional information on the testing conditions, or any specific questions about your findings?

so i sent him all the test results above, including copying the THD plat from the review in the german magazine

we'll see what they come back with

No reply from Zoom received yet Jerryfreak?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on September 24, 2020, 06:04:36 AM
correct

update: as of 9/25 they suspect my unit is defective and are are sending me a replacement. i will do another set of tests on this one, as well as the new one, perhaps side-by-side
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: fotoralf.be on September 24, 2020, 09:34:09 AM
I wouldn't hold my breath.

Ralf
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on October 02, 2020, 08:01:52 PM
im at work and just did a quick test with my DAC1, but the same low-frequency distortion is there with the replacement unit
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on October 03, 2020, 11:28:53 AM
got a response from my zoom support guy, had some notes on USB mode only being 16-bit integer, and also said

Quote from: zoomtech
Overall, the engineers thought the findings were inconsistent, meaning it seemed like there were some additional variables in the testing conditions.

We would suggest for future tests that you use a recorded file or analog audio output with consistent sound to ensure the best results.

Do you have any additional information on the testing conditions, or any specific questions about your findings?

so i sent him all the test results above, including copying the THD plat from the review in the german magazine

we'll see what they come back with

Would it be possible to record a test tone on an SD card and verify the amount of low frequency distortion via play-back (as suggested by Zoom above if I understand correctly)?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on October 03, 2020, 11:47:02 AM
yes i already did that, with both units.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on November 06, 2020, 02:53:20 PM
I bought one of these today at a steep discount on Reverb.  Excited to get my hands on it and give it a workout...not that there's any shows coming up soon for me.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 06, 2020, 03:37:32 PM
wow, $380 is a smokin deal

dont believe the "you cannot clip it" hype tho ;)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 06, 2020, 09:15:01 PM
wow, $380 is a smokin deal

dont believe the "you cannot clip it" hype tho ;)

It's not that you can't clip it, but you probably won't, unless you're using very sensitive mics and/or recording really hot levels.

Amazing deal, for sure.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on November 18, 2020, 09:22:51 AM

Been fooling around with the F6 at home and I like it so far.

Navigating the menus is a little clumsy but the more you do something the easier it gets.

The preamps sound pretty good at least in a home test recording things around the house and some guitar and mandolin.

Maybe one day shows will return and I can get out and use it for real but it's getting worse where I live not better.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on November 18, 2020, 09:55:48 AM

Maybe one day shows will return and I can get out and use it for real but it's getting worse where I live not better.

we just gotta get thru winter. there will be 100+ million vaccines deployed before summer even gets here

yeah the menus are a bit counter intuitive. whats advantageous is if youre not using all 6 channels all the time you can keep 2 setup for line-in,  etc.

to me the 'enter' and the 'back' buttons seem like they are always in the wrong place. also i pity anyone with fat fingers, not a lot of room
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on December 06, 2020, 09:10:03 AM

Anyone use this in interface mode? I can't get any of my DAWs to recognize it as an input device.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on December 06, 2020, 12:28:46 PM

Anyone use this in interface mode? I can't get any of my DAWs to recognize it as an input device.

have you selected the proper mode in the menu? (pg 141)

https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F6_04.pdf
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on December 07, 2020, 07:51:32 PM
Anyone use this in interface mode? I can't get any of my DAWs to recognize it as an input device.
have you selected the proper mode in the menu? (pg 141)
https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F6_04.pdf

I tried both modes in the menu and several programs (Wavelab, Reaper and CD Wave Editor) and it didn't show up as a device in any of them. I don't "podcast" per se but I would like to be able to use interface with loopback mode to add some dialog to my Mixlr stream when I do my Straight from Tape broadcasts when I'm doing transfers of old or rare stuff.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on December 08, 2020, 04:33:53 AM
hmm that’s strange. work for me on win 7.

you sure that usb cable is good? do you have any other usb-c data devices?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: fguidry on December 09, 2020, 11:42:11 AM

Anyone use this in interface mode? I can't get any of my DAWs to recognize it as an input device.

Working here, Win 10 and REAPER. Downloaded and installed latest Zoom drivers??

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f6/f6-support/

Fran
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on December 12, 2020, 09:54:22 AM
Anyone use this in interface mode? I can't get any of my DAWs to recognize it as an input device.
Working here, Win 10 and REAPER. Downloaded and installed latest Zoom drivers??
https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f6/f6-support/
Fran

I did a fresh install of all the drivers and updated the firmware to the latest version. I can see the device in Reaper and Wavelab but I'm still getting errors. I'll come back to it later and see if I can figure it out. I don't have a lot of time to do my Mixlr broadcasts right now anyway work is kicking my ass.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 15, 2021, 05:15:32 PM
 :alert: Big news! Zoom released firmware version 1.70 on 5/12/21 (https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f6/f6-support/). Item number 2 from the release notes why this is big news:

Quote
Version 1.70
・ Released as the following bug fixes in May 2021
1. The internal timecode sometimes gains one frame when an external timecode is disconnected while
the timecode is set to “Ext mode” or “Ext Auto Rec mode”.
2. Improved low frequency characteristics of the filter used for internal processing.

The low-frequency noise is what has kept the F6 from being full-on "pro" in the specs department. If this firmware lowers that noise down to the level where it is for the rest of the spectrum, then we can finally call the F6 a professional-level recorder.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jerryfreak on May 15, 2021, 05:26:02 PM
nice... i asked a few weeks back and they didnt have a release date. Lets rerun our tests with official FW and post em up!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 18, 2021, 02:55:37 PM
OK, here are my test results from RMAA with both the 1.50 and 1.70 firmware.

- RMAA generated a 32-bit FP / 192 kHz test file
- Connected MOTU M2 line out to F6 channels 1&2 with balanced TRS>XLR patch cables
- M2 output level set to max
- Played test file in Foobar while recording on F6 at 32-bit float / 192 kHz
- Recorded file from F6 transferred to PC and analyzed in RMAA to generate report
- These tests were NOT done in the same sitting, but conditions were identical


When looking at the Frequency Response data, make sure you scroll down to compare the 20 Hz - 20 kHz numbers in both documents, and not just the 40 Hz - 15 kHz numbers.

I find it curious that the noise floor in the new firmware is a bit higher, when performance is otherwise improved in other areas, especially the LF noise. I suppose there are always tradeoffs when choosing filters.
PDF files are below.

F6 1.50 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbtxjgz04bvrewg/F6_150_32fp192_potMAX.pdf?dl=0)
F6 1.70 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/688lefvj0a4iqpy/F6_170_32fp192_potMAX.pdf?dl=0)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on May 20, 2021, 01:16:11 PM
I am really glad to see Zoom does something with the remarks adressed by customers/tapers from this site. I did the update, wondering if it is really audible? Playback sound seems slightly smoother, but that may only be present in my ears  :).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on May 20, 2021, 04:02:23 PM
I am really glad to see Zoom does something with the remarks adressed by customers/tapers from this site. I did the update, wondering if it is really audible? Playback sound seems slightly smoother, but that may only be present in my ears  :).

The rising low-frequency noise was well below audibility to start with. I suppose if you recorded something in 32-bit float that was extremely quiet and then boosted the levels by 50 dB or so in post you might notice it, but that's an unlikely scenario.

Still, it was a clear problem and I'm glad it could be fixed by adjusting a digital filter, and wasn't some sort of hardware problem.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voodoostrat on June 10, 2021, 02:18:58 PM
Question - I bought one last week. I’ve been trying to dial it in for the last few days. This morning I noticed that on track 5 & 6 (set to line) that the knob on #5 was controlling both 5 & 6. I can’t figure how to have adjustments to the separate channels.  I have linked those 2 channels to stereo. I know it’s probably something simple but I can’t figure it out.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 10, 2021, 06:18:31 PM
Question - I bought one last week. I’ve been trying to dial it in for the last few days. This morning I noticed that on track 5 & 6 (set to line) that the knob on #5 was controlling both 5 & 6. I can’t figure how to have adjustments to the separate channels.  I have linked those 2 channels to stereo. I know it’s probably something simple but I can’t figure it out.

Thanks!

MENU > INPUT > TRIM LINK

See the manual, pg, 101.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on June 10, 2021, 09:52:18 PM

MENU > INPUT > TRIM LINK

See the manual, pg, 101.

Your answer got me thinking, and I am away from my decks and rusty with my knowledge right now, but if the knobs on the F6 are not gain, but fader, and gain is set automatically, does having those faders not balanced with each other affect the actual recorded tracks? On the one hand no, nor does it matter because you can balance in post, but does it affect the actual recorded gain levels used by the recorder if the faders are not balanced?

I know we tend to still think of those knobs as affecting gain, but that is not the case even if it feels like it does.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 11, 2021, 06:46:51 AM

MENU > INPUT > TRIM LINK

See the manual, pg, 101.

Your answer got me thinking, and I am away from my decks and rusty with my knowledge right now, but if the knobs on the F6 are not gain, but fader, and gain is set automatically, does having those faders not balanced with each other affect the actual recorded tracks? On the one hand no, nor does it matter because you can balance in post, but does it affect the actual recorded gain levels used by the recorder if the faders are not balanced?

I know we tend to still think of those knobs as affecting gain, but that is not the case even if it feels like it does.

Even though gain may be fixed, recording levels are not. Depending on your recording mode (linear vs. float), those knobs could be adjusting individual channel input trims (post-ADC), the individual ISO track recorded levels sent to the SD card, or acting as faders for the stereo downmix. (I'm differentiating between "recorded levels" and "faders" here, because faders are the last adjustment you make before going out to your main mix.)

Check out the block diagrams in the manual on pp. 193-198. I always use 32-bit float mode, and I have my knobs set to adjust "Rec Level" as described on pg. 194. Keeping them at the default "Reference Level" is useless to me, because I never use the stereo downmix, and this way at least I could adjust ISO track levels if I wanted to. Of course, in 32-bit float mode with the multi-ADC setup this recorder uses, adjusting levels isn't really necessary, but I like to watch the meters dance.  8)

So, what all of that means is that you will absolutely be recording different levels on your individual channels if your individual track knobs are set differently. That would be true no matter what mode the recorder is set up in. This is why I have my input trims all linked in pairs.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 11, 2021, 09:02:37 AM
Echoing what voltronic posted above.. You can use the menu to set the channel knobs to perform various functions, and you can adjust recording trim in various ways either with or without using those knobs. 

I use an F8 rather than F6, other than lacking 32bit float recording capability its usage is very similar.  As a practical way of achieving the functionality I desire this is what I do:

Set it up so that while recording the individual channel knobs act as faders controlling the stereo-mix/monitor-output.  I do that simply as a way of disabling the channel knobs from affecting recording trim since the knobs are very susceptible to accidental mis-adjustment.  Instead I adjust recording trim via the menu knob by selecting the channel on the display.  Doing that requires a press of the menu knob to select/deselect each channel or linked group of channels, eliminating the potential for accidental adjustment. 

Upon achieving an appropriate trim balance between the first stereo pair of channels I link their trims (MENU > INPUT > TRIM LINK) so that they can be further adjusted as necessary in unison without changing the balance between them.  I then proceed to do the same for each additional stereo pair. 

At that point I either leave it like that, with the ability to quickly select and adjust any pair and make a trim adjustment separate from the others, or I go (MENU > INPUT > TRIM LINK) and link all of the channels together so that I can adjust them simultaneously with a single knob-turn while retaining relative balance.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 11, 2021, 09:50:33 AM
More detail than you need-
I never use the channel knobs, and would be happiest if they weren't even there.  I do use the recorder for playback, and have it set so that in playback mode those knobs do nothing, adjusting fader level to the mix using the menu knob in the same way as adjusting trim while recording. 

The only significance of the channel knobs for me is their control over the stereo-mix while recording. I don't record the stereo mix, so that is only relevant for me in two ways:
1) if I am patching out to someone while recording.
2) when playing back, the initial stereo-mix fader balance carries over from whatever it was set at while recording.

The second is annoying because those knobs end up being set randomly instead of meaningfully.  If the fader levels were locked as well during recording this would not be an issue.

As it is I'd rather it revert to a flat zero'ed-out fader balance across all channels prior to the initial playback of the recorded fileset, or a specific saved fader position that doesn't change with each recording.  I do like that it automatically saves and recalls fader positions with each subsequent playback however, as that reflects any playback adjustments I make specific to the recording.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on June 11, 2021, 12:06:29 PM


Even though gain may be fixed, recording levels are not. Depending on your recording mode (linear vs. float), those knobs could be adjusting individual channel input trims (post-ADC), the individual ISO track recorded levels sent to the SD card, or acting as faders for the stereo downmix. (I'm differentiating between "recorded levels" and "faders" here, because faders are the last adjustment you make before going out to your main mix.)

Check out the block diagrams in the manual on pp. 193-198. I always use 32-bit float mode, and I have my knobs set to adjust "Rec Level" as described on pg. 194. Keeping them at the default "Reference Level" is useless to me, because I never use the stereo downmix, and this way at least I could adjust ISO track levels if I wanted to. Of course, in 32-bit float mode with the multi-ADC setup this recorder uses, adjusting levels isn't really necessary, but I like to watch the meters dance.  8)

So, what all of that means is that you will absolutely be recording different levels on your individual channels if your individual track knobs are set differently. That would be true no matter what mode the recorder is set up in. This is why I have my input trims all linked in pairs.

Great information from both you and Gutbucket. Really good and informative which I was hoping could be supplied. I am in a different city right now than my F6, and cannot recall if I knew that I could make the changes noted above. I did read the manual as I always really enjoy the discoveries that come from reading the manual, but I do not remember and won't know until I return home. I'm really curious to see how my settings are done and if I was unaware, this is even better, but if I just forgot (as happens more and more now that I am about to turn 66), this still is a great refresher. The one benefit to a bad memory is the constant re-discovery of exciting known and forgotten facts. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 11, 2021, 01:26:08 PM
Truth!  Thank goodness for the memory recall of friends!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on June 11, 2021, 08:25:29 PM
Truth!  Thank goodness for the memory recall of friends!

+1 to that.

Gut - I know it doesn't have enough channels for your use, but the F6 knobs are quite stiff, and do not move unless you really want them to. I actually never checked to see if the hold function locks them or not. Perhaps Zoom will eventually come out with a revision to the F8 that has knobs with more resistance.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voodoostrat on June 13, 2021, 03:02:00 PM
Question - I bought one last week. I’ve been trying to dial it in for the last few days. This morning I noticed that on track 5 & 6 (set to line) that the knob on #5 was controlling both 5 & 6. I can’t figure how to have adjustments to the separate channels.  I have linked those 2 channels to stereo. I know it’s probably something simple but I can’t figure it out.

Thanks!

MENU > INPUT > TRIM LINK

See the manual, pg, 101.

Thanks, Volt

So while attempting to figure out why the knobs were not gain controls I ended up screwing up any successful settings that I had accomplished. Prior to messing things up I actually had the deck producing sets of paired files ... Tracks 1&2 (48v) and tracks 5&6 (Line in). Well that all went away, it took me a couple of days to retrace the steps I took to get the files that say "Take". That was a major relief for me. I documented all the steps I took because apparently my brain fails to remember anything anymore. The last couple of days I started messing with the 32 Float and 32/24 settings. I am still confused which way to go on the 24/32 when it offers 'Linear or Float', so far I have stuck to Float. I will keep messing with gain settings for the 48v channels. I have Los Lobos this coming Friday, I am planning to run the Beyers on the Zoom as well as a pair of AT 853s. I will run my Schoeps via my old rig MK4's > Tinybox > one of my Sonys, at least for peace of mind.

Also thanks to the rest of you for chiming in on my question.   
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on June 14, 2021, 09:36:59 AM
Gut - I know it doesn't have enough channels for your use, but the F6 knobs are quite stiff, and do not move unless you really want them to. I actually never checked to see if the hold function locks them or not. Perhaps Zoom will eventually come out with a revision to the F8 that has knobs with more resistance.

Perhaps stiffer knobs were implemented on the F6 based on feedback from F8 users. 

What might work for me is to set the hold-function to lock only the channel knobs (I don't otherwise use hold on this recorder because its a key-combo rather than a dedicated hardware hold-switch), and switch it on after confirming that all fader knobs are set to unity, although I may need to go through that routine at the start of each recording.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on August 29, 2021, 07:05:53 PM
OK, here are my test results from RMAA with both the 1.50 and 1.70 firmware.

- RMAA generated a 32-bit FP / 192 kHz test file
- Connected MOTU M2 line out to F6 channels 1&2 with balanced TRS>XLR patch cables
- M2 output level set to max
- Played test file in Foobar while recording on F6 at 32-bit float / 192 kHz
- Recorded file from F6 transferred to PC and analyzed in RMAA to generate report
- These tests were NOT done in the same sitting, but conditions were identical


When looking at the Frequency Response data, make sure you scroll down to compare the 20 Hz - 20 kHz numbers in both documents, and not just the 40 Hz - 15 kHz numbers.

I find it curious that the noise floor in the new firmware is a bit higher, when performance is otherwise improved in other areas, especially the LF noise. I suppose there are always tradeoffs when choosing filters.
PDF files are below.

F6 1.50 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbtxjgz04bvrewg/F6_150_32fp192_potMAX.pdf?dl=0)
F6 1.70 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/688lefvj0a4iqpy/F6_170_32fp192_potMAX.pdf?dl=0)

Bumping this post for the people in the market for a new deck. The F6 can now truly be considered a professional recorder with the latest firmware, and IMHO it represents a much better value than the SD MixPre-II recorders. The only thing the MPII's have the advantage in is accepting a hotter input level, which in practice will not be an issue unless you are feeding it VERY hot line levels or recording very loud sources with extremely sensitive mics.

You won't be disappointed with one of these.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Chris K on August 31, 2021, 07:51:34 PM

Bumping this post for the people in the market for a new deck. The F6 can now truly be considered a professional recorder with the latest firmware, and IMHO it represents a much better value than the SD MixPre-II recorders. The only thing the MPII's have the advantage in is accepting a hotter input level, which in practice will not be an issue unless you are feeding it VERY hot line levels or recording very loud sources with extremely sensitive mics.

You won't be disappointed with one of these.

So I've been looking at this deck as an upgrade to a tascam 70D...what would be the benefits in favor for the F6 over the 70D that would justify the cost? I only require max 4 channels max at a top end of 24/48 as a field recorder. Thanks. Chris K.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 02, 2021, 09:27:18 PM

Bumping this post for the people in the market for a new deck. The F6 can now truly be considered a professional recorder with the latest firmware, and IMHO it represents a much better value than the SD MixPre-II recorders. The only thing the MPII's have the advantage in is accepting a hotter input level, which in practice will not be an issue unless you are feeding it VERY hot line levels or recording very loud sources with extremely sensitive mics.

You won't be disappointed with one of these.

So I've been looking at this deck as an upgrade to a tascam 70D...what would be the benefits in favor for the F6 over the 70D that would justify the cost? I only require max 4 channels max at a top end of 24/48 as a field recorder. Thanks. Chris K.

As someone who used to own the DR-70D, I can tell you the F6 is a huge upgrade in every aspect. The preamps of the F6 are far more transparent, much lower noise, the build quality is much higher, 6 XLR inputs instead of 4, more versatile powering options, timecode, etc. The "killer feature" is the 32-bit FP recording with multiple ADCs, so you never need to set levels or worry about limiters (in 99% of applications). Whether or not all that is worth the price depends on what you are recording.

For me, I only do acoustic / classical ensembles; very limited PA if at all. Mostly choirs, piano, and small instrumental groups, but sometimes orchestras and concert bands also. The preamps make a very noticeable difference for me, but it's the multi-ADC / 32FP end of things that makes my life so much easier. Most of the music I record has a very wide dynamic range, and I sometimes am not able to set levels ahead of time at a rehearsal. I am very often performing or conducting the things I record, making this even more reassuring. On the 70D, I would deal with this by recording a second set of safety tracks at -12 dB, but then that would limit me to 2-channel recording. Limiters (especially the type used on the 70D) sound awful for the type of music I record so that's a no-go. No need to worry about any of that with the F6.

If you are recording loud, amplified concerts and do not need more than 4 mic inputs then there probably isn't much reason to move on from your 70D. It's a solid deck.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: edsunman on September 14, 2021, 10:35:37 AM
Hi guys, I hope this is the right place on the forum for this...

I've just recently noticed a problem with my F6 not switching between Line and Mic level on the first 3 inputs. I've installed latest firmware and performed factory reset but no change.

Here is and example of the problem : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEIl7LL-Zyk

The problem persists in both 24 bit and 32 bit modes.

Can anyone work out what is going on? Have I missed an obvious setting or is the device faulty? Thanks in advance for any help!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 14, 2021, 09:32:26 PM
Hi guys, I hope this is the right place on the forum for this...

I've just recently noticed a problem with my F6 not switching between Line and Mic level on the first 3 inputs. I've installed latest firmware and performed factory reset but no change.

Here is and example of the problem : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEIl7LL-Zyk

The problem persists in both 24 bit and 32 bit modes.

Can anyone work out what is going on? Have I missed an obvious setting or is the device faulty? Thanks in advance for any help!

That is really strange. I'm out for a few days, but maybe this weekend I'll hook up a line source to mine and see if I can replicate the issue. Hopefully Zoom support has some advice for you.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 19, 2021, 10:09:20 AM
Anyone having trouble with the date and time not being retained during power off? I have noticed this to be an issue since the 1.70 firmware update, but it's possible it was there beforehand.

I have fully charged AA's internal and fully charged NP batteries mounted, and it still prompts me to reset the date and time at each power up. All other settings I have made are retained.

I sent a support email to Zoom, but in the meantime I was wondering if anyone else has seen this issue.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 20, 2021, 07:52:07 PM
Anyone having trouble with the date and time not being retained during power off? I have noticed this to be an issue since the 1.70 firmware update, but it's possible it was there beforehand.

I have fully charged AA's internal and fully charged NP batteries mounted, and it still prompts me to reset the date and time at each power up. All other settings I have made are retained.

I sent a support email to Zoom, but in the meantime I was wondering if anyone else has seen this issue.

Response from Zoom customer support:

Quote
I would recommend plugging your device with the AC adapter and powering it ON. Once this is done, leave it like this overnight.

This should resolve the issue you are experiencing.

We will see what happens.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 23, 2021, 05:31:39 PM
^ Rep's advice worked. All good.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Karl on October 06, 2021, 10:09:26 PM
OK, here are my test results from RMAA with both the 1.50 and 1.70 firmware.

- RMAA generated a 32-bit FP / 192 kHz test file
- Connected MOTU M2 line out to F6 channels 1&2 with balanced TRS>XLR patch cables
- M2 output level set to max
- Played test file in Foobar while recording on F6 at 32-bit float / 192 kHz
- Recorded file from F6 transferred to PC and analyzed in RMAA to generate report
- These tests were NOT done in the same sitting, but conditions were identical


When looking at the Frequency Response data, make sure you scroll down to compare the 20 Hz - 20 kHz numbers in both documents, and not just the 40 Hz - 15 kHz numbers.

I find it curious that the noise floor in the new firmware is a bit higher, when performance is otherwise improved in other areas, especially the LF noise. I suppose there are always tradeoffs when choosing filters.
PDF files are below.

F6 1.50 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mbtxjgz04bvrewg/F6_150_32fp192_potMAX.pdf?dl=0)
F6 1.70 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/688lefvj0a4iqpy/F6_170_32fp192_potMAX.pdf?dl=0)

Bumping this post for the people in the market for a new deck. The F6 can now truly be considered a professional recorder with the latest firmware, and IMHO it represents a much better value than the SD MixPre-II recorders. The only thing the MPII's have the advantage in is accepting a hotter input level, which in practice will not be an issue unless you are feeding it VERY hot line levels or recording very loud sources with extremely sensitive mics.

You won't be disappointed with one of these.

Thank you for your work on this! Good stuff!

I was also having the date/time issue. Good to know as well.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 07, 2021, 08:55:26 PM
I was also having the date/time issue. Good to know as well.

There must be some sort of rechargeable battery on the main board that keeps the clock running, like a CMOS battery on a PC. I would have thought it would replenish as needed from internal AAs or the NP batteries, but apparently it only recharges from USB.

My earlier comment about all the other settings being retained now makes sense in retrospect: Those settings are not stored in internal memory, but in a file on the SD card.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Karl on October 08, 2021, 11:20:25 AM
Yep! Or more likely a capacitor that needs to be refilled every so often. It would be nice to know how long it needs to be on when powering from USB (more specific than "overnight!"). And how long it should last before being refilled again.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: morst on October 08, 2021, 02:29:48 PM

Sony PCM-M10 does the same thing if you leave it powered off for a year or more!
The internal clock won't stay set until you leave it powered up for a while.



Anyone having trouble with the date and time not being retained during power off? I have noticed this to be an issue since the 1.70 firmware update, but it's possible it was there beforehand.

I have fully charged AA's internal and fully charged NP batteries mounted, and it still prompts me to reset the date and time at each power up. All other settings I have made are retained.

I sent a support email to Zoom, but in the meantime I was wondering if anyone else has seen this issue.

Response from Zoom customer support:

Quote
I would recommend plugging your device with the AC adapter and powering it ON. Once this is done, leave it like this overnight.

This should resolve the issue you are experiencing.

We will see what happens.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 09, 2021, 08:42:36 AM
Yep! Or more likely a capacitor that needs to be refilled every so often. It would be nice to know how long it needs to be on when powering from USB (more specific than "overnight!"). And how long it should last before being refilled again.

Funny how this wasn't an issue at all until the pandemic and I had no concerts to record for over a year. I always leave my SD card in my unit, and connect the F6 to my PC to transfer files after a concert. Perhaps those brief periods of connection to USB were enough to charge the battery or capacitor. When I had no recordings to transfer, I had no reason to connect the F6 for long periods of time.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on February 24, 2022, 02:31:42 AM
Hi everyone. I am new in the community and hoping for your help!
I switched from a mixpre 10 ii to a zoom f6 due to size and weight.
Unfortunately I get audio jumps in my recordings when using dual record 32 bit and 24 bit - six channel recording without the mix.
Audio is shifted about a minute from then on, and stays out of sync until the next file is created and cannot be synced via timecode anymore.
There has been no warning in the recorder while recording, you can only see it when you try to sync the files.
Did this happen to anyone else?
I have five sandisk extreme pro cards - four 128gb and one 256gb - all of them v30.
They work fine for recording UHD Video with 100mbit so i thought they will work in the f6 as well.
I tested them on my mac with F3X swift and they worked all fine, but in the full test in the f6 they all failed.
Now I ordered a Lexar Professional 1667x 128gb v60 and its exactly the same: It fails the full test in the recorder.
Does this happen to anyone else?
Did anyone have those audio jumps and did anyone try those cards in a test?
Very similar cards are in the recommended card lists of zoom and those cards can be purchased in a bundle with the recorder, so I guess they should be fine.
And: Can the Zoom take advantage of UHS II cards?
Does the cards reader support UHS II?
Even the Lexar v60 UHS II seems to run at about 33 percent of maximum write speed most of the time in the test until it fails - just like the sandisk v30 UHS I.
So I guess write speed is about the same in the recorder and there is a problem with the sd card reader of the recorder.
Did anyone experience the same???
Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on February 24, 2022, 06:34:25 PM
Hi everyone. I am new in the community and hoping for your help!
I switched from a mixpre 10 ii to a zoom f6 due to size and weight.
Unfortunately I get audio jumps in my recordings when using dual record 32 bit and 24 bit - six channel recording without the mix.
Audio is shifted about a minute from then on, and stays out of sync until the next file is created and cannot be synced via timecode anymore.
There has been no warning in the recorder while recording, you can only see it when you try to sync the files.
Did this happen to anyone else?
I have five sandisk extreme pro cards - four 128gb and one 256gb - all of them v30.
They work fine for recording UHD Video with 100mbit so i thought they will work in the f6 as well.
I tested them on my mac with F3X swift and they worked all fine, but in the full test in the f6 they all failed.
Now I ordered a Lexar Professional 1667x 128gb v60 and its exactly the same: It fails the full test in the recorder.
Does this happen to anyone else?
Did anyone have those audio jumps and did anyone try those cards in a test?
Very similar cards are in the recommended card lists of zoom and those cards can be purchased in a bundle with the recorder, so I guess they should be fine.
And: Can the Zoom take advantage of UHS II cards?
Does the cards reader support UHS II?
Even the Lexar v60 UHS II seems to run at about 33 percent of maximum write speed most of the time in the test until it fails - just like the sandisk v30 UHS I.
So I guess write speed is about the same in the recorder and there is a problem with the sd card reader of the recorder.
Did anyone experience the same???
Thanks for your help!

Hi there! I have never heard of this problem, but my advice is to return what you have bought, and only use cards Zoom have tested and approved for use in the F6. Make sure the model numbers match exactly. These cards get revised all the time, and the "same" card from a different production run will not necessarily test the same.
https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F6_compatible_cards_E_0.pdf (https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F6_compatible_cards_E_0.pdf)

You cannot go by any of the ratings on SD cards, because audio-only recorders such as these do not write data to these cards in quick bursts as photo/video devices do. If they did, the memory buffers for recording would have to be massive.

This is the card I bought with my F6, and I have had zero issues over 2+ years. I have not ever used the dual recording format mode, however I have done 6 channels of 32-bit FP with no problems.
It's no longer available on Amazon, but you may be able to find it elsewhere.
https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY)

EDIT: I am actually having trouble finding any of the cards listed on the Zoom F6 tested list in stock. It's about time they updated this list.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on February 25, 2022, 05:53:21 AM
Thanks for your help!
Its hard to find where to get this cards with exactly this model number as the model numbers mostly arent listed on amazon.
But from the pictures I see when I google the model number, all of my six cards should be in the approved list.
It should be four SDSDXPA-128G one SDSDXPA-256G and one LSD128CB1667.
There is a Facebook Post with exactly the same issue:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zoomf8/posts/2964024483909364/
I have received a replacement units and all my cards fail as well, so I guess its a batch with defect card readers..

Hi everyone. I am new in the community and hoping for your help!
I switched from a mixpre 10 ii to a zoom f6 due to size and weight.
Unfortunately I get audio jumps in my recordings when using dual record 32 bit and 24 bit - six channel recording without the mix.
Audio is shifted about a minute from then on, and stays out of sync until the next file is created and cannot be synced via timecode anymore.
There has been no warning in the recorder while recording, you can only see it when you try to sync the files.
Did this happen to anyone else?
I have five sandisk extreme pro cards - four 128gb and one 256gb - all of them v30.
They work fine for recording UHD Video with 100mbit so i thought they will work in the f6 as well.
I tested them on my mac with F3X swift and they worked all fine, but in the full test in the f6 they all failed.
Now I ordered a Lexar Professional 1667x 128gb v60 and its exactly the same: It fails the full test in the recorder.
Does this happen to anyone else?
Did anyone have those audio jumps and did anyone try those cards in a test?
Very similar cards are in the recommended card lists of zoom and those cards can be purchased in a bundle with the recorder, so I guess they should be fine.
And: Can the Zoom take advantage of UHS II cards?
Does the cards reader support UHS II?
Even the Lexar v60 UHS II seems to run at about 33 percent of maximum write speed most of the time in the test until it fails - just like the sandisk v30 UHS I.
So I guess write speed is about the same in the recorder and there is a problem with the sd card reader of the recorder.
Did anyone experience the same???
Thanks for your help!

Hi there! I have never heard of this problem, but my advice is to return what you have bought, and only use cards Zoom have tested and approved for use in the F6. Make sure the model numbers match exactly. These cards get revised all the time, and the "same" card from a different production run will not necessarily test the same.
https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F6_compatible_cards_E_0.pdf (https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F6_compatible_cards_E_0.pdf)

You cannot go by any of the ratings on SD cards, because audio-only recorders such as these do not write data to these cards in quick bursts as photo/video devices do. If they did, the memory buffers for recording would have to be massive.

This is the card I bought with my F6, and I have had zero issues over 2+ years. I have not ever used the dual recording format mode, however I have done 6 channels of 32-bit FP with no problems.
It's no longer available on Amazon, but you may be able to find it elsewhere.
https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Canvas-128GB-UHS-I100MB-SDR/dp/B079H4ZVWY)

EDIT: I am actually having trouble finding any of the cards listed on the Zoom F6 tested list in stock. It's about time they updated this list.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on February 25, 2022, 03:54:44 PM
Tried out some old cheap cards. The only ones that pass the full test are the 16 gb ones. All other cards are 64 gb and more and fail. So I guess it must be overheating because of the long test routine.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on February 25, 2022, 04:25:22 PM
This is a random, somewhat related question. I recorded a band last night, 3 channels at 32/48 on a 64GB card. I left the recorder running for 4 hours straight. I was surprised to see that the F6 Split the files after 3 hours or so. Is there a max file size or something I do not know about with the F6? I was going to pull up the manual, but this thread was right here and relevant. Thanks-Marc
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on February 26, 2022, 06:39:53 AM


Funny how this wasn't an issue at all until the pandemic and I had no concerts to record for over a year.

I'm kind of fortunate that my recording days were over well before the pandemic hit, and thus I wasn't suddenly "gigless" like that.  Given that recordings of the kind you seem to do were my only source of income, I would have been up the creek sans paddle.  You have my sympathies!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on February 26, 2022, 07:41:54 AM
This is a random, somewhat related question. I recorded a band last night, 3 channels at 32/48 on a 64GB card. I left the recorder running for 4 hours straight. I was surprised to see that the F6 Split the files after 3 hours or so. Is there a max file size or something I do not know about with the F6? I was going to pull up the manual, but this thread was right here and relevant. Thanks-Marc

The WAV format is limited to 2 GB. Should be 4, but the thread below explains why in practice it's usually 2:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0 (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on February 26, 2022, 07:43:17 AM
Tried out some old cheap cards. The only ones that pass the full test are the 16 gb ones. All other cards are 64 gb and more and fail. So I guess it must be overheating because of the long test routine.

Even just the card test built into the F6 software fails? Nothing should be overheating in that case.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on February 26, 2022, 01:12:34 PM
Tried out some old cheap cards. The only ones that pass the full test are the 16 gb ones. All other cards are 64 gb and more and fail. So I guess it must be overheating because of the long test routine.

Even just the card test built into the F6 software fails? Nothing should be overheating in that case.

So what else?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on February 26, 2022, 02:50:27 PM
This is a random, somewhat related question. I recorded a band last night, 3 channels at 32/48 on a 64GB card. I left the recorder running for 4 hours straight. I was surprised to see that the F6 Split the files after 3 hours or so. Is there a max file size or something I do not know about with the F6? I was going to pull up the manual, but this thread was right here and relevant. Thanks-Marc

The WAV format is limited to 2 GB. Should be 4, but the thread below explains why in practice it's usually 2:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0 (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0)

Ahh, I had a mix pre and It didn't do that I don't think, but I think the error on my thinking is that the folder size is gigantic, but the individual track sizes in the folder is what determines the split point. I have had Tascams, do the 2GB split, which I hate, but it was 2 tracks making up that file size. In this case I am getting ISO's. Thanks
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on February 27, 2022, 10:02:38 AM
Tried out some old cheap cards. The only ones that pass the full test are the 16 gb ones. All other cards are 64 gb and more and fail. So I guess it must be overheating because of the long test routine.

Even just the card test built into the F6 software fails? Nothing should be overheating in that case.

So what else?

No idea. I would take it to Zoom tech support.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on February 27, 2022, 12:06:20 PM
This is a random, somewhat related question. I recorded a band last night, 3 channels at 32/48 on a 64GB card. I left the recorder running for 4 hours straight. I was surprised to see that the F6 Split the files after 3 hours or so. Is there a max file size or something I do not know about with the F6? I was going to pull up the manual, but this thread was right here and relevant. Thanks-Marc

The WAV format is limited to 2 GB. Should be 4, but the thread below explains why in practice it's usually 2:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0 (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0)

Ahh, I had a mix pre and It didn't do that I don't think, but I think the error on my thinking is that the folder size is gigantic, but the individual track sizes in the folder is what determines the split point. I have had Tascams, do the 2GB split, which I hate, but it was 2 tracks making up that file size. In this case I am getting ISO's. Thanks

I had a mixpre 10 ii and it split files as well.
Not a problem at all. In fact by the way it could add security in case a file gets corrupt.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on February 28, 2022, 09:56:30 AM
This is a random, somewhat related question. I recorded a band last night, 3 channels at 32/48 on a 64GB card. I left the recorder running for 4 hours straight. I was surprised to see that the F6 Split the files after 3 hours or so. Is there a max file size or something I do not know about with the F6? I was going to pull up the manual, but this thread was right here and relevant. Thanks-Marc

The WAV format is limited to 2 GB. Should be 4, but the thread below explains why in practice it's usually 2:

https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0 (https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php?topic=32422.0)

Ahh, I had a mix pre and It didn't do that I don't think, but I think the error on my thinking is that the folder size is gigantic, but the individual track sizes in the folder is what determines the split point. I have had Tascams, do the 2GB split, which I hate, but it was 2 tracks making up that file size. In this case I am getting ISO's. Thanks

Remember the size of a WAV file is determined by the number of channels interleaved in it as well as the bit-depth and sample rate. As single channel files, ISO's will run twice as long before reaching the size limit and starting a new file in comparison to a stereo WAV recorded at the same bit-depth and rate, and six times as long as a 6 channel WAV.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on February 28, 2022, 02:48:11 PM
The maximum file size for WAV is 4GB; the MixPre series automatically splits files at that point. So, as Gutbucket points out, the amount of time depends on the number of channels, sampling frequency and bit-depth. Incidentally, other recorders also split at 4 GB, such as the Marantz PMD620 and PMD661. And those came out a long time ago (maybe 15 years for the 620). I am pretty sure other devices also allow 4 GB WAVs.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on February 28, 2022, 04:21:05 PM
Thanks Everyone, I am used to only using 2 channels, and I never usually let a recorder run that long, but I have found that when you don't have to worry about levels at a 3 set 4 hour event, processing is less time consuming as one long file haha! atleast, that was my theory until this split came up at 3:06...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 04, 2022, 02:34:40 AM
Tried out some old cheap cards. The only ones that pass the full test are the 16 gb ones. All other cards are 64 gb and more and fail. So I guess it must be overheating because of the long test routine.

Even just the card test built into the F6 software fails? Nothing should be overheating in that case.

No idea. I would take it to Zoom tech support.

Zoom confirmed the issue. At least when using dual record in 24 plus 32 bit, audio can be skipping, so the recorder doesn’t work reliably. It’s crazy that they don’t warn their customers as a lot are using them professionally..
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 07, 2022, 02:51:19 AM
Zoom confirmed the issue. At least when using dual record in 24 plus 32 bit, audio can be skipping, so the recorder doesn’t work reliably. It’s crazy that they don’t warn their customers as a lot are using them professionally..

Is there any way to record 32 bit only and still keep a fixed trim-setting everytime you start recording?
Its annoying to set the levels again and again every time you start recording and then adjust the fader level again.
I know you can fix it in post - but most editing applications allow volume adjustments only to a certain extent.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 07, 2022, 01:02:31 PM
Don't want to confuse things as I don't know how similar F6 recording 32bit float is to F8 recording 24bit, but I deal with a similar situation with regards to monitor/mix levels on F8.  I generally keep input trims set the same recording to recording, and as a general starting point, I would like to have the monitor/mix levels remain set the same each time as well  ..and they are unless the channel input knobs are accidentally adjusted.  The problem is they are easily knocked, throwing off the monitor/mix for that and each subsequent recording until being readjusted again.  Fortunately this is mostly an annoyance, in that it is not effecting recorded levels.  Still its nice to avoid.

The best fix I've found is to set the lock-function to lock only the channel knobs (I also lock-out the slate-mic/test-tone switch) but none of the transport controls, menu button nor input knob.  I would leave them locked out all the time if I could, however, since the lock-function resets to unlocked upon power down, each time I power up I still need to manually check all the monitor/mix track knob positions prior to locking them down, but they then will remain unchanged during the recording session, and the monitor/mix levels stored with the files will reflect that desired generic starting point.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 12, 2022, 10:38:17 AM
Oh no! The same issue has just happened in 24 bit only recording. A lot of clips are completely out of sync!
No word from zoom, no answers to my mails anymore..

Zoom confirmed the issue. At least when using dual record in 24 plus 32 bit, audio can be skipping, so the recorder doesn’t work reliably. It’s crazy that they don’t warn their customers as a lot are using them professionally..

Is there any way to record 32 bit only and still keep a fixed trim-setting everytime you start recording?
Its annoying to set the levels again and again every time you start recording and then adjust the fader level again.
I know you can fix it in post - but most editing applications allow volume adjustments only to a certain extent.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: GLouie on March 12, 2022, 01:28:06 PM
I use the MixPre10ii, but note that SD specifically says not to use the Sandisk Extreme Pro, but the regular "Extreme" cards are fine (my tests confirm the Extreme works).

Perhaps the Zoom is also sensitive to whatever fails in the MixPres?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 12, 2022, 01:36:15 PM
Thanks! Thats strange, the Extreme Pro cards have always worked flawlessly on my Mixpre10ii - I reget having sold it..

I use the MixPre10ii, but note that SD specifically says not to use the Sandisk Extreme Pro, but the regular "Extreme" cards are fine (my tests confirm the Extreme works).

Perhaps the Zoom is also sensitive to whatever fails in the MixPres?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 12, 2022, 02:06:56 PM
.. and the pro cards are on their recommended list..
Still maybe I will order an extreme 64 gb just to be sure.

I use the MixPre10ii, but note that SD specifically says not to use the Sandisk Extreme Pro, but the regular "Extreme" cards are fine (my tests confirm the Extreme works).

Perhaps the Zoom is also sensitive to whatever fails in the MixPres?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 12, 2022, 02:16:53 PM
At first I was hoping that at least 16 gb cards work, but the forth "full performance tests" on the same card just failed. It seems like random read/write errors happen and the chance for them to happen is just slightly lower when the cards are smaller. On a 256 gb card the test fails every time at some point in time.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jbell on March 12, 2022, 03:02:21 PM
Yep, should have kept the Mixpre 10!!

Thanks! Thats strange, the Extreme Pro cards have always worked flawlessly on my Mixpre10ii - I reget having sold it..

I use the MixPre10ii, but note that SD specifically says not to use the Sandisk Extreme Pro, but the regular "Extreme" cards are fine (my tests confirm the Extreme works).

Perhaps the Zoom is also sensitive to whatever fails in the MixPres?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 12, 2022, 03:09:27 PM
Thats right, it was just to heavy for me. Double the weight of the zoom and then you need much more batteries or an external battery plus a larger bag..
It added up and I wasnt too quick on my feet anymore.
If you need exactly six xlr-inputs and six fader knobs theres not a lot options out there.

Yep, should have kept the Mixpre 10!!

Thanks! Thats strange, the Extreme Pro cards have always worked flawlessly on my Mixpre10ii - I reget having sold it..

I use the MixPre10ii, but note that SD specifically says not to use the Sandisk Extreme Pro, but the regular "Extreme" cards are fine (my tests confirm the Extreme works).

Perhaps the Zoom is also sensitive to whatever fails in the MixPres?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 12, 2022, 05:08:17 PM
At first I was hoping that at least 16 gb cards work, but the forth "full performance tests" on the same card just failed. It seems like random read/write errors happen and the chance for them to happen is just slightly lower when the cards are smaller. On a 256 gb card the test fails every time at some point in time.

I have said this before, maybe on this thread; maybe elsewhere:

Flash media manufacturers update production runs of these cards all the time, and even though they may have the same product names, that doesn't mean they will perform the same in audio recorders. Audio recorders write data to cards differently than the short bursts of data you get with photo or video.

You can only rely on cards that match the exact model numbers found in card tests from Zoom, SD. etc. Buying any old SanDisk Extreme just because there is one of those on a recorder's tested good list means nothing. If it's not the exact same model number, then it's not the same card internally, despite what the packaging says.

Zoom tells you as much on their card lists:
Quote
Note: The internal components of SDHC/SDXC cards are subject to change depending on
theirproduction period. In this case, we do not warrant their compatibility with the

The the really unfortunate thing is that when an audio recorder manufacturer does not continue to do tests on older units with newer cards, the customer is left taking shots in the dark. Zoom stopped testing cards for the F6, and SD only ever tested a few for the MixPre-II.

EDIT: If I needed a new SD card for my F6, I would be trying something from the F8n Pro card list (https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F8nPro_compatible_cards_E.pdf) (PDF). That doc is current as of March 2022, and the F8 should present a more demanding load for the media compared to the F6.

The updated version (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-128GB-Canvas-Select-SDS2/dp/B07YGZQ4DM?psc=1) of the Kingston 128 GB card I use is on the F8n Pro list. I would start there.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: GLouie on March 13, 2022, 01:04:28 PM
.. and the pro cards are on their recommended list..
Still maybe I will order an extreme 64 gb just to be sure.

I'm confused - the SD MixPre approved media list has the Sandisk Extreme Pro in the Unapproved Media list?

https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jbell on March 13, 2022, 02:10:18 PM
I have been using an Extreme pro in my Mixpre 10 II and haven't had problems.  I didn't realize it was on the unapproved list. 

.. and the pro cards are on their recommended list..
Still maybe I will order an extreme 64 gb just to be sure.

I'm confused - the SD MixPre approved media list has the Sandisk Extreme Pro in the Unapproved Media list?

https://www.sounddevices.com/mixpre-series-approved-media-list/
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 13, 2022, 04:08:44 PM
Thanks for all your help!
As I live in germany, I already orderes the SanDisk Ultra 64 GB.
Hope its the same model.

At first I was hoping that at least 16 gb cards work, but the forth "full performance tests" on the same card just failed. It seems like random read/write errors happen and the chance for them to happen is just slightly lower when the cards are smaller. On a 256 gb card the test fails every time at some point in time.

I have said this before, maybe on this thread; maybe elsewhere:

Flash media manufacturers update production runs of these cards all the time, and even though they may have the same product names, that doesn't mean they will perform the same in audio recorders. Audio recorders write data to cards differently than the short bursts of data you get with photo or video.

You can only rely on cards that match the exact model numbers found in card tests from Zoom, SD. etc. Buying any old SanDisk Extreme just because there is one of those on a recorder's tested good list means nothing. If it's not the exact same model number, then it's not the same card internally, despite what the packaging says.

Zoom tells you as much on their card lists:
Quote
Note: The internal components of SDHC/SDXC cards are subject to change depending on
theirproduction period. In this case, we do not warrant their compatibility with the

The the really unfortunate thing is that when an audio recorder manufacturer does not continue to do tests on older units with newer cards, the customer is left taking shots in the dark. Zoom stopped testing cards for the F6, and SD only ever tested a few for the MixPre-II.

EDIT: If I needed a new SD card for my F6, I would be trying something from the F8n Pro card list (https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F8nPro_compatible_cards_E.pdf) (PDF). That doc is current as of March 2022, and the F8 should present a more demanding load for the media compared to the F6.

The updated version (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-128GB-Canvas-Select-SDS2/dp/B07YGZQ4DM?psc=1) of the Kingston 128 GB card I use is on the F8n Pro list. I would start there.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 14, 2022, 01:16:03 PM
The brand new Sandisk Ultra 64 gb just arrived - failed the performance test as well..
Thanks for your help, its just getting a little too expensive to buy all these new cards to find out that the recorder just fails - I will give up.
Hope I can restore the old firmware and that will help.

EDIT: If I needed a new SD card for my F6, I would be trying something from the F8n Pro card list (https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/F8nPro_compatible_cards_E.pdf) (PDF). That doc is current as of March 2022, and the F8 should present a more demanding load for the media compared to the F6.
The updated version (https://www.amazon.com/Kingston-128GB-Canvas-Select-SDS2/dp/B07YGZQ4DM?psc=1) of the Kingston 128 GB card I use is on the F8n Pro list. I would start there.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 14, 2022, 05:28:33 PM
Bummer.  Somewhat surprised only because F8 (original) has never been picky about SD cards at all for me.  If the firmware restore doesn't do the trick you may need to return your F6 for another unit.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 14, 2022, 06:13:51 PM
Bummer.  Somewhat surprised only because F8 (original) has never been picky about SD cards at all for me.  If the firmware restore doesn't do the trick you may need to return your F6 for another unit.

I also am starting to think something may be wrong with your unit, either with the firmware or hardware itself.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 15, 2022, 04:04:15 AM
The problem is: It is already a replacement unit with the same problems.
I am afraid they changed the chipsets in the pandemic and all newer models are affected..
Or maybe its a firmware thing, I will try to find out how to get back to an older firmware version.
I cant believe how an audio recorder can destroy your recordings without any warnings on your display or audio.
You only notice the next day that everything is out of sync..

Bummer.  Somewhat surprised only because F8 (original) has never been picky about SD cards at all for me.  If the firmware restore doesn't do the trick you may need to return your F6 for another unit.

I also am starting to think something may be wrong with your unit, either with the firmware or hardware itself.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 15, 2022, 10:07:58 AM
A brand new Sandisk Extreme pro 32gb passed the test multiple times, then I got a brand new Sandisk Extreme Pro 64 gb and it immediately fails.
It seems like the F6 has problems with sdxc cards, while sdhc passes.
Unfortunately 32 gb will not get me through the day. Its 7 hours with all six channels activated.
So I will have to change cards when I keep the recorder running to sync later in post.
Thats very strange...
A lot of users reported they have absolutely no problems with larger SD extreme pro cards.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 15, 2022, 08:46:59 PM
A brand new Sandisk Extreme pro 32gb passed the test multiple times, then I got a brand new Sandisk Extreme Pro 64 gb and it immediately fails.
It seems like the F6 has problems with sdxc cards, while sdhc passes.
Unfortunately 32 gb will not get me through the day. Its 7 hours with all six channels activated.
So I will have to change cards when I keep the recorder running to sync later in post.
Thats very strange...
A lot of users reported they have absolutely no problems with larger SD extreme pro cards.

I just noticed something. Earlier you said "hope it's the same model" about the latest card you purchased. There is no need to hope; the part numbers should be clearly stated by your vendor. Please see my earlier post where I mentioned that unless you are using the same exact part numbers from those on the tested lists, then those cards are different internally (despite the same external branding). The branding of "Extreme Pro", "Ultra", etc. doesn't mean anything for this application. In this case, the only 64 GB SanDisk on the F8n Pro list (the newest Zoom tested list available) is SDSDUN4-064G-GN6IN.

I suspect that you may have not yet tried any cards that are on any of Zoom's approved lists. I know you have bought several cards already, but you need to try one of those cards first before thinking the new production run of F6 all have hardware problems. You may be correct, but let's minimize the variables.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 16, 2022, 06:58:20 AM
I just asked sandisk.
Most of my extreme pro cards are newer models: SDSDXXY-128G
Those Sandisk Model-Numbers are cards that were only available in Japan, as the last digits of the model number are region codes.
And they arent available today anymore. So basically its not possible to get a sandisk cards thats on the list today.

But the new Lexar I just bought is LSD128CB1667, which is on the list and it fails.
The only one that passes is the new Extreme Pro 32 gb - which is not on the list.
So maybe it has problems with SDXC - Cards.
I already ordered a Kingston-Card from the list - which is only available from amazon us.

I have never had problems with my cards on many differend cameras and audio recorders.
Its very strange that the zoom could be so picky about cards.
That would mean the recorder is useless, when all cards from the list arent available anymore?

This cannnot be possible, or they just built in a VERY cheap SD card reader..

A brand new Sandisk Extreme pro 32gb passed the test multiple times, then I got a brand new Sandisk Extreme Pro 64 gb and it immediately fails.
It seems like the F6 has problems with sdxc cards, while sdhc passes.
Unfortunately 32 gb will not get me through the day. Its 7 hours with all six channels activated.
So I will have to change cards when I keep the recorder running to sync later in post.
Thats very strange...
A lot of users reported they have absolutely no problems with larger SD extreme pro cards.

I just noticed something. Earlier you said "hope it's the same model" about the latest card you purchased. There is no need to hope; the part numbers should be clearly stated by your vendor. Please see my earlier post where I mentioned that unless you are using the same exact part numbers from those on the tested lists, then those cards are different internally (despite the same external branding). The branding of "Extreme Pro", "Ultra", etc. doesn't mean anything for this application. In this case, the only 64 GB SanDisk on the F8n Pro list (the newest Zoom tested list available) is SDSDUN4-064G-GN6IN.

I suspect that you may have not yet tried any cards that are on any of Zoom's approved lists. I know you have bought several cards already, but you need to try one of those cards first before thinking the new production run of F6 all have hardware problems. You may be correct, but let's minimize the variables.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 16, 2022, 07:02:36 AM
And a lot of other users report they can use almost any card and the test passes.
For example you can find a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS7gI3MibnQ
They must have changed some components.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 16, 2022, 11:01:33 AM
What has Zoom customer service been telling you?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 16, 2022, 11:04:07 AM
For the audio jumps they are working on a firmware update.
The failing performance tests could be another reason they dont know yet.


What has Zoom customer service been telling you?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 16, 2022, 11:07:38 AM
For the audio jumps they are working on a firmware update.
The failing performance tests could be another reason they dont know yet.


What has Zoom customer service been telling you?

OK, so they have at least acknowledged there is a problem.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 17, 2022, 07:49:31 AM
We tried to roll the firmware back but its not possible, because its a new replacement unit with new components. https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/news/spec_changes/
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on March 23, 2022, 10:56:23 AM
A new Kingston Canvas go 64gb sdg just arrived from the US, because its in the list.. failed. I give up - until now all SDXC cards failed - at least nine now. The only one working is SDHC. It must definitely be the recorder..
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SoundPete on April 08, 2022, 05:23:59 AM
New update for the zoom f6 - fixing audio jumps?
According to the description, it should fix the audio jumps while recording a lot of users are complaining about.
But there are already some posts, that audio still jumps during recording even after the update.
And this doesnt only happen in dual recording mode - as zoom claims.
At least my card performance tests dont fail anymore after the update.
Did this fix the problem for you?

https://zoomcorp.com/en/de/news/f6updatev18/

Bug Fixes

    Sound skips sometimes occur when recorded in Dual Mode.
    In rare cases, part of the metadata is saved incorrectly when recorded in Dual Mode.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on April 08, 2022, 09:19:48 AM
Random question while this thread is active. Is there a way to not record the LR mix down track with every recording? It's just a waste of space for me on the card. Otherwise, sill loving this recorder.

BTW, Sometime soon, I am going to be able to do a Mix Pre II vs F6 sound shootout, as I am going to have 2 pairs of AKG CK3X caps to run through Modded MK46's to PFA's, and a buddy of mine has a MP3 II. So we will 32 bit float both of them from the same spot and pattern, normalize them and post the full show to archive. Really curious to AB them.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on April 08, 2022, 12:18:20 PM
Random question while this thread is active. Is there a way to not record the LR mix down track with every recording? It's just a waste of space for me on the card. Otherwise, sill loving this recorder.
Yes. I have had my LR track disabled since day 1. See the user manual, pg. 36.

BTW, Sometime soon, I am going to be able to do a Mix Pre II vs F6 sound shootout, as I am going to have 2 pairs of AKG CK3X caps to run through Modded MK46's to PFA's, and a buddy of mine has a MP3 II. So we will 32 bit float both of them from the same spot and pattern, normalize them and post the full show to archive. Really curious to AB them.

Besides normalizing in post, you might want to try and set the MPII input gain to roughly match the levels you are getting on the F6 (fixed gain in 32FP mode). It might not matter at all, but it's possible that using more gain on the MPII would give you more of whatever "character" its preamps have.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on April 08, 2022, 04:17:58 PM
Got it turned off. Thanks. And yes, I was thinking the same, that we could possibly use a test tone on a stereo to match levels, then turn it up enough to bleed into float at the show? I don't think there are many comparisons out there, specially for the way we use the recorders.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on April 08, 2022, 04:47:02 PM
And yes, I was thinking the same, that we could possibly use a test tone on a stereo to match levels, then turn it up enough to bleed into float at the show?

That would just be adding a bunch of digital gain, I think. If you are interested in comparing the pres, maybe it would be better not to add any gain post ADC?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on April 09, 2022, 11:38:42 AM
Good thought, Pre's, ADC's so maybe just run 24/48 and run them like the old days?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on April 13, 2022, 10:42:10 AM
just run 24/48 like the old days

This made me laugh.  Time is relative!

This comp will be interesting to hear.  If possible, consider swapping the two recorders at set-break.  That way, even if the two AKG CK3X pairs aren't an extremely close match with each other (and this could quite easily represent the biggest perceptual difference in the comparison), listeners can better discern that particular influence by comparing set to set as well.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on April 16, 2022, 09:06:02 PM
Haha, I go back to taping in 96, so there is that.  Good idea on the set break swap. This might happen next weekend, if I can convince my buddy Charley, who is probably on this forum to take one for the team. He did just get KM150's though and may want to run into his on deck (the MP3ii). Time will tell.  Cheers...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on July 16, 2022, 05:44:41 PM
Firmware v1.90 has been released. Looks like just a couple minor bugfixes.

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f6/f6-support/ (https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f6/f6-support/)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: gmm6797 on August 04, 2022, 10:58:46 AM
Has anyone had the F6 just refuse to turn on? I have tried USB, NiMh and even a Sony L battery and the unit will not turn on, it is like is is frozen or locked
I am new to the F6, sorry if this is a simple answer, I did google and could not find an answer for this unit
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on August 06, 2022, 01:02:46 PM
Question regarding using the F6 for a soundboard feed - would pads/attenuators be needed, or is there very little risk of overloading on this unit?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on August 06, 2022, 01:32:54 PM
In my experience the zoom F5 and F3 are great for soundboard feeds. They just need to be set to line in for those channels with P48 set to off. Adjust levels just to the point of clipping if you want to float, and definitely run 32/24. It will tell you if an incoming signal is too high. In that case see if you can turn down the gain or ask the sound crew to turn down the output. I always try to do a test run to set levels during soundcheck. I am sure other people will have some more tips...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on August 06, 2022, 04:27:51 PM
In my experience the zoom F5 and F3 are great for soundboard feeds. They just need to be set to line in for those channels with P48 set to off. Adjust levels just to the point of clipping if you want to float, and definitely run 32/24. It will tell you if an incoming signal is too high. In that case see if you can turn down the gain or ask the sound crew to turn down the output. I always try to do a test run to set levels during soundcheck. I am sure other people will have some more tips...
Thanks for the response.

If I'm running 32, would I still need to turn down the gain? What's the advantage of also running 24?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mcfoster on August 06, 2022, 04:44:23 PM
Sorry, I meant 32/48. You should not have to turn down the gain in 32 bit. Sometimes I an XLR out of the back of a PA speaker and it gives that too hot message. Specifically the F6. So I just turn it down. It will also give that message anytime you plug in a mic or line with the unit on.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on August 31, 2022, 10:36:28 PM
Finally placed an order for one of these. Just curious how others here use the extra inputs. I imagine 6 inputs is not close to adequate for a multitrack mix for most bands playing decent sized clubs?

So mostly board patches + mics? Multiple mics for the heck of it?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 01, 2022, 09:31:55 AM
Pair of mics + SBD (when available) = 4.  So what might one do with the other 2?
If interested in four and six mic arrays that are purposefully designed rather than just for the heck of it, I have good suggestions.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on September 01, 2022, 06:47:21 PM
Pair of mics + SBD (when available) = 4.  So what might one do with the other 2?
  • Second pair of mics to compare / patch from another taper's rig to compare
  • Additional isolated SBD channels (VOX, etc)
  • Four mic array + SBD
  • Six mic array
If interested in four and six mic arrays that are purposefully designed rather than just for the heck of it, I have good suggestions.
I'm interested. I mostly tape indoor gigs, and generally can't get too crazy. I do love the idea of making a surround sound mix as a compliment to a good stereo mix.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 01, 2022, 08:34:11 PM
Attached are what I've found to work well for 4, 5 and 6 channel microphone arrays.  I've yet to roll these new revisions into the now old and dated OMT PDF linked in my signature.

For 4 channels using a pair of cardioids and a pair of supercards, check out config 4 on page two of the OMT4 PDF.  That one works well in more reverberant rooms as well as in great sounding rooms and outdoors and doesn't require spacing a pair of omnis widely enough (the foundation upon which all other OMT configurations are built) making it more practical for many tapers. Of the OMT4 configurations shown in the PDF, configurations 1 & 4 are the ones I suggest trying.

If serious about playing around with surround (It's fun and rewarding), the OMT5 or OMT6 configs will be most appropriate.  Those featuring a rear-facing microphone or pair are obvious choices for feeding the surround channels (a rear-facing pair is best but a single rear mic feeding all surround channels works quite well and much better than most folks expect), but the ones without any rear-facing mics work too by routing the omni channels to the surrounds. You will probably want to route the omnis to to the L/R speakers or sub(s) as well to get sufficient low bass output.  Some configs (such as OMT5 #3) require no mixing at all for surround playback, only level balancing, with each mic feeding its own speaker.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on September 04, 2022, 06:32:36 PM
Thanks Gutbucket! Some of those configurations may be difficult for me to implement, but it will be fun trying different things.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on September 06, 2022, 11:40:18 AM
If you try them let me know how it goes. Happy to answer any questions.

The big asterisks to the left side, and notes there, indicate which configs to gravitate toward.  Those with a filled-in asterisk and a circle around them are likely to work best for most folks.

Attached is an overview of the general OMT progression with increasing channel count, including the more-compact reverberant room OMT4 without omnis at the bottom of the page.   A lot going on visually with all the options shown, but by outlining the progression I think it helps explain the reasoning behind it somewhat.   I've posted a set of updated OMT3 through OMT8+ config PDFs in the OMT thread about a month ago.  Still working on a few additional sections to finish up the revised full booklet.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on September 10, 2022, 11:40:51 PM
This recorder is such a game changer. Just got my f6 the other day, and put it to use at a friends show. This is the first time I was able to hit record, walk away, and just enjoy the music. No worrying about levels. No trying to sync/stretch tracks (I've been using separate recorders) - everything streamlined, and I can just enjoy the music rather than checking my levels or trying to fix my level adjustments in post.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: heathen on September 13, 2022, 08:14:16 PM
Finally placed an order for one of these. Just curious how others here use the extra inputs. I imagine 6 inputs is not close to adequate for a multitrack mix for most bands playing decent sized clubs?

So mostly board patches + mics? Multiple mics for the heck of it?

On my F8 I use extra channels for dual record at different levels just to be safe, but I guess that's not really a concern with 32 bit (and I'm not sure if the F6 has the dual record feature).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on September 14, 2022, 06:20:38 PM
Finally placed an order for one of these. Just curious how others here use the extra inputs. I imagine 6 inputs is not close to adequate for a multitrack mix for most bands playing decent sized clubs?

So mostly board patches + mics? Multiple mics for the heck of it?

On my F8 I use extra channels for dual record at different levels just to be safe, but I guess that's not really a concern with 32 bit (and I'm not sure if the F6 has the dual record feature).

There's a different kind of dual-record on the F6 where you simultaneously run a set of tracks at 24-bit fixed and a duplicate set of 32-bit float. I've never used it. I wonder if that feature exists on the new F8N PRO.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: lmgbtapes on October 15, 2022, 01:25:47 AM
I see they finally released an Android app for the f8 series - have they done the same for the f6? Google seems to say not? :(
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on October 15, 2022, 10:47:44 AM
I see they finally released an Android app for the first series - have they done the same for the f6? Google seems to say not? :(

I thought I'd miss this, because on the 24-bit recorders we use, level monitoring is pretty important. For the f6, set it and forget it.

Though I guess if something funky happens, like the board isn't sending a signal, it's good to be able to monitor that.

My biggest complaint is to my knowledge, there's no lock function to prevent buttons from being pressed accidentally.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 18, 2022, 06:00:44 AM
My biggest complaint is to my knowledge, there's no lock function to prevent buttons from being pressed accidentally.

There is a hold function, as described in the manual. Press and hold in the headphone level knob for a couple seconds.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 18, 2022, 09:58:24 AM
I installed F8 firmware support and the Android F8 Control app just prior to a fest this past weekend.  Need to play around with it some more.  Cool to be able to monitor levels on the phone, yet I ended up not using it. Didn't really need it and didn't want to screw anything up.

Biggest gripe thus far: I wish it allowed for bluetooth connection and disconnection while already recording simply to check levels and settings.  Seems it can only connect prior to recording.  Not sure if the same applies to the F6
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on October 18, 2022, 03:02:05 PM
I installed F8 firmware support and the Android F8 Control app just prior to a fest this past weekend.  Need to play around with it some more.  Cool to be able to monitor levels on the phone, yet I ended up not using it. Didn't really need it and didn't want to screw anything up.

Biggest gripe thus far: I wish it allowed for bluetooth connection and disconnection while already recording simply to check levels and settings.  Seems it can only connect prior to recording.  Not sure if the same applies to the F6
There is no android app for the F6.
In my experience with the F6 and F3, it's a non issue as you just hit record and forget about it and chop off the beginning in post. I have the app and module for the F3, but just don't see any need to use it. The bluetooth module is just collecting dust at this point.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on October 19, 2022, 08:45:03 AM
I use the F8 in the same way. 

Don't really need the control app, mostly curious.  There have been a few situations in which it would have been useful where I put the entire rig up in the rafters without access to it during the show.  But even then it worked fine to just start recording well beforehand and stop it afterward.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: spyder9 on October 20, 2022, 01:35:31 PM
So far, so good on the F6.  Menus are very intuitive, like a Sound Devices 633.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on November 08, 2022, 10:32:22 PM
I'm loving this recorder - really nice, clean, low-noise soundboard pulls and haven't needed to use my attenuator pads like I do on my Sony a10 or Roland r07. Nice not needing to monitor my levels either - it's really a have my cake and eat it too situation. I can just enjoy my show and let my recorder do its thing. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Phil Zone on March 02, 2023, 08:05:25 AM
Is the F6 really that picky about cards that it only takes the ones on its approved list still?

I read back a bit and it seems unclear, I have a bunch of SanDisk extreme cards that I shoot 4K video with no problem so I'd imagine it would be by far and away faster than needed for audio recording.

Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on March 02, 2023, 12:47:28 PM
Is the F6 really that picky about cards that it only takes the ones on its approved list still?

I read back a bit and it seems unclear, I have a bunch of SanDisk extreme cards that I shoot 4K video with no problem so I'd imagine it would be by far and away faster than needed for audio recording.

Thanks for the help!
I have never had an issue with any card. I use many different brands depending on price when I order.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mepaca on March 02, 2023, 04:58:37 PM
Is the F6 really that picky about cards that it only takes the ones on its approved list still?

I read back a bit and it seems unclear, I have a bunch of SanDisk extreme cards that I shoot 4K video with no problem so I'd imagine it would be by far and away faster than needed for audio recording.

Thanks for the help!

I use Sandisk extreme cards in mine with no problems ever.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 02, 2023, 05:58:49 PM
I'm not sure if I'd trust totally random cards, but at least you have more than one or two that work.

FYI, the F6 card list hasn't been updated in a long time and most or all of those cars models are discontinued. Remember that the product name on the card means nothing on these lists; you need to find those exact cars with those exact model numbers in order to be getting the cards that were tested.

So, my advice to F6 users who want to buy a currently available card tested by Zoom is to buy one off the list for the much newer F8n Pro. It's a different recorder, but one with a higher channel count so it stands to reason that cards that perform well in the F8n should also perform well in the F6.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Phil Zone on March 02, 2023, 07:35:34 PM
Thanks everyone for the information! Very excited for the F6 to arrive!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 02, 2023, 08:08:52 PM
All my SD cards for my Mixpre 6 and Mixpre 10 II haven't been on the approved list and had performed flawlessly.

I'm not sure if I'd trust totally random cards, but at least you have more than one or two that work. Yet another advantage the Zoom F series has over the SD MixPre-II.

FYI, the F6 card list hasn't been updated in a long time and most or all of those cars models are discontinued. Remember that the product name on the card means nothing on these lists; you need to find those exact cars with those exact model numbers in order to be getting the cards that were tested.

So, my advice to F6 users who want to buy a currently available card tested by Zoom is to buy one off the list for the much newer F8n Pro. It's a different recorder, but one with a higher channel count so it stands to reason that cards that perform well in the F8n should also perform well in the F6.

That's very different from what I've heard from other MPII owners. Maybe those were pickier about cards in early firmwares.

I just checked and now SD has a lot more cards on their recommended media list than there used to be. So I will delete that portion of my comment.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jbell on March 03, 2023, 08:18:02 AM
I actually used a card that was on the unapproved list in my Mixpre 10 II until recently and never had a problem.  I didn't realize it was on the unapproved list it came with my mp 10 when I bought it. It was what the previous owner was using.

All my SD cards for my Mixpre 6 and Mixpre 10 II haven't been on the approved list and had performed flawlessly.

I'm not sure if I'd trust totally random cards, but at least you have more than one or two that work. Yet another advantage the Zoom F series has over the SD MixPre-II.

FYI, the F6 card list hasn't been updated in a long time and most or all of those cars models are discontinued. Remember that the product name on the card means nothing on these lists; you need to find those exact cars with those exact model numbers in order to be getting the cards that were tested.

So, my advice to F6 users who want to buy a currently available card tested by Zoom is to buy one off the list for the much newer F8n Pro. It's a different recorder, but one with a higher channel count so it stands to reason that cards that perform well in the F8n should also perform well in the F6.

That's very different from what I've heard from other MPII owners. Maybe those were pickier about cards in early firmwares.

I just checked and now SD has a lot more cards on their recommended media list than there used to be. So I will delete that portion of my comment.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on March 03, 2023, 08:43:15 AM
I am curious about all of those other advantages of the F recorders compared to the MixPres...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on March 03, 2023, 02:44:38 PM
The recorder may perhaps have issues with certain cards at 32/192, but I record at 32/48 and have never had an issue with any cards in both the MixPre6II and the Zoom F6. I generally shop by price but I do try to stick to a brand that is known. On both decks I generally will run 6 (phantom powered) mics, sometimes 4.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 03, 2023, 07:57:40 PM
I am curious about all of those other advantages of the F recorders compared to the MixPres...

That earlier statement was a bit rash, hence my deleting. That said, I think both brands / lines have their advantages in different areas. Advantages for each as I see it (based on my limited time using a MP6-II):

F-Series:
- value per channel
- simpler controls and UI
- polywav, mono, or stereo files
- simultaneous 24 fixed and 32 float recording
- powering - no extra sleds, hot-swappable with internal

MPII:
- higher input headroom in MIC mode
- analog limiters
- better HP amp?
- combo XLR jacks on all models
- nicer trim pots
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: darby on March 03, 2023, 09:09:24 PM
I am curious about all of those other advantages of the F recorders compared to the MixPres...

That earlier statement was a bit rash, hence my deleting. That said, I think both brands / lines have their advantages in different areas. Advantages for each as I see it (based on my limited time using a MP6-II):

F-Series:
- value per channel
- simpler controls and UI
- polywav, mono, or stereo files
- simultaneous 24 fixed and 32 float recording
- powering - no extra sleds, hot-swappable with internal

MPII:
- higher input headroom in MIC mode
- analog limiters
- better HP amp?
- combo XLR jacks on all models
- nicer trim pots

that statement is incorrect... the MixPre-3ii only has XLR
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on March 04, 2023, 08:59:22 AM
Personally, I think a lot of those advantages are more preferences. "Value per channel"? If by value you mean dollars, OK. I would rather have the analog pres, though, even if they cost more. I couldn't care less about poly WAV; I find it to be the most convenient format for archiving my original files and it is seconds of work to get it into any other format. I also prefer the UI on the MixPre; the very responsive touchscreen makes it super easy to navigate quickly and I find it to be well-organized.

To me the only real advantage of the F series is that battery life is better, but that is the necessary trade-off for analog pres, (adjustable) limiters, and (adjustable) low-cut filters. I prefer the build quality of the SDs, how the shape fits my bag, and the much better mic input (lower minimum gain, higher max input). Sound Devices also has excellent customer service, with repair facilities in the US and Europe. Although I don't have much use for it, I would even suspect a better implementation of 32-bit float, based on their patent, which implies three ADCs and a novel algorithm for combining the streams.

Pretty much a personal choice based on what a given individual finds most/least important in a recorder...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on March 06, 2023, 09:13:13 AM
I tried both the MP3 and the F6. Using 2x DPA 4090 microphones for a pipe organ recording. The MP3 sounded a tad warmer, the F6 a tad clearer. I preferred clarity.
In addition, I found the power options and design of the battery sled of the F6 a big +.
The F6 uses the THAT1583 IC as mic preamp. You will need a real good analog circuit to improve it, but it's also dependent of the components around this chip. 
The second generation Zoom headphone amp as used in the F6 is good enough to drive my AKG K702. And sounds better than my Creek OBH21 headphone amplifier.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on March 06, 2023, 12:01:38 PM
I have the Zoom F6 and the MixPre6II. I like both of them a great deal. I prefer whichever one I am using. I have them in different cities, and each time I am using one model, I swear I like it better then the other. It comes down personal preference, but both do a great job and free you to worry about other important things like mics and mic placement. ;D
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Phil Zone on March 09, 2023, 01:18:53 PM
I just got mine!

Am I crazy or can you not control the gain in 24 bit mode with the knobs? When I am in that mode it controls the level in the LR mix even though I have it disabled... Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on March 09, 2023, 03:02:14 PM
I just got mine!

Am I crazy or can you not control the gain in 24 bit mode with the knobs? When I am in that mode it controls the level in the LR mix even though I have it disabled... Any thoughts?
Without getting too detailed as there are many options and ways you can control tracks inputs and outputs, but you do control gain (referred to as trim by Zoom) in 24Bit mode through the knobs. Each corresponding knob matches the track. Your LR mix levels will go up or down too depending on how that menu is set, as that is done in a totally different menu. Even with LR mix  disabled you will see those levels on the screen. That said if you adjust the trim for track one, track one should go up or down on the screen in accordance. Same for the other 5 tracks if they are turned on.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Phil Zone on March 09, 2023, 03:15:29 PM
I just got mine!

Am I crazy or can you not control the gain in 24 bit mode with the knobs? When I am in that mode it controls the level in the LR mix even though I have it disabled... Any thoughts?
Without getting too detailed as there are many options and ways you can control tracks inputs and outputs, but you do control gain (referred to as trim by Zoom) in 24Bit mode through the knobs. Each corresponding knob matches the track. Your LR mix levels will go up or down too depending on how that menu is set, as that is done in a totally different menu. Even with LR mix  disabled you will see those levels on the screen. That said if you adjust the trim for track one, track one should go up or down on the screen in accordance. Same for the other 5 tracks if they are turned on.

Thanks for the reply. Odd that mine does not behave that way... I'll have to keep toying with settings, I dug deep and don't see why it would not be controlling the fader level... I can only adjust via the trim setting on the corresponding input and not the knobs. This is only in 24 bit mode, 32 behaves as you'd expect. Thanks!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 09, 2023, 05:04:09 PM
Forgive me if this is off-base, as I'm not an F6 user, but with F8 there are mix-setup menu settings that change the behavior of the individual channel knobs.  In the standard arrangement the knobs control input trim.  In another they control fader-mix level, and input trim is instead controlled by switching focus to the channel of interest by scrolling to it using the primary input knob, pressing it to highlight that channel, then using the primary input knob to adjust trim.  I keep the recorder set to that second option so that input trims do not get changed by accident while recording by simply bumping a knob, without having to lock and unlock the knobs.  Most of the time I don't really care how the mix levels are set, but ideally I'd like an option where those are not controlled by the individual knobs either.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 09, 2023, 07:54:06 PM
Dallman: I have actually never used my F6 in 24-bit mode, but looking through the manual I'm at a loss as to why your knobs are only working as faders for the L/R mix rather than input trims.

Gutbucket: See the screenshot from pg. 194 of the F6 manual that shows a rough equivalent to what you are describing (though only in 32-bit float mode).
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Ozpeter on March 10, 2023, 06:04:41 AM
By sheer co-incidence, or due to the net following what I read, this YT video just popped up in my recommendations.  I've not even looked at it, but maybe it's relevant.  Or not.

https://youtu.be/caFWpTk3Aak
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: dallman on March 10, 2023, 12:40:43 PM
Dallman: I have actually never used my F6 in 24-bit mode, but looking through the manual I'm at a loss as to why your knobs are only working as faders for the L/R mix rather than input trims.


Volt, I don't see where I ever said that. In 24bit they are trim, In 32bit float they are faders. Sorry for any confusion.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 10, 2023, 08:10:49 PM
Dallman: I have actually never used my F6 in 24-bit mode, but looking through the manual I'm at a loss as to why your knobs are only working as faders for the L/R mix rather than input trims.


Volt, I don't see where I ever said that. In 24bit they are trim, In 32bit float they are faders. Sorry for any confusion.

I read your post as saying that your knobs were only working as faders for the L/R mix, and you could not adjust ISO gain with them. My apologies if I misread.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: illconditioned on March 14, 2023, 12:49:28 AM
I tried both the MP3 and the F6. Using 2x DPA 4090 microphones for a pipe organ recording. The MP3 sounded a tad warmer, the F6 a tad clearer. I preferred clarity.
In addition, I found the power options and design of the battery sled of the F6 a big +.
The F6 uses the THAT1583 IC as mic preamp. You will need a real good analog circuit to improve it, but it's also dependent of the components around this chip. 
The second generation Zoom headphone amp as used in the F6 is good enough to drive my AKG K702. And sounds better than my Creek OBH21 headphone amplifier.
Hello Organfreak
you mentioned F6 uses THAT1583 preamp.  Do you have a reference for this (or did you take it apart yourself)?
I am always interested in what is inside.  Also, if the same chip is inside the F3, which I have.
Thanks!  Richard
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on March 14, 2023, 04:31:32 PM
Hello Illconditioned,
It was confirmed by Doug Oade the THAT1583 is used in the Zoom F series. He once did an upgrade to my Marantz PMD661 and prior to buying the F6 we had some correspondence about its quality and internals. All the Zoom F series (as you can read on the Zoom site) use the same mic preamp chip.
See also this site: https://windowpaneaudio.wordpress.com/2020/02/23/zoom-f8-teardown/
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 14, 2023, 06:20:37 PM
Hello Illconditioned,
It was confirmed by Doug Oade the THAT1583 is used in the Zoom F series. He once did an upgrade to my Marantz PMD661 and prior to buying the F6 we had some correspondence about its quality and internals. All the Zoom F series (as you can read on the Zoom site) use the same mic preamp chip.
See also this site: https://windowpaneaudio.wordpress.com/2020/02/23/zoom-f8-teardown/

Great website; thanks!

I can only imagine how cramped things are in the F6, or the F3.

Regarding the comment made there about the internal batteries causing things to get tight, those internal batteries were one of the things that led me to purchase the F6 since you can hot-swap NP-F batteries without any other external power. I wish the F8 had two NP battery mounts like the SD MP-10. Instead they have that silly proprietary Zoom capsule connector on the back.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: illconditioned on March 14, 2023, 11:54:57 PM
Thanks for the info.
BTW, according to another article by the same guy, the Sound Devices unit uses a different (discrete) input stage: a matched pair of transistors + OPA1622 opamp.  Also, Sound Devices uses as +/- 5V supply, a little less than the typical +/- 12V or 15V used in some gear.


Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on March 20, 2023, 12:45:27 AM
Just popping in to say I've been using this recorder since September and its been a dream being able to drop the recorder somewhere and not worry about the levels. I'm low on complaints, but found one strange quirk.

My Nakamichi CM-1000 pinpoint omni mics are very noisy on inputs one and two, but silent on inputs 3,4,5,6. Inputs 1 and 2 are fine with other mics. I wish I knew more why that specific combination causes hiss in my recording, but it's easy enough to avoid to not be a problem.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 20, 2023, 05:43:05 PM
My Nakamichi CM-1000 pinpoint omni mics are very noisy on inputs one and two, but silent on inputs 3,4,5,6. Inputs 1 and 2 are fine with other mics. I wish I knew more why that specific combination causes hiss in my recording, but it's easy enough to avoid to not be a problem.

Have you checked that the phantom voltage isn't set differently on inputs 1&2?

Do any other mics produce this elevated noise on those inputs?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on March 20, 2023, 06:32:05 PM
My Nakamichi CM-1000 pinpoint omni mics are very noisy on inputs one and two, but silent on inputs 3,4,5,6. Inputs 1 and 2 are fine with other mics. I wish I knew more why that specific combination causes hiss in my recording, but it's easy enough to avoid to not be a problem.

Have you checked that the phantom voltage isn't set differently on inputs 1&2?

Do any other mics produce this elevated noise on those inputs?
Same settings on all inputs, and no, I only have the issue with the Nakamichis.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 21, 2023, 09:52:32 AM
I don't have time to go looking, but check if the impedance of ch1&2 inputs is the same as the others. And/or if there is a high/low impedance setting that adjusts that, possibly referred to as high-Z or "instrument" input.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 21, 2023, 05:55:08 PM
I don't have time to go looking, but check if the impedance of ch1&2 inputs is the same as the others. And/or if there is a high/low impedance setting that adjusts that, possibly referred to as high-Z or "instrument" input.

I don't think that exists on the F6, but there is a LINE+PHANTOM mode on the F-series.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: BlueSky71 on March 21, 2023, 07:37:01 PM
Also, I Always think of Nak mics as having batteries, but I am not sure about these pinpoint omnis.

Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: roffels on March 21, 2023, 07:44:17 PM


I don't think that exists on the F6, but there is a LINE+PHANTOM mode on the F-series.
[/quote]

Also, I Always think of Nak mics as having batteries, but I am not sure about these pinpoint omnis.
[/quote]
They have a separate battery box but I've been told they run on phantom fine. They do ok on inputs 3/4, 5/6. It could just be a quirk of those mics.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Phil Zone on March 21, 2023, 07:45:59 PM
Is the number inside the battery indicator a voltage readout? I was assuming it was time, I am running a battery test with a 2200 mah dracast battery and the level is going down very quick but the number is holding at 7.5.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: BlueSky71 on March 21, 2023, 07:51:13 PM
Also, there are these settings for setting on each input:

MIC
MIC ph can be 24 or 48v
LINE
LINE ph can be 24 or 48v

Lastly if you are not set to Float, the "trim" is active

https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/E_F6.pdf     page 24 in the bottom corner are hint about trim.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 22, 2023, 09:39:42 AM
Is the number inside the battery indicator a voltage readout? I was assuming it was time, I am running a battery test with a 2200 mah dracast battery and the level is going down very quick but the number is holding at 7.5.

Yes, voltage
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on October 01, 2023, 03:49:23 PM
Firmware v.2.00 was released back on 7/28/2023. It includes a number of new features, most notable of which is the ability to use 32-bit float in interface mode. There is a supplementary manual on the support page which details the new functions.

https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/field-recorders/field-recorders/f6/f6-support/
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: santosgonzalez on November 20, 2023, 06:35:21 PM
Hi All, I have a question regarding the recording levels of the F6. I'm comparing the recordings of 3 line inputs (32-bit float) on the F6. I noticed, as also discussed previously on this thread, that the knobs change the recording levels. This hinders the comparison greatly. Is there any way to turn this off? Or find what the fader setting were for each recorder?

Currently, I'm just turning the knobs by hand every time to ensure they are at the same level, which is getting a bit annoying...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 21, 2023, 05:44:48 AM
All you need to do is link the channel adjustments together on one knob.

Menu > Input > Link Setting
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: santosgonzalez on November 21, 2023, 07:15:07 PM
Thanks voltronic! That is perfect, can't believe I missed that in the manual!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on November 22, 2023, 08:21:41 AM
Thanks voltronic! That is perfect, can't believe I missed that in the manual!

You're welcome. It's quite a handy feature.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 06, 2023, 10:04:03 PM
I am sad to report a somewhat negative development with my F6, and with my opinion on Zoom overall.

About 6 weeks ago I reached down to adjust my F6 and accidentally snagged one of the mic cables, knocking it off the Pelican case it was sitting on and onto the tile floor (about a 6 inch drop). It fell onto the attached NP-F battery, and the battery was now loose in its mount. I carefully set it down, and was able to keep recording the concert (the battery was still electrically connected). When I got home I got a close look at what had happened.

If you are familiar with these batteries, you know that they connect to two terminals on your equipment while four tabs slide into tracks on the sides of the battery which hold it flush against the mounting plate, with a latch of some sort to keep the battery from sliding out. It seems that all four of these side tabs had snapped off my F6, leaving only the terminals and the latch (which now doesn't latch because the battery isn't properly held against the mounting plate). From the areas where the tabs broke, I could see that the entire back plate is molded from plastic that is rather thin.

I reached out to Zoom technical support, explained what had happened, and asked if I could send my unit in for repair. No, they do not do repairs. I asked if they could sell me the battery plate separately, and I would gladly void my warranty and replace the part myself. No, they cannot sell parts. I asked if their service centers had any non-working F6 units they could send me that I could cannibalize parts from. No, they do not keep broken units on hand.

The agent then offered that I could trade my F6 in for a new one, at a cost of $300 plus shipping. I said that it shouldn't cost me $300 because a cheaply-made plastic part broke, and it made no sense to completely replace a unit that otherwise still functioned perfectly. There was nothing else the agent could do, so I declined.

Since then, I have been gaff taping the NP battery to the recorder. This works, but it's kludgy, and the whole experience irritated me. Obviously I could use a USB-C power bank and go on my merry way, but that's specifically what I wanted to avoid by using the NP-F batteries. They run forever and eliminate a potential failure point of having a cable to an external power source. It's one of my favorite things about the F6.

I've been a strong proponent of the Zoom F series recorders, thinking they had finally stepped up their game into "pro" level. But now I'm beginning to see how they save costs, and that they really are not yet in the same league as the established professional brands. The materials are not as high quality, and the hardware isn't made to be repairable.


I had already been thinking that down the road that eventually I will want 8 inputs, as I'm using 6 more frequently. The F8n PRO had been a candidate, but this experience has me questioning whether or not I want to give Zoom more of my money right now. I want something that is built to last with a company that will stand behind it for the long haul. I got to talking to some professional classical engineers who I respect very highly on Gearspace Remote Possibilities, and they convinced me that the best value proposition for me would be to pursue a used Sound Devices 788T-SSD. Many of them rely on the 788 every day. Yes, these are now rather old, but the 788 is superior to the F-series (and the SD MixPre-II line for that matter) in pretty much every category, particularly build quality, repair-ability, and support. I would lose the auto-ranging DACs and 32-bit float recording which I enjoy greatly, but I would be gaining pretty much everywhere else. Previously these units were priced in the stratosphere as it was Sound Devices' flagship recorder, but now used units in good condition can be had for very low prices. So, this tank is now on its way to me (https://www.soundpure.com/p/sound-devices-788t-used/34254) for a 7-day free trial. Assuming I keep it, I will probably also keep my F6 but it will be relegated to backup duties for now.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: BlueSky71 on December 06, 2023, 10:35:06 PM
Volt, I can sense your frustration and thanks for the heads up on the external battery. I have always used a 6" right angle USB-C's with my zooms. Never an issue with disconnects and always enough run time. And to be clear, I am the biggest offender of not having a proper gear bag at jam shows. I generally leave them on top of a padded bag, as it seems you may have that night. It's clear you are a big proponent of Zoom recorders, or had been anyways, and while this experience may have been disappointing, I have to guess that the F8 would prove to be absolutely amazing for all the reasons you already know. Buy one on Amazon, you would have till 1/31 to return it...

Personally, if that old 788 showed up at my place I would be sending it back before I even used it. To each their own.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: justme on December 07, 2023, 01:28:49 AM
Ohhh that frustrates me as well beyond belief.

When something or someone is soo close to achieving the upper standard they easily could do but don’t.
Once all disciplines within a corporation worked in harmony to deliver to their brand reputation and position. But today it feels as it’s something of the past only. Fasted paced development in some key areas but not all and definitely not through out the whole organisation and the products lifecycle.

Good specs and great hero shots for social media appear to be more important. Together with new revisions and scheduled EOL from start. Rinse and repeat.

Perhaps I’m getting too old only.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: SMsound on December 07, 2023, 01:35:55 AM
.. But now I'm beginning to see how they save costs, and that they really are not yet in the same league as the established professional brands. The materials are not as high quality, and the hardware isn't made to be repairable...

I am surprised they would not want to compete with Sound Devices in terms of service as well, as Zoom clearly seems to want to compete in terms of products. Sound Devices mailed me a small replacement part for free on two separate occasions when I explained that it had broken (time #1) or that I had lost the part (time #2).

Someone on the industry/location sound groups, or possibly one of the LA sound places (Trew?) might have a dead unit to sell you for less $. Or maybe the Field Recording guys, who subject their equipment to all sorts of weather.
Title: q1q
Post by: grawk on December 07, 2023, 07:07:52 AM
+
Personally, if that old 788 showed up at my place I would be sending it back before I even used it. To each their own.

Have you used a 788?  I run a 552 in front of my F6, but I debate whether I should have just gone to a 788 from the beginning.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Colin Liston on December 07, 2023, 09:04:00 AM
Have you tried contacting them again in hopes of getting a different person and a different answer? Or maybe try someone at Sweetwater to see if they have any non working F6's. 
Title: Re: q1q
Post by: BlueSky71 on December 07, 2023, 09:09:40 AM
+
Personally, if that old 788 showed up at my place I would be sending it back before I even used it. To each their own.

Have you used a 788?  I run a 552 in front of my F6, but I debate whether I should have just gone to a 788 from the beginning.

I have not, it looks antiquated to me, but I know they have a stellar reputation. I just watched this review and appreciate it more than before. I am curious whether or not Voltronic thinks it's and upgrade in some way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtBmRGwnFoo
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 07, 2023, 09:47:17 AM
Bummer.

The only Zoom recorder I've had hands-on experience with is the F8.  I was skeptical of Zoom prior to the F8, but that recorder changed my opinion, which has grown more favorable over the past 6 years or so that I've been using it.  Its been robust, dependable, simple to use and has a few features the SD recorders do not that are important to me, such as standard size XLR inputs for all channels.  I don't want to have to use adapter cables to access the channel 5-8 inputs.  Its those kind of little practical things that have kept me from moving from the F8 to an SD machine, each time I reassess that decision. A generously sized Tallentcell battery has worked fine for me into the coaxial power input, so I personally don't miss the NP-F feature, but full agree it would be more useful and appropriate on the F8 than that proprietary Zoom mic connector.  I am considering moving from the original F8 to a N or Pro model though.

That said, I've never had to deal with Zoom support or repair.  On that front I expect little comparison and SD to provide superior service.  I'll use it until I break it and buy another or move to something else at that point I suppose.  I'm okay with that, but the calculus will be different for different folks.


With regard to repairing your damage unit, might it be possible to permanently epoxy-in-place a different, more-robust NP-F battery-mount plate on top of the old one?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: spyder9 on December 07, 2023, 10:41:13 AM
Clarity:  This not about a Zoom manufacturing issue.  Its about damaging your own gear.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 07, 2023, 10:56:36 AM
Not a manufacting issue but a repair / repair-support issue.. the root of which was tied to a design choice made by Zoom which Voltronic is also questioning.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on December 07, 2023, 11:12:13 AM
Yes, these are now rather old, but the 788 is superior to the F-series (and the SD MixPre-II line for that matter) in pretty much every category, particularly build quality, repair-ability, and support.

Personally, I have never considered the Zooms, or the MixPres for that matter, to be professional grade. More like "prosumer". The MixPres, though, are repairable and share the same excellent customer support that you should expect with the 788.

Honestly, I find it kind of scandalous that a $650 recorder is essentially disposable in Zoom's eyes. I guess good customer service costs a bundle, though.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: jbell on December 07, 2023, 12:43:14 PM
Just my opinion, but I would always chose Sound devices over Zoom!  They have a long standing history of quality recorders. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: grawk on December 07, 2023, 01:47:02 PM
just for reference, the service fee (before anything is done) for SD is $800 now...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: DSatz on December 07, 2023, 01:51:03 PM
It's a field recorder. Field recorders get subjected to occasional knocks. If the device can't take it, that's on the manufacturer. Serviceability is an intrinsic element of competent equipment design, except for items such as flashbulbs, Q-Tips and Kleenex.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on December 07, 2023, 02:15:03 PM
just for reference, the service fee (before anything is done) for SD is $800 now...

It depends on the product, with higher prices for discontinued models: https://www.sounddevices.com/support/ (https://www.sounddevices.com/support/). It appears from the wording that the fee includes parts and labor. They also say to contact them for parts, so you can probably save some cash if you can do it yourself or know someone that can. Of course, that doesn't get you the one-year warranty that SD service comes with. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 07, 2023, 02:50:08 PM
just for reference, the service fee (before anything is done) for SD is $800 now...

Ouch. Fortunately, the engineers at SoundPure gave it a thorough once-over before putting it up for sale. And I also have a no-risk trial week or I can send it back without getting charged if I find any issues with it. The other thing is that if and when I need to replace the SSD or the timecode battery, those are very easy to do myself.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: spyder9 on December 07, 2023, 02:55:46 PM
just for reference, the service fee (before anything is done) for SD is $800 now...

$800 bench charge makes the SD MixPre recorders disposable, just like the Zoom and Tascam recorders. 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: grawk on December 07, 2023, 02:57:29 PM
just for reference, the service fee (before anything is done) for SD is $800 now...

It depends on the product, with higher prices for discontinued models: https://www.sounddevices.com/support/ (https://www.sounddevices.com/support/). It appears from the wording that the fee includes parts and labor. They also say to contact them for parts, so you can probably save some cash if you can do it yourself or know someone that can. Of course, that doesn't get you the one-year warranty that SD service comes with.

yeah. The 788 is what I was discussing. My 552 also. It’s the difference between old pro gear and new prosumer gear at similar price points to the zoom and mixpre (which is also prosumer)
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on December 07, 2023, 03:05:45 PM
^ It's a lot, to be sure, but I think the older 7-series must be about twenty years old now? Discontinued around 5 years ago? At $245 for a $1060 MixPre-6 or $345 for a $1775 MixPre-10, the price isn't too bad.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: grawk on December 07, 2023, 03:08:33 PM
^ It's a lot, to be sure, but I think the older 7-series must be about twenty years old now? Discontinued around 5 years ago? At $245 for a $1060 MixPre-6 or $345 for a $1775 MixPre-10, the price isn't too bad.

yeah i wasn’t trying to add fuel to the sd vs zoom argument, more sharing the pain of using “outdated” top tier gear. I use my sd WITH my f6, so i decided on both.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on December 07, 2023, 04:04:32 PM
There is no SD vs. Zoom argument from me. I figure people should use whatever they prefer; both have their advantages and disadvantages.

I completely understand "the pain of using 'outdated' top tier gear", though, or, at least, the cost of getting it repaired. I guess there are (at a minimum) two factors, one of which is the older parts becoming more rare and difficult to source and the second is that (probably) SD wants to make it painful enough that you go for non-outdated top tier replacements! I noticed that the MP-2 is in the $795 category. In my opinion, you would have to be crazy to fix one at that rate...
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 07, 2023, 05:32:12 PM
Yes, the service rates on discontinued items are indeed very high, but their explanation for that on the repair FAQ makes sense. They do say that they carry pretty much every part for everything they've ever made, and will sell you the parts if you want to do repairs yourselves.

Quote
Don’t you have a cheaper option for service?

No, we do not. We won’t take shortcuts on our work, and we have a finite number of trained Technicians available. Sound Devices equipment is typically straightforward to disassemble to do simple things like replace batteries or connectors. The technically inclined may elect to do this work themselves. For any PC-board-level repairs, we highly recommend sending units to us, as we do not publish schematics, and we also carry all the specialized repair equipment, like hot-air pencils, microscopes, BGA rework equipment, and diagnostic equipment required for this work. For any units still under warranty, we require that we do all the work on the equipment, otherwise the warranty is voided.

Quote
Why are your rates higher for discontinued products?

Three reasons: 1) Keeping stock of all the parts and the test equipment requires a significant investment of capital; 2) Offering a 1-year warranty on older products is riskier; 3) We do prioritize and incentivize the repair of the newer products over older ones.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 07, 2023, 07:03:47 PM
Before this thread diverges further off topic, I want to clear the air.

I still think the F6 is a great piece of gear, and will still recommend it. My unit is one of the very first ones delivered to Sweetwater, so it's given me years of solid service.
The only thing that's changed is that my recommendation now comes with the caveat that Zoom does not sell replacement parts or perform repairs.

//

If we're going to continue talking about Sound Devices we should probably continue it elsewhere. That was my fault for bringing all that into this thread.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: goodcooker on December 08, 2023, 02:32:19 PM
Before this thread diverges further off topic, I want to clear the air.
I still think the F6 is a great piece of gear, and will still recommend it. My unit is one of the very first ones delivered to Sweetwater, so it's given me years of solid service.
The only thing that's changed is that my recommendation now comes with the caveat that Zoom does not sell replacement parts or perform repairs.
//
If we're going to continue talking about Sound Devices we should probably continue it elsewhere. That was my fault for bringing all that into this thread.

I bought a Zoom F6 in 2021 for a very fair used price I think it was less than $500 IIRC. I fooled around with it at home but didn't take it out to record a show since I was working 7 days a week for months at a time. Something about it just didn't jive with me. I've heard some good sounding recordings made with them and I think the price performance ratio is outstanding but Zoom as a company just keeps coming out with more and more new gear every year to the point where I have doubts about their engineering them for longevity.

I looked long and hard at an SD 788t when the bottom fell out of the market. The preamps are my favorite of any device they've made.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 08, 2023, 03:22:51 PM
I heard some good sounding recordings made with them and I think the price performance ratio is outstanding but Zoom as a company just keeps coming out with more and more new gear every year to the point where I have doubts about their engineering them for longevity.

Interesting observation about the frequency of new products and how that may relate to their expected service life. It does seem that the amount of new products that they release in a given year has been increasing.

Also, I realize comparing Zoom to a company like Sound Devices may be a bit unfair. The history of those companies' respective products and the customers they serve are not at all the same. A better comparison might be with Tascam or Sony.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: aaronji on December 08, 2023, 04:41:21 PM
Also, I realize comparing Zoom to a company like Sound Devices may be a bit unfair. The history of those companies' respective products and the customers they serve are not at all the same. A better comparison might be with Tascam or Sony.

This is an important point, in my opinion. Zoom, I think, has most of their products made (and possibly designed) by overseas manufacturers. SD does a lot of R&D in house (witness the number of patents they possess) and do all, or most, of the assembly in WI. Those factors reflect a huge difference in corporate philosophy... 
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 09, 2023, 03:49:52 PM
I am beginning to suspect the short drop several weeks back that broke the NP battery tabs off may have broken something else internally. At last night's rehearsal recording I had 4011's on ch 1-2 and 4006's on 5-6 and the right 4006 channel (F6 input 6) recorded about 6 dB lower than the left even though the input levels onscreen at the time showed no imbalance. I thoroughly tested everything today - mics, cables, recorder settings, etc. There is absolutely no problem I can find with anything.

This problematic M/S recording (https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203746.msg2403771) was from the concert I recorded right after the drop occurred. At the time, I (and many others) were suggesting the fig8 pattern on one of the 414s could be wonky, but everything tested perfect. That pair of mics was recording on F6 channels 3-4, with my 4006 pair on 5-6. Different cables, too. So I can't even track it down to one bad channel.

So I now have two different concerts post-drop where 4+ channels were recording where I have had channel imbalance issues in my recorded tracks. The cables and mics for the problem tracks were different, and everything (including the F6) tested perfectly after the fact both times.

One thing occurs to me: All of my testing trying to track down the problem after both incidents had me recording only two channels, rather than 4 or 6. I'm going to format my SD card and see if that might be a possible failure point. There are never any dropouts or glitches, though.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on December 09, 2023, 05:00:33 PM
Wondering if one leg of the differential input on channel 6 became disconnected.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 09, 2023, 05:22:18 PM
Wondering if one leg of the differential input on channel 6 became disconnected.

I get where you're going, where it would make that one channel lower level and unbalanced, but I don't think that's it. When I just plugged my 4006 pair in this afternoon for testing both inputs there were rock solid. And the level meters while recording looked exactly right. There was no visual imbalance between 5 and 6 except when strong material came from either side. Also, I previously had an issue with channel 4 on the failed M/S recording I linked to above.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on December 17, 2023, 11:15:10 AM
Update: I did more thorough testing today with three matched pairs of mics. Channels 1-2 are fine, but channels 3 and 6 are much lower level than they ought to be. This is not SD card related - it is clearly seen and heard even when not recording. I also did a factory reset, went through different modes, channels linked or unlinked, etc.

Clearly there is internal damage and I will need to do the $300 replacement if I want to keep using this as more than a 2-channel recorder.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Colin Liston on January 05, 2024, 12:04:16 PM
What are people using for gear bag for their F6?  Rather not pay big money for an actual gear bag but looking for something like a nice camping type fanny pack.  Any ideas?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: grawk on January 05, 2024, 12:07:59 PM
What are people using for gear bag for their F6?  Rather not pay big money for an actual gear bag but looking for something like a nice camping type fanny pack.  Any ideas?
https://clearbackpacks.com/products/stadium-tote-for-sports-venues
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: breakonthru on January 05, 2024, 08:37:59 PM
What are people using for gear bag for their F6?  Rather not pay big money for an actual gear bag but looking for something like a nice camping type fanny pack.  Any ideas?
I use the 25 year old apogee zipper pouch that they used to include with a 10-box of DATs. Fits the F6 perfectly with the fatty six-cell L battery attached

A quick search for the image shows they come up on eBay now and again. Here’s one but you have to throw down for the DATs

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255344895237

Not a full bag solution but protective enough that you can then chuck it in a larger bag. If you’re running 6 channels you prob have a big bag for cables and mic mounts. I use a sleeping bag stuff sack to shove all my cables in. And a zipper case about twice the size of the apogee for mic mounts. Compartmentalization is the name of the game for getting in and out efficiently
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on January 18, 2024, 11:23:50 AM
I use the F6 also for play-back via its 3.5 mm line out. The knobs provide the option for instant mixing of the channels.
What about the quality of this line out connection? Is it OK or would using a dedicated SD card player give (even) better audible result?
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Organfreak on January 24, 2024, 04:23:47 AM
^^
Background is that I had a first-generation Marantz PMD661 in the past. The PMD661 had a weak headphone output (2x 16 mW) and a below par line output. Doug Oade explained that both its line out and headphone were taken directly from the DA chip - for cost savings.
I was wondering if the F6 line out is a better design.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: al w. on March 10, 2024, 07:19:52 PM
I'm double checking my F6's setup for some shows this week, and something is making me wonder if I'm crazy.

I swear that the last time I taped, I was able to link all 6 tracks together so that I could enable all tracks simply by turning the knob for track 1. However, today, when I turned the track 1 knob, only tracks 1 and 2 turned on (because they are a stereo pair).

I assumed this was controlled by the trim link setting, but when I trim link all tracks together (setting all tracks to "Group A"), the behavior doesn't change... am I misremembering? I could have sworn I was able to make it work this way, and I liked being able to control everything from one knob.

 ???
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 10, 2024, 07:57:35 PM
I'm double checking my F6's setup for some shows this week, and something is making me wonder if I'm crazy.

I swear that the last time I taped, I was able to link all 6 tracks together so that I could enable all tracks simply by turning the knob for track 1. However, today, when I turned the track 1 knob, only tracks 1 and 2 turned on (because they are a stereo pair).

I assumed this was controlled by the trim link setting, but when I trim link all tracks together (setting all tracks to "Group A"), the behavior doesn't change... am I misremembering? I could have sworn I was able to make it work this way, and I liked being able to control everything from one knob.

 ???

Try clicking on knobs 3 and 5? I'm assuming you have Input Link as stereo pairs 1-2, 3-4, 5-6. Maybe those separate pairs need to be activated with their respective controlling knob in order for all 6 to be controlled from 1? I haven't tried this myself, as I have mine set to stereo pair trims.

If that doesn't work, try resetting all your Input Link and Trim Link settings and starting over.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 11, 2024, 11:04:36 AM
Make sure all channels you wish to gain link are record armed.  I assume trim-link functionality is the same on F6 as F8, in which case you should be able to trim-link across various channel pairs as long as they are armed/activated.   

Also, be aware that if you had the gain trims set differently for some of the channels prior to gain-linking them, they will be forced identical to the others once the link is established.  That's not immediately obvious when linking.  I wish that was not the case and instead any desired gain offset one might want would be preserved even when linked for simultaneous adjustment, but unfortunately not.  At least not with current firmware.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: spyder9 on March 11, 2024, 01:48:17 PM
I link my channels in pairs:  1-2  3-4  5-6   I have never linked all 6.  My channels could have up to 3 pairs of mics, with each set having a different sensitivity.  So linking all 6 wasn't feasible for me.  My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: al w. on March 11, 2024, 03:15:59 PM
Thanks friends!
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: mepaca on March 11, 2024, 03:18:53 PM
I'm double checking my F6's setup for some shows this week, and something is making me wonder if I'm crazy.

I swear that the last time I taped, I was able to link all 6 tracks together so that I could enable all tracks simply by turning the knob for track 1. However, today, when I turned the track 1 knob, only tracks 1 and 2 turned on (because they are a stereo pair).

I assumed this was controlled by the trim link setting, but when I trim link all tracks together (setting all tracks to "Group A"), the behavior doesn't change... am I misremembering? I could have sworn I was able to make it work this way, and I liked being able to control everything from one knob.

 ???
In the menu select REC and then select file format. Now select poly instead of mono/stereo. That should do it.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 11, 2024, 05:16:29 PM
I link my channels in pairs:  1-2  3-4  5-6   I have never linked all 6.  My channels could have up to 3 pairs of mics, with each set having a different sensitivity.  So linking all 6 wasn't feasible for me.  My 2 cents.

This expounds upon what I was getting at. Spyder has it setup as three separate trim-linked pairs.  Each pair can have it's gain-trim set and adjusted differently from the others, but any trim difference between the two channels of any one pair is eliminated as soon as that pair link is established. This is how most tapers will want to set their recorders up, and it works fine as long as both mics of each pair are well matched with identical sensitivities and/or the level of the board patch remains balanced across both channels.  That way, whenever you need to change trim level across all 6 channels while recording, you can do so by adjusting 3 knobs (one for each pair) without messing up the level balance of each pair while making the adjustment. Beats having to adjust 6 separate knobs quickly and accurately for sure, however changes in trim of the separate pairs will not happen in sync, or necessarily by the same amount. 

Unfortunately that arrangement doesn't work for what I'm looking to achieve, which is to retain the relative gain relationships across all input channels, while being able to adjust trim of all of them in unison and by the same amount with a single knob tweak.  Because of this I'm forced to give up the nicety of dialing in the different relative gains I would like to have for each channel, and instead just go ahead and link all channels with forced identical gains, then later make the relative gain adjustments I need afterward in post.  Makes for a bit more work, but at least any trim adjustments made in the field effect all channels simultaneously and by the same amount, which is manageable.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: Gutbucket on March 11, 2024, 05:21:23 PM
In the menu select REC and then select file format. Now select poly instead of mono/stereo. That should do it.

Are you sure? If so that quirk is specific to the F6.   F8 allows mono files and all channels trim linked in anyway combination you like.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: voltronic on March 11, 2024, 10:46:10 PM
In the menu select REC and then select file format. Now select poly instead of mono/stereo. That should do it.

Are you sure? If so that quirk is specific to the F6.   F8 allows mono files and all channels trim linked in anyway combination you like.

Yeah there's zero chance the file format has anything to do with this.
Title: Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
Post by: al w. on March 21, 2024, 05:39:11 PM
Just to close this off: I was mistaken. I don't think I ever was able to control all 6 channels from one knob.

All good though :) Thanks again