Topic: blumlien? M/S?

[Lee]

Anticipating the new arrival of some ADK 51TLs on 12/9 and was wondering about blumlien...

Does this require any kind of crazy decoder like M/S?  Or is it just as simple of plugging the mic with the front lobe facing left into the left channel, right lobe forward in right channel, and running like normal?

Also, I don't have access to a preamp with M/S decoding... is there any way to do this in post process?  I was thinking run the fig-8 into one channel, the card/hyper/whatever into another channel an doing the decoding in wavelab or something.  Can this be done?

[dmonterisi]

yes and yes.

[Lee]

+T, anyone have the line on a m/s plugin for wavelab?

[Tim]

Lemme dig it up for you... it comes bundled but you gotta know where to find it!

[dmonterisi]

if you search on here, it's around, i think wes posted it once, so look under his posts in the computer section.

[Tim]

I posted it in the computer section too

[Tim]

Here ya go:

Go to options->organize master section plugins

okay now scroll down the list until you see VST, double click and scroll down the new list until you get to Tools One

Highlight Tools One and click on key sequence... I assigned into to F5

close that out, press F5 (or whatever you choose) and it should just pop up

[Lee]

gestapo-ed post

[Tim]

I'd send it to you if I had my laptop right now... I had someone send it to me over AOL. I bet you can find a free version

[nic]

moke,

correct me if I'm wrong(been a while since I read up on Blumlein)
the capsules are set up on the same vertical plane as x/y, turned at 90* so the "8"'s cross each other like a clover?

what would be a good application and location for this config?

[nic]

which is l/r, or would it really matter?

[nic]

hmmm, I wonder what running this through a m/s decoder would sound like. . .

[Sean Gallemore]

can you put a plate (like a J-disc) on the rear side of the mics to block out noise in the rear lobes, like putting a plate behind a hyper?

[Kwonfidelity]

M/S can be done post.  Actually, post is preferred 99% of the time.  And you don't have to have a fancy preamp, a daw plug in, or any of that crap.  As long as you have software that can handle more than two channels, anyone out there can make an m/s recording in post...in short, invert the fig.8 mic, pan hard right.  the uninverted, pan hard left.  mid mic mono mixed to center.  there's your m/s, adjust pan to create variable stereo image...that's an abridged version....

[Lee]

stupid question... I'm assuming if you did what kwonfidelity (robert is it?) is talking about, the "front" of the mic would be pointed left while recording and the "back" of the mic pointed right, right?

[Lee]

that is the "side" mic, Lee

It is a figure of eight capsule, mounted 90* to the mid mic as a coincident pair.
right = front cap, left = rear cap, or what ever combo best works for you.

Yeah, I get the concept, but I'm assuming:

M+S=left channel, where the +S is the "in phase" version of the fig8 signal.  "In phase" meaning the front cap is pointed in that direction.

M-S=right channel, where -s is the "reverse phase" version of the fig8 signal.  "Reverse phase" meaning the rear cap is pointed in that direction.

Like this:
(card center channel omitted for clarity.  Assume "OO" is a figure of eight microphone)

   _____________
   SOUND SOURCE
   ---------------------        
(M+S)->OO<-(M-S)
<----"front" of mic pointed this way

Am I making sense as to what my question is?

[Sean Gallemore]

sounds right! I'm not sure many could tell if the mic was pointed the opposite direction, unless thet studied the bands stereo mixing of shows carefully.

[Nick's Picks]

it would sound like crap.

the figure of 8 pattern has a front and back, with the back lobe being out of phase.  It definately sounds different than the front, but probably not in our application.  Back when I was researching the Royer SF-12 stereo mic (ribbon blumlein stereo), I was sent a demo disc w/all sorts of studio takes w/their various figure of 8 mics.  Lots of the tracks utilized this technique on guitar and vocals.
They (the engineers) were constantly tweaking the direction of the capsule to get a little different take on whatever they were micing.  Sometimes it sounds best backwards.

but...for stereo recording, just set them up EXACTLY as if you were running XY.  right mic is left channel, left mic is right channel.  Instead of cardioid, you use fo8 and there you go.

The rear lobes of the blumlein pair are out of phase (as one lobe is left/forward where the other is rear right, and so forth), and it helps to provide that killer spatial sence that blumlein produces.  
It can work at a distance as well.  I pulled some pretty nice blumlein stuff w/the Soundfield from outdoor tapers sections way up in the lawn at  shows last summer.
it shines FOB though.  See Wes's 11-1 MSG panic recording for refference.  sweeeetttt!
On stage?  Forget about any other type of config (except M-S).  it just so damn real, its scary.

Blumlein images like a bastard, provides killer soundstage depth and basicly will reproduce EXACTLY what you hear....so dont use it if you hear lots of room...because that is how your recording will come out.  It is not one of those "unforgiving" stereo configs like NOS DIN XY..etc.

[Nick's Picks]

ahhh...I see I chimed in late.  My post is "out of phase"...
I was responding to the "running ms on a blumlein recording" comment on page 1.

Mid-Side recording.
I would like to do more of.  I really nailed some nice ones w/the soundfield and the big AKG c422 I used to have.  
I never ran the matrix in post though.  Always live, on the fly.  And I dont think that I ever pulled a dud that way.  Well, once (TOO, boston last fall).

The KEY to mixing it successfuly on the fly?
Etymotics.