Topic: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10

[HouserPhan]

So, I just purchased one of these recorders, and I'm pretty excited about it.  I primarily bought it to record my band's practices and shows, but will probably use it at some "real" concerts as well. 

I was hoping you guys could give me some advice here.  Our practice room is pretty small (12x12) and there are 4 of us crammed in there (2 guitars, drums, bass).  I will definitely be experimenting with different settings, placement, etc, but I was wondering what might be a good place to start as far as the rec level (auto or manual and, if manual, what setting) and mic sensitivity given the conditions (it can get pretty loud in the room).  I take it that, with the levels shown on the main screen and the green and red lights at each mic, that there is some ideal range you should try to stay within while adjusting the level? 

Also, I'm not really up to speed on the ideal mic direction in relation to the way the band is set up... basically, we all face each other with amps and PA sort of aimed towards the center of the room... is the center of the room the best place to record from?

Can't wait to try this thing out.

[ScoobieKW]

I ran my M10 with internal mics for a month or so until I picked my mics.

Sample rate 48K, Bit Depth 24.
The advantage to using bit Depth of 24 is that you have extra dynamic range, ie volume, to work with. If you record with peaks hitting -12db (green lights on your M10) then you can convert to CD quality 44/16 and have a nice strong signal with little chance of hitting the limiter or clipping.

Limiter on.
Sometimes, you get the gain settings wrong. The limiter is preferable to clipping as it preserves the sound of the recording better.

Automatic Gain Control: OFF
AGC works by setting your gain levels high, then lowering them when you hit the limiter or clip. Works for speach but makes for a less than ideal music recording.


Sensitivity: Low
High sensitivity is a setting range for speach. Even unamplified music usually falls in the low setting range.


Gain: Try 2-3 for Rock. The goal is to have the green lights lighting up occasionally. If you see red, then it's hitting the limiter.


In Menu > Detail Menu > Cross Memory Recording. Select on. This way if you fill your memory card it will seamlessly start recording to the M10's internal 4GB memory.

Enjoy, I love my M10. Sounds great, and then excels with external mics.

[fmaderjr]

Limiter on.
Sometimes, you get the gain settings wrong. The limiter is preferable to clipping as it preserves the sound of the recording better.

Yes! Most everyone says limiter off, but if you successessfully set levels so that it doesn't kick in it can't have any negative effect on the recording.  If it does occasionally kick in, it will definitely sound better than clipping (unless your levels are set way too high).

My limiter has always been on, but it has almost never kicked in. The few times my levels temporarily went a bit into the red, the recording still sounded OK.

[HouserPhan]

Thanks!  Is turning the limiter on/off something you do in the menus or is it a switch?

[HouserPhan]

Also, are you referring to the "rec level" wheel when you talk about "gain" setting?

[stevetoney]

Limiter on/off is a switch on the back of the M10.

Yes, gain setting is the wheel.

My 2 cents...as long as you don't set the recorder over 4 or 5, you'll be OK as long as you don't get red lights.  If you use a setting over 4, the M10 internal preamp gain setting is above unity gain and you could get distortion even if the red lights don't appear.  The higher the setting above unity gain / 4 or 5, the more likely you are to get distortion even if the red lights don't come on.  But as long as you stay below 4 or 5 on the wheel, you won't hear any distortion until you see red lights (but even then you might not hear any distortion, especially if you have the limiter on). 

In practice then, what I do is start at 4 and back off from there if my levels are too high.  But going in the other direction, if I start at 4 and my levels aren't high enough, I just live with my levels peaking at a lower level because I don't want to risk distorting my recording.  In that case, I will use my software to normalize my levels upwards in post because you can always fix a clean recording in post, but you can't fix a distorted recording.  Using 24bit recording setting allows you to do this because there is ample data information available so that the recording quality won't degrade as a result of bumping levels in post.  If you record in 16bit, there's not as much data and the recording might not sound as good if you have to adjust levels too much in post...this is why everyone uses 24bit now instead of 16...it's like having more pixels in a digital photo...you don't see the difference from far away, but you sure do when you get up close!

[ScoobieKW]

Missed the placement question.

Easy answer? Walk around and listen. Wherever it sounds most balanced between the different instruments is the "Sweet Spot'

Your M10 has a 1/4 inch threaded insert on it's bottom. If the sweet spot is in the middle of the room, use one of these on top of a mic stand. Or a camera tripod.

http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I

Steve

[Javier Cinakowski]

I think you have that backwards and wrong tonedeaf.  Please correct me if I am wrong or missing something.   

Between 4-6 is unity for the line-in setting as measured by guysonic and others (line-in to line-out).  I am not sure anyone has measured unity for the internal mic.  How could you measure that, we don't know what the sensitivity of the internal mics are, nor the gain structure of the mic preamp (which is different than the line-in structure).

Furthermore, the M10's internal preamp does not distort at any level from 2-10. Even if we assume that unity for internal mics is also 4-6, your post still doesn't make sense to me.  Yes, above 4 is no longer unity, but there is no distortion, just increased noise.  Why would increasing the gain of a quiet signal cause distortion on a properly working gain stage?  Below 2, you run the risk of brickwall distortion, only if the SPL's are above 128...(as measured by guysonic)  Between 2 and 10 should be perfectly fine at any SPL below 128.(or any line level below 21dbu)  Between 4-6 is ideal for noise as you are introducing less gain, but above 6 should not cause any audible distortion what-so-ever...

[Javier Cinakowski]

To make this simple:

Sony M10 Knob settings:

1-2:    Poor (risk brickwalling with mic signals above 128SPL or line signals above 21dbu)
2-4:    Good (risk attenuation noise)
4-6:    ideal (unity gain)
6-10:  Good (risk gain noise)

[fmaderjr]

To make this simple:

Sony M10 Knob settings:

1-2:    Poor (risk brickwalling with mic signals above 128SPL or line signals above 21dbu)
2-4:    Good (risk attenuation noise)
4-6:    ideal (unity gain)
6-10:  Good (risk gain noise)

I might add that above 7 the recorder adds virtually no gain as mentioned by tonedeaf when the M10 came out. One of the few things one might quibble about with this recorder.

[HouserPhan]

This is probably a dumb question, but I suppose recording in MP3 mode is a sin?  Given that in most instances, I will only be using it to record practice for use by band members (to work out arrangements, changes, etc), and not for any type of pubilc distribution or archiving, I thought I would save myself the steps of converting the files to MP3.  I like the idea of marking and dividing the tracks on the device and simply plugging in the USB and drag / dropping the files onto the computer for quick distribution to band members.

If I don't plan to do any tinkering with the files via software after the fact, is there an advantage to recording in anything but MP3 mode?   If you are going to convert files to MP3 anyway (for ease of distribution and getting them on an ipod) is there any advantage or reason to record in one of the higher quality formats? 

[HouserPhan]

Limiter on/off is a switch on the back of the M10.

Is this switch called something besides "limiter"?  Looking at the pics on line, the only switches I see on the back are:

1) Mic Sensitivity (high / low)
2) Record Level (manual / auto)
3) DPC - Speed Control (on / off)

[ScoobieKW]

RE: MP3

You can always convert down to MP3 and have a quality output. Converting up from MP3 will never be as good as an original wav.

Also note the advantages to 24 bit recording we were mentioning above. Recording to MP3 will lose this advantage as it uses 16bit.

Who knows? Maybe you will catch some of that magic and want to do something with it. Bonus track? Internet download for fans with a bit of compression and mastering? Result will be much better if your original file is lossless.

Hard drive space is cheap, and converting to MP3 is painless.

I vote for WAV.

[ScoobieKW]

Limiter on/off is a switch on the back of the M10.

Is this switch called something besides "limiter"?  Looking at the pics on line, the only switches I see on the back are:

1) Mic Sensitivity (high / low)
2) Record Level (manual / auto)
3) DPC - Speed Control (on / off)

The Limiter is turned on in software. Menu > Details Menu > Limiter.

The manual does cover a lot of this...

[fmaderjr]

I vote for wave as well.

A good computer mp3 decoder will likely do a better job than one included in a recorder. Not worth the risk to record to mp3 directly. How long will the extra step take?

I would also recommend experimenting with doing your tracking on the computer. It should be much faster when you have a wave form to look at. The might also be some "dead" spaces in your recording that you might want to remove and since it's best to record with levels peaking at -12 dB or so, it would be best if you raised the peak level of the recording to near 0 dB as well. None of this simple stuff takes much time and would probably result in a more satisfying recording to listen to.