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Offline youngsbest

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Upgrade advice
« on: December 29, 2010, 12:01:47 PM »
I have been running SP CMC 4s with a 3 wire battery box and the MM Sennheiser MKE2s via a bb into an Edirol RO9.  For a lot of shows I run mic in low sens, though if it's very loud will go line in.

I'm looking to upgrade.  I think that the mics are fine, and to improve on what I have will be a lot of money.  I'm thinking of a Sony M10, and a pre-amp.  Funds are limited, so what should I go for first?  Will I see an improvement with a pre into the RO9, or how would the M10 be without a pre?  Would the pre & M10 be the best combination?  I have never had any level issues without a pre before, so it's a case of how how significant an improvement a pre would be with the M10.  Also why is the M10 so expensive in the UK compared to the US (OK, you can't answer that one).

Any advice gratefully received.

Offline Belexes

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2010, 01:11:05 PM »
I'd get the M10 first, then consider a pre after that.
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline sunjan

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2010, 06:30:28 PM »
With your current rigs, how much gain do you typically add?
Supposedly, M10 has cleaner gain than the R-09, so you could get the M10 first, and see whether you're satisfied with going mic-in and relying on the built-in gain. If not, shopping for a pre would be the second step.

Next factor to consider, how are your mics terminated? 2 x mini-XLR, 2 x TRS or exotic solutions like y-cable with 5-pin mini-XRL?
If each pair are wired differently, you need to decide which input jacks your pre should have, and possible rewire the mics to make them compatible.

I agree that the Sony pricing for Europe is annoying. Maybe it has to do with EU customs/taxes, the USD exchange rate also plays a part for sure. At the end of the day, Sony set this price because they think they can get away with it:
because Europeans are used to pay a premium for their brand,
because the depression hasn't hit us as hard as the US,
because the competition between retailers is less fierce and the market is more fragmented in the EU,
because online retailers, ebay and comparison shopping isn't as matured as it is in the US,
because EU retailers have a higher markup/gross margin,
I'm just guessing...
Mics: A-51s LE, CK 930, Line Audo CM3, AT853Rx (hc,c,sc),  ECM 121, ECM 909A
Pres: Tinybox, CA-9100, UA5 wmod
Recorders: M10, H116 (CF mod), H340, NJB3
Gearbag: High Sierra Corkscrew
MD transfers: MZ-RH1. Tape transfers: Nak DR-1
Photo rig: Nikon D70, 18-70mm/3.5-4.5, SB-800

Offline Will_S

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2010, 09:53:59 PM »
if you are finding that mic in low sensitivity or even line in gives you sufficient gain, I'm not sure you'll really get a significant improvement using a preamp or M10.  What aspect of your current recordngs do you feel needs improvement?  unless you find them too noisy, I think saving up to replace the AT853s is the most sensible step.

Offline burris

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2010, 11:40:08 PM »
Mics are everything.  Getting a new deck or pre won't make much difference, audio quality-wise.  Any money you spend on anything the mics plug into would be better spent on mics.  Keep saving and get better mics later.

Offline youngsbest

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2010, 06:39:05 AM »
Thanks very much for the advice.  I'm not unhappy with the quality of the sound, but wondered if I would notice an improvement with a new recorder or preamp.  As almost all concerts in the UK have to be stealth, so I guess when you get to a certain level of equipment everything depends on the location.  I have got some great recordings and not so great recordings, so an upgrade could be hit or miss.  But you know how it is, you have a hobby and a bit of spare cash...

Offline acidjack

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2010, 08:06:20 AM »
I do think the M10 is a better-sounding deck than the R-09. And similarly, technically speaking, a little preamp like a CA9100 will provide cleaner gain.

BUT

if you are recording loud rock shows, I don't think it makes much difference.   You already have two of the better mic sets in that price range.  You could try a different omni mic like the Countryman B3s, which won't set you back a ton (I think $300) and are supposedly comparable to the DPA 406x series mics. 

Otherwise, I'd say you either are looking at getting larger mics that can be run stealth OR you're talking about the DPA 406x mics.  The DPAs are great mics, but they don't come cheap, and being omni, also aren't as versatile.  That is also of course true of the other HQ small mics, the Countrymans and the Nevatons. 
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline sunjan

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2010, 08:08:39 AM »
I suppose you could upgrade the mics too.
Since you already run CMC4 (AT853 caps), other mics in the price range would be more of a lateral move, unless you're willing to spend more bucks.
Have you read this thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139501.msg1805197#msg1805197

Perhaps it wouldn't be a huge difference getting a pair of CA-14, but they are going cheap. Maybe Chris can give you a package deal with a pre?
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=141135.0

Some early R-09 had hardware issues with the line-in jack. Some broke, other might break later on. That could be a justification to sell/retire it and upgrade the recorder first, if you need an argument.  ;D

It all boils down to how much you'd like to spend, and if you like to collect more gear, or are willing to sell your current pieces to increase your budget for better stuff.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 08:14:22 AM by sunjan »
Mics: A-51s LE, CK 930, Line Audo CM3, AT853Rx (hc,c,sc),  ECM 121, ECM 909A
Pres: Tinybox, CA-9100, UA5 wmod
Recorders: M10, H116 (CF mod), H340, NJB3
Gearbag: High Sierra Corkscrew
MD transfers: MZ-RH1. Tape transfers: Nak DR-1
Photo rig: Nikon D70, 18-70mm/3.5-4.5, SB-800

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 10:24:05 AM »
I have AT853's and an R09 with battery box and ST9100 preamp, and I've run that a lot.  It's good gear, and I think if you spend hundred$ on a new recorder or mics you might be disappointed with the tiny improvement you would get.  There may be some opportunity to "optimize" what you have.  Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 10:32:25 AM »
You haven't even told us what kind of music you record, and at what distances.  And you still haven't really told us what you don't like about the recordings.  You haven't mentioned what config you run your caps in.  Etc.

I doubt that the r09 is holding you back.

Offline youngsbest

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 12:17:53 PM »
Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
Only stealth
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
No, but have rewired the stock CMC 4s as 3 wire
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
Very quiet unamplified piano, jazz in small clubs, rock in concert halls and arenas
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
Stock cardioid
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Given it's always stealth, the omnis are spaced a few feet apart, the cardioids a lot closer together.

My question was about whether by upgrading to an M10 or using a pre I would hear an improvement - greater clarity, more sense of space, firmer bass.
I can see that if I use a pre and go line in for unamplified piano, instead of mic in, then I will be adding better quality gain, but this may not be a very noticeable difference.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 12:26:32 PM »
Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
Only stealth
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
No, but have rewired the stock CMC 4s as 3 wire
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
Very quiet unamplified piano, jazz in small clubs, rock in concert halls and arenas
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
Stock cardioid
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Given it's always stealth, the omnis are spaced a few feet apart, the cardioids a lot closer together.

My question was about whether by upgrading to an M10 or using a pre I would hear an improvement - greater clarity, more sense of space, firmer bass.
I can see that if I use a pre and go line in for unamplified piano, instead of mic in, then I will be adding better quality gain, but this may not be a very noticeable difference.

You dont need a new recorder.. The one you have is fine. I sent you a pm.

Chris
for warranty returns email me at
EMAIL Sales@church-audio.com

Offline acidjack

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 12:40:56 PM »
Based on the below it sounds like the R-09 is holding you back, since that thing has a noisy preamp.  In your case a Church pre would be worth it, I'd think, given the type of music you record.

FWIW I do not think your mic patterns (XY, DIN, etc) are likely your problem.  Your placement in the room might be.  Are you wearing the mics on your head, at least?  Especially if you aren't especially tall, clipping mics to your collar or shoulders is really unadvisable in terms of sound quality.

Before I offer much advice, I'd like to hear more about your situation...
- are you primarily stealthing or open taping?
Only stealth
- do you have the "low sensitivity mod" on your mics?
No, but have rewired the stock CMC 4s as 3 wire
- do you record loud rock shows or acoustic (barely amplified) type stuff?
Very quiet unamplified piano, jazz in small clubs, rock in concert halls and arenas
- what capsules do you have?  Probably just the stock cardioid?
Stock cardioid
- how do you usually arrange your mics?  XY, DIN, or "I dunno, just pointing towards stage I guess"?
Given it's always stealth, the omnis are spaced a few feet apart, the cardioids a lot closer together.

My question was about whether by upgrading to an M10 or using a pre I would hear an improvement - greater clarity, more sense of space, firmer bass.
I can see that if I use a pre and go line in for unamplified piano, instead of mic in, then I will be adding better quality gain, but this may not be a very noticeable difference.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline SmokinJoe

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 11:26:01 PM »
That's good info.

Based on what you said, I personally don't think the R09 is holding you back.  If you are getting a lot of hiss, then you could replace it with M10 and gain some benefit, but I think a preamp such as the ST9100 sold by Chris Church would get you more benefit.  I expect an R09 with an ST9100 in front of it will sound more detailed than an M10 alone, and I presume your budget allows one, or the other, but not both.  Since you have the 3 wire mics, you need a power supply (battery box or preamp) in the chain anyway, and that preamp will get you 20db of gain with basically no noise.  If you were starting out from scratch my advice would be to buy the M10, but since you have the R09, keep it because it's not the weakest link in the chain when you can run line-in.

The other thing is keep an eye out for the AT853 subcards.  They are hard to find, but to my ear they sound a lot better than the standard cards caps in every situation I've tried.  I have a pair and use them rarely on special occasions.  I once ran AT853 subcards > ST9100 > analog into an H120, and it sounded a lot better than the AKG481 > V3 > R4 tape I made side by side that night.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 11:39:56 PM by SmokinJoe »
Mics: Schoeps MK4 & CMC5's / Gefell M200's & M210's / ADK-TL / DPA4061's
Pres: V3 / ST9100
Decks: Oade Concert Mod R4Pro / R09 / R05
Photo: Nikon D700's, 2.8 Zooms, and Zeiss primes
Playback: Raspberry Pi > Modi2 Uber > Magni2 > HD650

Offline acidjack

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 10:09:42 AM »
^^^ This is right.  Sorry, I should have been more specific - the R-09 is holding you back only in the sense that you're relying on its preamp.   With an external preamp it is fine.  To some extent, the M10 preamp is also an improvement, but I would think an external pre + the R-09 is better/cheaper move.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 10:26:47 AM »
Non-amplified piano, along with classical guitar, are among the most difficult sources to record from the audience.

A great result will require a Lot of quiet gain, quiet mics, and being very close.  I've used 55 dB of gain recording classical guitar from the front row with Schoeps.  At those high gain levels, directional mics are important for their ability to reject other noises in the room.  Most smaller mics have fairly high self-noise when compared to phantom powered mics.

I haven't used Chris' pre-amps, but I think that is probably your best option.  It will have excellent resale value, should you decide to go in a different direction.  The m10's lower noise would be an improvement vs. running direct into the r09, but I don't see it solving the big picture issues.

As others have said, mics are also very important.  The mic pattern you run is also really important.

Fwiw, I went from a 722 to an r09.  I always run with great pre-amps, and schoeps, Gefells or DPAs. I lost a bit of detail with the r09 vs. the 722, but not that much.  The m10 might be a slight improvement, but there is no way I'd give up running a great pre-amp (especially on quiet sources).

Offline ninjadave

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2011, 10:36:55 PM »
to continue this thread with a slightly more specific quesiton...i'm in the same boat, having recorded with R9 and Tascam DR-2d and CAFS omni, CA-14, AT853, AT933 (all cards) in my past. looking to move to a set of beyers ck930 and or nevatons mce400s. i tape mostly loud classic rock gigs, rush, styx, MAC, similar....large arenas or sheds...i also tape acoustic music, almost exclusively the indigo girls, both with and without the band (in 2000 seat theaters mostly or small sheds and such) and also AmyRay solo, which she mostly playes small clubs/bar type venues. i've used mics on glasses and last few years, used a hat, current is a nice kangol with mesh front, mounting mics on the front lid (wearing it normally), cable out the back and the mics usually pointing a little to the outside, like rabbit ears at a angle, but they are pretty close together, probably 4-5 inches apart at the most.

i mostly stack tape, usually trying to set up in front of the right or left stack in full line to get maximum sound pressure and clarity (as opposed to close and middle), distance usually in front of the board, rows 15-25 genearlly....i've pulled good shows and avg shows from similar spots, and of course avg shows with less than optimal seats (sometimes too close and middle). i've pulled an incredible show at the old mellon arena, i was 3/4 way back in the fourth row off the floor and its probably the best show i've ever pulled, fleetwood mac's opening gig in 09'. when i got my seats, i'm thinking this gig is going to blow sound wise, the gig sounded amazing in the arena (soundman?) and it translated very well to the recorder. i guess the soundman can't be controlled and its possible some gigs will NEVER sound good with bad sound to begin with....however...its not all that bad.....here are some of the shows up on dime with samples.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?returnto=%2Faccount-cp.php&id=240479
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?returnto=%2Faccount-cp.php&id=323815

i'm really at a point that i'm willing to spend some cash to get a better rig if the results are going to be there. i've listened to stack shows of rush and similar bands with schoeps and other high end mics, they are noticiably better, with cleaner bass and highs (although i don't care for the overall sound of schoeps or the price!! *ducking* - heh), but you know what i mean. i've got some rush gigs coming in april, i have pretty good stack seats (17th, 25th and 30th row for each) and i want good pulls. maybe i should be satisfied with what i've done but i know i can do better and i'm slightly worried that is could be mic position, etc. but stealth taping is pretty limited. any thoughts on this i would appreciate. i don't tape a lot of shows really, most of the shows i do attend i do tape however, rarely excepted but when i do tape and take the effort, i want it to be worth it otherwise, i'll just enjoy the dam show and dance around instead. :)

my proposed future rig is beyers ck930>bodies>PMD661 oade CM and or the nevatons mce400 with same brick and maybe moving to the tinybox 2 (no bodies) with R9 (HR) or tascam DR-2d. my worry about this is getting all the gear in, cables, mic bodies, possible patch cables and a bigger recorder, i have ideas on this and i think i can do it, its just is it all going to pay off. would appreciate some candid thoughts.....i am nearly out of time, need to make a decision this week so i have all the parts by early april....thanks everyone.
Mics = Milab VM-44 Links [c] ~ AT853 [c,o] 
Preamp/BB = Naiant IPA (v1) ~ CA-UGLY [+20db]
Recorders = Marantz PMD661 (Oade CM) ~ Sony PCM-A10
Playback = Sony MDR-7506 ~ Rokit 5's

http://ninjasroio.tripod.com/mainpage.html  [needs updated badly]

Offline acidjack

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2011, 08:06:43 AM »
If you can run the beyers with bodies OK for lowpro work then I think beyers>661 is the best thing in your price range that can be bought now. If you aren't a fan of the mk4, then the best thing after the Beyers is DPA 402x which will be more like $2300 used (what I use, although I don't stealth much).  In omni mics you've also got the Nevatons and the DPA 4061 (more suitable for stack taping loud rock).  The 4061s and the Countryman B3 (which are much less expensive) have the advantage of that they can be "chopped" to a stereo miniplug and run off of an inexpensive Church Audio pre (the pre + chopping fee will be about $180).  So the first question is, do you want omnis or cards?  If you want omnis you have a much shorter route since you can just buy some mics to go with the gear you have now (unless you get the Nevatons, which require P48). Personally, unless you're set on the Nevaton sound (which I do hear is fantastic) I'd consider the DPA 4061 or Countryman B3 instead solely b/c they don't need P48.  Some folks have had success running those mics off the plug in power of their decks directly, though I would probably not try that for stack taping rock.

If you had a bit more time, supposedly there will be an AKG ck6x caps>tinybox> rig coming soon from mshilarious, a member of this board.  He knows more about the timing of that than I do.  Supposedly he can also work a solution with the Beyer ck930 caps and the tinybox without bodies.   

If I did mostly stealth, I'd probably run an Oade Mod 661 and my DPAs.  I think the 661 is a good choice as long as you think the 661 will be easy enough to get into the shows you want to go to.  Just consider the form factor carefully, as it's a good bit bigger than your R-09.  I run the Denecke PS/2>M10 for low profile situations and for very-low-profile either the Audix 1280s with Church cables or the DPA 4061.  I say I'd go with the 661 because it's all in one and sounds better probably, but OTOH if you keep your small deck you can preserve flexibility by getting different pres and BBs for your needs; for example, an Aerco MP-2 ($700 new) is the smallest P48 pre and is incredible sounding; you could run that for some shows, and for REALLY stealth shows, something smaller.

Otherwise, you could just keep your R-09 and get a VERY basic P48 box like the denecke PS/2, which is phantom power only (no amplification, meaning you use the recorder's pre) and run that with the beyers or any other P48 mic like the nevatons. it's nothing fancy, but it sounds fine.  Then you could eventually get an AKG>tinybox setup when that rolls out.

All that said, if you mostly stack tape and are set on the Nevatons they are great mics from what I've heard, comparable to the DPA 4061, and there are some in the YS right now for less than $400.  You could get those bad boys and a PS/2 for a total of under $500 and be ready to roll.



« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:30:36 AM by acidjack »
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline kinglerxst

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Re: Upgrade advice
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2011, 10:00:20 AM »
>any thoughts on this i would appreciate

AT Sub-Cardioid!!!  :)

 

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