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Author Topic: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video  (Read 8715 times)

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Offline mdogbucket

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combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« on: December 21, 2009, 10:44:46 PM »
I posted the same question in the computer forum but have not gotten any answers in the last two days, so I thought this might be a better place.


My friend and I have been recording live music using stereo mics into a Korg MR-1000 DSD recorder.  Now we are video taping as well using one of the new Sony HD AVC-HD camcorders.  The problem is how to most efficiently and easily put the high res audio together with the HD video.

Is anybody doing the same thing?  I would like to do it two ways.

1. combining and synching the HD video with our audio at 24bit/96k or even 16bit/44.1.
2. dumbing down the HD video to something like DVD quality and combining and synching the audio

We were thinking of buying Sony Vegas Platinum pro.  Any thoughts?

Offline Ken Kaiser

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2009, 11:41:34 PM »
I had done a bit of this in older versions of Premiere Elements, and it seemed to work OK with 16 or 24 bit / 44.1Khz, but it needed to "render" the audio.  I don't know what kind of impact that had on the audio, but other than being slow it sounded OK.

Now whenever I record for video though, I set the recorder to 16-bit/48Khz, same as the video, and it drops right in the timeline with no issues.

Offline mdogbucket

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2009, 11:56:55 PM »
I'm fine with dropping in 16 bit/48k audio, but I will be down-converting from the original files recorded at DSD 1 bit/5.6mHz.

I guess I am really wondering if Sony Vegas Platinum pro lets you replace the crappy sounding audio that your HD camera picked up with the high quality stereo I capture with my mics and Korg recorder?

Offline Ken Kaiser

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2009, 12:07:35 AM »
I don't have Vegas, I've only used Adobe, but from everything I've heard I have to believe you can no problem.  I suppose to be 100% sure though wait for someone who has/uses it to respond.

Offline tedyun

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2009, 02:13:32 PM »
I've used older versions of Sony Vegas, and Final Cut Pro, and the newer versions should be similar.

When you open video footage in the timeline, the video track and audio tracks are separated. You can then overlay your alternate audio in a separate track and "slide" it around to sync it with the original audio.

I haven't found a more accurate way to do this other than by manual. Generally, you can zoom in on the timeline and try to visually line up peaks, such as a drum beat or vocals, then let your ears do the rest.

Once you have everything lined up, you can delete the original audio. I think in FCP, you had to "unlink" the original audio from the video. I can't remember if Vegas does the same thing.

The problem I had when I did this is that when I rendered the final file for DVD output, the audio would unsync with the video.



I'm fine with dropping in 16 bit/48k audio, but I will be down-converting from the original files recorded at DSD 1 bit/5.6mHz.

I guess I am really wondering if Sony Vegas Platinum pro lets you replace the crappy sounding audio that your HD camera picked up with the high quality stereo I capture with my mics and Korg recorder?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 12:46:20 PM by tedyun »
Mics: B&K 4011, Schoeps MK5 (Nbobs, Naiant PFA), Busman BSC-1 (K11/K21/K31/K41 caps), Church CA-14 (o, c), Church CAFS, Core Sound Binaurals
Pre: EAA PSP-2,  Lunatec V3, Nbox-Platinum, Church CA-9200
ADC: Mytek 192 ADC, Oade Mod SBM-1
Rec: Oade Supermod PMD-661, Tascam DR60D, M-Audio MicroTrack II, Korg MR-1 (32GB SSD mod); Sony PCM-M10, Edirol R09HR; iRiver HP-120
Photo: Canon 5D3, Canon EF-S 17-55mm f2.8, Canon EF 35mm f1.4L Canon EF 24-70 f2.8L MkI, Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L IS MkI, Canon EF 50 mm f1.4, Canon EF 50 f1.2L, Canon EF 300 f/4L IS, Canon EF 100-400 f4-5.6L IS MkI
Video: Canon HF100

Offline markr041

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 07:59:19 PM »
There is a perfect solution: Plural Eyes software, which is a plug-in for either Vegas Pro or FCP. Automatic sync in either. I have used this in Vegas Pro and it works great. I tape concerts in HD and record the audio seprately at 24-bit, 48khz. The final DVD (or AVCHD DVD) contains the video and the 24-bit sound uncompressed and untransformed, without the inferior camera-based audio 9which is used to sync the video to the separate audio track.

http://www.singularsoftware.com/autosync/

Offline willndmb

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 08:17:38 PM »
i tried plural eyes with fcp and it didn't work at all
after a nukmber of emails to tech support and their "fix" i gave up
it was a sweet concept but like i said never worked right
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline markr041

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2009, 10:55:15 PM »
Luckily there is a trial version to try without cost. What was special about your task that it did not work for you but works for thousands of others?

Offline nomotrouble

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2009, 05:53:35 PM »
I've been doing this all year on my mac computer, using final cut and imovie. I record audio on an iriver using at853 mics, and video with a sony hcr hc9 mini dv camcorder. Upload the video, extract the audio, line up the new audio, size it with final cut, then send it to idvd or make a quicktime file. My audio is consistently 9 frames per hour too long, so i adjust it first, then fine tune if necessary, which it rarely requires. Sometimes there are anomalies in the video which require splitting it and making sure it all lines up still.

Offline rsimms3

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2009, 06:23:28 PM »
I use Vegas, but I don't know of any HD format that will render with uncompressed audio into a final HD video format.  I use a Sanyo HD1000 camera which records to .MP4.  I render to AVC first, and then import to Vegas.  From there I go to the beginning of the video to sync both audio sources.  I then go to to the end to compress/expand the audio to match the camera audio since the two don't run exactly the same in their timing.  Then, mute your camera audio, and render to whatever format you want; your camera audio is now replaced.  If you want to go to DVD, render your video in the same way and then render the audio alone into the original format but this render will be your adjusted audio synced to your video.  Load the video into your favorite encoder/dvd creator and replace the audio with your uncompressed rendered audio.  Now you can encode your DVD with uncompressed audio, skipping one generation of loss or encode using uncompressed/synced audio. 

Sample having used this process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5nOJuSGpYc
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Offline mdogbucket

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 10:39:36 PM »
Sample having used this process:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5nOJuSGpYc

That's a really nice looking video.  What format & resolution did you down-convert the high res audio and video to?

Offline rsimms3

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2009, 08:45:53 AM »
My original Sanyo Video was 720p 60fps MP4/AAC.  I ran that through PowerDirector 7 to utilize the Steady filter to reduce shake in the video, rendering to 720p 29.97fps HDV MPEG.  I imported that into Vegas 9.0 to sync the external audio, fade the beginning/end, and explorted again to 720p 29.97 HDV M2T.  I then uploaded that file to YouTube.  In using the Steady filter, you loose some of your sharpness and border as that filter cuts the sides and expands the picture so it can reduce the shakeness.  The more filter you use, the more it crops on the sides and you loose sharpness.  The Sanyo camera has the advantage of being small and portable, but disadvantage of being light weight and routinely has a lot of shake when handheld.  I don't use the built in camera filter to reduce shake as sometimes I get tearing at the bottom of the picture or some other unwanted side effets.  I have looked at upgrading to the next model up, still a couple years old at this point, but haven't felt the need since I shoot very little and I can get by with this camera.  My only real issue is battery life, but fortunately it takes 5v in and can be run on external battery packs so if I am running open, I have plenty of battery options.
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stevetoney

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 09:02:44 AM »
I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but video needs 48khz, so first you need to convert your 44.1 sampling frequency up to 48.

I do it a little bit differently than others.  I first strip out the audio from the video using software the does this (I use DVD Lab Pro for DVD mastering, which includes this capability).  Then I use an audio workstation software, such as Audition to synch up the two audio sources by paralleling them.  I parallel the sources using stretch/shrink and then listening along the timeline of the audio and making whatever adjustments may be necessary to get the two audio sources perfectly paralleled. You don't want to touch the audio that you stripped out because that's of course perfectly synched-up with the video.  Once you have the better audio perfectly parallel with the stripped audio, then obviously it will synch perfectly with your video.  At this point, you can trash the original audio and replace it with the new audio your video mastering software (Again, I used DVD Lab Pro, but many people use Vegas).  Note that you might have to delete some portions of the new audio to compensate for any video drop-outs that may have occurred during video recording.

This method is a little more cumbersome and time consuming than simply stripping the old audio out and using Vegas to stretch or shrink the new audio to fit, but I like my method because a) I never have a problem with synching after I complete this process, and b) my method compensates for any drop outs that may exist in the video.  The simple stretch/shrink method won't compensate for drop-outs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 09:08:53 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline rsimms3

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2009, 11:15:33 AM »
Is there an easy way to sync with Audition?  The only way I have found is very cumbersome by putting both tracks into the Multitrack editor and then shrink/expand one track.  I have Audition 1.5 and it won't shrink/expand in real time so it is almost a guessing game to adjusting as the program has to process the file before showing you the adjustment whereas with Vegas it will do it in real time so I find it much more exacting. 

I usually fill in gaps in the video with still images using a photo slide show.  If it is just a high number of frame drops in a particular section, I just sync as best as possible with the shrink/expand and go from there.  I have been happy with my resulting external audio syncs to this point. 
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stevetoney

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Re: combining 16 bit/44.1k audio with HD video
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2009, 12:56:51 AM »
Is there an easy way to sync with Audition?  The only way I have found is very cumbersome by putting both tracks into the Multitrack editor and then shrink/expand one track.  I have Audition 1.5 and it won't shrink/expand in real time so it is almost a guessing game to adjusting as the program has to process the file before showing you the adjustment whereas with Vegas it will do it in real time so I find it much more exacting. 

I usually fill in gaps in the video with still images using a photo slide show.  If it is just a high number of frame drops in a particular section, I just sync as best as possible with the shrink/expand and go from there.  I have been happy with my resulting external audio syncs to this point.

I haven't used Vegas much for synching audio, so I'm not really sure what you mean when you say 'real time'.  Perhaps I should use it more and then I might abandon using the technique I've mentioned above.

Regardless, I think that both methods essentially do the same thing...you use the stretch/shrink function to line up the original audio against the replacement audio so that the replacement ends up being completely synched/parallel with the original.  Then once the replacement audio is totally paralleled from start to finish, you discard the original audio and remux the video with the replacement. 

Regardless of whether you're using Vegas or Audition, I've found that if the video isn't a continuous video that runs from start to finish but has cuts or drop outs, it makes the process quite a bit more time consuming, but not really all that difficult.  You just have to locate the specific cuts/drop outs and figure out how to change the replacement audio to match.  I'm not sure if that's easier to do in Vegas or Audition, but apparently either tool will accomplish the task.

 

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