Topic: aud mics + onstage mics

[deadheadcorey]

has anyone done a matrix with aud mics and onstage mics?

thoughts? pros vs cons?

thinking of trying it tonight. mics onstage split about 12-15 feet A/B OMNIS. aud mics at soundboard 5' ROC XY CARDS

[tgakidis]

All the time, ran that set up on Friday.  https://archive.org/details/otisgrove2015-02-27.elam260.m60.flac

[Phil Zone]

Do you run the cables through the house snakes?

[danlynch]

I've done this in small clubs where the PA will be primarily vocals and the on-stage is the only way to get the instruments fully captured.
For a standard sized room when everything is going through the PA, you're going to end up with insufficient vocals in the final mix.

[opsopcopolis]

Did it for a Snarky Puppy recording last year.  Came out beautifully.

[Cobiwan]

The only thing I can add is that you might have to add some time delay between the onstage and AUD mics to counter the time difference.

[Gutbucket]

Do you run the cables through the house snakes?

Might be easiest.

time delay between the onstage and AUD mics

^^
Listen closely while playing with the file alignment to dial in the best tight fit.

[phil_er_up]

mics onstage split about 12-15 feet A/B OMNIS. aud mics at soundboard 5' ROC XY CARDS

If you think of the above scenario it is really the same as a SBD feed with a AUD mics in back of the venue. Just position of SBD feed and onstage Mics are different...more of a time difference and phase situation to get right in post exercise. 1 ft = 1 ms in post (nudge factor) play with it till you get it right. I do this all the time with my shows, if the mix's match well and you get it nudged very close to spot on...it can sound very good. Sometimes sources do not mix well for a variety of reasons...never know till you get home...

PS: You can take a tape measure with you to the venue and measure the distance. Have written down for various venues how far from stage to first rail, FOB and BOB distances for a general rule on where to start the nudge.

[2manyrocks]

Unless you monitor the mix on headphones while it's being recorded, the results when you get home can be unexpected.  The balance between instruments and vocals on stage is one thing, and then you have the sometimes odd mix coming out of a board.  Sometimes they are amping guitars and bass from the stage amps with vocals from the PA, and that can be a factor.  Things may sound fine in the room, but I think there is a certain risk in micing on the stage and getting a feed from the board.  It could be great or it could go wrong depending on the relative loudness of what is being captured among what's happening on stage (unless the sources are perfectly balanced on stage), what is being recorded on your mics and what is being recorded from the board.   I think you lessen your risk with a headphone or earbud check of what you're getting. 

The whole question of how to record something when a PA is involved I have not mastered by any means. 

[Gutbucket]

Personally I find no need to actually measure the distances since I'm going to play around with the file alignment until things sound right anyway.  Gives you a starting point I guess, but that's easy enough to find quickly afterwards without a measurement.

These are really three entirely different things: A SBD patch, an AUD pair in the back of the room, and either an on-stage or stage-lip pair.  On-stage/stage-lip+AUD isn't really a close analogy for stage-lip+SBD or for AUD+SBD.

Is the AUD pair in back analogous to the SBD feed?  Not many around here would argue that it is, they are obviously very different.  The AUD has all the room and audience in it and a far more distant perspective on the sound from the stage.  Yet in the case of on-stage+AUD, the AUD is what is going to provide the elements which are heard from the PA that are not picked up on-stage.  Vocals are the most obvious thing in that category, but also things like anything going direct to the board such as acoustic instruments, or other stuff only weakly amplified next to the musician, which relies heavily on the monitors and PA.  Unless you are getting that stuff from an on-stage monitor, it's probably represented very weakly in your on-stage channels.

Is the on-stage/stage-lip analogous to the SBD feed? Not usually, for the same reasons just mentioned.  And that's why on-stage/stage-lip + SBD is often a good way to go when you are restricted to 4 channels.  The only part not mic'd in that case is the room and audience, and you may get enough of that in your on-stage/stage-lip pair anyway and not care for more of it.

[Gutbucket]

For that reason, if you can get a SBD feed, and are allowed to put microphones on the stage, I'd suggest eliminating the AUD pair back at the board.  Just use the on-stage/stage-lip + SBD.

Useful variations on that- (notice that none of these include an AUD pair back by the board)
1) Recording 4 channels: A pair for on-stage/stage-lip + a single mono channel of SBD (which is probably all or mostly mono anyway, why waste two channels recording it?) + a single room/audience-reaction channel (a cardioid or supercard facing away from the stage and into the audience from the stage or stage-lip)
2) Recording 5 channels: Same as 1, but with a stereo pair facing out at the room and audience (wide space the pair at the edges of the stage pointing out into the room, or arrange them some other way to reduce pickup of both the PA and the sound coming from the stage as much as possible.
3) Recording 6 channels: Pair on-stage/stage-lip, pair for the SBD, pair facing out at the audience and room.

All these have your mics located in the same part of the room (on-stage/stage-lip), making things more easily manageable.  They also place all your mics in relative close proximity to the house-mics feeding the PA, so you'll have less aligning to do, and might be able to get away without having to do any.  Although I'd still slide the files around while listening to check if you can get it tighter.

[phil_er_up]

Corey asked about on stage mics and mics in the back of the room NO SBD feed. SBD feed was in my discussion ONLY.

Last 3 posts took what I said incorrectly...did not state what I wanted to say very well...since this went off topic from corey post will try and bring it back...

==============================================================================

Back to corey topic.... mics onstage split about 12-15 feet A/B OMNIS. aud mics at soundboard 5' ROC XY CARDS - NO SBD feed.

thoughts? pros vs cons?

[Gutbucket]

Right, I was only commenting on the big problem I saw with the comment about it "being the same as a SBD feed", and then addressing the issue of when a SBD feed involved in a general sense.  No offence intended toward you.

In Corey's case of onstage omnis split ~12-15 feet + cardioids 5' ROC at the soundboard in X/Y (and no SBD feed), I'd much prefer to run the cards in a PAS config if they are towards at the back of the room, or maybe a near-spaced config with a slightly wider but still narrow angle between mics (like DIN rather than ORTF).   X/Y will work, but would probably be my last choice of mic config from back there.

[danlynch]

The vocals will be buried in the final mix. 

[Gutbucket]

^^
PAS ..and use less of the on-stage omnis in the mix if that's the case. 

The onstage omnis will still be useful over just a PAS AUD from the back of the room on it's own, IMO.

[deadheadcorey]

I was thinking of doing split 16" PAS @ SBD 5'roc cards, and 15' feet split onstage a/b omnis or was thinking of doing xy 110* onstage lip cards.

the band I was gonna try this for is all instrumental w/ no vocals. drums, guitar, trumpet, and bass. banyan is the band

ive just always bee curious what a aud/onstage mic matrix would sound like

[Gutbucket]

No vocals, no problem. That makes it easier.  Either way, in my experience, the addition of an onstage pair almost always improves on a straight AUD.  But as always it depends on the situation and YMMV.

With that instrumental line-up you describe, I'd probably consider the on-stage pair the main pair, and the AUD secondary, and just add enough AUD as is needed in the mix.  The trumpet is likely to be the biggest variable, depending on if it is mic'd or not, how loud the musician plays, and which way it is pointing.  Horns are highly directional, and trumpets can be excruciatingly loud on-stage on-axis, but not always.  I have one on-stage recording (no SBD, no AUD) of a Charlie Hunter trio gig which features a softly played, PA mic'd bass trumpet where I had to work hard on the mix to bring out that trumpet enough.  For that one I used four omnis spaced across the front edge of the stage, each about 3'-4' apart, so the outer pair were 9'-12' apart total.  Drums on one side, Charlie middle, trumpet on the other.  I needed to bring up the mic closest to the trumpet a good bit more than the ones over on the side with the drums, but had to be careful to not screw up the left/right balance overall.

[deadheadcorey]

gutbucket, would you think would be better for onstage then? split 15 feet omnis or stage lip xy 110* cards

[Gutbucket]

Impossible to make the onstage config call without knowing the venue, the band setup, the audience, the PA..

Any particular reasons for those two choices specifically?

15' is a lot. Not saying it wouldn't work but 3' or 4' apart on stage would be a safer bet in most cases and 6' probably as far as I would go before I'd want another mic in the middle.  Either way, you're going to get more audience and room with omnis.  That might be good or bad. 

Going with the omnis on stage, and not knowing the other details, I'd space them 3' and run the cards PAS from were you describe near at the board.  That may be the safest, relatively conservative choice of all following..

110* X/Y cards might work, 120* might be better. Nothing wrong with either. Although if I was only using a pair of cards onstage and nothing else, I'd probably use something similar to ORTF.  I'm just not much of an fan of X/Y for this kind of thing, unless it's mixed with the spaced omnis in which case it can blend nicely.  X/Y in the center with omnis flanking wide on either side can work very well.  But since you probably want your other pair out in the room to get PA, you won't be using all four mics together on stage that way.  Also in this case, you probably don't want the omnis out in the room, with perhaps two interesting exceptions:

1) If you can setup wide omnis so they are sort of stack taping the PA, the PA sound they pickup will actually be quite SBD like, and the room and audience reaction sound they'll also pickup will be nice and wide and decorrelated.  I'd probably choose an ORTF-ish setup onstage in combination with that though.  You'll have plenty of 'center' from the SBD-like mono PA.  That could work really well, especially for any vocals, even if in this case that's just banter and introductions. 

You might have heard an example of two omnis setup that way (combined with no other mics) a number of years ago after TS user Illconditioned posted about permanently installing a wide spaced hanging omni pair something like 4 to 8' or so  (I think, can't remember) in front of the hanging PA speakers above the crowd, and posted links here to recordings hosted at his website.  When I listened to some of those, it to me sounded closer to a good stack-tape or straight SBD during the music, while between songs it sounded like wide spaced omnis on the audience applause, talking and room.  An on-stage pair would be a perfect addition to that, with great potential to improve the more straight-SBD sounding music parts, through the addition of things the on-stage mics do best- dynamic instrumentalist transient attack clarity from stuff like drums, nice rich tone from the player's amp cabinets, nice 3d depth from the rich on-stage early reflections, left-right placement stereo imaging, all the gravy, baby.
 
2) Wide omnis boundary-mounted against hard, flat backwall can work nicely and sometimes even get a cleaner PA sound than cards from way in back. But unless they are right up against the wall, I wouldn't use the omnis more than 1/4 way back from the stage. X/Y cards on stage could a good choice with that though, with it's solid, drier center.

[goodcooker]

I was thinking of doing split 16" PAS @ SBD 5'roc cards, and 15' feet split onstage a/b omnis or was thinking of doing xy 110* onstage lip cards.

the band I was gonna try this for is all instrumental w/ no vocals. drums, guitar, trumpet, and bass. banyan is the band

ive just always bee curious what a aud/onstage mic matrix would sound like

Last time I taped Banyan (last October I think) Rob Wasserman was on bass. If he is on the night you record leave yourself plenty of headroom on the on stage pair...he took some big leaps in volume during the course of the night. Based on the last time I saw them I would go with onstage omnis split 3-6 ft and pair of DIN cards (or slightly wider spacing and more narrow angle) from further back.

The stage setup would have presented quite a challenge. It was a semi private birthday party for a friend of the band in an art gallery with a really small stage. The opening band left their rather large percussion gear setup on stage right. Willie was setup sort of in the front but off to stage left just a bit, the guitar player behind him and farther to stage left a little, Wasserman in the back dead center and Perkins in the back stage right. Omnis onstage would alleviate (soften) some of the perceived location issues in the stereo image as opposed to running directional mics.

[deadheadcorey]

https://archive.org/details/banyan2015-03-06.mtx.kindrec

Banyan
2015-03-06
Oriental Theater
Denver, CO

source: 4 channel AUD/Onstage Matrix [(fob/3'loc/xy)AKG 391>Oade T+ UA-5>R-09 + (onstage/20'split/ab) Naiant X-O>UA-5>R-09]
lineage: R-09x2 > PC > Wavelab > CD Wav > TLH > .flac

taped, transferred, mixed, mastered, and uploaded by Corey/KIND Recordings

https://www.facebook.com/kindrecordingscolorado

~SET LIST~

01. The Denver Swing
02. Madness
03. Slow and Fast
04. Jazzy Oriental

Notes:

- 100% improvisational music
- Title names were made up

Band:

Willie Waldman - Trumpet (Snoop Dogg, Tupac, Warren G)
Stephen Perkins - Drums (Jane’s Addiction, Porno For Pyros)
Tony Franklin - Bass (David Gilmour, The Firm, Kate Bush, Kenny Wayne Shepherd)
Fareed Haque - Guitar (Garaj Mahal, Math Games, Zawinul Syndicate)

[microburst]

Here's the one and only example where I ran a pair on stage and off the PA: https://archive.org/details/billyiuso2013-06-24.mk21-cmc641.flac16

Had to use a separate deck for the PA pair because the snake takes you way the hell back to the SBD at this venue and and I don't run mics from back there under any circumstance.  Can't remember if I really got the stretch perfect on this one or not (may not have).

[deadheadcorey]

i think the banyan show I did came out fantastic!    mix is about 70% onstage/ 30% aud source. I am gonna do it again at Cervantes for drkwav this sat

[Gutbucket]

Nice recording Corey!

This is a good example of how X/Y + spaced omnis can mix together well.  The onstage mics provide a nice, transient-rich, up-front perspective which balances the more distant and reverberant perspective of the AUD pair with the PA in it.

No real need to do anything different, but if you'd like to explore this technique further and are interested in the minutia of what I was talking about above, first listen for where the reverberant portion of the recording comes from within the playback soundstage.  I'm listening now, and I hear the reverberant room and PA part emanating mostly from the center of the soundstage, with the clear and transient parts coming from the outside edges of the soundstage.  It's blended very nicely and works fine, but that's sort of the reverse of the normal situation, where you'd expect to hear the clearest, sharpest transient stuff coming predominantly from the center, and the more reverberant sound from the room spread out to the sides.

You might achieve that inverse scenario by making the the onstage sound more center-heavy (by placing the omnis more narrowly spaced on stage, or using X/Y or near-spaced cards onstage) and and pushing the more reverberant sound out to the edges of the soundstage by spacing the AUD mics apart more, while maybe pointing them more directly at the PA to help move the apparent listening perspective closer. 

But all that is chasing details, and you may not be able to try those things due to the constraints of how you need to setup at the venue. The real-world practicalities of setup easily trump all these minor sonic detail aspects!  You have a nice mix here with a good frequency balance and decent reverberant balance, and those things are by far the most important parts to get right.

Congratulations.

[deadheadcorey]

thanks gutbucket.  really really appreciate the feed back 

[Cobiwan]

Corey, I was going to ask if you used any delay between the on stage mics and AUD mics. It seems like there is a very slight echo/reverb between the two and wondered if this is with trying to accommodate for that or not. Overall, a really great recording,  I'm just asking if you made those adjustments or not. Maybe I'm just hearing what GB said about it being switched and I'd like to get this method down for myself as well.

[deadheadcorey]

i cut up the aud source and lined up each improv with the onstage source. so its prob what GB was saying.

ill try at drkwav split 16" bob/dfc/pas and either xy or ortf onstage omnis. i tend to really like sereo separtion in my recordings. thatswhy i did the split onstage. oriental theater stage is very long

[Gutbucket]

It seems like there is a very slight echo/reverb between the two[snip]

I didn't listen closely enough to really be sure, but I think it's just that the AUD part has a lot of room reverberance in it.  I imagine the AUD alone sounds rather distant and verb-heavy.  Using PAS instead of X/Y from the same AUD location in back should cut down on that verb a bit more.  The up-front clarity and image spread provided by the onstage mics works to balance the verby AUD nicely.  Sure some prefer a drier sound, and all though this could be a bit drier, I also really appreciate a good representation of depth and space in live recordings and find "a bit wet" less objectionable than "too dry" as long as it's nice and clear.  This sounds like a live performance in a real room, and it's clear and distinct enough that the lush room verb isn't distracting from the enjoyment of the music.   

The other aspect I was talking about is where that verb is heard to be emanating from- if it is coming mostly from the middle verses spreading out more to the sides.  That's less important than good overall direct/reverberant balance, and is a more subtle thing that's not as immediately noticeable.

[bombdiggity]

Sounds nice.  As GB notes it's fairly "wet" but with this music that seems to work quite well.  That bugs me ever so slightly on the drums but everything else sounds good with some bounce to it (esp. the trumpet and guitar).  I'm surprised there's this much room feel in it at 70% o/s but some rooms (and stages) are like that.  A big stage can have some room feel in it all by itself. 

[deadheadcorey]

https://archive.org/details/chancetrio2015-03-06.mtx.kindrec

here is the opening band. the onstage split is a little bit different as they had the first band drum set up. so split was maybe 12-15 feet

[deadheadcorey]

well sat night for DRKWAV i tried out bob/dfc/split 16"/pas akg391 and onstage beyers mc803 stage lip/dfc/wide ortf 

haven't yet mixed them yet. but curious to what it will sound like 

[F.O.Bean]

Here's a sample of one of the last times that I ran stagelip and FOB/SBD. I ran my mk4s stagelip/DFC in ORTF into my Littlebox and mk41/SBD in DINa! One of the better DAUD matrix's I've done! Can't wait to do easy DAUD matruix's with the 70D I'm getting soon

I say go for it. Having more mics setup in different places in the room can really add to an already good tape

[goodcooker]

Here's a sample

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[drivingwheel]

Here's a sample

?

Let him go, he's on a roll