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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 11798 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« on: January 06, 2018, 03:37:13 PM »
Continuation from the original thread here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1279052#msg1279052

DANG! OMT with the sideways supercards angled forward +/-45 degrees most certainly works in a small club (a good sounding one at least) as long as you can manage to shoe-horn it in there and keep everyone happy.  So good in fact I plan to play with angling those sideways facing supers forward outdoors to see if it works equally well everywhere.  I'll definitely be revising the OMT suggestion for small rooms (crappy ones remain to be tested, but I'm not overly motivated to explore that front). Listening today to last night's recording directly off the DR-680 via headphones using the 680's internal monitoring mixer I prefer not doing the Mid/Side mixing thing with the rear facing channel when the spaced +/-45 degree supercards are also in use, but rather just bringing it channel up with the appropriate level, panned to center.  Played back in surround with all six channels feeding their own speakers (no mixing, just mult'ing the single rear-facing microphone  channel to two back speakers, omnis routed to the side surrounds and sub) the way it handles audience chatter and room sound is really impressive.  All that is there, more of it in fact compared to the 2ch stereo mix, but the separation of it from the main stuff in front actually improves clarity of the vocalist and on-stage stuff and makes it easier to hear around the elements which would otherwise be distracting and cluttering.  I'll certainly be exploring this angle more.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:00:07 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 05:45:03 PM »
bump to join thread. Kung Fu 2017-12-16 OMT up now:
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2017-12-16.24akgck22ck61
to compare, here is kindms AKGck1x (cardiods) PAS recording:
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2017-12-16.akgck1x

snap is close up of both rigs
rig1] (AKG c460b|ck22 omni's spread 108 cm + AKG ck3 fwd and ck61ULS rear|naiant actives (black windscreens).
rig2] AKG ck1x on AKG collette (middle pair of large Shure AW81S)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:35:22 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 07:19:38 PM »
I provided an audio patch out to the music club's regular video taper this past weekend while trying out 6ch OMT in a small club.  Below are links to a couple YouTube clips he's posted which will give some idea of baseline performance in this kind of situation.

Caveats!-  Audio here is a raw 6ch>2ch monitor mix made on-the-fly out of the DR-680.  No listening was done, much less proper balancing, EQ or any other post production.  Balance, mix levels and panning of the 6 OMT microphone channels were simply a best guess.  Deep omni bass content overloads the input of the small video recorder at times.  Subjected to video recorder's file compression and of course YouTube data compression, yada, yada & hand-waving.. At least it's something to give you all a taste of what OMT can do in a small club.  Unfortunately the video taper didn't run for Mingo Fishtrap which was the best sounding set of the weekend after Bettye LaVette, and of an entirely different genre (full NOLA-ish band with funky organ & horn section).  Recording location was from the same column the video cam is mounted to. It's hard to tell from the video, but that's basically the far left side of the room, in-line with the left PA, about 15' away from the stage.

Bettye Lavette (Elenor Rigby > Love Rein O'ver Me) - https://youtu.be/N1oq2ZqfKt8

Tim Palmieri solo happy-hour-
(You Enjoy Myself ~ Linus & Lucy ~ Blackbird ~ Wish You Were Here ~ YEM ~ Golden Slumbers ~ Carry That Weight ~ YEM ~ Wipe Out ~ Louie Louie ~ Blister In The Sun)- https://youtu.be/D-ALOX7_13c
(Hits From The Bong)- https://youtu.be/Xgvdbzn3cB8
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 02:44:27 PM »
Thanks a lot for sending your recordings. Rocksuitcase, it is great to have your OMT and Kindms's single pair for comparison. Overall I prefer the OMT version, there is great sense of space. And I like the warm sound on Kindms recording. But maybe that is possible to tune it on OMT by an equalizer.

Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 03:22:56 PM »
Thanks a lot for sending your recordings. Rocksuitcase, it is great to have your OMT and Kindms's single pair for comparison. Overall I prefer the OMT version, there is great sense of space. And I like the warm sound on Kindms recording. But maybe that is possible to tune it on OMT by an equalizer.

Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?
The kicker about the comparison is the room itself is typically difficult to get good vocals on an AUD recording. Toad's place is basically a rectangular width room with the stage in the middle against one long wall with the soundbooth, hence mic stand location being about 40 feet from the stacks, again centered in the rectangle. When I would run with Blues Traveler's permission, I would run up in the crows nest, which is where Matt set up his official streaming/recording cameras along with the SBD feed into them. So, to read that the OMT has "great sense of space" makes me truly smile as this is the characteristic most missing from other recordings in there. Also, when you like the warmth of the ck1x recording, that tells me those mics worked well with his SD pre-amp.  I agree with your assessment as well, the OMT is more "realistic" while the ck1x has nice warmth if maybe a bit  boomy in the low frequencies.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 04:49:01 PM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 04:50:37 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 05:12:31 PM »
kuba- Yes, you can easily adjust the overall tonal balance via EQ, but that's not the only way.  You can also do so via the level balance between the omnis and the center mics.  So for instance, with a quick and dirty mix straight out of the DR-680 recorder using it's built-in monitor mixer that provides no EQ ability, I can dial up the omnis a bit more and the center mic(s) down a bit to tilt the tonal balance towards more bass and less treble, or vice versa.  Of course it helps if I'm actually listening while making those decisions. It happened to work out pretty well in the Youtube samples above just by knowing what monitor mix balances I've used in the past, even though I wasn't actually listening when I dialing it in for that patch-out.

This is where the flexibility in mixing OMT begins to come into play - and what really makes it advantageous in shaping whatever you come home with into something which works optimally for the listener.

Using EQ you can adjust overall tonal balance in a few ways- EQing each element separately before combining the channels and/or EQ'ing the resulting 2 channel mix after combining things.  So for example you can EQ the omnis primarily for what they are contributing to the bottom end, while EQ'ing the center mic or pair more for what they are doing in the midrange and top end.  And after combining the channels you can EQ the full 2-channel mix.  Typically I do both, but with different things in mind..

Actually, I sort of consider three separate corrective 'steps' or stages in putting together the finished product, and EQ is an important element in each of those steps, second in importance only to general signal integrity and level.  Looks like it's time to start outlining my process for mixing OMT.  I'll offer you a basic outline of what I do before blathering more philosophy about mixing and this approach in particular.

Basic OMT mixing in 3-steps-

1) First I'll do base-line corrective stuff to each channel.  Mentally asking myself things like- "Does this single channel have any problems?"; "Do the two omni channels sound similar in tonal balance and have a good level balance between them?" If not I'll compare just those channels and adjust one or the other as necessary to get them both sounding about the same.  That imbalance could due to some particularity about where I was setup in the venue, the PA, my recording trims being off, a misbehaving microphone or whatever.  In any case, I make sure each channel is okay on its own and more or less matches its pair in tonality if it has one.  Then I'll make sure they work together well as a pair, balancing the level between the two so that the stereo image is centered when listing just to that pair on it's own.  When I'm done with this step I have a good-sounding, well-balanced omni pair (channels 1 & 2), a good-sounding center channel (ch 3), a good sounding rear-facing channel (ch 4), and a good sounding pair of Left/Right supercardioid pair (ch's 5 & 6).  If using a center forward-facing coincident-pair instead of front/rear-facing mics, channels 2 & 3 are treated as a pair instead of independent channels.  Lock the individual channels of each of these pairs together so that you can adjust the level of the pair as a whole without upsetting its balance in the next step where you'll be balancing each pair against the other.

2) Then I'll do the mixing/combining part- setting up the mix balance between these elements.  This is where it gets fun and is probably the most subjective part of putting everything together. 

I usually start with the omni pair and build from that.  We already have it sounding good on its own so just pull up the level on that pair.  Hard-pan those omnis hard-Left and hard-Right.  Don't worry about any "hole in the middle" of the stereo image at this point if there is one (probably not unless they were quite widely spaced).  Next bring up your single center channel panned to center.  You've already gotten that sounding decent tonally, so just listen to what it does as you raise the it's level and it combines with the omnis.  Play around with it.  I find there are often three ways to work it, it depends on the recording and type of music, and there is no wrong answer- either the center level is about the same as the omnis acting as an "equal player", the center is lower in level and basically "fixes whatever is lacking with the omnis", or the center level is higher than the omnis and sort of dominates the mix.  I'll come back to this later as there are many different things going with this center/sides balance thing besides getting a solid stereo image, and the best choice will be one which finds an optimal balance between all those things.  For now, just listen for a solid soundstage between Left to Right which a reinforces the center content nicely, such that everything sounds balanced and you really miss it when you mute the center channel.  Don't worry about tonal concerns, how well you can understand the vocals, how distant it sounds or things like that at this point.

If you've recorded a center coincident-pair instead of a single center channel, pan both channels of the pair panned to center.  That effectively makes it a single monophonic center channel.  Balance it's level with the omnis as described above first, then play with panning the center Left and Right channels outwards by the same amount (symmetrically).  Try it fully hard-panned to either side as well as in all positions in-between.  The nice thing about having a coincident center pair is that you can pan this pair however you want without creating phase-conflicts.   Listen for a good, even image-blend between the center and sides.  You might like it best with no center spread at all (both mics of the center pair panned center), with fully hard-panned to either side, or somewhere inbetween.  Again there is no rule here other than getting it sounding good.  In general you are likely to end up with a center pair panned less widely than you normally would without the omnis in the mix.  Sometimes I'll pan them just a minimal bit to either side, but that slight panning makes a big difference in getting a smooth blend across the full soundstage and keeping the center from sounding separate and overly point-like.  If you mute the omni channels you might be surprised to find how narrow your choice sounds on its own.  That's an indication of how mic configurations need to change when used in combination with one another (taken care of by the OMT mic setup) and is helpful to hear to understand how each of the parts combine to make a sum greater than the parts.

Take your time here, work up a few different balances between center/sides (and center spread if you have a pair there) and listen to them for a while to see which one works best and sticks with you.  Often it may become apparent that what was sounding really good at first doesn't hold up under longer listening or only works for that particular section or song.  Try to find whatever balance works well for the entire concert and holds your interest without anything about it bothering you after a listening for a while.

If you have a rear-facing microphone, bring that up last panned to center.  The optimal level on the rear-facing channel will vary a lot depending on the situation, the room, the audience, etc.  You'll probably want to use more of it when listening to the sections between songs and during quieter numbers when the audience is quiet, and less of that during louder numbers, or when the audience is talking back there.

3) Once you have a mix you like, you can fine-tune the 2-channel mix bus or the resulting two channel mix output if you choose to edit that separately.  We are now to the point were we do the same things we would to any normal two-channel recording- EQ the whole thing (more subtle overall-tonal tweaks at this point), normalize, track, fade, whatever.


To me it helps to think of those 3 steps as follows:

The first step mostly about "fixing problems" and getting to a good level playing field starting point.
The second step is the "creative mixing" part where most of the gross (and subtle) decisions which have the greatest creative input on the the result are made.
The final step is the "mastering" part.  Putting the final polish on the thing and otherwise prep'ing it for release.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:29:35 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 05:22:03 PM »
Later I'll describe more subtle things you can do which really make this technique powerful, like EQ'ing the center channel differently to reduce conflict with the sides or to enhance vocal clarity and presence without the entire recording becoming too bright, and other stuff like that which comes after step 2 but before step 3 in the basic outline above.   Similarly, there are advanced EQ decisions you can make to the other channels- the omnis, the rear-facing channel, etc, which work in combination to create a greater sum than each of the parts in isolation.  As you move toward these more advance steps you'll begin to push the channels away from their "everything sounds as good as it can on its own" starting point of step 1, in a way somewhat analogous to ending up with a more narrow center X/Y pan in step 2 than you otherwise would for that pair on its own.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 05:52:04 PM »
I love to read it. This is huge help. I will try to write more in the morning.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 06:04:30 PM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.

Also consider that while it's useful to compare the overall sound of both in deciding if this is worthwhile or not, its very difficult to make specific comparisons of tonality or whatever because as explained above, Rocksuitcase's mix is his subjective choice, not only because he's applying EQ, but because of his choices of level balance, and OMT is always going to be more subjective in this way because we have to make these decisions in creating any 2-channel stereo mix from it.

I also noted more low frequency energy "warmth" in kindms' ck1x cardioid pair recording.  I personally don't find it too much or boomy but like that tonal balance.  Tonally, I prefer it's low-frequency balance to the OMT mix, at least on the gear I'm listening through, even though it lacks other traits I like in the OMT recording such as the sense of openness and spatial dimension.  Rock, please don't take this the wrong way, but I generally find your mixes a bit light on the bottom up through the lower midrange to my ear.  I haven't mentioned that previously because its a subtle subjective thing, but it's been stirring around in my head for a while and I think this is a good comparison to explore that a bit more.

The big OMT post production variables - subjective mix choices and what our monitoring is revealing (or not)-

Again these are subjective choices we make in putting the resulting recording together, but those choices are entirely dependent on what our monitoring is telling us.  It's not just really easy to correct for some minor (or major) imbalance in our playback monitoring when making decisions about what to do with the mix, we will in fact always do that unless we've specifically learned how to compensate for the deficiencies of our monitoring.  That's tough, because then the goal is to intentionally make it "not sound as good as it can" on our monitoring system but adhere what we have learned it needs to sound like there to sound correct everywhere else (on balance).  This is the well known mix-translation problem, and it is actually aggravated by this super flexible system of OMT mixing where we gain more control over everything.  It's one of the big reason's I've not released more stuff before now because I've long recognized my monitoring is the weakest link in my own recording-mixing-monitoring chain.  I know what to do but I don't trust my monitoring enough.  Okay so I'm a bit too much of a perfectionist there with respect to being a "taper", but that's partly because I know that once it's out there I'll never really have a second chance for a re-do.  That said, I'm getting closer to setting up a monitoring system I feel like I can trust, and the biggest issues there are getting the bottom and lower-midrange right.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:12:21 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 06:15:43 PM »
Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?

Thanks.  I'll get mixed versions up at some point.  I can make a few of my raw recorded OMT files available to anyone here to play with as well.  It would be fun to see how different each person's resulting mix ends up.  I also hope to up-load some auditory examples of building a mix step by step.

I'll remeasure my rig to confirm but the general spacing was about 5' total on the omnis and about half that on the L/R supercardioids angled 45 degrees forward.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 06:50:47 PM »
Took a few photos with my phone last weekend trying to show the OMT setup in that room.  Tough to make out against the black ceiling in a dark room, but here are a few snaps.  These four show sort of an overview of the room and the relationship between the recording position, PA and stage.

First is the view of Tim Palmieri on stage as seen from the recording position (no rig in frame).

Second is the view from side-stage/bar-entrance (rig is at the column, stand placed on a table around the column, stand running up the front column edge closest to center stage, mics up high).

Third is the view from the back half of the room not quite all the way to the rear wall.  Video guy jumped up on on a chair all excited about the Phish tunes. (Mic-stand and 3 of the 4 supercards can be seen, left supercard obscured by column, both omnis obscured by darkness)

Fourth is from the SBD during Betty LaVette (you can see the outward extension of the right omni past the right supercardioid in this one - flush-mounted into the black ball at the end of the antenna).

« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:15:31 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 07:06:25 PM »
Here are some crappy closeups of the OMT array-

First two are of the array during setup.  Stand hasn't been raised yet above the video cam which made the YouTube clips posted above, omnis are still retracted (you can see that the omnis retract in to the same position as the Left/Right supercards, except the Left ommi's telescopic arm now retracts only part-way due to a splint repairing a break)

Third shows the array from below.  The rear facing mic is up against the column.  You can see the angle of the right supercard and the position-relationship between the the supers in frame (front and rear-facing supers have an bigger windscreens than the Right supercard).

Blurry forth shows the array as seen from a perspective closer to the center of the room, raised fully above the video camera.

The miniature DPA omnis are mounted in my DIY sphere accessories to make them somewhat directional (and eliminate potential eye-pokes).  Here I pointed them +/- 45 degrees to the front.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:35:29 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 08:02:50 AM »
Oddball microphone technique is a beautiful thing. The following may be useful for those who are beginners like me. I started with two microphones. It took me a long time to understand the relationship between distance, angles, polar patterns (The stereophonic zoom - Michael Williams). I only made audience recordings this time. Then I tried onstage recordings with two or even four microphones or sbd feed. Here I needed to get a little more of theory (sound frequency, comb filtering, basics of sound propagation) And I also needed to use a little bit of post processing e.g. little eq or little shift of the stereo image.  And from there, it is already close to the OMT.

I am from Europe and hobby taping is not popular here. I got all the information from this forum. Great thanks to everyone from forum.

But why am I writing it? I was surprised by one thing. I'm music lover but I am a very simple, low-cost listener, I have no sound education and I'm working outside the music industry. But I noticed that the more I record, the more aspects I can distinguish in the recording. I did not expect that. I am just at the beginning because recording is only a hobby and I'm doing it for joy. But I know our brain has the ability to train listening skills and it may be unobtrusive, step by step. Things, that with I've fought in the past, are easy, fast and effortless to solve for me today. Of course, I get new obstacles that I didn't see in the past. If anyone is hobby taper like me and thinking about trying the OMT, do it. It will cost time and effort and the final recordings may not be good. But that's not important,  for sure recordings will come out better next time.

The big OMT post production variables - subjective mix choices and what our monitoring is revealing (or not)-
and also my ability, how subtle details I am able to distinguish. OMT is an ideal learning opportunity.

I can make a few of my raw recorded OMT files available to anyone here to play with as well.  It would be fun to see how different each person's resulting mix ends up.  I also hope to up-load some auditory examples of building a mix step by step.
I'm excited. It will be fun. And that would be a great help too.

Thanks for your photos. I should buy a selfphone with a camera (I'm an old school) because taking pictures of my rigs. I can see on your photo that the rear microphone could not be in the axle, but that is negligible. It reminded me my recording of Medeski and Mule. I used the rear microphone in Mid / Side. On your advice, I delayed the rear microphone before entering in the Mid / Side . The resulting sound was more pleasant to me. But as you say, these are very subtle things.

Thank you for sharing OMT with us. I see how much effort you gave in development. I appreciate Rocksuitecase help too. I found another beautiful part in taping because OMT.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:05:22 AM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 09:06:57 AM »
Thanks for the kind words kuba. And your interest.  I too find that the deeper I get into this the more I can hear, and the more I understand the more I enjoy the music on a deeper level.  Figuring out the puzzle is a big part of the fun for me, as is sharing what I've figured out here with anyone else who may be interested.  Part of what makes this so interesting is that live-music taping, especially from the audience, is a unique form of recording which benefits from unique solutions which don't really apply to, or come directly from, more common forms of audio recording.

The journey is the destination.

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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2018, 09:35:54 AM »
Learning recordings reminds me yoga. Yoga says that with the rough mind we can only see rough things. With more subtle mind, we can see subtle things too. We have to know the rough mind to get to the subtle. The same thing applies to the recordings. Sometimes I wondered if the sound masters are able to listen to an amateur recordings. If they are not disturbed by all the rough things that I do not hear. It's probably the same answer as in yoga, it's not disturbing them. I am sorry for light turn.

Part of what makes this so interesting is that live-music taping, especially from the audience, is a unique form of recording which benefits from unique solutions which don't really apply to, or come directly from, more common forms of audio recording.
I totally agree. Audience recordings have special magic.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 09:54:31 AM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.

Also consider that while it's useful to compare the overall sound of both in deciding if this is worthwhile or not, its very difficult to make specific comparisons of tonality or whatever because as explained above, Rocksuitcase's mix is his subjective choice, not only because he's applying EQ, but because of his choices of level balance, and OMT is always going to be more subjective in this way because we have to make these decisions in creating any 2-channel stereo mix from it.

I also noted more low frequency energy "warmth" in kindms' ck1x cardioid pair recording.  I personally don't find it too much or boomy but like that tonal balance.  Tonally, I prefer it's low-frequency balance to the OMT mix, at least on the gear I'm listening through, even though it lacks other traits I like in the OMT recording such as the sense of openness and spatial dimension.  Rock, please don't take this the wrong way, but I generally find your mixes a bit light on the bottom up through the lower midrange to my ear.  I haven't mentioned that previously because its a subtle subjective thing, but it's been stirring around in my head for a while and I think this is a good comparison to explore that a bit more.
Gut- no offense taken; kuba- I took another listen in my preferred "ideal" listening environment-my car-lol and definitely hear what you are saying "warmth" wise; to my ears the cymbals and high end is EX, but the low end is a bit sterile. I do wish I had some better mixing tools/software.
To the major point- ever since deploying OMT and learning to do the mixes I have had an inferior DAW listening situation in that the bass is always too boomy in my set-up. Therefore, at the beginning of seriously mixing OMT (Greyfox 2016) Gutbucket had mentioned one mix being way light in bass freq's. That event had an issue with the bass being so loud in the PA that the artists onstage as well as audience members complained so much the artists' complaints are during their set on the recordings!
I have finally obtained a nice subwoofer and feel my monitor environment is "better" for me to make mixing decisions. I will add that I typically do not finalize my mix before I take the working file into my car and listen to it all the way through. That has influenced me to make changes. What I am hearing you guys say is I am reducing the bass a bit too much in these mixes. Once mixed to two channels, I have been typically EQ'ing under 400Hz ->20Hz using graphic EQ and taking it down 4-6dB. This is further emphasized by the fact that kindms does zero EQ'ing with his two channel mixes (and I typically do very little to no EQ'ing of two channel takes).
Sooooo, in conclusion of this aspect; I hear what exactly you say regarding the Kung Fu OMT vs ck1x. Again, not going to go back and re-do it timewise, howwever, I haven't released the 16 bit yet;' maybe I will go in and do a different 2 channel EQ on it and ask what you guys hear.
As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

Great discussion so far. I just had a thought that I save my EQ curves in Audacity and could possibly take screenshots and title them properly such that it may be a part of learning/teaching/discussing mixing the OMT.
 
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 12:44:14 PM »
Do not worry, it's a good recording for me and 90% of people. But I understand when something can be improved, I would have done it.

These are interesting things for me. The imperfections can be better heard when two records of the same music can be compared. But e.g. Gutbucket's sample - I can not distinguish it's imperfections, it is above my distinctive ability. So the recording is perfect from my point of view. On the other hand, Gutbucket can distinguish these details, so he has better experience of music than I do and he can enjoy it more than me. Recording is an art.

You mentioned that you were using Audacity. Can you change or turn on/off EQ during playback in Audacity? It was not possible a few years ago. If is it still then comparison and decision making is very difficult. In a lot of programs, the effects can be changed or turned on/off by one click during playback. You can hear (and repeatedly) the difference immediately, so you have easier decision making.

As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

OTM has warmth, it's enjoyable listening for me. Maybe Chris used too much bass reduction. Did Chris have a stand near you?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:57:31 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 12:57:14 PM »
As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

OTM has warmth, it's enjoyable listening for me. Maybe Chris used too much bass reduction. Did Chris have a stand near you?
Chris's stand was about 4 feet behind and 10 feet Left of mine (which was DFC front row balcony). I think the sound on this two channel master is about as excellent as I've ever heard from both my own gear/mixing AND the band's PA perspective. The bass player, Zdnek Gubb, was simply KILLING it LOUDLY; he must have gotten new gear for Christmas as he was grinning from ear to ear and kept pointing up with one finger toward his tech/monitor guy. Sooooo, the warmth is/was in the room and on the original recording. That said, I treated the original Omni vs center channels similarly as the Kung Fu EQ wise. As Gutbucket says and you confirmed, some of this is very subjective AND does point out what some tapers have told me is their reasons for wanting to stick with two channels- They can record it and process it with a lot less work than the OMT. I say OMT is worth a try in about 75% of all situations we find ourselves taping in.
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 01:52:10 PM »
I understand very well the reasons for wanting to stick with two channels. Post processing is sometimes tedious for me.

I use Reaper as recommended in the forum. You can try it for free and full version is around 70 bucks. I think it is fully sufficient for OMT. The beginnings were difficult as I moved from Audacity. But now it's good. The huge advantage is that I can make any change during playback and hear it right away. The changes can be manual or preset. For example, I can set that I want to amplify the center microphone by 2db. And with one click I can turn this gain on/off during listening. I can chase any effects too, so mixing Mid / Side is then simple. If you decide to try it in the future, I like to help you with I will know.

Edit:
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16
I listened to Chris's recording more. It is great recording, he captured space better than OMT. It is nice to see that you can make so good recording with Chris Church mics (ha ha I own them too).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 03:45:10 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 05:50:10 PM »
Gave a quick listen again to both Twiddle recordings and both sound very good and well-balanced EQ-wise to me.  The bottom sounds like it's in proper proportion to the top, at least on these AT in-ear phones I'm using from this computer.

I'm quite impressed by Chris's CA-14 Twiddle recording, especially its up-front sense of presence and directness.  The instrumentation and vocals sound not-overly-distant and big.  It's very interesting exploring what produces that listening sensation in a recording, and ways of working the balance between "solid up-front presence" and "open spatial dimensionality", but that's a discussion to explore more in-depth later.   In any case, Chris' recording made with Church-Audio cards through a Church-Audio battery box is a great example of how excellent recordings can be made using non-pedigree mics in simple setups given the right situation.  And that raises a couple important points-

Low-cost mics can make great recordings in the right situation.  Most tapers know this and many have experienced it themselves.  The flip side is consistency.  Higher quality mics are capable of making good recordings more consistently.  Similarly OMT as a technique is considerably more complex than running a straight pair of mics, but one thing which makes it valuable is that it can make good recordings more consistently.   Which is really an entirely separate argument than how good it is capable of sounding in an optimal situation.  It dramatically increases the odds of success in our favor, albeit at the cost of more complexity and post work.

The other thing is that it works nicely with lower-cost mics and actually makes pedigree mics less necessary to achieve that kind of improved consistency.  It's the "whole being greater than the sum of the parts" thing again, but on the microphone side instead of the mixing side of things this time.  Done correctly, OMT can cover some of the problems commonly heard with lower-cost mics in simple 2-mic setups in less than ideal situations.  It's one reason why I was okay with putting my Microtech Gefells away and using the miniature DPAs instead, at around half the cost or less, after testing and comparing identical OMT recordings made using both (those comparisons being vital in making such decision).  Years back in the previous thread I was using low-cost miniature AT directional mics to proof-test this.  It worked very well and is partly what convinced me to eventually settle on using the miniature DPAs exclusively even in situations in which I would ordinarily pull out the lovely MGs.  I contemplated building a "budget 6-channel OMT" setup as inexpensively as possible using all miniature Church-Audio, Naiant, AT, or other inexpensive mics at that point.  How inexpensively could I actually do it and how would the recordings compare?  It would be enlightening to compare the same recording made by such a rig and my current miniature DPA-based rig.  I may still might do that at some point, parlty to further explore the idea and partly to have a second rig.  I also think it would be a cool way to promote our TS member mic builders if it works well.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 05:56:23 PM »
Quote from: kuba e
I understand very well the reasons for wanting to stick with two channels. Post processing is sometimes tedious for me.
Quote from: Rocksuitcase
[This points] out what some tapers have told me is their reasons for wanting to stick with two channels- They can record it and process it with a lot less work than the OMT.

Truth!  If a taper is averse to having to do much to a recording afterwards other than tracking and FLACing, this path will not be the most appropriate one to take!  OMT requires a post-processing commitment- a curse and a blessing.  To my way of thinking, the need to do the post-work is perhaps the main reason NOT to pursue this for most folks.   Also- I've worked my rig to make setup super easy, but that's not going to be the case for most tapers.  Everything in my rig is already attached, plugged in and wired so I just extend the arms, point the mics, power-up and roll - and can do all that considerably faster than the time it takes most tapers to set-up a typical 2-mic rig.  But that's obviously not how most will do it.  For most tapers, a perhaps equal yet different burden will be dealing with the complexities of hauling the mics and gear, setting up prior to making the recording and breaking everything down afterwards.  Rocksuitcase, your OMT setups with kindms amaze me in that way.  I have to imagine it's a lot of work to setup and break them down.  Kudos to you guys for doing that, and also to you for bearing the mix-down burden afterwards!

Quote from: Rocksuitcase
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
Quote from: kuba e
The huge advantage is that I can make any change during playback and hear it right away. The changes can be manual or preset. For example, I can set that I want to amplify the center microphone by 2db. And with one click I can turn this gain on/off during listening. I can chase any effects too, so mixing Mid / Side is then simple.

I have a hard time imagining trying to do this without being able to immediately hear the influence of whatever change I'm making while making it, and the ability to easily go back and forth to determine if what I'm doing is moving things in the right direction or not.  That feed-back loop is so vitally important to me.  Especially when fine-tuning things.  Also, I tend to work iteratively, going back and forth constantly between listening to specific things I'm adjusting verses listening to the whole in an more overall gestalt way, then back again.  That back and forth mental-flow would be highly compromised without immediate feedback.  Big respect for successfully working that way.  I don't own Izotope but admire it, great tools.  But far more important I think is the simple ability to have that immediate listening feedback loop in play.  My humble advice is to first change your editing software K!  I suspect you'll never look back once you do and wonder why you hadn't done so earlier.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 05:59:27 PM »
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ.

Try the TDR Nova plugin.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2018, 07:04:04 PM »
Quote from: Rocksuitcase
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
  Big respect for successfully working that way.  I don't own Izotope but admire it, great tools.  But far more important I think is the simple ability to have that immediate listening feedback loop in play.  My humble advice is to first change your editing software K!  I suspect you'll never look back once you do and wonder why you hadn't done so earlier.
No humbly about it. I have known I should switch ever since I started working with the DR680. I think the Izotope I need is their mastering focused one. Someone offered me a cracked version, but I feel I should pay them for their work as well as any support they offer. This gets OT for this thread, but I will bring it up and ask what folks think in the appropriate thread. Thanks to you and kuba for critically listening and offering food for my thought!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:02:15 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 12:05:21 PM »
The Pink Talking Fish set before Kung Fu OMT style: same rig as in the Kung Fu rig pics
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184981.msg2252069#msg2252069
https://archive.org/details/ptf2017-12-16.24akgck22ck61

I did mix this one less and reduced a bit less under 400Hz than the Kung Fu- however, being the opening set, less audience in the room, not exact comparison.
These guys are fun!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 07:27:38 PM »
OK,... I hope I'm not trolling in the wrong waters here,....
This morning,... Gude Head basked in the shade of the DeccaShrub.

DeccaShrub:
DPA4060 baffled omni pair, with single CM3 @ 0º apprx. *18+inches forward of vertical mic stand stanchion
*= clamp body depth, + 1ft extension rod, + 90ºangle adaptor, + mic body length,... or perhaps as much as 18" forward of mic stand. -2ft? I didn't meaure it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:19:00 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 09:19:25 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My out loud response was: "That is fucking sweet!"
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 09:44:21 PM »
I ran a DeccaShrub like that as an experiment a long time ago; 2009?. I was just recently listening to the result, and, I was quite surprised.  The performance had a contrabass duet at the center of the stage, surrounded by the balance of the Octet players.  Even with two big basses passing solos back, and forth, at the center of the stage, the separation and isolation was quite apparent and shocking. You'd think that those two big boys playing hard at under 100hz would want to mono-blob to center, right?,.. especially with a center mic.  Nope, great imaging, and even cutting into the rear of the "U" between them.
So, I decided today was the day to break it out again, an try it.
I just tossed it into the digishizzer blender thingy, and, it came out sounding quite nice (except the constant SoCal friggin air condtioning systems,..AHHHHHHH!!! Fuck, I want to kill something). I ran the baffled omni pair at 3.5dB over the CM3-0º, until I found enough of the center player.
Now, for the next rounds, which will be next weekend.

Gude wore his new power cyborg eyes in front of the Consort of the first time. The tenor violinist, center most player, was cracking up the whole time; loved it!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:46:21 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 09:14:55 PM »
Best way to mic a goat with the winds?


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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 02:20:45 PM »
I stumbled across this on LMA and thought it qualified as an oddball setup:
Quote
2 DAK 5245 Microphones and 2 Realistic PZM Mics(Mounted on 1'x 1'x 3/8" plexiglass)... Note: This was recorded with 2 sets of mics, 4 channels, mixed down to 2 channels. The mics were mounted on a stand 8' in height.
Source: https://archive.org/details/gd1993-06-13.111953.aud.dak5245-pzm.orchardpark-ny.flac16
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 04:40:49 PM »
Mike- your Decca-shrub setup reminds me of what Jurg Jecklin was doing later on.  The main visual difference being he was embedding the center forward facing cardioid mic into a slot in the baffle so that it was more or less flush with the front edge of the disk.  Can't remember the other changes, other than also using a second disk baffle setup behind the main mic position with cardioids instead of omnis facing rear-wards.  He actually sent me a surround SACD with some recordings made with that when I'd asked a bunch of questions about his setups and ideas years ago, but I don't have a SACD player and so have only heard the standard 2-channel Jecklin disk versions which are on the red-book stereo layer of the SACD.

A somewhat similar 3-channel baffle setup I though alot about back in the day was using two identical baffles spaced apart by a foot or two, each with an omni on its outer-side like 1/2 of a typical Jecklin disk setup.  Then play with a center mic placed in the middle between the two baffles.  The center mic could be a 3rd omni or a forward-facing directional mic.  I suspect that would work nicely.  You might be able to run that for one of your recordings with that group but probably not for a recording with audience unless the entire setup was down low in front of the front row of seats or something.  It would be hard to see around with the double baffles.

heathen- Interesting find. I was intending to play around with mounting my omnis on small plexiglass boundary plates long ago, but it just wasn't practical, so I ended up mounting them in smaller spherical baffles instead.    That ended up being better anyway for other reasons.  Interesting effort on their part recording to tape in that era, even if the resulting recording is bright, "spitty" and has no real bottom end to it at all (bummer Phil).  IMHO they should have started with a pair of spaced omnis and built on that.

Mala-resistance- You don't trust natural wind and rain to 'dust' your goat?  Your boom operator is showing in frame!  Extra credit for the pastel windjammer, though.  I was pretty charged up to find a bunch of big-horn sheep along the Snake River while there for the eclipse this past summer.  Those Idaho big-horns are nealry the same color as the rocks and much harder to make out against the background compared to yours, even when relatively close as viewed from the raft, drinking at the water's edge.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 09:43:00 PM »
This is my first try at DeccaShrub, from back in 2009/2010, and the only other time that I've run it.
I'm likely going to try it again this next weekend, a couple of times.
At any rate,... the first time, back '09/'10

In the most recent effort, I was extended further forward for this reason,... I'd put a layer of heatshrink over my 1' horizontal extension, which wasn't there in 09; for vanity, because the old stuff was looking ratty, so I went over it.. That extra layer of heat shrink kept me from passing the extension through my clamp, for a tighter adjustment.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 10:00:34 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 09:24:12 PM »
OK,...
How about a theory, expressed, but, not yet attempted?
That of,... combining the attributes of a DeccaTree, with that of a Boundary Layer, and, with the thought of the boundary layer also being a rearwarly baffled micing? All from first row center.
My mind plays evil tricks on me at times, and this thought keeps coming back.
The DeccaBoundaryBaffledLayer Technique.

To the image,...
This church has a low divider wall in front of the first row seats.  The center is an aisle.
I was thinking about using this wooden wall, and its trim feature as both a boundary layer, and rearward baffling. And running a single mic, on a single stand, forward of the wall by the typical 3'.
The aisle is likely 4'+->5' wide; so somewhat close to the Decca spread. The boundary layer and baffling would make up for the width.
The single forward mic on a stand,... low profile.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:37:29 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 10:31:26 AM »
So, maybe more detail in your proposed config?
By boundary layer, are you saying you will tape a mic to the wooden wall, or put it 3 feet out on a short stand? Which ever one you plan, are you also going to use the pictured baffle with omni's in addition to this single mic, and/or adding a single mic at each side of the center aisle using the wall as the baffle? Which mic in front of the wall- your CM3's?
 
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2018, 10:38:09 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:42:00 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2018, 11:36:24 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
:hmmm:
Seems like an idea which might provide you with some nice "wide stereophonic" imaging with the outer boundary omnis. I dig the concept (and think your idea is 'sound'). Apologies for bad pun!   
music IS love

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2018, 07:47:45 PM »
Ya mon, give it a go. 

I'd suggest not setting the CM3 too far forward of the boundary-mounted DPAs.  I'd probably try it with the CM3 directly in line with them unless that blocks the isle too much.  That way first arrival of direct sound from the stage in front hits all three mics simultaneously, eliminating any potential need for delays or time alignment.

I think Decca tree triangle with the center mic moved forward of the other two works because it was originally intended to be hung pretty far forward over the conductor's head, basically projecting over and into the orchestra which surrounds it on three sides.  When the group containing all sound sources of interest are predominantly forward of the recording position I think its best to keep the direct arrivals time-aligned with each other by flattening the triangle into something more like three in a line.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 01:44:58 PM »
This is another version that I did, a year ago or more. I didn't call it deccashrub for this one, but I am now.
Originally, I'd intended to do a quasi-M/S, with dipole omni and center mic. But that all became more than I was wanting to do, as my ears tend to burn out, and, i move on.
So, rather than the dipole/center quasi-M/S mix, I mixed it as what you're describing in bringing the forward mic back into time alignment (but it was already done that way in mastering).

This is that rig,..., and once again, I'm flying under another Deccatree.... and this one is even equipped with a GoPro cam up near the point mic.

AND,... there is that wall I'm turning into a baffle tonight.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:50:15 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 02:21:33 AM »
And, test firing complete.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 07:04:53 PM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2018, 05:55:47 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.

Best way to mic a goat with the winds?

108Ohm, if you have courage, you can record without extension rod too.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2018, 08:39:17 AM »
I just posted the Marcus King Opener to Twiddle using Spread Omnis 108 cm with Hyper cards in XY 60 degrees in the middle:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185099.0
https://archive.org/details/marcusking2017-12-30.akgck22ck3/marcusking2017-12-30-24akgck22ck3t10.flac

I'm not as happy with this mix as the Twiddle, but the sound was no where near as crisp and clear as the Twiddle.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:08:49 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 08:56:39 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.


Its still early on, and too soon to be too critical. But, I am very pleased with what I'm hearing.

The side baffles worked wonderfully in keeping everybody in thier place. They kept the center image more open for the center mic.  The center mic clearly displays the rear of the ensembles "U" formation, the mids. I feel this its in large part due to the side baffles.

Regarding placement on the wall,...
It is a short wall to begin with. So, it limits just what you can do as far as being too high or too low.  The floor on either side of the center aisle is ceramic tile, and highly reflective, so my thought was that being higher was going to be better than the lower area.  I decided to stay clower to the center aisle, as going wider put me closer to active players, and I didn't want to highlight anyone in this, as much as trying for the overall blending.

My thoughts are it has high potential.
If i had it to do all over again, I'd put some baffling under the piano; I'd like to have had the bass violin travel bags under the piano, for example. In one song, Bach BWV-1054 COncerto for Keyboard, the lid was opened, and that made a whole different sound in its presence.  Most of the show was played with the lid closed, which for this recording, made the piano less present.
But, the stage is small, and, they tried to bring him into the fold by pushing the piano as far into the setting as possible.  Always something.
I knew the piano was going to be bright, but, wanted to run the pattern anyway, and, just suck it up.  It turned out far better than I'd thought, with it being so close.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:58:55 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 09:10:04 AM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
I'm digging this approach Mike. glad it looks as if you are liking the results as well.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 09:29:59 AM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:31:23 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2018, 10:41:39 AM »
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05 | Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2018, 01:54:58 PM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
I listened to sample1 about 4 hours ago, now it seems sample 2 has been pulled. Hard to know your "bright" without a reference to your "dark" piano-wise, BUT I thin it sounds good overall tonally, separation of individual instrumentation seems right.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2018, 02:01:59 PM »
I did a different sample of the same track on sample.2, and pulled the original. That should be a good link to the new sample, though.
The first sample built too slowly for a partial sample, so I grabbed a different take.

Bright,... maybe I should have said strong presence? You will not be left for want of piano.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2018, 03:40:02 PM »
I did a different sample of the same track on sample.2, and pulled the original. That should be a good link to the new sample, though.
The first sample built too slowly for a partial sample, so I grabbed a different take.

Bright,... maybe I should have said strong presence? You will not be left for want of piano.
Yes, there IS piano!  :clapping:
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2018, 11:41:35 PM »
And thats the softer, slower, Adagio portion of the concerto.
The rehearsal of the concerto had the lid closed.  Then, surprise, surprise,.. the show had the lid open for the concerto, and closed for the balance of the show, softening it considerably.

Today,... lid open for the whole show, with the open lid facing the audience.
I bagged the first row, right side seat, and we stored all of our gear on the left first row seat, as the piano was so close to that row, anyone sitting there woud have had there face stuffed full of piano.
So, I utilized the hardwood church pews as the boundary layer, rearward baffle, and i taped the foam rem pieces to the sides of the pews as side baffling.
It record, and eft the first row seats to a really nice couple that comes to the shows (all of them), and I went and sat in the rear side.

I somehow managed to run two complete sets of blank files with Gude and the R09HR. They soundchecked out just fine; I hit record, saw levels, and time rolling on record; walked away. I get home to find two 41 minute blank stereo files that weighed in about 2gb of blankness, totally flat-lined. Gremlins.

And,... more time logged in the shade of another D'Tree.

Conclusion of test firing:
Total potential for exploration.  I would very much like to do this again without the piano.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:26:33 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2018, 12:08:46 AM »
OK,... I've worked with the gal that is the furthest to the left in the image above, #4441, for a couple of years now. Her name is Sarah O'Brien.
We've gotten along wonderfully. Always a really nice smile, and kind words.
I found out friday that she was the lead cellist for Yanni for 23 years, and leader of his orchestra.
They are together in this video segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ag2S7iLxk
I've always been amazed at her playing, but, never knew the background.
So, just today, I was asking her about that, and she said that she got her "in" with the Consort with Beth Folsom, the soprano violin player, who, was also with Yanni for a long long time.
I had no idea that I was so close to new ageyness.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2018, 03:15:09 PM »
Those samples sound quite good to me Mike.  I like the hefty sense of spatial width from the wide omnis as well as the detailed yet flattering perspective on the ensemble it provides.  Good "division of labor" amongst the three mics, avoiding phase interaction conflicts in the 2-channel mix-down.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 04:19:01 PM »
Came across an AES paper which explores a setup quite similar to OMT in a number of ways.  I just started reading it at lunch today so I won't speculate too much or offer my opinion until I have a chance to fully digest it.  However, I wanted to share the link here as there are some obvious parallels with what I'm doing.  Generally, the idea of using spaced arrangements consisting of multiple coincident pairs to facilitate manipulation of the recording afterwards. More specifically, I immediately noticed similarities to my  idea of turning the 6-ch OMT side facing supercardioids into coincident Mid/Side arrangements as illustrated in the advanced section of the OMT booklet - modifications I want to experiment with next, using 8 channels total.  More on this later..

Technical content warning- This is AES paper type reading dealing with hall acoustics, surround recording and listening psychoacoustics.  No math, but some non-superficial technical acoustics type stuff.

It can be viewed or downloaded at the site below, which is where I found it upon browsing other papers from the University of Huddersfield Repository.  That page states:

"Download PDF:
Sorry, we are unable to provide the full text but you may find it at the following location(s):"

The links which follow are dead ends, however the full paper may be either viewed directly or downloaded as a PDF from the preview window found a bit further down around mid-page.

A New Multichannel Microphone Technique for Effective Perspective Control (by Hyunkook Lee)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 10:08:47 PM »

Two channel stereo - Baffled Boundary Layer
result:
Quote from: cello player
Mike...the recording sounds amazing!!! Thank you so so much!!! I can't thank you enough...I was supposed to be practicing other music today, but I've just been sitting and listening to the recording. The balance is fantastic and the sound quality is wonderful!!! Others have recorded us in the past, but I want you to know that your recording is the best we have ever had.

referencing the DPA4060 pair taped to the brick wall, on either side of the post, below; Baffled Boundary Layer
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:44:48 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2018, 11:28:51 AM »
Right on. 

Liking how you used the column as a baffle between the boundary mounted 4060s taped to the wall.  That seems to me an excellent setup for that room.  If you are able to, it would be interesting to do the same using the opposing wall and center column behind the stage, high enough over the piano that you have a more-or-less direct line of sight to the strings.  You should be able to do that without much if any visual impact at all as long as you can set it up early so as to be out of the way of the performers.  That would get improved proximity to the sources and push the audience further back in the auditory perspective.  Only one way to know if that really works better or not.

Feels pretty good to get that kind of feedback from the musicians, no?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2018, 01:19:37 PM »
Received special permission to record at Snarky Puppy's Ground Up festival last weekend, upon promising to keep the recordings private and provide them to the music label for audience-reaction and ambience in their potential live multitrack releases.  This is a fantastic musician-centric festival held in a small a park along the beach, quite intimate as it is capped at 2000 attendees per day.  Outstanding talent, heart and mindset by all involved- the musicians, the audio support crew, the festival organizers and staff and the attendees.  Got in with their recording engineer to provide him my files and hear his.  They were multitracking all performances and had up a pair of spaced omnis at the soundboards of both stages.  I moved my 6ch OMT rig back and forth between the two stages.

A few photos..  here's my setup at the smaller stage-

Last photo is the kicked-back hammock perspective of the rig and stage.  A nice spot to chill while keeping an eye on things.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:29:58 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2018, 01:27:22 PM »
A few of my setup at the main bandshell stage-

First photo is of my rig as viewed from below. Like at the other stage, the recording engineers spaced omnis are visible as well (Earthworks employed at this stage).
Second is from the recording position (Wood Brothers)
Third and fourth are is from the recording position (Snarky Puppy)
Last is the view out the window looking West from Miami Beach across Biscayne Bay towards the Miami skyline from the top floor of the hotel hosting the last-night shows.  Posting this one simply because I found it a cool photo with the reflected ballroom lights interposed against the sky.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:32:49 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2018, 01:29:18 PM »
Mike- +T great use of the wall/post. So awesome to get feedback like that!

Gut, great photos, I dig the one straight up  at the blue FL sky! (only a  bit upstate NY jealous!)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2018, 08:32:07 AM »
People might want to check out this, done with a 4 channel OMT rig. 60cm spaced omnis, with a hyper as the mid in a m/s pair mixed mostly to mid:

16bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598540
24bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598541

Mike Gordon, Scott Murwaski, Robert Walter, John Kimock, Craig Myers

March 10, 2018
Brookln Steel, New York, NY

Location: SBD Cage, just R of Center
Source: Schoeps mk3 (60cm AB) + Schoeps mk41v/mk8 (m/s)> Nbob actives> Sound Devices mixpre6 (channels 1-4 @ 24bit 48 kHz)
Transfer: Mixpre6> Macbook Pro (via usb-c)> Reaper (DSP)> Sound Studio (Fades & Tracking)> xACT (Tagging and Flacing)
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre6, Sony PCM m10

Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2018, 10:00:25 AM »
Thanks Noah.  What are your thoughts about it?

BTW folks, as a point of comparison, Noah has also made available his 2-channel mk4 recording from the same show-

mk4v (25cm @ 70 degrees) :
16bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598538
24bit: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=598538
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2018, 01:15:51 PM »
Thanks Noah.  What are your thoughts about it?

I think it worked well.

My only real issue is the large bar needed for appropriate spacing. It requires a heavier larger stand.

On Saturday night, I probably had a chance to go FOB, but turned it down because I was committed to the big stand.

Sunday night in Albany, where I was poised for FOB, I ran three pairs, all of which sound great. but there was no way I could have used the big omni bar there.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk4v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, Darktrain 2 and 4 channel KCY extensions:
Preamps:    Naiant Littlebox, Naiant IPA, Naiant PFA, Sound Devices Mixpre6
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Home Playback: Mytek DSD 192> McIntosh MC162> Eminent Tech LFT-16; Musical Fidelity xCan v2> Hifiman HE-4XX / Beyerdynamic DT880

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2018, 03:15:09 PM »
Thanks and agreed- I see the need to space the omnis sufficiently as the most imposing setup constraint for OMT, assuming one is already setup to run more than 2 channels.  And it doesn't help that it seems the more spacing one can get between the omnis the better the result, at least as a general trend with this.

Both of these recordings sound good to me. I did EQ'd each separately before making a comparison (and then compared the two both with and without EQ), and found it interesting that I came up with a very similar although slightly different curve for each.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2018, 01:48:31 PM »
Well, sometimes you find things when you least expect to.
Objective of the morning: Find/learn about a Pintle tow hitch system.
Found:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/TowSmart-Solo-Hitch-Alignment-System-1280/206798835


Telescoping, extends from 10.5" to 43" each w/ hardish foam ball ends with *2.5" balls. Heavy magnetic bases.

*measured this morning.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:44:55 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2018, 02:32:51 PM »
Do I ever leave anything alone?
Only in the bag, on the way home...

Found out:
Magnets just push out of the channels. This exposed mounting scheme of a pop rivet into the body of the tubing.
Determined: Childs play to mod further.
Pop Rivets will be removed, and machine screw replacements. At the magnet channel, matching all-thread connector female ferrules will be attached so that the magnetic bases can be utilized, or, the machine screws can be used to connect the two spreaders into a single unit.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 07:15:20 PM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2018, 03:57:45 PM »
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.0
Rig pics of recent 2 day festival where we did two different OMT variants.
Friday variant was: Friday - AKGck22 omni spread 108 cm > Grace V2@+25dB 2 x AKGck3 XY 60' (PAS) in center >> Tascam DR680
The SAT variant:                  AKGck22 omnis about 15 feet apart >Grace V2; 2 x ck3' hypers crossed 60' (PAS) in center > Grace V3
Approximate locations are same center location; Friday we had the Manfrotto triple bar limitation of about 108cm spread; Saturday we were able to spread them using three stands.

In our opinions this wide spread resulted in a kick ass recording.
More will be added in here later to support the discussion. LMA links:
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22                  SAT
https://archive.org/details/ggw2018-03-23.akgck3_ck22                 FRI

What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels. Unfortunately what we did is nowhere near scientific; each day had different acts, and although the same PA was used, on Saturday the JGB FOH was doing SIM measurements using a measurement mic close slightly above the floor area thus IMO the overall sound quality was 15-20% "Better" than Friday.
Another notable process: we had the center pair of hypers crossed PAS which essentially was about 60' maybe closer to 50' (as recommended by GB)
edited to answer GB's questions below
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 06:14:31 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2018, 04:31:15 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!  Its comparatively easier to make a recording of this quality from well FOB in the sweet spot, but not so easy from 50' back near the back of the room in an indoor hall.

Link to that recording (again)- https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Quote
What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels.

Yes, exactly.  Low correlation between the wide omnis providing the big open ambience, fat bottom, and a nicely diffuse representation of the audience + High correlation between the coincident PAS hyper center pair providing clear focus and imaging of the direct sound from the PA and stage.. with the right amount of blend between the them.  Two complementary pieces of the puzzle which go hand in hand and work especially well in combination partly because they are sufficiently different enough from each other.  This is the core essence from which the technique is constructed - each part contributes something different, and no part works optimally on its own without the other (which is the necessary leap of faith in really taking the technique to the next level and making the most of it), so that in combination the sum of the separate elements produces something greater than any of the individual parts.

That leap of faith thing is the tough part, yet is essential to really wring the most from OMT.  It's much more comfortable to build upon 2-channel stereo techniques we've a preference for from personal experience and general practice, which are certainly true for for 2-channel recording in general (things like near-spaced stereo pairs in the center, wider X/Y angles in the center, pointing all the mics toward the stage, not overly-wide omni spreads, etc).   It's really ingrained in us.  I still find myself convincing myself to push further outside the envelope of "known good" stereo practice sometimes with regards to advancing the technique further in pursuit of the sound, man, the sound!


I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.

BTW for folks reading, there is more discussion on these two recordings and photos of the setups used in this alternate thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.msg2259795#msg2259795 And here's 'Suitcase's photo from that thread showing the 15' split omnis + PAS hyper center pair setup used to make this recording-

« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 04:56:12 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2018, 04:47:45 PM »
The Pintle tow hitch system Moke found as an alternate and more heavy-duty telescopic mic bar for spacing the omnis looks very promising, and Moke is already made rapid progress in transforming into a working telescopic mic bar.  To bring folks reading this OMT thread up to speed, we've posted more discussion on that in another thread specifically adressing bars for spacing 4060s and the use of various shapped modifier attachements for them- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185872.msg2259701#msg2259701  I won't duplicate that info here at this point since whats' been posted thus far is pretty much covered in the original OMT thread, other than linking a couple photos of his posted over there showing what he's done and a comparison with TV antenna arms.  Looks significantly beefier and capable of supporting mics larger than flyweight miniature omnis.

 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2018, 06:22:41 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!

I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.
Answers to questions in edited clarified post above yours! Thanks so much for your inspiration- results such as these make it all worth learning and doing!
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2018, 07:38:34 PM »
For anyone lurking, or wondering what the OMT hubbub is all about,  Rocksuitcase and Kindms's recording of JGB with Melvin Seals last Sat is an excellent example of what this technique is capable of, and is in my opinion indeed quite kickass!  Its comparatively easier to make a recording of this quality from well FOB in the sweet spot, but not so easy from 50' back near the back of the room in an indoor hall.

Link to that recording (again)- https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22

Quote
What I noticed between the two days differing setups is the wide spread omnis certainly have more "uniqueness" to the signal with very little correlation between the two channels.

Yes, exactly.  Low correlation between the wide omnis providing the big open ambience, fat bottom, and a nicely diffuse representation of the audience + High correlation between the coincident PAS hyper center pair providing clear focus and imaging of the direct sound from the PA and stage.. with the right amount of blend between the them.  Two complementary pieces of the puzzle which go hand in hand and work especially well in combination partly because they are sufficiently different enough from each other.  This is the core essence from which the technique is constructed - each part contributes something different, and no part works optimally on its own without the other (which is the necessary leap of faith in really taking the technique to the next level and making the most of it), so that in combination the sum of the separate elements produces something greater than any of the individual parts.

That leap of faith thing is the tough part, yet is essential to really wring the most from OMT.  It's much more comfortable to build upon 2-channel stereo techniques we've a preference for from personal experience and general practice, which are certainly true for for 2-channel recording in general (things like near-spaced stereo pairs in the center, wider X/Y angles in the center, pointing all the mics toward the stage, not overly-wide omni spreads, etc).   It's really ingrained in us.  I still find myself convincing myself to push further outside the envelope of "known good" stereo practice sometimes with regards to advancing the technique further in pursuit of the sound, man, the sound!


I gave a quick listen to the Friday GGW for comparison, and yes the difference in sound quality in PA optimization is apparent.  I can mentally "listen around" that when listening for other attributes of the recording which correspond the differences in your recording setup over the two days and I suspect others reading this can mentally do the same, as long as I know what variables didn't change.  With that in mind, can you clarify a bit on what was different other than the much wider omni spacing (15' verses 42"), the bands themselves, and the PA optimization?

Seems you were quite close to the same recording location both days.
Center X/Y pair in PAS both days? (same approximate 50 degree angle between mics to PAS both days or are you saying you made it a bit tighter on Saturday than on Friday?)
^Just want to make sure before I draw conclusions.

BTW for folks reading, there is more discussion on these two recordings and photos of the setups used in this alternate thread- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185887.msg2259795#msg2259795 And here's 'Suitcase's photo from that thread showing the 15' split omnis + PAS hyper center pair setup used to make this recording-



Hey thanks for the kind words. Always nice when it turns out well

considering we had all sorts of real and imagined issues  :o its amazing the v2 & v3 stayed powered on and we didnt create a problem

was really fun being able to contribute the 414s to the stream as well. we got to demo the mix during the JGB soundcheck. Matt said he had always wanted to mic the audience that way but never had the time / chance to do it

Also have to give a shout out to math and rocksuitcase. One of those classic moments. He walks off the distance from the video FOH to stage. yells back to set the delay 40ms, then says make 35ms. It was dead on
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2018, 05:20:36 PM »
another OMT goodie:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185913.0
Kung Fu
The OMT setup:
Source: AKG ck3 (60deg) >Tascam DR680(24/48) + AKG ck22 split 42" (108cm) >V2 >Tascam DR680(24/48)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2018, 01:13:41 PM »
Saturday night I broke out the TV antennas and ran some split omnis.  Specifically, I had a pair of AT4031s in the center in DIN config.  Flanking those were a pair of CA14 omnis, 70 inches apart, oriented 180 degrees from each other.  I've only listened to snippets of the recording, but I am very surprised at how decent the omnis sound on their own (this was indoors, by the way).  I hope to have something posted this week, but in the meantime I can say that it was a lot of fun to fly some mics at such a wide spacing.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05 | Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2018, 09:47:11 AM »
Here's my recording from 3/31 with the split omnis and AT4031 mix: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185963.0

I really like the low end that the omnis add, and was initially concerned about them adding too much crowd noise.  Then I listened to just the ATs and, unfortunately, the crowd was just really loud that night...can't blame the omnis.  As I mentioned before, though, I was really impressed with the omnis by themselves.  I wonder if Chris adds a bit of a high end boost to his omnis since they'll generally be used far from the source in our concert recording situations (that's a topic for another thread, though).
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05 | Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2018, 12:55:21 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  downloading now. I love any Medeski project. I'll let you know my opinion on the recording. Thanks for sharing!

Wow, half way through- I like it. Very "wide" and spacious. I'm at work on small speakers but the AUD hasn't gotten in the way yet. Scofield has a very airy guitar tone which you captured pretty well here.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 03:24:01 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2018, 12:59:29 PM »
I'll let you know my opinion on the recording.
Looking forward to it.  I still have a lot to learn.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2018, 02:59:13 PM »
Heathen, any possibility of posting short (say minute long or so) samples of the omnis and cards on their own prior to mixing?  No worries if that's too much hassle.
MP3's uploaded directly to the thread would be perfectly fine.  The size limitation on each file in that case is 750KB.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2018, 03:15:24 PM »
Heathen, any possibility of posting short (say minute long or so) samples of the omnis and cards on their own prior to mixing?  No worries if that's too much hassle.
MP3's uploaded directly to the thread would be perfectly fine.  The size limitation on each file in that case is 750KB.
No problem at all...I'll try to remember to do it tonight.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2018, 06:34:49 PM »
Here's a clip of the raw CA14 and AT4031 files: https://we.tl/GGNxlvRxY6

All I did to these was to make each into a stereo file (you can split them back up into individual channels in you DAW, of course) and trim them down to the short clip size (I tried to find a passage that has loud and quiet parts).  They're both of the exact same passage of music.  Link should be good for seven days.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2018, 07:10:07 PM »
heathen. grooving the MSMW.

Curious about your thoughts as well as others. rocksuitcase and i were discussing this the other day. You mentioned talkers etc. We are sort of thinking that the OMT has a tendency to mitigate the crowd to some extent. we were thinking perhaps as its more "spread out"  vs. a more direct in a 2 channel scenario.

curious what you guys think about that

Im only about 15 minutes in on the recording and so far the crowd is there but I haven't found it distracting etc
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2018, 08:37:03 PM »
heathen. grooving the MSMW.

Curious about your thoughts as well as others. rocksuitcase and i were discussing this the other day. You mentioned talkers etc. We are sort of thinking that the OMT has a tendency to mitigate the crowd to some extent. we were thinking perhaps as its more "spread out"  vs. a more direct in a 2 channel scenario.

curious what you guys think about that

Im only about 15 minutes in on the recording and so far the crowd is there but I haven't found it distracting etc
This is one of Greisenger's concepts which informs the OMT theory: decorrellation- the omnis are sufficiently spaced and separated from the center microphone(s), the more "unique" each signal is, time of arrival and pressure difference wise, the more decorrellated the signals are said to be. This is one reason why chatter seems less annoying when doing a 3 or more channel OMT using spaced omnis as the anchor. Correct my cite GB if wrong    ;)
music IS love

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2018, 08:57:50 PM »
Forgive me for what may be stupid questions, but doesn't OMT still pick up the general din of the room?  Any particular yell or the like may be decorrollated, but that background constant level of noise will remain right?
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2018, 09:16:08 PM »
Forgive me for what may be stupid questions, but doesn't OMT still pick up the general din of the room?  Any particular yell or the like may be decorrollated, but that background constant level of noise will remain right?
Oh yeah, same as every/any mic. There is always the room chatter these days, I feel for you there, BUT, your recording is very good.
re decorrelation: I think what I hear is when I know a person was coughing or yelling to one side (i.e. I'm sitting next to them), it seems that cough or yell isn't as present on the recording. Of course, anything loud near any mic will be in the mix at one level or another.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #81 on: April 05, 2018, 12:08:45 PM »
You've got it.  The audience sounds are still there and are not reduced in level, but the way in which that is portrayed and perceived during playback is different.  The audience sound pickup is directly related to the how room ambience is picked up and portrayed - both are more-diffuse, and open and "out there", perceptually separated to some degree from the music of interest which is more highly focused in the center front quadrant.  The wide omni spacing does this in an increasing way for direct sound which arrives further off the central axis and especially so for the diffuse sound which is effectively arriving from all directions (in this case that diffuse audience sound component is more murmur and general din, as opposed to any specifically identifiable audience sounds).

Acually, due to the omnis we're most likely picking up more audience and room sound from all directions than we would using a single pair of directional mics, yet that content (at least the room sound and the desirable audience reaction) is less in conflict with the music because of the OMT arrangement because it picks up the direct sound and the room/audience sound in different ways before we combine them.  Of course there remains a lot of overlap between them, and that's a good thing.  But the differentiation is important and useful.

To take best advantage of that differentiation, it helps to keep the central mic pair as focused on the direct sound pickup from stage and PA as possible, with the omnis less intentionally focused on that and more oriented on the diffuse sound arriving from all directions.  So more-directional PAS center pairs are helpful for maximizing direct sound pickup from stage and PA, and a coincident arrangement of the center pair is helpful in producing a tighter and highly-correlated type of stereo for that direct sound component (contrasting against the more-decorrelated and diffuse omni pickup of room/audience).  Omnis which don't especially favor the forward direction are helpful, achieved by using miniature omnis which have less directionality due to their small size, or omnis with diffuse grids like the AKGs rocksuitcase and kindms are using, or pointing more directional omnis sideways or backwards.  And spacing the omnis as far as practical helps decorrelate the diffuse pickup to a lower frequency, narrows the SRA angle of the omnis, meaning more of the off-axis audience direct sound pickup by them will image far-left or far-right leaving room for the center pair stereo stuff in the middle.

The other thing which spacing the omnis sufficiently helps with is audience sounds close by the recording position.  Close sources will tend to be considerably louder in one omni than the other and that will cause them to image further to one side or the other, leaving more perceptual separation between that and the music which is imaging more tightly in the center, allowing it to be more easily perceptually ignored even though its still there (cocktail party effect).  Again, the setup is actually more sensitive to close audience sounds due to the omnis, but the arrangement helps to make that seem less in conflict with the music.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #82 on: April 05, 2018, 01:04:17 PM »
Heathen, thanks for the MSMW.  Sounds good (dig those guys).  And very cool that you were able to manage a 7' spacing on the omnis.

Here's a clip of the raw CA14 and AT4031 files: https://we.tl/GGNxlvRxY6

Thanks for that.  It's helpful to hear each part in isolation.  Here's something which I think will make things even better.

Are you one who does any EQ?  No problem if not.  This is a big topic in general, and even more so with regards to the potential application to OMT where each part can be EQ'd separately and/or the resulting combination can be EQ'd as well.  In general, its a good approach to EQ the center pair and omni pair separately to each sound as good as possible on their own prior to combining them.

But there is an important exception to that, which can be useful to do even if you don't really care to make the effort to EQ the two parts separately.   It's this- Often it helps to clean the sound up greatly by reducing the low frequency content of the center pair.  Let the omnis provide the majority of the low and upper bass content.  Its okay, even good, if the center pair is more-focused on the midrange (especially) and high frequency content.  Directional mics with weak bass response (like those more intended for speech pickup) can actually work well as center pair because of this, since their response is sort of pre-EQ'd that way already and fits the roll.  Otherwise it helps to use a gentle roll off from the below the upper mids to reduce any excess "thickness" and boom in the center pair.  And although I've not tried it, a high pass filter could work for this, especially if you can set the slope to first-order (-6dB per octave).

This represents another aspect of the "division of labor" sort of thing described in the previous post, letting the omnis do their thing down low without conflict.

And a midrange focus in the center pair plays nicely against the tendency of omnis to be less forward in that range.  Again, the mic patterns used sort of naturally do this for you, but you can emphasize the trend somewhat with EQ if you want to play with it, just keep the difference moderate.

At higher frequencies I find the interaction between the omnis and center pair to be productive.  No need to reduce one to let the other "breathe" sufficiently.  Probably partly because the signals are sufficiently decorrelated at high frequencies (short-wavelengths) so the content is different enough, and partly due to how we perceive phase differently at high frequencies, where  randomized phase tends to sound "airy" and "open".



TLDR- reduce any tendency toward "mud" or excess "thickness" in the center pair via mic selection or EQ, even erring toward what would be an "over-thin" bass-weak sound when the center pair is listened to in isolation.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #83 on: April 05, 2018, 01:25:45 PM »
I'm not sure if you just made a typo, but my omni  spacing was 70 inches.

As for the EQ, I have EQ'd some recordings in the past but I still don't feel very comfortable with it.  While I'm not opposed to messing with it more and trying to get better, I'm leaning more towards mics that sound the way I like without need for EQ (hence my love of the AT4031...maybe not for everyone, but to me they sound damn near perfect).

If you tinker with that clip to the point you get something that sounds good, I'd love to hear what you come up with (and perhaps more importantly, how you got there).

I'll admit that for this show I was thinking of the AT pair as my primary focus, and OMT was a secondary thought.  That's why the ATs were DIN...if I were primarily focused on OMT then it seems from the recent comments that having the ATs PAS or XY would have been better.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2018, 01:26:05 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Heathen- I find that unless conditions are ideal, often I like to EQ the omni channel usually taking out high end above 3kHz gradually to 20kHz (always depends on source material)
Then import the middle channels, and typically do not need to EQ our AKG ck61ULS or ck3's. but if I do I do it separately from the Omnis as GB mentions. THEN
I level the two stereo sources against each other, typically boosting the center 2-4 dB over the omnis, but it can go the other way as well. (often coming up with different rations of Omni to center even between sets)
THEN export to two tracks THEN re-level or do a light overall EQ if something seems it needs shaping. ( I like to NOT do EQ at this stage if it all sounds right)

IMO, the complete approach to OMT involves knowing there WILL be post processing involved and much more than with 2 channel recordings. For me, after all the years of running co-incident patterns this last 3 years has been much more FUN doing the various things involved to go multi-channel both equipment wise and in my interactions with FOH and musicians. I have had several musicians, producer types, ask about the mic technique and in fact have had a few of them reach out after the event to ask for their raw files. (which I eagerly provide)

I will post a wetransfer just for you of one of my best takes like this using 4 channel OMT plus 2 ch SBD. The band isn't "taper friendly" so it will be on the DL via PM to you.
Quote
I'll admit that for this show I was thinking of the AT pair as my primary focus, and OMT was a secondary thought.  That's why the ATs were DIN...if I were primarily focused on OMT then it seems from the recent comments that having the ATs PAS or XY would have been better.
If this is the case, then your recording is all that much "better". I hear a nice wide soundstage plus a relatively centered overall image.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 01:28:52 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #85 on: April 05, 2018, 01:29:29 PM »
Thanks for the input, and for sharing the file!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #86 on: April 05, 2018, 04:25:41 PM »
My mistake, I meant to say 70 inches not 7 feet, yet the point stands - that's more spacing than most tapers are able manage from a single stand, and is in the enough for "good OMT spacing" IME.

No worries in considering your DIN pair primary, and that's the way I'd approach it if I was just getting into OMT.  Best to start from what you are comfortable with and what has worked well for you in the past, using that as a baseline of comparison for whatever changes you end up making, before changing things up too much.

Conceptually I work the opposite way, starting with the omnis alone and getting them balanced and sounding good by themselves, then embellishing on that with the other channels I have available.  I like starting from a well balanced, natural ambient sound, then adding presence, focus, imaging and depth through the addition of the center mic(s).  Either approach can work, this just works best for me, partly because I began taping with spaced omnis rather than near-spaced pairs so this approach comes naturally to me.  But I also think it's helpful to build the mix this way from the bottom up (from the ambience inwards).  And when the omnis are considered the primary pair, that sort of opens things up to more non-mainstream options for what one might do with the "additional" center mics in trying various things over time.

The omnis sound pretty good alone, don't they?  I bet a lot of tapers may be surprised by that.  Especially since they are facing to the sides and not forward.



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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #87 on: April 05, 2018, 04:37:40 PM »
Don't worry about all this EQ stuff.  But do listen to each pair on its own, and I encourage you to listen carefully to identify the frequency balance thing I'm talking about in the center channel or center pair.  Not just with respect to this recording, but in general when using this technique.  Listen for any excessive energy or resonance in the lower mids and bass in the center pair which may tend to cloud the clarity of the mids in any way.  It also helps to compare what you hear in that below-mid frequency region with what the omnis are providing.

One way to test out this center pair frequency shaping aspect for yourself without using any EQ afterwards is to try switching in the low-cut on the mic bodies (if they have them) or on the recorder for the center pair, although that does sort of commit you to mixing with the omnis instead of keeping a fully independent center pair.  Besides making everything clearer in general and improving imaging, this can also allow you to use somewhat more center-pair level in the mix if appropriate, without cluttering things up.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #88 on: April 05, 2018, 04:40:36 PM »
The omnis sound pretty good alone, don't they?  I bet a lot of tapers may be surprised by that.  Especially since they are facing to the sides and not forward.

Yes, I think I've commented before that I was surprised at how good the omnis sound by themselves since this was indoors.  I think I also made an off-hand comment wondering if Chris Church tunes his omnis for being used farther from a sound source, since most tapers are doing that (would that be diffuse field?  I can't keep it straight).  If that's the case, I would guess that's part of why they sound so good.

If nothing else, this is definitely going to make me more inclined to try this sort of thing in the future, even indoors.  I've got some indoor shows coming up in the next few months where I might be able to try more OMT stuff (of course, I've also got some indoor shows were the spacing of my mics will be limited to the dimensions of my stupid head  >:D ).  I'm already trying to think of ways I could mount these omnis at Red Rocks this summer.  (Summer?  Sheeeeeeit...I'm going to start seeing show there in a month!)

I think I'll also play with this recording a bit more, taking your approach of starting with the omnis.  That seems to be consistent with rocksuitcase's approach of EQ'ing his omnis first.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #89 on: April 05, 2018, 05:26:50 PM »
I find that unless conditions are ideal, often I like to EQ the omni channel usually taking out high end above 3kHz gradually to 20kHz (always depends on source material)

I don't mean to turn this into too much of a discussion on tweaking EQ (keeping Heathen in mind at this point, but have been meaning to explore OMT EQ in depth, so definitely later).  And some of the difference in approach may be a result of the different omnis we are using.  But as a general trend, I don't like throwing away that high frequency omni ambience, for me much magic lies there.  It can open up the recording, and also provide sufficient high frequency energy in that region when that's needed without becoming strident, as can sometimes be the case when trying to add sufficient energy there by boosting that region in the center pair.  Again in general, I find a sort of loudness-curve shaped response tends to work well for the omnis (sort of the classic lopsided smile-shaped EQ, mostly emphasising the bottom, less mids, yet rising at the very top providing sufficient high frequency "air" so it doesn't sound dull or muffled, maybe somewhat distant but still retaining a nice live "sparkle" and naturalness.   And that loudness-curve trend thing sort of makes sense when you consider the lower level of the ambient sounds compared to the direct sound.

As for a generalization on EQing the center pair, it's mostly that smooth reduction in low frequency content as mentioned for less competition with the omnis down there.  If I want more clarity or presence (SBD like) I'll work the mid range and push up between 700 and 3kHz in the center mic or pair, which acts somewhat like a zoom control for vocals.  The part I find curious but seems to work well for blending the center seamlessly and allowing more center energy without the center over dominating the mix is a cut centered somewhere around 7-10kHz or there about. Keeps the center from getting "shouty" and calling attention to itself.  Perceptual HTRF stuff going on there for sure.*  I'm doing this monitoring through three front speakers (dedicated center speaker), but it seems to work the same (as far as I can tell, at least similarly) mixing to two channel stereo.



*BTW, I contacted David Greisinger recently and he kindly sent me his Personal Headphone Equalization App, which helps the user find a personal headphone equalization curve which matches the response of a speaker located directly in front of the listener.  The user adjusts frequency bands and balance controls to find the same apparent centered loudness level in each band.  The resulting curves can then be used for any stereo source listening by that user through those headphones.  This corrects for both the specific headphone's response as well as the listeners personal HRTF, producing much more natural headphone listening both in terms of frequency response and "out of head" spatial imaging.  I've not had a chance to do anything with it yet or go through the process yet, but am excited to do so.  I've asked his permission to discuss it on this board, which I plan to do in a separate thread at some point.  I suspect this is related to that lower treble center EQ cut I describe above.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 05:32:55 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #90 on: April 05, 2018, 06:08:30 PM »
But to emphasize GB's commentary- don't sweat the EQ stuff much, It's truly all to taste. And ALWAYS be judicious, less is more is generally the case with tonal balance EQ.
One thing To add on a tangent- I like to listen to the two channel "rough mix" 3 different ways before I decide if/how to EQ- over computer monitors using both Audacity and foobar2000, headphones, and in my car. So silly, but my car audio system is the most revealing of the three.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #91 on: April 05, 2018, 06:32:34 PM »
One thing To add on a tangent- I like to listen to the two channel "rough mix" 3 different ways before I decide if/how to EQ- over computer monitors using both Audacity and foobar2000, headphones, and in my car. So silly, but my car audio system is the most revealing of the three.
I try to do that as well.  My primary headphones (Beyer DT880 600 ohm) are on the bright side, so if I rely just on them the end result can sound dull on any other system.  So, in this case, I made some rough mixes and compared them through my main rig (Monitor Audio Silver 10s, Simaudio Moon 240i).  In this case I wasn't comparing different EQs, but different ratios of omnis to AT cards.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #92 on: April 05, 2018, 06:42:55 PM »
One thing To add on a tangent- I like to listen to the two channel "rough mix" 3 different ways before I decide if/how to EQ- over computer monitors using both Audacity and foobar2000, headphones, and in my car. So silly, but my car audio system is the most revealing of the three.
I try to do that as well.  My primary headphones (Beyer DT880 600 ohm) are on the bright side, so if I rely just on them the end result can sound dull on any other system.  So, in this case, I made some rough mixes and compared them through my main rig (Monitor Audio Silver 10s, Simaudio Moon 240i).  In this case I wasn't comparing different EQs, but different ratios of omnis to AT cards.

thats pretty much what i do. I fly by the seat of my pants if and i mean IF i do any EQ. I just go with what sounds right to me vs. any real concept or philosophy. You can tweak all day every day. I figure go with my gut and get it done.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2018, 07:32:22 PM »
I fly by the seat of my pants if and i mean IF i do any EQ. I just go with what sounds right to me vs. any real concept or philosophy. You can tweak all day every day. I figure go with my gut and get it done.

I do that then rationalize it and make long posts justifying to myself here.  ;)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2018, 10:59:48 PM »
Nothing really groundbreaking here compared to other setups in this thread, but I think this effort came out okay. 

Here's a link to the setup: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=151303.msg2264778#msg2264778

Here's a link to the recording: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186458.0

As always, input is very much appreciated.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2018, 05:55:13 AM »
Thank you for recording and photos. It is sounding very good, I like it a lot. Please, do you have recordings from others to compare (single pair mics)?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 05:57:52 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2018, 08:34:53 AM »
Thank you for recording and photos. It is sounding very good, I like it a lot. Please, do you have recordings from others to compare (single pair mics)?
If you mean others from the same show, there's this: https://archive.org/details/GarajMahal2018-05-11
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2018, 09:17:22 AM »
Thanks heathen, sounds good.  Interesting to compare the two recordings partly because they aren't a straight comp, made from quite different perspectives, one from out in the audience the other on stage, and also represent a quite different level of investment cost. The portrayal of the audience and room sound is quite different.  I don't have time to download and play with them today, but if I did it would be interesting to see how close I could get the two in terms of frequency response after some EQ adjustment.  That wouldn't effect differences in perspective, spatial balance, and mix balance, but is a good way to really understand the essence of the differences other than the spectral differences which strongly dominate any initial listening impression. 

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2018, 09:45:24 AM »

^^
Thanks for sharing the links heathen!

I found the comparison of onstage DPA 4006a omnis vs onstage DPA 4015c wide-cards interesting too.  One recording was made on 5/10 and the other on 5/11.  Same band, same taper.  I was very surprised at how much more I liked the omni recording vs  the subcards.  It is a shame that for what we do the omnis often have to take the backseat to the directional mics to avoid all of the "extraneous noise" surrounding the performance.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2018, 12:00:08 PM »
I found the comparison of onstage DPA 4006a omnis vs onstage DPA 4015c wide-cards interesting too.  One recording was made on 5/10 and the other on 5/11.  Same band, same taper.  I was very surprised at how much more I liked the omni recording vs  the subcards.

Can you describe what it is you like so much more about the omni recording?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2018, 12:35:25 PM »
^ Thanks for pointing me to these recordings.  I don't have a strong preference for either of these two.  Both are nice - I find myself liking some things about one more than the other and vice-versa.  In general, I like the spatial depth, overall smoothness and solid bottom of the omnis, and like the more distinct imaging and up-front presentation of the subcards.  I say this from comparing the same numbers played both nights.  If forced to choose a favorite, I'd probably give the nod to the subcards.

It's exactly this kind of "wanting the best of both" that makes multi-microphone combinations like OMT attractive to me (among other reasons).  Sure, really good 2 channel stereo recordings can have a clean minimalist purity and beauty to them which cannot be matched via mic combination techniques, but will always be more of "take what you get, like it or not" kind of thing.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2018, 01:01:01 PM »
FWIW I'm pretty sure Scott ran both omnis and subcards on 5/11.  I definitely remember seeing two pairs of mics on the stand.  I have no idea how to get in touch with him (met him for the first time that night), but maybe someone who does could cajole him into posting his other 5/11 recording for you guys...?
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2018, 01:35:55 PM »
Nothing really groundbreaking here compared to other setups in this thread, but I think this effort came out okay. 

Here's a link to the setup: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=151303.msg2264778#msg2264778

Here's a link to the recording: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=186458.0

As always, input is very much appreciated.
I listened to most of the LMA 5-11 recording this morning at work over cheap PC speakers. I liked the openness of tone and the balance of instruments seemed more distinct than I typically get out of these Logitechs.
Great job both recording and Post.
Thanks for sharing
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:37:50 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2018, 02:04:43 PM »
Thanks, that means a lot to me.

To be honest, if I hadn't gone with XY on the center pair I might have scrapped the omnis entirely because of how much crowd noise the omnis picked up.  The XY pair on their own, though, was just too narrow of an image for my taste so I kept the omnis in the mix. 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2018, 03:03:52 PM »
The XY pair on their own, though, was just too narrow of an image for my taste so I kept the omnis in the mix.

That's a good indication that you are doing OMT right!  Sort of like the inherent balance of a three leg stool.

I didn't listen to the entire recordings, but of what I did I prefered the portrayal of the audience reaction in yours.  More open, natural, less muffled, more spatially correct to my ear.  That's not necessarily with respect to the level balance of the audience, but at least for what I listened to the balance was in no way unacceptable.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #105 on: May 18, 2018, 05:56:28 PM »
The XY pair on their own, though, was just too narrow of an image for my taste so I kept the omnis in the mix.

That's a good indication that you are doing OMT right!  Sort of like the inherent balance of a three leg stool.

I didn't listen to the entire recordings, but of what I did I preferred the portrayal of the audience reaction in yours.  More open, natural, less muffled, more spatially correct to my ear.  That's not necessarily with respect to the level balance of the audience, but at least for what I listened to the balance was in no way unacceptable.
I keep marking this thread unread all day today as I wish to comment on that sentence heathen, but am moving so fast today- so briefly- the OMT mix uses the decorrelation aspect of the theory which makes the stereo illusion seem more natural. the psychoacoustic result, to my ears, is random audience noises such as talking or beer bottle drops are de-emphasized in an OMT mix when compared to the straight omni or straight center pair (all other things relative of course).
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:57:43 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2018, 09:20:58 AM »
I found the comparison of onstage DPA 4006a omnis vs onstage DPA 4015c wide-cards interesting too.  One recording was made on 5/10 and the other on 5/11.  Same band, same taper.  I was very surprised at how much more I liked the omni recording vs  the subcards.

Can you describe what it is you like so much more about the omni recording?

^ I enjoyed both of the recordings but I was sucked into the omni recording by the same strengths of this particular omni pull that you mentioned earlier.  The depth and fullness of the low end really grabbed me and I enjoyed the overall immersive feeling that the omni recording gave me.  The subcards were very powerful in their own right, crisp, clear and in your face, but in this case I enjoyed the total omni effect!




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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2018, 05:37:39 PM »
FWIW I'm pretty sure Scott ran both omnis and subcards on 5/11.  I definitely remember seeing two pairs of mics on the stand.  I have no idea how to get in touch with him (met him for the first time that night), but maybe someone who does could cajole him into posting his other 5/11 recording for you guys...?

https://archive.org/details/gm2018-05-11.dpa4015c.flac16

Here is the 4015 source if it helps to keep the conversation moving along. It’s not going to be an accurate comp since I used the Portico in front of the 788 but the relative soundstage of the recording shouldn't be affected.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #108 on: May 20, 2018, 09:31:30 AM »
^Thanks Scott.  Did you enable the "silk" option on the 5012 for the 4015 source linked to above??
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 12:50:29 PM by dactylus »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2018, 12:56:56 PM »
^Thanks Scott.  Did you enable the "silk" option on the 5012 for the 4015 source linked to above??

mmmmmnh, Silk.
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Offline djphrayz

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #110 on: June 26, 2018, 02:54:46 PM »
From previous thread https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg2250985#msg2250985


Quote from: Gutbucket
Here are a few tricks to maximize the spacing you can get with whatever bar you are using-
Point the omnis sideways, each facing away from the other.  You can probably gain a few inches additional spacing at minimum by using the length of the mic bodies and their position in the mounts to extend the capsules a bit further out to either side.

Would this omni configuration still be accurately documented as A-B?  Or is there another name for this configuration with the capsule ends pointed 180 degrees from one another?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #111 on: June 26, 2018, 03:48:17 PM »
Yes. "A-B" describes the omni pair, regardless of the angular orientation of the microphones.  The direction they point is more of a detail.  Pointing them outwards can help get a bit more spacing than you could otherwise, as well as increase the highest frequency stereo difference a bit if the omnis are somewhat directional.  Pointing them upwards instead of forward can act as tone control and reduce the high-frequency pickup of the main sound a bit.  Pointing them backwards maximizes the ambient and audience high frequency cues rather than those of the main sound, and maximally differentiates pickup in comparison to the forward facing center mic(s).

Play around with different orientations to see what works best in the mix with your center mic(s).  This is probably where different mics behave differently enough that a taper may have different preferences for what direction the omnis are pointed based upon personal preference and the gear used.  It can be somewhat subtle.  With really tiny omnis the effect of angular orientation will be insignificant, unless some kind of attachment is used to intentionally make them not tiny.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2018, 01:48:31 PM »
I've been thinking a bit about using a baffle with omnis in situations where really wide spacing isn't feasible.  One of the approaches I've been thinking about (and to be clear, I'm not claiming this is an original idea), is two small-ish circular baffles with some space between them and with the omnis mounted either flush or nearly flush with the surface of each baffle.  The general idea being something like this, but without the incorporated electronics and fake ears: https://3diosound.com/products/free-space-binaural-microphone

Right now my idea is a couple of these ( https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/87077700/ ) with a dowel or some tubing between them.  The dowel/tubing could then be held in a Rycote INV-style shock mount.

So my first question is whether the cork of those hot pads would be sufficient to block sound and make an effective baffle?  If not, what could I do to make them better (or, what could fill that role better)?  Also, any ideas about attaching the baffles to the central connector, particularly in a way that they can be taken apart for easier storage in a bag?

Edit: Another idea for the baffles, which would be much smaller and thus easier to transport, is some wooden coasters.  Again, one on each end of the connecting dowel or tube of some sort.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 02:17:00 PM by heathen »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2018, 02:59:41 PM »
I've been thinking a bit about using a baffle with omnis in situations where really wide spacing isn't feasible.  One of the approaches I've been thinking about (and to be clear, I'm not claiming this is an original idea), is two small-ish circular baffles with some space between them and with the omnis mounted either flush or nearly flush with the surface of each baffle.  The general idea being something like this, but without the incorporated electronics and fake ears: https://3diosound.com/products/free-space-binaural-microphone

Right now my idea is a couple of these ( https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/87077700/ ) with a dowel or some tubing between them.  The dowel/tubing could then be held in a Rycote INV-style shock mount.

So my first question is whether the cork of those hot pads would be sufficient to block sound and make an effective baffle?  If not, what could I do to make them better (or, what could fill that role better)?  Also, any ideas about attaching the baffles to the central connector, particularly in a way that they can be taken apart for easier storage in a bag?

Edit: Another idea for the baffles, which would be much smaller and thus easier to transport, is some wooden coasters.  Again, one on each end of the connecting dowel or tube of some sort.

I did something very similar to this for recording drum overheads with a pair of small omnis. I used two 45rpm singles with some camping pad foam glued to them threaded onto a piece of PVC. I tried a couple different ways but ended up using them spread about 5 inches apart with the mics around 1 inch from the barriers on the outside pointed slightly outward. I was looking to achieve a Jecklin disc type thing and it worked fairly well. I ended up using it on a lot of the percussion for the recording - there was a lot of percussion and once we got the drums to have that good stereo spread we found that miking the congas, bongos and other stuff the same way made the mix sit nice without too much panning.

I would suggest adding some foam or hairy fabric to the side of the disc to minimize reflections. If you use a single disc like a Jecklin it should be around 12" (people have done smaller with good results). If you use two discs and separate them they should get smaller the farther away they are.

The stereo separation happens largely in the high frequencies since the lower (longer) waveforms can get around the baffle.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #114 on: July 16, 2018, 03:09:41 PM »
I've been thinking a bit about using a baffle with omnis in situations where really wide spacing isn't feasible.  One of the approaches I've been thinking about (and to be clear, I'm not claiming this is an original idea), is two small-ish circular baffles with some space between them and with the omnis mounted either flush or nearly flush with the surface of each baffle.  The general idea being something like this, but without the incorporated electronics and fake ears: https://3diosound.com/products/free-space-binaural-microphone

Right now my idea is a couple of these ( https://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/87077700/ ) with a dowel or some tubing between them.  The dowel/tubing could then be held in a Rycote INV-style shock mount.

So my first question is whether the cork of those hot pads would be sufficient to block sound and make an effective baffle?  If not, what could I do to make them better (or, what could fill that role better)?  Also, any ideas about attaching the baffles to the central connector, particularly in a way that they can be taken apart for easier storage in a bag?

Edit: Another idea for the baffles, which would be much smaller and thus easier to transport, is some wooden coasters.  Again, one on each end of the connecting dowel or tube of some sort.
I like the general idea. From a pure acoustics pov I would think the ikea 7" hot pads are as small as you would want to go. Don't forget all you are influencing at 7" or less (or any baffle small enough to hold in one hand) is high frequencies and going any smaller (less than 5" IMO) would not be worth it (i.e. your coaster idea)
Although, I've read maybe on TS where folks have used coasters on a tabletop as a sort of stereo separator.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 04:15:57 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline heathen

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #115 on: July 16, 2018, 03:18:48 PM »
Do you think the cork would be fine on its own, or should I layer some other material with it?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #116 on: July 16, 2018, 05:31:54 PM »
We've talked about split-baffle ideas variations and in the past, both in the Oddball Mic Technique part 1 tread and in various Jecklin-disk threads.  I can't recall where specifically so you'd have to search them out.  The discussion in the OMT part 1 thread is probably somewhere close to the beginning, as I was messing around with Jecklin disks back in 2007 or so and strongly considered the idea of split small disks (I considered using clear CDR dummy discs) before going with the DIY spherical attachments instead.
 
I'll summarize a few issues which come to mind-

> Size of the baffle (and microphone distance from the baffle) determines the low frequency cut-off above which the baffle becomes effective.  Smaller = higher cut-off frequency.

> If mounting the mics right up against the baffle or flush-mounted in the baffle surface, it can be advantageous to use a hard, sonically-reflective baffle instead of a damped sonically-absorbent surface.  That creates a small boundary mount situation above the cutoff frequency.  That makes it unnecessary to try and evenly-damp the surface with respect to frequency, making the setup simpler and lighter-weight.  Mounting the mic on the baffle surface also maximizes the geometric "occlusion angle" - that is, how much the mic "sees" around the edge of the baffle, making a small baffle somewhat more geometrically effective above the cutoff frequency (the baffle "appears bigger" from the microphone's perspective, compared to spacing the mic away from the baffle, where it can "see further around the edges").

> If not mounting the mic directly to the baffle, use felt, foam, wool or a combination of materials to damp the reflection off the baffle.  To check effectiveness of the materials, hold the material against the baffle and place it close to your ear at an angle similar to cupping your hand to hear.  Play some music on the stereo and get up close to one of the tweeters.  Orient yourself so that the baffle is angled like a mirror reflecting the tweeter output into one ear.  Play with the baffle angle and listen for significant change in timbre of the reflected sound.  If it sounds brighter with the baffle reflecting the sound directly in, and less bright at other non-aligned angles, the damping material stands to be improved.

Raw cork will be quite reflective at these higher frequencies. It can work as a support disk, but think felt, wool blanket, or a couple layers of stuff like that glued to the cork disk.  Fur as used for wind protection isn't particularly good except maybe as a top cover layer, as the intent of wind protection fur is to not attenuate the high frequencies as much as practical.  You wan't the exact opposite for this- maximal attenuation within the frequency range in which the baffle is effective.

> Figure a way of adjusting the angle of the baffles on the bar, so you can play around with pointing them more forward rather than always facing directly to each side.
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Offline mjwin

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #117 on: July 16, 2018, 06:08:47 PM »
I've been thinking a bit about using a baffle with omnis in situations where really wide spacing isn't feasible.  One of the approaches I've been thinking about (and to be clear, I'm not claiming this is an original idea), is two small-ish circular baffles with some space between them and with the omnis mounted either flush or nearly flush with the surface of each baffle.
Some years back I made up a similar arrangement to that which you're suggesting.  To get close to head-spacing, I used 2 omni mics strapped together side to side but facing opposite directions, each with a right-angle xlr connector. Each mic protruded just far enough beyond its partner's rear XLR  connector to enable me to slip on a small baffle so that the mic diaphragm was flush with the surface.   In my case I wanted the whole thing to slide inside (an original) Rode blimp, so  the baffles were only 120mm diameter, and the holes offset in order for it all to align correctly.  I cut each baffle from rigid foam-core (art mount) board then glued a layer of softer foam to the outer surfaces.

The arrangement worked quite well for & wide ambiance & birdsong in the woods.  It also gave a much more realistic image with headphones than with speakers, which is what you tend to get with this kind of binaural arrangement.  The biggest problem for me was that the mics were too high-frequency directional left-right, so I couldn't actually point the array at anything!  I was using AT 3032 omni mics which are fairly typical for pencil omnis in being already quite directional above a couple of kHz. With the baffles in place I really did feel that there was a hole in the middle. 

It's interesting to experiment with baffle materials, though.  If you use a hard surface such as cork, you'll get more of a boundary effect at high frequencies, which will boost the top end up to 6dB or so. The larger the baffle/boundary, the lower will be the frequency at which this effect cuts in. Soft foam or felt will tend to act simply as a shield.  I think you'll need to make the discs out of something fairly rigid which can be slipped on/off at ease (wooden coasters sound ok),  then you can try different surface coatings, or even different materials each side so that you can swap around.  It doesn't seem to make much difference what, if anything, is between the baffles (as in that slightly wacky fake-ear contraption you linked to!)
 
I use the Rycote INV-7 shockmounts which are quite rigid, and one of these will easily hold your pair of mics in a fairly compact arrangement, then the baffles of choice can be slipped into place when you set up.  Thinking out aloud here, once you have the mics mounted you could also drop over a  single large (12") foam covered central baffle with a slit in it to get an approximation of a Jecklin disk. This will give a bit less shadowing to the front / rear, so might be better for capturing a performance of some sort.  But then, if you want a small rig, it might not be ideal.

There are a lot of subtle variations possible with this kind of arrangement and few hard & fast rules.  I always say:  if it sounds good, it is good:)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #118 on: July 17, 2018, 09:58:01 AM »
Welcome to the thread mjwin.  Seems you'll be right at home here with these often DIY focused approaches.

The biggest problem for me was that the mics were too high-frequency directional left-right, so I couldn't actually point the array at anything!  I was using AT 3032 omni mics which are fairly typical for pencil omnis in being already quite directional above a couple of kHz. With the baffles in place I really did feel that there was a hole in the middle.
^
If using these split-baffled A-B omnis as part of a 3 or more channel OMT array, "hole-in-the-middle-ness" becomes a feature rather than a bug, and is filled by the forward-facing directional center microphone without excessive interference, but with just the right amount of overlap or with the omni pair.   And this is partly why I recommend figuring a way of adjusting the angle of the baffles as a way to experiment with facing them somewhat forward, say +/- 45 degrees rather than directly to the sides, which is likely to be more important if using the split-baffled omni pair on their own without a forward-facing mic or mic array in the center.

In my 6 channel setup, where I'm using sideways and forward-facing near-spaced supercards as the primary Left/Center/Right array for mid and high frequencies, I'd choose to angle the baffles backwards rather than forwards in many situations, to more strongly differentiate the diffuse ambience/audience reaction picked up by the baffled omnis from the front direct-arriving sound dominant in the L/C/R array.  The front direct-arriving and ambient diffuse-arriving lower frequencies which the omnis provide below the rolloff of the directional supercardioids are of a long enough wavelength that they will not be affected by the orientation of the baffles.  The only parameter which strongly affects the quality of the low frequency pickup is the actual spacing distance between the omnis, regardless of baffles or attachments.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2018, 01:16:43 PM »
Transfering a few posts to follow from another thread as they are OT there and really belong in this one instead.
 
These are near-spaced stereo setups which allow for varying pickup-pattern and in the second case the angle between microphones in combination with pickup-pattern, after the recording has been made.  Both require one to choose the desired spacing between microphones prior to recording, which is not adjustable afterwards.

They are indeed oddball in how they are set up, what they can do and the flexibility they can provide, yet are essentially standard near-spaced stereo pair arrangements otherwise.

Original thread is here- Unusual Schoeps MK8 (eBay Germany)
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #120 on: August 01, 2018, 01:26:02 PM »
Near-spaced Straus-packet pair-

Here's a suggestion for a practical implementation for tapers who like using standard near-spaced stereo pair arrangements, which provides the capability to go back after the recording has been made and vary the pickup patterns of the microphones.

One needs two pairs of microphones with different pickup patterns and the ability to record all four channels. For maximum pattern flexibility use pair of omnis and a pair figure-8s.  Don't have omnis and eights?  This works for varying pattern seamlessly between whatever pairs of decently-matched microphones one has available - say between subcardioid and supercardioid, or between omni and supercardioid, providing the option of choosing any pattern in between the two afterward.   The setup will be cleaner and more easily managed if using all end-address microphones, or all side-address microphones.

Arrange the mics in two pairs such that in each pair the two different-pattern microphones form a coincident pair, with one directly above the other and both facing the same direction.   Do the same on both sides of your favorite near-spaced stereo pair arrangement.  Use standard over/under-style Mid/Side mounts and windscreens (with each omni/supercard pair in this example facing the same direction).  Record all four channels.  Afterwards, cross-fade between the omnis and supercards to derive whatever pattern you wish between the two. 

Can use a standard Mid/Side decoder to do the cross fading if you like, by feeding the omni into the Mid input and supercard into the Side input, and using only the Left channel output.  100% Mid = omni, 100% Side = supercard, 50/50 ratio = subcardioid, choose any pattern you wish in between.  Do that for both sides of the near-spaced stereo pair. 

Otherwise just mix the two to find what combination works best, and don't worry about what patterns you actually end up with

 

If needing even more control, one can use this method to choose slightly different patterns for Left and Right, and/or apply differential EQ to vary pickup pattern by frequency and do so independently for each side.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 05:22:50 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #121 on: August 01, 2018, 01:31:08 PM »
Two Mid/Side pairs as near-spaced stereo array providing variable pattern/microphone-angle-

This is a very interesting setup possibility for a near-spaced stereo pair.  The more I think about it, the more I like it.  Near-spacing distance between microphones remains constant, yet this allows one to vary both pickup-pattern and microphone angle.  Choice of pattern and angle is linked, just as with standard Mid/Side.  First thought and most straightforward would be to set this up with both Mid/Side pairs parallel to each other and pointing directly forward.  However, pointing the two Mid/Side pairs such that they face directly to either side instead of forward offers a far more useful range of pattern/angle combinations. In which case, adjustment of the Mid/Side ratios allows one to vary pattern/angle between forward-facing parallel figure-8's (Sometimes described as a Faulkner phased array) through cardioids with a 180 degree angle between them.  At Mid/Side ratios in between those extremes one will derive supercardioids with an angle somewhat wider than 90 degrees and hypercardioids at a somewhat narrower angle.  Pattern and angle can be varied seamlessly across this spectrum after the recording has been made, with the decision of what sounds best made by ear.


Setup for two near-spaced M/S pairs-

Use two Mid/Side pairs with cardioid Mids.  Space the two pairs 17cm apart (or 20, 25, 30cm or whatever near-spacing you want), and angle them such that the Cardioid Mids are facing directly to the sides (180 degrees away from each other). Both Side microphones should have their positive polarity lobe facing forward, so flip the Side figure-8 of the Left pair so that it's positive polarity lobe is facing forward instead of rearward. 

Record both raw M/S stereo pairs (4 channels total).  Let's call the Left-side M/S pair- pair 1, and the Right M/S pair- pair 2.
After recording, you run both raw Mid/Side pairs through Mid/SIde to Left/Right decoders.  The Left output of Pair 1 is routed to Stereo Left.  The Left output of Pair 2 is routed to Stereo Right. Set the ratio to determine the pattern and angle (both remaining linked, as it always does with standard Mid/Side) from forward-facing figure-8 through sideways facing cardioid.  Typically one would use the same ratio for both Mid/Side pairs, but one could use different ratios on each side to choose different patterns and angles for Left versus Right.

Cool multichannel surround / ambience channels option-

The Right channel outputs from both Mid/Side decoders provide rear-facing virtual microphones with a pattern and angle that mirrors the forward-facing microphones on either side.  If you understand how to dial in a different Mid/Side ratio for Left versus Right in a typical stereo Mid/Side setup, you'll see how you are able to choose a different combination of pattern and angle for the rear-facing ambience channels.


A few thoughts-

While going through this, after realizing that it makes more sense to point the Mid/Side pairs sideways instead of forward and makign the drawings, I realized that there is nothing new under the sun.  Kudos to Jerry Bruck and Schoepes for basically pioneering this approach already with their KFM 360. This is basically the KFM 360 arrangement except substituting cardioids for the flush-mounted sphere baffled omnis.

Over a decade back, I schemed about of ways of emulating the KFM360 as a lower-cost, headworn HTRF setup.  I ended up going with an alternate 4-channel setup which did not use Mid/Side pairs. Still these ideas have been been in the back of my mind since then, and this seems a setup that seems far more practical actual real taper use.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 03:07:24 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #122 on: August 01, 2018, 05:02:29 PM »
I applaud the use of MS with spaced pairs.   Seems like best of both worlds. 

I've been playing a bit with DMS to change the M pattern.  I suppose you could do a pseudo-spaced variant with the use of delays on both the DM signals and duplicated S signals.  Clearly not the same, but may have possibilities for front to back depth perception, and once enough delay is introduced polarity flips on the duplicated S might get useful.  You could make a huge mess too.  So far I've only tried delaying one of the M elements to good effect. 

Down that tangent, a good head stretching exercise, it was pointed out that a mic like the Sennheiser MKH800 Twin or Lewitt LCT-640-TS can be used as a stereo mic, and the pattern is really the 'same-as' MS with an omni M.  To check it out, I duplicated the source, converted one to omni and the other to figure 8, then ran those through MS processing.  I really couldn't detect an obvious difference comparing direct result with matrixed result.  Anyway, a nice head game to make you think about possibilities and realities.  I expect doing 'proper' MS with omni M would have a very different sonic tilt due to the differences in proper pressure omni versus constructed pressure gradient omni, along with the high frequency directivity differences between the two approaches (90º difference in this example). 


Carry on....

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #123 on: August 01, 2018, 06:39:17 PM »
Yeah, Mid/Side stuff is fun to think through.

The next logical step with the near-spaced Mid/Side pair setup described above would be to replace the two standard Mid/Side pairs with Double-Mid/Side setups.  One could then adjust the pickup pattern and microphone angle independently. And because of that, one could set it up with both Double-Mid/Side setups pointing directly forward.  Cool thing is that would only require 6 recording channels in total to make that work.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #124 on: August 01, 2018, 06:39:52 PM »
I really couldn't detect an obvious difference comparing direct result with matrixed result.

I've noticed playing around with Ambisonics (basically the same as Double-M/S in the horizontal plane) that it can be very difficult to discern changes of pattern when listened to in isolation (mono), especially with recordings made out in the diffuse field at a significant distance from the source, except for listening for low-frequency response differences (omni providing the most low bass, figure-8 the least).  It's really only when two or more channels interact with each other (electronically or in air) that the differences come to the perceptual fore.  For instance, except for the low bass response, an omni and a figure-8, both placed out in a diffuse environment sound about the same, while a pair of coincident omnis verses a pair of coincident crossed fig-8's sound obviously and completely different when listened to in stereo.

Yesterday when thinking about and writing up my posts on PolarFlex in the other thread, I found a sample player embedded at the bottom of the Schoeps PolarFlex plugin web page.  It allows one to listen to two different recordings using a stereo pair of PolarFlex'd microphones.  One is a main microphone pair (diffuse field) and the other a pair of stereo piano spots (much closer).  For each source, one can choose between listening to the stereo omnis in isolation, the stereo figure-8s in isolation, and between two different PolarFlex combinations of those mics.  The two combinations are polar opposites (pun) in terms of their polar response's varying by frequency. One is omni directional at low frequencies morphing to bi-directional at high-frequencies, and the other more or less the inverse.

What is interesting is using the sample player to listen for what I describe above.  Start by putting only one headphone ear cup on (or otherwise selecting only the Left or Right channel to monitor).  With the more distantly mic'd main-pair sample, switching between the solo-pre omni and solo-pre fig-8 sounds more-or-less identical.  Yet when listened to in stereo the difference is easily discernible.   Likewise with the two PolarFlex settings- listening the a single channel they sound more or less the same except for a somewhat larger frequency balance difference than the omni and fig-8 solo'd.  Yet when listened to in stereo the difference is immediately obvious.

With the stereo piano spots recording the differences between the solo-pre omni and fig-8 are greater due to the closer "free-field" mic positioning, yet the same basic trend holds- the differences are far more discernable in stereo than as a mono feed of either channel.

Link to the page- https://schoeps.de/en/products/spezialmikrofone/polarflex/polarflex-plug-in.html
Sample player in at the very bottom on the right side of the page.


[Edit]- I also notice the same with the my OMT setups. On more distant diffuse-field recordings, the individual channels often sound almost identical to each other when listened to in isolation, other than the basic frequency response differences of the microphones themselves.  It's only upon combination that various spatial qualities and properties emerge.  That aspect is rather analogous to holography in this way (holophony?).  Where as for small room and closer-perspective recordings, I'm more often able to easily hear the differences between channels in isolation.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 06:51:33 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #125 on: August 02, 2018, 11:32:02 AM »
OK, I'm on board the oddball train.  I've run fixed ORTF and MS for a while now and I really enjoy MS for being able to dial it in different directions in post.  I now want to goof around with the Schoeps Polarflex plugin.  While I do not have MK2's I do have matched pair of MK5's and with a matched pair of MK8's so it seems silly not to try something weird. 

With that said I have reached out to Scott at SRS so see if he can make the mounts.  I have sent him gutbucket's sketch and the Schoeps brochure showing the Polarflex mount.  I'll report back with any progress as it has been made.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #126 on: August 02, 2018, 11:55:21 AM »
Cool. Will be interested to hear how it works out.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #127 on: August 02, 2018, 01:02:21 PM »
This is all very intriguing. With 2x MK4v + mk8 I can do double m/s and still have from on the mixpre6 for a
Pair of spaced mk2xs omnis. Hmmmm.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #128 on: August 02, 2018, 03:29:43 PM »
Had you in the back of my mind thinking about this Noah, as I know you have both the mics and the predilection to pull it off.

You probably want to keep your wide-cardioid MK22s in your standard reference setup, but it may be useful to try them as Mids in place of the cardioid MK4Vs.  Doing so would shift the virtual cardioid pattern of the Mid/Side adjustment range somewhat forward rather than pointing directly to either side, and open up the other virtual patterns slightly for the same virtual angle.  It's likely that using the MK22s as Mids you'll just want a bit more spacing between pairs, same as with standard near-spaced setups using various pickup patterns.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #129 on: August 02, 2018, 04:26:32 PM »
Thanks a lot for interesting posts, I will read it more times. And thanks for nice sketch which makes it clear.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #130 on: August 02, 2018, 06:01:55 PM »
To add: kindms and I have done single M/S inside of split omnis (100cm). It can be very yummy and also provides you with a solo 2 channel mix if you just want a "backup" in case you don't prefer the spaced omni contribution. I wholeheartedly endorse this double MS configuration. We don't have the proper combination of mics to do this however. lol
We have the 414's and any number of cardiods though to do a rough version.

rigpimp and noah I really think that each of your combos of Schoeps would result in a great recording.
Thanks GB
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #131 on: August 02, 2018, 10:49:48 PM »
it can be very difficult to discern changes of pattern when listened to in isolation (mono), especially with recordings made out in the diffuse field at a significant distance from the source, except for listening for low-frequency response differences (omni providing the most low bass, figure-8 the least).  It's really only when two or more channels interact with each other (electronically or in air) that the differences come to the perceptual fore.

Very true. 

I neglected to say the sample I experimented with was a stereo drum kit recording at about 6 feet out, so very definite spread in the free field. 

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #132 on: August 03, 2018, 11:45:48 AM »
I've thought about incorporating these kinds of sideways-facing Mid/Side pair arrangements in multichannel OMT setups.  Several are mentioned in the latter pages of the OMT illustrated PDF booklet I uploaded near the end of the OMT part 1 thread last year.  What is different in the recent posts above is simply applying the same concept to more typical near-spaced stereo pair setups.

Attached is a PDF showing a few OMT variants using sideways-facing Mid/Side pairs-
The first is a 6-channel setup consisting of 3 Mid/Side pairs:  It starts with a standard Mid/Side forward-facing pair in the center between two wide spaced omnis - the setup rocksuitcase just posted about above.  It takes that and adds front/back facing fig-8s coincident with the wide-spaced omnis, turning them into Mid/Side pairs with control over front/back directivity.  That provides full-range pattern control (omni>subcard>cardioid>supercardioid>figure-8) over the wide-spaced omnis with the ability to choose if those virtual patterns face forward or backward.

The second two are 8-channel OMT setups which I hope to experiment with next, both variations on the 6-channel arrangement I'm currently using, with the near-spaced front/back OCT setup (Double-OCT?) in the center rather than a Mid/Side pair in the center.   

In the first of these I plan to place figure-8s with the omnis to form front/back Mid/Side pairs just like the 6-channel version above, but using the OCT arrangement in the center.  I suspect this will be advantageous in good acoustics and outdoors, by providing the ability to reduce the sensitivity of the wide omnis to direct sound arriving from the front, providing the ability to use more ambience, audience and room-sound from the wide omnis without getting excessive direct sound through those channels.

The second 8-channel variation places the two figure-8s coincident with the sideways facing Left/Right OCT supercardioids instead of the omnis, providing the ability to dial in forward angle for those channels which may prove helpful in smaller rooms and difficult acoustics.   This is very similar to the near-spaced Mid/Side pairs setup outlined above, except with the addition of the front/rear-facing center mics and wide omnis.

[Edited to update PDF with 3rd array, and update description above]
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 12:13:58 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #133 on: August 03, 2018, 12:18:59 PM »
Sorry to veer off course a bit here, but I've been thinking about four channel setups like a pair of spread omnis with a pair of directional mics in the middle.  What I'm wondering about is the relationship between the SRA of each pair to the other.  So, using that Sengpiel Audio visualizer tool, if I have a pair of omnis 60 cm apart then that gives me a SRA of 118.1 degrees.  Assuming that's the right SRA for the specific location/circumstances, should the directional pair's SRA ideally be the same as that of the omni pair (assuming something like mid/side that can be adjusted in post isn't being used)?  If the SRAs are significantly different, won't the blend of mics result in a weird stereo image?

(I should add that the end goal here is stereo playback.  I imagine that surround/multi-channel playback as the end goal would have a different impact.)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 12:44:26 PM by heathen »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #134 on: August 03, 2018, 12:23:59 PM »


[Edited to update PDF with 3rd array, and update description above]
I grabbed it and added to the others. THANKS so much Lee!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2018, 12:58:03 PM »
Hey Kyle, I basically pulled a few setups out of the previous illustrated OMT booklet to make the PDF I just posted above.  I did simplify the images and change the wording a bit, but in essence the info there isn't really any different than what I'd already posted.   It mostly puts these setups using sideways-facing Mid/Side arrangements together and identifies that as a category. 

And as always, thanks for your interest and insights!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 03:51:51 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2018, 02:23:32 PM »
Sorry to veer off course a bit here, but I've been thinking about four channel setups like a pair of spread omnis with a pair of directional mics in the middle.  What I'm wondering about is the relationship between the SRA of each pair to the other.  So, using that Sengpiel Audio visualizer tool, if I have a pair of omnis 60 cm apart then that gives me a SRA of 118.1 degrees.  Assuming that's the right SRA for the specific location/circumstances, should the directional pair's SRA ideally be the same as that of the omni pair (assuming something like mid/side that can be adjusted in post isn't being used)?  If the SRAs are significantly different, won't the blend of mics result in a weird stereo image?

That's one way of approaching it, and partly informed my thought process along with other ideas when working up these setups initially.  But I now don't think it applies in any straightforward way.  And think the opposite is what actually works best-  very different SRAs from the omni and center pairs

The SRA curves are empirically derived from listeners with 2-channel recordings made using various combinations of microphone spacing and angle.  It's an attempt to derive objective conclusions from subjective psychoacoustics, addressing situations where only a single pair of microphones is used rather than more than one pair.  Even in Michael William's extension of this approach to multi-channel surround recording, each sector around the playback array is always covered by no more than a single microphone pair, the intent being to have each sector line up with the adjacent sectors on either side without a gap or excessive overlap. It specifically does not address content outside the SRA or "cross-talk" from the microphones of non-adjacent sectors, which is related to what you are asking about. 

OMT differs by relying on the overlap and intentionally managing it.  It pushes the omnis wider than one would probably want without the center mic or pair to intentionally tend toward a hole-in-the-middle which the center mic or pair then fills with partial overlap. Yes that omni spacing may or may not produce a seemingly appropriate SRA angle by charts, yet SRA imaging only weakly applies to non-uniformly distributed omni pair imaging (hence the middle-hole thing), and the center pair is typically dialed in such that it provides less overall width than one would want without combination with the omnis.

I think that explains the essence of what's going on, but stated another way from experience..

With wide-spaced omnis + a center Mid/Side pair, I always end up dialing in far less stereo width from the center pair than I would without the omnis.  Say I'd choose a 50/50 Mid/Side ratio as being best when just using center Mid/Side pair on its own.  When combining with the wide omnis I'm likely to dial that back to something like a 80/20 or 90/10 ratio of Mid/Side.  If the same SRA was desirable with the omni pair and center pair, there would be no reason dial back the center pair with a more Mid-heavy ratio when combined with the omnis.

If you go to the Sengpiel Audio visualizer and choose a 60cm omni spacing the SRA is 118 degrees.  Switching to X/Y supercards it takes a 107 degree angle between microphones to produce an equivalent 118 degree SRA.   That's a combination I'm quite likely to use for an X/Y pair on its own, but not one I'd be likely to decide is best in combination with the omnis.

By contrast, here is a combination I'd be likely to use- A pair of 1.5m spaced omnis (around the spacing I typically use for OMT) has an SRA of around 40 degrees total.  A pair of X/Y supercards with a narrow 20-degree angle between them produces a super-wide SRA of 220 degrees or so.   

Empirically I've found it works best when the SRAs of the omnis and center pair are sort of tending towards opposite opposite extremes rather than close to the same.  It's probably another case of achieving good differentiation between pairs so they do not "step on each others toes", rather than trying to achieve similar SRAs across both pairs. The imaging of the omnis positioning discernable sources widely near or outside the speaker locations, while the imaging from the X/Y pair positions discernable sources more narrowly across the center between the speakers.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 04:06:25 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2018, 02:40:48 PM »
Thanks for the explanation.  I may be revising my plans for the show I'm going to tonight based on this information.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #138 on: August 04, 2018, 04:17:26 PM »
Nothing terribly innovative here, but I'd like to share my reasoning for the setup (and find out how wrong my thinking may have been): http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=187418.0

I've got DPA 4061s on a TV antenna, spread about five feet.  Nothing much to say about that, other than that it was heavily influenced by Gutbucket's recent comments about my SRA question.

Roughly in the middle I've got the pair of Audio-Technica AE5100s.  I've tried XY from this same location, between split omnis (for reference: https://archive.org/details/garajmahal2018-05-11.AT4031.CA14), so I wanted to try something different.  I've got a DIN/ORTF combo mount for the AT4031s that I can squeeze the AE5100s into, but I wanted to configure the AE5100s in a way that would maximize sound from the stage hitting the mics on axis.  Playing around with the Sengpiel visualizer, I ballparked that if I had the AE5100s AB about 20 cm apart, and at around a 75* angle between them, I could get an SRA that should nicely cover the stage from that distance.  My thinking was that this would give me a pretty solid center "image" to compliment the wide split of the omnis, without making the center too smooshed like XY might.  My goal was basically keeping a fairly wide soundstage once it's all mixed together.  The Rode bar I used allowed me to get the mic spacing pretty much dead on, but I had to eyeball the angle.

I haven't mixed it all together yet, but on an initial listen I think it sounds pretty good.  The DPAs will likely need some EQ to keep the bass from getting too flabby when both sources are combined, but even without EQ I'm happy with the sound.  One thing that's particularly gratifying is that both sources sound good on their own, but mixing them together is definitely an improvement.

To be clear, I'm not trying to say that I've done anything new here.  Nor am I trying to say that this was the ideal setup for this spot.  It will be interesting to compare the Garaj Mahal show with this one, though, mostly to compare the results in terms of soundstage.  As always, I appreciate any comments and criticisms (though I'm sure it will be much more helpful once I actually post the recording!).

Is there any interest in me posting a raw sample of each source so people can do their own mixing/EQ?  I'm happy to do so if anyone wants.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #139 on: August 06, 2018, 06:33:42 PM »
Should be interesting comparing your recordings made with these two similar setups using the same microphones- the first with an relatively-wide angled X/Y directional center pair and the second with a near-spaced PAS directional center pair.  Are all other variables other than the band and date generally the same?  (Venue, recording location, omnis used and their spacing, etc?)


..I wanted to configure the AE5100s in a way that would maximize sound from the stage hitting the mics on axis

That is a very appropriate fundamental goal for the center pair IMO, and there are several ways of achieving it.  Each presents different implications-

Your method of playing around with the Sengpiel visualizer variables to find a near-spaced combination of pattern/angle/spacing that points the microphones directly at the PA, is one of them.  This is the essence behind the Improved PAS technique of which you are aware, which consists of a table indicating the most appropriate spacing between microphones based on the Point-At-Stacks angle between them, such that the resulting SRA angle equals the PAS angle.  The table simplifies the process by not requiring online access to the visualizer and not requiring playing with the variables to find the solution each time.   The Improved PAS technique and Sengpiel visualizer data upon which it is based assumes we want an SRA which is equal to the orchestra angle / PAS angle.  As I mentioned in my previous post above , that's almost always appropriate for a two channel stereo microphone arrangement, yet may or may not be optimal for a stereo main microphone arrangement built upon the combination of of more than two pairs..

Another is to run the center pair as a coincident X/Y arrangement, except using a narrower mic angle than you'd typically want if the X/Y stereo recording was intended to be used on its own.  In that case the X/Y angle is equal to the PAS angle and the microphones are pointed directly at each PA.  SRA will be much wider and discrete imaging across the center will be tight and more compact.  I'd suggest trying this arrangement for your next recording at this same venue, keeping the other variables unchanged.  You'll then have all three setups to compare against one another.

Wide-angled X/Y center pair (appropriate microphone angle and SRA for an X/Y pair alone) with mics not pointed directly at the PA.
Near-spaced PAS center pair (appropriate spacing/angle and SRA for a spaced-pair alone) with the mic pointed directly at the PA.
Narrow-angled X/Y center pair (less appropriate microphone angle and SRA for an X/Y pair alone, but likely good with the omnis) with the mic pointed directly at the PA.

At that point you can try something interesting while comparing the three recordings.  Besides comparing each as mixed in a straightforward fashion, try inserting a stereo-width adjustment tool in the signal path of the center pair.  You can then play with making the center pair contribution wider or narrower (all the way down to a monophonic center) while listening in combination with the wide omnis.  Although this kind of stereo-width adjustment is intended for coincident-pair arrangements such as Mid/Side and X/Y, it can also be applied to your near-spaced pair.  The range of adjustment before comb filtering problems become audible will be more limited with the near-spaced pair (listen for it by muting the omnis and dialing the width of the near-spaced pair all the way down to mono). 

We've discussed in the past how to do this using two back-to-back Mid/Side matricies (L/R>M/S>[ratio adjustment]>L/R) and how its easier to use a single instance of a stereo width adjustment in the DAW software (most typically accessed through the panning control for a stereo channel) or a Mid/Side based stereo-width plugin, both of which do the same thing.  I can explain that in more detail again if you like.  Here's good free VST plugin with this capability - https://www.voxengo.com/product/msed/

A comparison made along with center width-adjustment will be illustrative in a couple ways- First, you are quite likely to find in an altered-width setting that works better than a straight mix of the two pairs, and this will be a good starting point setting for other recordings made using the same setup.  Second, you can better compare the different center mic-pair arrangements against each other after each has been tweaked to achieve its own optimal center width and blend with the omnis.  And third, you can mute the omnis to find how non-optimal that setting is for the center pair on its own without the omnis.

Quote
My thinking was that this would give me a pretty solid center "image" to compliment the wide split of the omnis, without making the center too smooshed like XY might.  My goal was basically keeping a fairly wide soundstage once it's all mixed together.

How smooshed or stretched is best is a large part of what you will be determining with this.  In my experience, it's much better to have the center pair contribution smooshed rather than stretched or even optimally-wide (for use on its own), since the omnis will be stretching out the center and usually don't need help in conveying additional width.  Consider the simplified setup of a single forward-facing center microphone between the two wide omnis, in which there is no stereo width provided by the center microphone at all.  It works, quite often far better than a pair of omnis alone, but can usually be improved by introducing some stereo width to the center.  The question is how much center width is most appropriate?  The answer IME is always "somewhere in between a single mono center microphone and an X/Y pair optimized for good stereo width on its own.  Mono is too narrow, optimized X/Y on its own, too wide.  The same applies to near-spaced center configs.

The bummer is not having either the omnis nor center pair fully optimized for use on their own, but that's the price to pay for achieving something superior than could be achieved without both pairs in combination.  That said, there is nothing wrong with preferring to optimize each pair on its own, which provides better redundancy should one pair fail, rather than pursuing the most optimized combination which relies on both working.

Quote
One thing that's particularly gratifying is that both sources sound good on their own, but mixing them together is definitely an improvement.


That's a good indication of being on the right track.  The trade-off I mention above is between how much of an improvement that represents, when weighed against further improvements that push each source towards not being as good on its own without the other. 

My current thinking on this is to always have a the directional center microphone or pair pointed directly at the source, to use a coincident center arrangement for that pair to minimize phase interaction problems, and to adjust the stereo width of the center contribution afterwards as appropriate.   It may seem contradictory that I'm using a near-spaced 3-microphone arrangement in the center of my 6-channel OMT setup, but the difference is that even though this 3-mic arrangement is near-spaced, it provides a direct source-pointed hard-center channel and is specifically designed to minimize phase interaction problems between the 3 channels.

Quote
Is there any interest in me posting a raw sample of each source so people can do their own mixing/EQ?  I'm happy to do so if anyone wants.

I'd like to play with samples of these two recordings (or three if you decide to try the suggested PAS X/Y variation as well) to help check my thinking on all this using someone else's recordings other than my own.  It makes for a nice opportunity when the there is only one significant variable which changes between recordings (other than the band).
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 09:32:10 AM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #140 on: August 06, 2018, 08:08:20 PM »
Should be interesting comparing your recordings made with these two similar setups using the same microphones- the first with an relatively-wide angled X/Y directional center pair and the second with a near-spaced PAS directional center pair.  Are all other variables other than the band and date generally the same?  (Venue, recording location, omnis used and their spacing, etc?)

The venue and recording location are the same, but the mics are different.  The Garaj Mahal show was the XY AT4031s with split CA14 omnis, whereas this Breakfast show was AB AT AE5100s with split DPA 4061s.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2018, 09:21:55 PM »
Quote
Is there any interest in me posting a raw sample of each source so people can do their own mixing/EQ?  I'm happy to do so if anyone wants.

I'd like to play with samples of these two recordings (or three if you decide to try the suggested PAS X/Y variation as well) to help check my thinking on all this using someone else's recordings other than my own.  It makes for a nice opportunity when the there is only one significant variable which changes between recordings (other than the band).

You've given me a lot to think about, as usual.  In the meantime, here's a link to download a sample of the raw sources on their own (link good for seven days): https://we.tl/89Rd74EsX5

I'll confess that part of my desire to make sure each source sounds good on its own is to continue my evaluation of the AE5100 because there aren't a lot of tapers out there using it.  I may even post the AE5100 source separate from the final four-mic mix.  I think this was only my second outing with the AE5100s, and so far I continue to think they have a lot of promise.

I would love to hear what anyone does with the samples!
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #142 on: August 07, 2018, 10:03:21 AM »
Thanks, I may have some time in the evenings this week before I head out of town.

I'll also say that my listening preference has shifted somewhat over the years, which is inevitably influencing my comments above.  I've always loved detail, clarity, stereo width and immersion.  These days I find I also really value a strong, solid, well-anchored center as a vital foundational element that conveys realism and naturalness.  Sort of the kernel from which everything extends and emerges except for ambience and audience reaction - best when not obviously identifiable in itself, except upon its absence or when contrasted against recordings which do not have that quality.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2018, 01:18:07 PM »
After a cursory search I don't think this link has been posted here before: https://www.merging.com/news/use-cases/morten-linderg-2l-norway

While I doubt anyone here is going to try to duplicate that rig for some random jamband show, it's interesting at the very least.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2018, 01:55:48 PM »
After a cursory search I don't think this link has been posted here before: https://www.merging.com/news/use-cases/morten-linderg-2l-norway

While I doubt anyone here is going to try to duplicate that rig for some random jamband show, it's interesting at the very least.
Wow! All DPA full bodies and with z axis stuff in the arrays. I counted 11 mics in the one array titled "Remote galaxy mic array"
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2018, 03:53:26 PM »
^The horizontal-plan portion of that microphone setup looks to be based upon Michael William's Multichannel Microphone Array Design (MMAD), an extension of his two-channel Stereo Zoom technique to multichannel surround which followers of this thread will recall me referencing regularly.  In addition, the 2L approach adds the four "Z-axis" microphone channels spaced above the horizontal-plan portion of the array for compatibility with contemporary film-surround playback schemes that aim to add a height dimension via an additional array of speakers located above the horizontal plane.

I'd like to hear the recordings.  This array, used on its own without spot-mics (which is not to say there is anything wrong with tastefully employed spot mics), represents something of a "purist location surround recording technique" based upon a combination of time-of-arrival differences as well as level-difference between channels.  It is in some ways the decadent descendant of Decca tree and other spaced-microphone-array techniques.

I suggest use of these complicated looking arrays by audiophile-quality-oriented recording labels can be interpreted as indirect proof that coincident or near-single-point microphone surround recording techniques (ambisonics, double Mid/Side, and whatever) do not work as well as dedicated spaced arrays for quality surround recording of music.  If they did no one would have to go to the trouble to rig up these kinds of jungle-gym-like spaced arrays.  Regardless of the marketing claims of the single-point multichannel microphone purveyors, those systems are really mostly about compactness, simplification and ease of use, rather than about achieving the most robust and highest quality musical results.

That said, I'm suspicious of the true value of using four separate elevation microphones in most recording situations.  I don't doubt that playback through a system using height speakers can be more immersive and convincing, only that such content cannot be essentially "ambience extracted" from the horizontal portion of the microphone array without much of an impact on perceived quality.  Consider that extraction and upmixing of ambient surround content from 2-channel recordings has gotten very good, and that's across the horizontal plane where there are a lot more differentiated sounds to deal with, as well as being the plane in which we are able to discern directionality far more accurately than in across the height dimension.  As some point the question becomes, "what is more fruitful- recording additional ambience channels or extracting/synthesizing them?"

If the 2L outfit has the mics, the channels, the setup time, and content for which true-recorded height info may be useful beyond simply providing a more seamless diffuse reverberant playback ambience, then they might as well go ahead and run them.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2018, 04:03:28 PM »
BTW, the irony of my questioning the dedication of 4 discrete channels to vertical ambience is not lost on me!  After all, any number of tapers have either looked at me in bewildered disbelief or simply shook their heads as I pointed a single microphone directly rear-wards away from the stage, two more side-on, and my wide omnis towards the rear-corners of the venue.  One even became partly belligerent at one point!  It made him angry that I was doing it all wrong, pointing the mics in stupid directions that made no sense to him at all!

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2018, 05:41:36 PM »
I'd like to hear the recordings.
indeed
I suggest use of these complicated looking arrays by audiophile-quality-oriented recording labels can be interpreted as indirect proof that coincident or near-single-point microphone surround recording techniques (ambisonics, double Mid/Side, and whatever) do not work as well as dedicated spaced arrays for quality surround recording of music.  If they did no one would have to go to the trouble to rig up these kinds of jungle-gym-like spaced arrays.  Regardless of the marketing claims of the single-point multichannel microphone purveyors, those systems are really mostly about compactness, simplification and ease of use, rather than about achieving the most robust and highest quality musical results.
Here I'll temper that thought with contrast on the intended capture.  I believe that to be true with ambiently experienced music, but I find with studio recording, especially pop or rock, one gets a much more satisfactory result with the 'strong mono' of single point stereo systems.  Or a combo of closer single point stereo capture mixed with spaced ambient arrays.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #148 on: September 05, 2018, 09:45:34 AM »
I suggest use of these complicated looking arrays by audiophile-quality-oriented recording labels can be interpreted as indirect proof that coincident or near-single-point microphone surround recording techniques (ambisonics, double Mid/Side, and whatever) do not work as well as dedicated spaced arrays for quality surround recording of music.  If they did no one would have to go to the trouble to rig up these kinds of jungle-gym-like spaced arrays.  Regardless of the marketing claims of the single-point multichannel microphone purveyors, those systems are really mostly about compactness, simplification and ease of use, rather than about achieving the most robust and highest quality musical results.
Here I'll temper that thought with contrast on the intended capture.  I believe that to be true with ambiently experienced music, but I find with studio recording, especially pop or rock, one gets a much more satisfactory result with the 'strong mono' of single point stereo systems.  Or a combo of closer single point stereo capture mixed with spaced ambient arrays.

Absolutely.  I agree completely.   In my experience, a strong solid center as anchor out of which which everything sort of extends peripherally is always more convincing and more satisfying even with very ambient recorded material. That's one reason I'm a strong proponent of using a center channel in multichannel microphone arrays even when the recording is only intended for 2-channel stereo.  The two general approaches - spaced ambient arrays verses focused coincident mic'ing, needn't be exclusive of each other. We can combine the advantages of both in clever ways which support each other and avoid conflicts.

The center microphone position is an excellent place for a single-point stereo pair or ambisonic microphone.  In addition to a solidly-anchored center, that provides the option of dialing in as much level-based, coincident-type stereo as we want, with tight, phase-locked, pin-point imaging extending outwards from the center of the playback image, balancing nicely against the randomized-phase stereo ambience and wide, diffuse directionality provided by the spaced array.  And that can make for a more optimized portrayal consisting of both a big overall picture with enveloping ambience as well as a solid, tightly-focused "strong-mono" center anchoring it all.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #149 on: September 05, 2018, 10:30:20 PM »
Playing around with a Phish recording that I did this summer with my Tetramic, I decided to decode it to Blumlein and then also decode a forward-facing cardioid.  I blended the mono cardioid with the Blumlein and I have to say I like how it solidifies the center, without really needing to add much of it.  That said, I don't know that my ears are good enough to tell if I'm causing phase problems or the like.  Anyway, Blumlein with a coincident forward-facing cardioid seems like it might qualify as oddball.  Here's some quick and dirty samples to compare....

Blumlein only: https://we.tl/t-Y1Zh2cfiuC
Blumlein with the addition of the forward cardioid: https://we.tl/t-u12aG1io2p

As ever, I'm interested to hear what others have to say about these.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #150 on: September 05, 2018, 10:33:42 PM »
I've used Blumlein with a center omni for close studio work and been very happy with the addition. 

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #151 on: September 05, 2018, 11:16:42 PM »
Not exactly OMT.

But this thread may be of interest to folks here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=187767.0

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2018, 12:34:16 PM »
Playing around with a Phish recording that I did this summer with my Tetramic, I decided to decode it to Blumlein and then also decode a forward-facing cardioid.  I blended the mono cardioid with the Blumlein and I have to say I like how it solidifies the center, without really needing to add much of it.  That said, I don't know that my ears are good enough to tell if I'm causing phase problems or the like.  Anyway, Blumlein with a coincident forward-facing cardioid seems like it might qualify as oddball.  Here's some quick and dirty samples to compare....

Blumlein only: https://we.tl/t-Y1Zh2cfiuC
Blumlein with the addition of the forward cardioid: https://we.tl/t-u12aG1io2p

As ever, I'm interested to hear what others have to say about these.

I'll try and give a listen tonight.

I can see how mixing in some forward facing cardioid with the straight 90-degree angle Blumlein pair would be useful in many cases.  And it's interesting to think about what the addition of the forward-facing cardioid is doing.  In some ways it's similar to  narrowing of the angle between the 8's to something less than 90 degrees, but not exactly.  Narrowing the angle between 8's is equivalent to increasing the ratio of Mid to Side.  It is the same as adding more forward facing figure-8.. similar but not exactly the same as adding more forward facing cardioid.  But I'm getting ahead of myself, let me back up for a moment-

I found that when I was recording from out in the audience using either a pair of ADK TLs or a Peluso P-Stereo in Blumlein that I often liked tightening up the angle between the microphones from the standard 90 degrees to something a bit less.  That helped in solidifying center focus and made for a more-even power-response across the front playback stage.  Otherwise there tended to be a bit too much separation between channels with the microphones angled a full 90 degrees apart.   

When I started using the TetraMic and was able to more easily play around with incremental adjustments to both pattern and angle afterwards while seeing both a graphical and numerical indication of what those actual angles and patterns were, I gravitated towards the same preference, typically preferring an inclusive angle of somewhere between 70 to 80 degrees for a pair of crossed 8's.  However, the pattern/angle combination I most often like best is a crossed pair of super/hypercardioids, using a slightly wider angle between microphones than I'd gravitate to with 8's.  That combination seems to achieve a nice balance of Blumlein-like qualities with more forward-bias that brings the important stuff in front (band and PA) into better focus with increase clarity.

I think what the addition of the forward facing cardioid does is similarly push the virtual patterns towards super/hypercardioid rather than 8s, except narrowing the virtual angle somewhat. 

Obviously each of these variations are similar yet also vary slightly, which IMO is significant.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #153 on: September 06, 2018, 12:34:53 PM »
Lucas, If you want to mess around with this a bit more simply as a way to get a good mental handle on how all this stuff works, here is what I'd recommend-

Based on my analysis here of what your addition of the cardioid is doing, try adding some forward facing carioid to the crossed fig-8's as before, except try using an angle wider than 90 degrees between the 8's.  The addition of the forward-facing cardioid essentially narrows the virtual angle, so using more angle on the 8's to start with will help retain ambient stereo width while still getting the advantage the forward-facing sensitivity bias and center focus provided by the cardioid.  It should let you use more cardioid if desired, before things get overly narrow sounding.  How much wider is going to be subjective, it's assessing the general trend in that direction which should be most informative.

All of this is illustrative of the many balancing acts between center-focus/solidity and ambient-width/stereo-openness.  The same balancing act is "baked in" to standard stereo microphone configuration pattern/spacing/angle combinations (which to a limited extent we can tweak afterwards using Mid/Side readjustments).  With these ambisonic recordings you gain more control over finding the most appropriate balance point by ear.  The additional step of introducing a 3rd virtual microphone facing forward can potentially take that to another level..  which I don't think is happening here exactly yet unless you are applying different processing to the 3rd channel in comparison to the other two, such as EQ'ing it differently.  Rather, I think the addition of the forward facing cardioid (or omni or whatever) can be fully explained in terms of Mid/Side and the resulting change of virtual patterns.

Ambisonics is essentially advanced Mid/Side. The addition of a forward facing cardioid (or omni as EmRR mentioned for close studio work) coincident with the Blumlein pair is really no different than changing the virtual pattern/angle.  Assuming the level of both are identical, mixing an omni with the 8's turns the Blumlein pair into a virtual pair of 90 degree X/Y cardioids.  If somewhat less omni is used, that becomes equivalent to a pair of supers or hypers with the same 90 degree inclusive angle.

Mixing in forward-facing cardioid instead of an omni does essentially the same, except it also narrows the virtual angle somewhat, due to the presence of the forward facing bi-directional component of the cardioid in addition to its omni component.

The suggestion of making the angle between crossed 8's wider before adding the forward-facing cardioid, serves to at least retain the 90 degree angle between the resulting super/hyper-ish virtual pair, if not increase it somewhat.  The only real difference between doing this and dialing in a wider angled pair of super/hypers to begin with is the process one goes through in arriving at the end result.  Don't disregard the difference in process even if you can end up achieving the same end result either way.  Different working processes definitely affect our preference as we work toward and settle upon what sounds best.

What would leverage this to the next level and move it beyond an alternate way of making the same Ambisonic Mid/Side readjustment would be EQing the forward-facing cardioid differently from the fig-8 pair prior to mixing them.  Say you EQ the cardioid to achieve best clarity and presence of the direct sound from the PA and stage, while EQing the crossed 8 pair for best ambient correctness.  In addition, to get things correct in an overall global EQ sense,  you'd can compensate for whatever specific EQ works best on the cardioid in your EQing setting for the 8s.  As an example, if you start from an overall well-balanced point of reference with regards to frequency, and then boost midrange/treble in the cardioid for improved clarity and articulation of the sound from the stage and PA, you might want to boost the bass of the 8's even if they didn't need that on their own, in order to compensate "globally" for a better frequency-balance of the overall combination of the forward-direct and diffuse-ambient portions.

That's still essentially making Mid/Side type manipulations, but more advanced ones which equalize the sound arriving from the foreword quadrant differently than than arriving from all other directions.   One of the cool things about single-point in space Ambisonics is that it is all level/polarity based. That means we can potentially split things up into as many virtual microphones as we want and recombine them without phase interaction problems.  One just has to be careful that the processing done to each part does not introduce significant phase differences, so this sort of thing is probably a good place for linear-phase EQ's.  Of course coincidence and lack of time-difference is also ambisonic's biggest constraint, and why spaced arrays which do introduce phase differences become advantageous.


Brief ambisonic aside- Excepting the EQ part, all this is getting close to the first-order Ambisonic control oddity of the "zoom" function, but not quite.  I don't understand the zoom function well, but in my limited understanding, it essentially modifies the W component by shifting it from omni towards a more forward-directional pattern prior to doing the Ambisonic matrixing that derives the virtual mic-patterns.  Don't sweat it if you don't follow that.  It's pretty much above my head too, and I'm likely grossly oversimplifying it.  It's a fun control to mess around with within a rather limited range though.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:55:35 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #154 on: September 06, 2018, 12:35:30 PM »
Following up on the above two posts-
Lucas was kind enough to provide the raw A-format TetraMic files of one of these Phish shows to me a few weeks ago (not sure if it was the one he posted links to above or not) for me to assess for him and mess around with a bit.  It's been a while since I used my TetraMic, which is due for a recalibration, and it was fun to dive back into messing around with the virtual microphone settings, homing in on a few good 2-channel decode options.  Below is a portion of my PM to him talking about that, which I'll copy here because it's relevant to this discussion of the most appropriate angle between microphones based on the pickup pattern.  I posted essentially this same information way back when I was first messing with the TetraMic, and it was good to confirm again that it still holds true for me now. 

Essentially, the trend outlined below represents one of the most useful things I found using TetraMic, which has informed my general thinking on coincident 2-channel stereo ever since-

-------------------------------------
For good sounding material, I typically end up somewhere around this trend line of settings:
pattern = 2.0 (fig-8s) / width = 70-80 degrees
pattern = 1.8-9 (hypercardioid) / width = 90ish
pattern = 1.7 / width = 105-115ish
pattern = 1.6 (supercardioid) / width = 120ish
...etc..
pattern = 1.0 (cardioid) / width = 130-140ish
pattern = 0.5-0.8 (subcardioid) / width = 140-150ish

Often several different settings along that trend line work well and it comes down to choosing which is most prefered.

Of course that's just a very generic trend.  I may end up with something significantly different, especially if the recording environment is less than ideal, or the recording is otherwise wonky.
-------------------------------------

^
I'd love to be able to combine several of those options, each targeting a different frequency range.  For example one could have very wide angled subcards for the lowest frequencies and narrower angled more directional patterns higher in frequency.  This would essentially be like the Schoeps Polar Flex system extended to Ambisonic stereo.  It's possible to do so via a lot of manipulation and recombination in a editor, but far more work than I want to do.  What would be great is if that functionality was included in the B-format to virtual-microphone decoding application, where it would be simple and easy to apply with visual confirmation.

[Edit- Another more-basic function which would be very useful in VVM or any ambisonic virtual-microphone decoding application is a single control which would allow one to sweep between the various pattern/angle settings I've listed above, without having to rapidly readjust both pattern and angle separately each time.  One could then simply manipulate that single parameter while listening even with one's eyes closed, and really get a good feel for the incremental variations between them without having to do so in a much slower, clumsier, iterative way.]
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 03:01:44 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #155 on: September 06, 2018, 12:36:40 PM »
Not exactly OMT.

But this thread may be of interest to folks here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=187767.0

Thanks Noah!  I grabbed your files yesterday but haven't had time to listen yet.  Looking forward to doing so.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #156 on: September 06, 2018, 12:46:07 PM »
Lucas, If you want to mess around with this a bit more simply as a way to get a good mental handle on how all this stuff works, here is what I'd recommend-

Based on the analysis above, try adding some forward facing carioid to the crossed fig-8's as before, except try an angle wider than 90 degrees between the 8's. 

This hadn't really occurred to me but I'll definitely play around with it.  Thanks!

Quote
I think what the addition of the forward facing cardioid does is similarly push the virtual patterns towards super/hypercardioid rather than 8s, except narrowing the virtual angle somewhat. 

(Here's where I'll probably mess up the technical side of things...)  Does adding the forward-facing card impact the rear lobes of the Blumlein pair, though?  I definitely see how it impacts the pattern in the front, but aren't the full figure 8 rear lobes still picking up as much as the unaltered Blumlein pair?

Quote
Lucas was kind enough to provide the raw A-format TetraMic files of one of these Phish shows to me a few weeks ago (not sure if it was the one he posted links to above or not) for me to assess for him and mess around with a bit.

The samples above are from the same venue, but a different night (IIRC from what I previously sent you).

Also, if anyone is at all interested in messing with this stuff, the VVMic program is free to download and I'd be happy to share any of my raw A format files.  You could then try all of this out yourself.
Mics: Core Sound TetraMic | AT4031s | AT AE5100s | AT853s (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3s | DPA 4061s | CA-14 omnis | Studio Projects CS5
Pre: CA9200
Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05 | Tascam DR-2d

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #157 on: September 06, 2018, 01:18:40 PM »
Does adding the forward-facing card impact the rear lobes of the Blumlein pair, though?  I definitely see how it impacts the pattern in the front, but aren't the full figure 8 rear lobes still picking up as much as the unaltered Blumlein pair?

Increasing sensitivity to the front is essentially the same as decreasing it to the rear in an overall sense.

Consider the cardioid in terms of its basic polar components- an equal sum of a forward-facing figure-8 and an omni.  In that case the figure-8 and omni components combine to produce twice the sensitivity of either alone in the forward direction, the same sensitivity as the omni alone 90-degrees off to either  side, and destructively interfere to create reduced rear sensitivity culminating in a central rear-facing null (or near null).

The same essentially applies to adding the forward facing cardioid to the Blumlein pair.  The main difference is that we're now thinking in terms of combined stereo pattern sensitivity, rather than a single channel polar pattern.

In that overall combined-pattern sense, a Blumlein pair on its own has equal sensitivity in all horizontal directions, making it omnidirectional in terms of stereo sensitivity.

Adding forward cardioid to that shifts the sensitivity bias forward, so the overall combined stereo sensitivity pattern is more subcardioid-like in shape.  Similarly if you overlay a crossed pair of hypercardioids and trace the combined outline of them (ignoring polarity) the overall combined stereo pattern sensitivity is likewise subcardioid shaped.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #158 on: September 06, 2018, 01:22:39 PM »
Also, if anyone is at all interested in messing with this stuff, the VVMic program is free to download and I'd be happy to share any of my raw A format files.  You could then try all of this out yourself.

I encourage anyone interested to take him up on this offer!  It's very enlightening to play around with.  I've been meaning for years to make some of my raw TetraMic files available here but for numerous reasons have never gotten around to doing so.  And I'm happy to discuss the particulars with anyone who does.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #159 on: September 19, 2018, 09:24:16 AM »
Copying a couple posts from another TS thread to here, because I feel they do a good job of conveying the philosophy driving the development of OMT and what it is designed to achieve-

Hi. A couple of thoughts:

- If you're coming from a background of recording with spaced omni microphones, I think you'll find that recording with two coincident or closely-spaced supercardioids gives a fundamentally different overall impression. It's not just a variation by degree from what you're used to. The listener's brain goes into a different mode of listening, because the sense of space and the ability to localize direct sound sources are so different between the two kinds of recording. They're both called "stereo" but they're so different in their effect that I sometimes think there should be different terms for the two approaches. (A/B vs. X/Y comes close; "intensity" vs. "arrival time" differences are involved, but those are ugly terms and anyway, those two principles of operation aren't mutually exclusive in most cases.)

With spaced omnis, if the live environment in which you made your recording was rich and spacious, a similar feeling can be manifest when your recording is played back. It's like bringing that _environment_ into the room where the playback occurs; you may feel as if you are wrapped or "enveloped" by that environment, even with only two channels and two loudspeakers. This encourages a mode of listening in which sensuousness and the color of sound are the main offerings. It invites you to turn off certain critical tendencies, and just take a bath in the sound. If the material being recorded is highly complex, it will be blended and softened and the edges rounded off by this type of recording. That can make it more palatable and atmospheric--sometimes primitive and mystical, even--at the cost of some clarity and specificity. That's where judgment and experience come in, since you may not always want that particular tradeoff.

With directional microphones, particularly coincident supercardioids or crossed figure-8s, you can get a very clear "stereo image"--a representation of the direct sound sources that's consistent over space and time, and that involves your knowing (on some level in your brain) where the direct sound sources were relative to the microphones. This offers much better support if you're consciously trying to grasp the specifics of the content that's being delivered. But esthetically it is a very different type of experience. The emphasis is more on the direct sound sources and where they are and what they're doing; the "atmosphere" is reproduced more quantitatively than qualitatively. Its tradeoff is that it puts more of a cognitive burden on the listener, but with a greater payoff in specific information if the listener chooses to engage that way. But it's not usually as intuitively persuasive as a good spaced-omni recording.

There are crossover and compromise approaches. I like certain aspects of both typological extremes, so I'm very drawn to those crossover approaches in many recording situations. Those include the use of "subcardioid" microphones (in the Schoeps line, that would be the MK 21 and MK 22--the so-called "wide cardioid" and "open cardioid" patterns respectively) with an approach to angling and spacing that's derived from ORTF stereo recording.

- "Reach" is a problematic concept, especially where stereo recording is concerned. A fact of physics that surprises a lot of people is that the highest directivity you can get from a "first-order" microphone (with a single capsule and no special signal processing) only gets you a 2:1 "distance factor" relative to an omni. In other words, if you find that the optimal balance of direct to reverberant sound is obtained when an omni mike is 3 feet from something, then a hypercardioid would give you that same quantitative balance of direct and reverberant sound at 6 feet. No first-order microphone pattern can ever give you that same "3-foot balance" at any greater distance; no microphone can "zoom in on" a more distant sound source and make it seem that close.

For a number of technical reasons, a pair of good supercardioids may well be your best choice when you are forced to record in stereo from all the way into the reverberant sound field. Certainly NOT shotgun microphones, which have highly irregular off-axis response at high frequencies, and no better than supercardioid directivity at low and mid frequencies (i.e. they're useful only when they're close enough to the sound source to pick up enough direct sound on axis so that you don't care about the residue of off-axis sound). But even good supercardioids can't compensate for excessive recording distance. Directional microphones are, if anything, more sensitive to their exact placement than omnis are.

- All that said, there's an interesting variant on omnis that can produce surprisingly good results sometimes, and that is to embed the membranes of each microphone in the surface of a sphere (see attached photo). I wonder whether you've tried this technique with your omnis. (Add-on sphere accessories are available for various microphone diameters.) It's another one of those adaptations or compromises that I spoke of, but this one completely preserves the spaciousness and "envelopment" aspects of spaced-omni recording, while increasing the clarity and directness of the direct sound sources.

Just as food for thought.

--best regards

P.S.: The attached photo shows a Schoeps omni capsule mounted on a Colette active cable and surrounded by a sphere accessory. But such spheres can also slide over the capsule when the capsule is mounted directly on the microphone body (amplifier). The important thing is for the surface of the sphere to be "flush with" the front edge of the capsule. -- This technique works only for omni (pressure) transducers. It would block the rear sound inlet of a pressure-gradient (directional) capsule and mess up both its polar response and its frequency response.

P.P.S: I meant to point out--when you're looking in Williams' charts or on Sengpiel's site or on http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/, be aware that supercardioid and hypercardioid have dictionary definitions which any given microphone probably won't fit exactly. The Schoeps MK 41 isn't exactly a supercardioid; it's like 2/3 supercardioid and 1/3 hypercardioid. Neumann calls their small hybrid a hypercardioid, but it's also in between hyper- and super- (with a slightly different recipe from Schoeps). Similarly, Sennheiser calls theirs a supercardioid, but it has about the same pattern as Neumann's hypercardioid, etc., etc.

What I mostly wish to contribute to the thread is to echo DSatz's comments on the fundamental difference in overall listening impression between A/B and X/Y microphone techniques - an excellent observation, well stated.  I especially perked up at the mention of "The listener's brain goes into a different mode of listening, because the sense of space and the ability to localize direct sound sources are so different between the two kinds of recording. They're both called "stereo" but they're so different in their effect that I sometimes think there should be different terms for the two approaches."

The bit below may seem OT at first, but I'll explain further down why I think it applies.

I consider near-spaced microphone techniques commonly used around here as attempts at finding optimized middle-ground solutions which effectively bridge the gap between these two very different modes of recording and listening, without moving beyond the constraint of two microphones and two recorded channels.  This can work very well for live music, where we can achieve a respectable balance between immersive ambience, good clarity and sharp imaging using well considered arrangements of two microphones.  Yet I'm rarely completely satisfied with the results given the necessary compromises.  Once I became aware of how well each aspect can be addressed on their own, albeit at the detriment of the other, those compromise solutions all to often no longer satisfy either listening mode for me sufficiently.  Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but the general trend holds.

I want to try and better optimize for both modes of listening at the same time, so I break the listening experience down further and essentially use separate pairs of microphones optimized to more ideally capture these different aspects, then combine them afterwards.  I feel this results in a better overall result than trying to find a good "middle of the road" optimization using a single pair of microphones.  The trick is that this must be done in such a way that the separate pairs support rather than fight each other, and the devil is most definitely in the details with respect to achieving that.  It's easy to make a mess of it and just complicate things without really improving the end result.  Still, I commonly argue for this somewhat unusual approach here at TS.  That's partly because I feel audience-perspective music recording is a unique recording endeavor compared to other forms of recording- For one thing, audience perspective recording is typically done from a considerable distance from the source.  It represents a very ambient recording situation regardless of whether we like that or not. In addition, we have far less control over the situation and the techniques I'm suggesting provide some additional control and flexibility;  And lastly because I find the presentation more convincing for both "modes of listening" - I can mentally switch back and forth and get a better feel for both than I can with straight 2-channel near-spaced microphone techniques. 

I see these things as possibly being applicable to your nature and ambience recordings as well.

Consider what you are recording and what you want to convey to the listener.  Then consider recording approaches which are optimized for what you want to convey.  If it's relaying a feeling being there in that place with a convincing immersive ambience, a spaced A/B technique with open pattern mics such as omnis is hard to beat.  If its a clear and precise focus on a particular sound within a particular soundscape, a single microphone or a coincident (X/Y, Mid/Side) technique using highly directional mics like the Schoeps MK41's can achieve that.  If you want both at the same time, you may be able to find a "middle ground" near-spaced approach which works for both aspects without compromising either too much. Or you can optimize separately for each aspect, and make a composite recording which better portrays both of them.  All depends on what you want to achieve, and how much effort you want to put into it.

For what you are doing the composite approach would probably mean setting up a spaced A/B omni recording to capture the ambience, and focusing a single MK41 directly on the subject of interest from a not overly distant location.  If the direct sound from subject of interest has stereo qualities to it which you'd like to convey in addition to the atmospheric stereo ambience from the A/B pair, you might consider using both MK41 in a narrow X/Y configuration (or better, a Mid/Side setup using one MK41 plus a figure-8 such as the MK8). Narrow so that neither mic of the pair is very far off-axis from a direct line to the source (which is why a Mid/Side setup works well for this - the Mid microphone is always pointed directly at your source), thus retaining good direct focus on the subject while still getting sufficient direct imaging type stereo-ness. And also narrow because the A/B omni pair will be contributing plenty of the other kind of stereo-ness, meaning less stereo-ness is required from the "direct sound" focused pair for a good overall listening impression.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #160 on: September 23, 2018, 07:52:16 PM »
ok Gut etc

thinking of my new 426 as center front and rear (can be run 180)

so what are your thoughts with front rear card or whatever with flanking mics ?

Was wondering if say front and rear cards with say either 414 omni or ck22 omni in either A/B or perhaps Healy ? Constrained to the circumfrence of a human head or maybe 12" split ? (can be adjusted 12" increments up to 4 ft)

Omni----c4+26-----Omni ??

oh and this is 4ft split AKG ck22 with the 426 run hypers at like 65deg

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=187967.0

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2018, 10:19:18 AM »
Looks like a cool venue.. As Sam would say- "You look marvelous, dahling".

With any L/C/R microphone setup, I like spacing the L/R pair twice as far or more than I might without using center mic, as long as that's practical.  I'd probably shoot for 2' minimum or as wide as you dare.  If you can't space them as widely as you like for whatever reason, you might try the 414's in subcard instead of omni, pointed out to the sides.  A relatively wide spacing is what produces that nice open and spacious decorrelated ambience, and helps keep the audience sound from competing as much with music in the center of the image.

Using a single forward-facing center channel rather than a stereo-pair (like your 65 degree X/Y hyper pair), I might not go quite as wide as I otherwise would, because the single microphone in the center is more of a point source and I don't want that to come across as a separate "island of sound" in the middle.  A stereo pair in the center sort of helps feather the center in with the omnis, smoothly blending the imaging across the front.

With regards to using the 426 angled 180 degrees apart and facing front/rear- I've never clearly determined the importance of center front/rear microphone spacing, except that I don't want too much (don't want the rear facing mic so far back that there is an obvious delay) and that front/back spacing it is less important than left/right spacing.  I think it might work well dialing in a forward facing supercard and a rear facing cardioid.  That way you get maximum focus on the direct sound in the front facing channel and maximum exclusion of the direct sound from the rear facing channel.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 10:59:23 AM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #162 on: September 24, 2018, 10:58:56 AM »
Using a single forward-facing center channel rather than a stereo-pair (like your 65 degree X/Y hyper pair), I might not go quite as wide as I otherwise would, because the single microphone in the center is more of a point source and I don't want that to come across as a separate "island of sound" in the middle.  A stereo pair in the center sort of helps feather the center in with the omnis, smoothly blending the imaging across the front.

Expanding a bit on that-
With the mics you now have, I encourage you to try a setup close to what I'm doing.  I really like what it does. This would be six channels total into the DR-680:

Space the ck22 omnis as wide as you can get them, put the 426 in the center facing front/rear, and place your 414's about halfway out between the center and omnis (say at least 12" but less than 24" out from center) as supercardioids facing directly to the sides.

This will give you a different type of directional stereo across the center- not a coincident center L/R pair, but a near-spaced L/C/R stereo triplet.  You'll retain the center forward focus and get some near-spaced goodness. 

When mixing it, try this-
First bring up the 414's in isolation and balance them against each other to center their stereo image. Then mute them.

Next bring up the omnis in isolation and balance them against each other.  Leave them up and bring up the center channel until you get a good balance between the omnis and center mic.

At that point slowly bring up the Left/Right facing supercardioids.  This feels sort of like dialing in more Side to a Mid/Side pair to widen the stereo image, but without loosing center detail and focus.  Sometimes it's seems  like a sort of acoustic zoom control, bringing presence, excitement and "up-frontness".

Then bring up the rear-facing mic to taste.


After you get that sounding good, start over and try the mix a different way-
Get a good balance of the center + sideways supercards first, then bring up the omnis, and finally the rear facing channel. 

The first approach treats the omnis + front-facing center microphone as the primary L/C/R part, sweetening that with the addition of the sideways-facing supercards. The second approach starts with the near-spaced directional triplet as primary L/C/R, and sweetens that with the addition of the omnis and rear facing channel.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #163 on: October 07, 2018, 11:40:24 AM »
so friday night for Warren, Porter, Medeski and RUsso

we had intended to run 4ft split but as we were setting up they gave the 7ft height limit. So figuring that the spit would be an issue at that height we opted for

12" split ck22 Healy > V2
8" forward / rear ck61s
center c426 hyper (again :) ) pointed at the stacks. so fairly wide probably like 100

I mixed it with the ck22 down slightly (signal was hottest), bumped the c426 slightly. left the center forward ck61 alone and dropped the rear 10db. Was gonna ditch the rear in the mix but figured i would leave it in even if just barely noticable

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=601986

I think it sounds better over cans vs speakers but probably due to the proximity of the omnis
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #164 on: October 08, 2018, 05:06:11 PM »
Kindms, thanks to you and Rocksuit for your recording. I am listening it via speakers now. It has something that it makes me feel like I am right there. It sounded very pleasant because this.

I also tried to mix near spaced omnis (because it was stealth) with a center microphone. I was afraid of the comb filter. In the end, I mixed very little of center mic. I'm not sensitive for comb filtering, so I was rather careful. Still, the small addition of the center has improved the recording.

I was playing with my old oddball recording. Here is my little observation. Gutbucket advised us to try more methods to mix rear channel. One was just to mix it in. Another was to stereoise the rear channel by M/S with forward mic. Or we can stereoise the rear channel by some other artificial effect (eg.reverberation). I was trying M/S and it was not working well in my recording. It sounded somehow sharp, unpleasant. I remembered that Gutbucket also mentioned that we can try to make artificial stereo of rear channel by plugin for phase shift. I found this plugin. This plugin shifts phase of all frequencies by constant angle. The rear channel is mixed in M/S by phase shift of +-180°  180° . But we can set lower shift by this plugin.
http://www.pcjv.de/vst-plugins/betabugs-plugins/

I think I used +-55°. It sounded better than M/S. It was not so aggressive. I mixed the rear mic into the right channel with positive phase shift and into the left channel with the opposite phase shift. There are two variables for setting - level of rear channel and phase shift. I set up the level as in the previous methods. Phase shift, I set first +-180 ° 180 ° as in M/S, and then I was lowering it than it sounded pleasantly.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 06:33:47 PM by kuba e »

Offline kindms

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #165 on: October 08, 2018, 06:58:00 PM »
Kindms, thanks to you and Rocksuit for your recording. I am listening it via speakers now. It has something that it makes me feel like I am right there. It sounded very pleasant because this.

I also tried to mix near spaced omnis (because it was stealth) with a center microphone. I was afraid of the comb filter. In the end, I mixed very little of center mic. I'm not sensitive for comb filtering, so I was rather careful. Still, the small addition of the center has improved the recording.

I was playing with my old oddball recording. Here is my little observation. Gutbucket advised us to try more methods to mix rear channel. One was just to mix it in. Another was to stereoise the rear channel by M/S with forward mic. Or we can stereoise the rear channel by some other artificial effect (eg.reverberation). I was trying M/S and it was not working well in my recording. It sounded somehow sharp, unpleasant. I remembered that Gutbucket also mentioned that we can try to make artificial stereo of rear channel by plugin for phase shift. I found this plugin. This plugin shifts phase of all frequencies by constant angle. The rear channel is mixed in M/S by phase shift of +-180° . But we can set lower shift by this plugin.
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/phasebug_by_betabugsaudio

I think I used +-55°. It sounded better than M/S. It was not so aggressive. I mixed the rear mic into the right channel with positive phase shift and into the left channel with the opposite phase shift. There are two variables for setting - level of rear channel and phase shift. I set up the level as in the previous methods. Phase shift, I set first +-180 ° as in M/S, and then I was lowering it than it sounded pleasantly.

Interesting. And Im glad you dig the recording. I think the proximity of the omnis makes the recording sort of "shine" in headphone playback. We kind of envisioned the human head when setting up the array if you can call it that.  So Omnis as the ears c426 as the eyes, the ck61s as the 3rd eye

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #166 on: October 08, 2018, 08:06:10 PM »
^ Talk about oddball  ;)
Mics: Avantone CK-1s, CA-14 omnis
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Recorders: DR-60d mkII, DR-22wl, DR-07

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #167 on: October 09, 2018, 06:49:20 AM »
^ Talk about oddball  ;)

Great, this picture should be the title page of Gutbucket's oddball pdf.

I think the proximity of the omnis makes the recording sort of "shine" in headphone playback. We kind of envisioned the human head when setting up the array if you can call it that.  So Omnis as the ears c426 as the eyes, the ck61s as the 3rd eye

Yes, it sounds great in headphones.

I downloaded for comparison second recording of the same show made by Michael - pair of Schoeps, supercardiod . It is excellent recording. It has very nice stereo separation and everything is sounding clear and upfront. But for some unknown reason the omt recording sounds little more pleasant to me. Maybe it is because openness or just different sound color (eq).
http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=601963

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #168 on: October 09, 2018, 10:54:16 AM »
We kind of envisioned the human head when setting up the array if you can call it that.  So Omnis as the ears c426 as the eyes, the ck61s as the 3rd eye

Love it!

I was playing with my old oddball recording. Here is my little observation. Gutbucket advised us to try more methods to mix rear channel. One was just to mix it in. Another was to stereoise the rear channel by M/S with forward mic. Or we can stereoise the rear channel by some other artificial effect (eg.reverberation). I was trying M/S and it was not working well in my recording. It sounded somehow sharp, unpleasant. I remembered that Gutbucket also mentioned that we can try to make artificial stereo of rear channel by plugin for phase shift. I found this plugin. This plugin shifts phase of all frequencies by constant angle. The rear channel is mixed in M/S by phase shift of +-180° . But we can set lower shift by this plugin.
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/phasebug_by_betabugsaudio

I think I used +-55°. It sounded better than M/S. It was not so aggressive. I mixed the rear mic into the right channel with positive phase shift and into the left channel with the opposite phase shift. There are two variables for setting - level of rear channel and phase shift. I set up the level as in the previous methods. Phase shift, I set first +-180 ° as in M/S, and then I was lowering it than it sounded pleasantly.
^
Great that you've tried this!  Thanks for your report.  This is one of the things I've wanted to explore for years- constant-angle opposite phase-shifts routed Left and Right (guessing a shift of somewhere between 40° and 90° will be most appropriate).  I'll have to check out that kvraudio plugin.  Most of the others I came across did other stuff than simply shifting phase by a constant amount across all frequencies- and those intended as "pseudo-strereoizing" mono-to-stereo plugins are mostly crap.  The one I do know can do the constant phase shifting without other unwanted tricks is Voxengo PHA-979.

A few reasons this approach is conceptually attractive for me-
It doesn't change the timbre of the rear-facing channel content.  The solo'd rear facing channel(s) sound the same before and after this phase-shifting treatment.  It only changes the how the separate channels interact with each other. 

When summed to mono, all opposite polarity content cancels out.  So with a standard Mid/Side 180° phase shift of the Side channel (in this case Rear channel), the Side/Rear content goes away entirely and only the Mid + omni sum content remains.  But with less than a 180° shift, only some of that content is cancelled, so by gaining control over the degree of phase shift, we gain control over how much rear-ambience remains in the mono sum.. which is also how much rear-ambience is present across the center portion of the 2-channel stereo image.  In other words, we gain control over rear ambient stereo width without effectively reducing the center channel level at the same time.

This is the primary principle upon which old-school matrix surround is based.  Content with a total phase shift of 180 degrees between Left and Right channels is routed to the back center.  Content with no phase-shift is routed to the front center.  Content with a phase shift somewhere between those two extremes is steered somewhere between front and rear with the degree of phase shift determining how far front/rear and the polarity of the shift determining if that is sent towards the Left or Right sides.  So in addition to making better sounding 2-channel stereo output, this is also effectively modifying the defacto matrix surround encode created by your mix.  Anyone playing your 2-channel stereo file back through a surround matrix decoder will hear the rear ambience spread around the back between the Left/Right and surround channels.

A +/-90° Left/Right phase shift = 180° total (rear ambience routed to the back in surround, to the far sides in stereo, and cancels out entirely in mono).
A +/-45° Left/Right phase shift = 90° total (rear ambience routed to the sides in surround, halfway between the far sides in stereo (less out-of phase stereoness), and is reduced by 6dB in the mono sum rather than canceling out entirely).
No Left/Right phase shift = 0° total (rear ambience routed to center in surround, to the middle of the image in stereo (Mid), and is not reduced in level at all in the mono sum.

Your +/-55° Left/Right phase shift = 110° total, which likely represents the most appropriate mid-way point between +/-90° and +/-45° for that particular recording.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #169 on: October 09, 2018, 11:21:20 AM »
I'm also interested in other ways of decorrelating the Left/Right routing of the single rear-facing ambience channel which may be more effective than phase-rotation.  In my discussions with wforwumbo (who just completed a doctorate in acoustics), IIRC he suggests trying a plate-style reverb with zero (would that work?, maybe an especially short) reverb time.  Not sure of the specific settings, but the intent is not adding 'verb which extends the time envelope of the sound, even if very short, but rather sufficiently "different-izes" the Left/Right feeds from the single channel without adding any specific sound character other than increased spatialization.  Perhaps he'll chime in here.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #170 on: October 10, 2018, 06:30:25 PM »
When summed to mono, all opposite polarity content cancels out.  So with a standard Mid/Side 180° phase shift of the Side channel (in this case Rear channel), the Side/Rear content goes away entirely and only the Mid + omni sum content remains.  But with less than a 180° shift, only some of that content is cancelled, so by gaining control over the degree of phase shift, we gain control over how much rear-ambience remains in the mono sum.. which is also how much rear-ambience is present across the center portion of the 2-channel stereo image.  In other words, we gain control over rear ambient stereo width without effectively reducing the center channel level at the same time.

Thanks for this explanation. It's good to look at this issue from perspective of mono and stereo. I like the idea of mixing Mid/Rear. It is bringing something special to the recording. When I mix the rear channel just as mono, the effect is less significant. I recorded only couple of recordings by omt. Maybe it's just a coincidence and the next recordings will sound better with mono rear channel. I am curious how would compare the Mid/Rear and a pair of rear mics in XY. Also, I am curious about wforwumbo reverb effect too. Thanks for the basic surround matrix theory too.

I update the link for phase plugin. I don't know if the plugin is high quality. But I tested it on the sum of mono. It is working very well. When decreasing the phase, the mono signal increases. And all is canceled for 180°. I do not have a good listening skills. Maybe it is creating some unwanted artifact. But it should be negligible for our rear mic.
http://www.pcjv.de/vst-plugins/betabugs-plugins/
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 06:36:47 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #171 on: October 11, 2018, 12:44:26 PM »
Yeah I really dig the rear-facing channel.  I've said it here many times, but almost every time I'm tempted to leave it out, I find that things are just not quite as good without it.  I keep meaning to experiment more with an additional rear-facing channel, but I value what the addition of other microphone channels do more, so tricks such as we are discussing which "de-monoize" a single rear-facing channel will remain attractive unless I move to recording more than 6 channels. 

"De-monoizing" the rear ambient material, either by manipulating the single recorded channel or by recording more than one rear channel seems to help with a couple things- It keeps that material from imaging strongly in the middle and thus directly competing with the forward-facing channel intended to monopolize the monophonic center-portion of the image; and it conveys that material in a more more diffuse, wide and enveloping way, which is appropriate as it ideally consists of all reverb, reflections, and audience reaction, with as little direct sound leakage from the front in it as possible..

I am curious how would compare the Mid/Rear and a pair of rear mics in XY.

Stick with me here and I'll get to that..
TLDR- Other than one test mentioned below, I've yet to move beyond a single rear-facing channel mainly because any additional recording channels have proven more valuable to me when pointed elsewhere, at least when recording up to 6 channels total. 

IME, the primary requirement of the rear-facing channel is minimizing pickup of direct sound arriving from the front.  Next is appropriate time-alignment, such that the direct sound from the front which "leaks in" to that channel will not be smear the imaging provided by the the primary microphones when everything is mixed together.  That happens automatically if all the microphones are on the same stand and the rear-facing microphones aren't distant from the others.  It doesn't have to be perfectly aligned though, as it does for a typical matrix of multiple forward-facing mics- and I suspect a few milliseconds (corresponding to a foot or two between the front/rear pair) is helpful for differentiating the front from back, "keeping the front sound in front" via that slight time of arrival difference.

^That's most definitely the case for discrete surround playback where the rear channel is routed to speakers behind the listening position.  In that case the front-bleed into the rear channel, combined with insufficient front/back spacing perceptually pulls too much of the front direct sound into the rear surround speakers.   A little spacing provides time-of-arrival cues which helps keep the direct sound from the front sounding like its coming from the front, such that more rear facing channel ambience can be used before the front imaging shifts rearwards.  And for quieter sections where the front sound isn't considerably louder than the sound from the rear, it also helps keep the "rear sound in back", and better differentiated from the front. 

However, I'm not as certain about the front/back microphone spacing when mixing to 2-channel L/R stereo.  I know that the spacing I am using works nicely in my 2-channel mix, so I stick with it because it works well for both surround and stereo, but I'm not certain if less spacing might be better or not for 2-channel stereo alone.  It could be that having only level differences between the front/rear channels and no time of arrival differences will make for cleaner, less smeared front imaging.  It's probably a trade off depending on how much front/back level isolation can actually be achieved, because in a practical sense, the greater the front/back level difference there is, the less time-of-arrival difference should be required.  Varying the front/rear microphone spacing is something I encourage those of you trying these OMT setups to experiment with, including trying a coincident front/rear arrangement.  If you do so, please let me know.  From a practical point of view, reduced front/rear spacing will make for a more compact and potentially less visually intrusive setup.


After minimizing pickup of direct sound arriving from the front and achieving appropriate time-alignment, the third most important thing is the "de-mono-ization" of the rear-ambient pickup we've been talking about.  I'd probably not choose a rear-facing X/Y pair for "de-mono-izing" the rear ambience because X/Y with cardioids is center mono-heavy unless you use a very wide inclusive angle, and then you are going to get lots of front leakage into the sides of the cardioids.  X/Y supercards would be better, angled such that their shared null-axis points directly forward, but if using a pair of cardioids or supercards, I'd rather just space them out on the same bar which is supporting the omnis and point them directly rearward or maybe with a slight outward angle, keeping their minimum sensitivity axis facing towards the front.

I make a practical exception for a Mid/Side rear-facing pair (by the addition of a coincident Side fig-8 to the rear-facing cardioid/supercard), partly because it means the simple addition of the figure-8 to the already existing rear-facing microphone without otherwise changing it.  If the rear-microphone is a cardioid, the pattern nulls of both the cardioid and the 8 face directly forward and regardless of the Mid/Side output ratio all virtual output pair combinations will likewise feature a forward facing null, helping to limit pickup of direct sound from the front.  This is essentially the same as rear-facing X/Y supercards/hypercards angled such that their shared null angle faces forward.

^ I made some test recordings at Wanee year before last to experiment with front and rear facing Mid/Side pairs, but have yet to do anything with the rear facing pair.  In that case I placed Naiant X-8S fig-8's coincident with my standard front-facing supercardioid and rear-facing supercardioid, in order to turn them into front and rear facing Mid/Side pairs.  I recorded the rear-facing pair to the stereo channel of the DR-680 through a V3 feeding the digital input of the DR-680 so as to be able to record all 8 channels time-aligned on the same machine, and only messed around with comparison between the split omnis + a coincident Mid/Side stereo center, versus split omnis + a near-spaced 3-channel L/C/R center setup, as well as various combinations of the two.  I did so via a 2-channel mix directly out of the recorder using its Mid/Side playback function option.  The conclusion was that either center setup works well in 2-channel mix, they sound different from each other, both represent a significant improvement over a single center channel, and both together in a 2-channel mix is not necessary.  Also that the 3-channel near-spaced L/C/R center setup is superior for playback over 3 front speakers, which is not surprising.

In doing that comparison, I was struck by the absence of the rear-facing ambience channel, since in the direct-off-the-DR-680 monitor mix the stereo channel cannot be played back simultaneously along with the other 6 channels. I missed it!  And I've yet to get around to playing around with all 8 channels in the DAW including the rear-facing Mid/Side pair.

Quote
I update the link for phase plugin. I don't know if the plugin is high quality. But I tested it on the sum of mono. It is working very well. When decreasing the phase, the mono signal increases. And all is canceled for 180°.

Good test, which seems to confirm it is working correctly.

wfowumbo reminds me that this kind of equal phase rotation by frequency manipulation is called a Hilbert filter.
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Offline Moke

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #172 on: October 13, 2018, 04:21:36 PM »
OK,... Impr0v Oddball,...
Acoustic music, string quartet, w/ amplified vocal.  6' out from stage.
Binaural + Line Audio CM3 as 0º forward and 180º rearward.  The 0º forward mic is synched with the binaural. The ambient 180º mic is slightly rearward of the main three.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #173 on: October 14, 2018, 06:11:13 AM »
Mike, you have started to use rear mics too! I am looking forward to hear from you how the rear channel complements Gude's head. Is it an improvement or is the rear channel negligible? I am curious too what you will say about using the rear mic for acoustic music. I don't tape a lot now. But if I have chance I always use OMT with rear channel for audience recording. Big thanks to Gutbucket.

Mike's setup brought me a question. Have somebody tried rear channel for onstage or stage lip? It can revive the recording, bring more audiences. But does it have any plus for music?

Gutbucket, thanks for your great explanation. I'm already infected like Moke, Kindms, Rocksuit, Heathen ... I'm thinking that I will try 6 channels next occasion.

Varying the front/rear microphone spacing is something I encourage those of you trying these OMT setups to experiment with, including trying a coincident front/rear arrangement.  If you do so, please let me know.  From a practical point of view, reduced front/rear spacing will make for a more compact and potentially less visually intrusive setup.[/i]

How we can setup coincidence arrangement? It is easy with vertical capsules. But the mic's bodies should influence sound for horizontal capsules.

wfowumbo reminds me that this kind of equal phase rotation by frequency manipulation is called a Hilbert filter.

I google it. Some very complicated math behind this (probably behind most of plugins we are using). Kudos to programmers.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 06:17:13 AM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #174 on: October 14, 2018, 10:20:01 AM »
In a quick throwdown mix, I like it.
The 0º CM3 brought the vocal amplifier from its natural 1 o'clock position in the sound field, and, dragged it to the center at 12.  That was actually kind of a nice bend.  The binaural stereo aspect remained strong in headphone listening; rightfully. I've only listened to a few songs, and via headphones. But I have had a chance to compare binaural and bino-mix that way.  The binaural stereo is a bit softer presentation; the Mix is more dynamic, especially in vocal presentation.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #175 on: October 15, 2018, 09:20:11 AM »
Cool setup Mike.  Thanks for sharing it here.  Let me know what you think about the rear facing channel in that setup.  Its usefulness may depend on how ambient the binaural recording is to begin with.  Try it simply panned center, and you might alternatively try it as Side channel matrixed with the Front as Mid.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #176 on: October 15, 2018, 09:42:07 AM »
I am curious too what you will say about using the rear mic for acoustic music.

Have somebody tried rear channel for onstage or stage lip?

How we can setup coincidence arrangement? It is easy with vertical capsules. But the mic's bodies should influence sound for horizontal capsules.

Works great for acoustic music.  I pretty much always use the rear facing channel(s) when recording both onstage and out in the audience.  At the lip I take advantage of the stage edge itself as an acoustic barrier, mounting either a directional pair below the lip facing out into the room, or a wide spaced pair of omnis boundary-mounted onto the front edge of the stage facing out into the room.  That way the stage edge helps limit how much direct sound radiating from the stage sources reaches those microphones, yet the direct sound which does refract around the edge and leak in remains closely enough time-aligned that smear or echo isn't a problem.

To make the front/rear facing mics coincident just mount them side by side or one over the other, such that the capsules are aligned with each other in the fore/aft plane.  I posted photos of the side by side arrangement in the previous OMT thread.  In that case the microphones were not coincident, but tight enough to be able to fit under a single umbrella.  I'd shift them further forward/backward in the mounts to increase the spacing as long as the weather was good.

Here are a couple of those photos again-



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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #177 on: October 15, 2018, 09:47:30 AM »
there are two Axis-Reference stereo bars on this page.
First time ever for two in the same thread/page?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #178 on: October 15, 2018, 10:00:10 AM »
Axis-reference, nice. Is that what you call your DIY mic-bars with the angle markings?

For those following, Moke made the bar supporting the microphones in the photos I just posted above, which features easy to read 90-degree inclusive markings at each mount point.  I've gotten a lot of good use out of that bar.  Thanks Mike!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #179 on: October 15, 2018, 10:27:04 AM »
I've built three or four of them.  SCB has one I made for DPA4028 pair.  Yours. and the one I'm presently using. 
I threw the one I'm using together on a rush, and then never followed up with the white markings. Its all scribed in, just not painted lines.
makes note to self,....
If Scott posts his in this thread, world balance might just change.

regarding the rear mic, and the binaural rig.
Yeah, probably not a necessary addition.  It did add something to the sound, didn't seem to detract, so I left it. 
The library did all of these upgrades to the room over the summer, since the last time we were in there. but, they still have an HVAC whoosh going on.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #180 on: October 15, 2018, 10:46:12 AM »
Fun times!

I've had a Roland R-88 on loan from Spyder9's for the past couple months, and finally employed all 8 channels this past Saturday recording Ween at the Fillmore in Miami Beach.  It's a quite nice recorder, although almost comically large in comparison to the more contemporary compact Zoom F8.

I used the extra two channels to record a second rear-facing channel and a fig-8 Side channel coincident with the front-facing center.  I've been wanting to record a stereo pair of rear-facing channels for a long time, and the 8 inputs of the R-88 make doing that easy without needing to use the V3 to get more than 6 channels into the DR-680.  It also makes it possible to play back a stereo mix of all 8 channels directly from the recorder, including Mid/Side matrixing of the center pair.

If I move to recording 8 channels regularly, I think this arrangement is most likely to end up as my standard 8 ch OMT setup.  The other 8 ch option I'd like to try is placing front/back-facing figure-8's coincident with the wide-spaced omnis, allowing me to dial in front/back facing wide pairs of any pattern, but I can't currently support the weight of the 8's and their cables at the ends of the telescopic antennas.

Total channel count was as follows:
ch 1/2 = 4061 omnis in APE spheres (widely spaced, facing the rear corners of room)
ch 3 = 4098 supercard- 0º forward-facing center (Mid); ch 4 = Naiant X-8S fig-8- 90º sideway-facing (Side)
ch 5/6 = 4098 supercard Left/Right forward-facing pair- angled ~ +/-35º towards outside edge of stage/PA (forming near-spaced L/C/R triplet with center mic)
ch 7/8 = 4098 supercard Left/Right rear facing pair (angled/spaced such that their null angles more or less face directly forward, and such that the 5 supercard array has appropriate angle/spacing relationships all the way around.

A couple photos-
The 5 microphones in the center are the DPA 4098 supercards.  The center is in the big Shure windscreen along with a Naiant X-8S fig-8 forming the Mid/Side pair.  Zac, the other taper from California, was running Octava cardioids>FRLE2 and doing the entire tour.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 11:41:38 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #181 on: October 15, 2018, 11:18:59 AM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #182 on: October 15, 2018, 11:49:06 AM »
While I'm at it, below are a couple shots from my initial trial run of the R-88.  Same recording setup and same guitar player as above (Randy Bernsen) in a trio format with a couple different outstanding local musicians.  This was an anniversary party for the bar/brewery, at which I had not planned to record, but had the rig in the car just in case.  Sure enough, as expected the scene was not conducive to recording with no good place to make the effort to place the rig..  Yet upon walking around the back of the pop-up canopy forming the stage, I found the sound was not too bad behind the acoustically transparent backdrop immediately behind the drummer.  So I set up the rig back there simply to do a trial run.  Worked out better than expected, if nothing spectacular with the guitar and bass amps facing forward and the drummer's body occluding portions of the kit.  As you can tell from the photos, I actually shifted the rig off center towards the  bass-player's side in order to get a clearer path to the snare-drum around the drummer's back.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jcable77

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #183 on: October 15, 2018, 08:31:18 PM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.
Nice GB. What was the lineup for this? Doesnt look like Scott Kinsey on keys but I cant tell? Love that stuff. Any chance of hearing it?
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #184 on: October 15, 2018, 10:34:20 PM »
I always like seeing these rigs, food for thought.....

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #185 on: October 16, 2018, 07:43:03 AM »
In a quick throwdown mix, I like it.
The 0º CM3 brought the vocal amplifier from its natural 1 o'clock position in the sound field, and, dragged it to the center at 12.  That was actually kind of a nice bend.  The binaural stereo aspect remained strong in headphone listening; rightfully. I've only listened to a few songs, and via headphones. But I have had a chance to compare binaural and bino-mix that way.  The binaural stereo is a bit softer presentation; the Mix is more dynamic, especially in vocal presentation.

Mike, it is good that bino-mix is sounding well. It is difficult for me to compare different variation and decide which is better. But I noticed that the more time I spent by listening and remixing the decision is easier. By the way you made nice stereo bar. I have one very similar but without angle lines. I will paint them too.

Gutbucket, many thanks for your posts and detailed explanation with photos. I appreciate it. It is great new that I can try omt for stage-lip and onstage. I like these setups a lot. The rig for Ween in FOB looks impressive.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.

The bass player of Weather Report Miroslav Vitous is living in my town. Unfortunately I can only use stealth setup at his little common gigs. By the way, I remember that you mentioned about basic omt for stealth setup for fun. I like this idea. I tried it once with two omnis and forward and rear cards. I put a lot of cables and I did not feel comfortable. But it was fun in the end.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #186 on: October 16, 2018, 10:23:05 AM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.
Nice GB. What was the lineup for this? Doesnt look like Scott Kinsey on keys but I cant tell? Love that stuff. Any chance of hearing it?

Johnathan Joseph- drums
Randy Bernsen- guitar/midi-guitar
Jose Gola- bass
Abel Pabon- keys

They are playing gigs as WeatherUnderground

The above date was essentially a warm up down gig here prior to hitting the Iridium in NYC the following weekend. I need to mix it properly and hand it off to Joseph and Bernsen first, but I don't foresee any reason I shouldn't be able to share it.  Hang tight and I'll get to it.  It's the recording I've been most excited about recently and well worth the wait IMHO. I did make a slap-dash real-time stereo mix (R88>R44) the following day using headphones just to have something to listen to more easily, and because I might let the R-88 go. Also recorded a portion of their pre-show run-through as well (although cut short to save on limited card space), and it's real treat to hear everything snap into place as they work through a few of the more complex sections.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #187 on: October 16, 2018, 10:57:40 AM »
The rig for Ween in FOB looks impressive.

The photo from below up toward the ceiling made me laugh out loud when going through them the next day.  Looks like some psychedelic taloned Ween bird Ween character / Klingon bird-of-prey swooping in to snatch a baby bunny or something.  Fortunately setup wasn't nearly as visually domineering viewed from audience level where the center array mics are all in the same plane.. except for the overall width at 6'.

Quote
The bass player of Weather Report Miroslav Vitous is living in my town.

Jose Gola is from Cuba (plays frequency with Gonzalo Rubalcaba).  He's an amazing player with monster tone.  The wide omnis really helped to capture his sound with an uncommon immensity, depth and envelopment.  Big shoes to fill as Jaco Pastorius was a South Florida native and he and Randy Bernsen grew up together here in Ft Lauderdale.

Let's keep the stealth discussions in PMs, thanks! Glad to hear you're enjoying this stuff and it's working well for you.  A critical aspect for sure is making these setups as easily manageable as possible/practical.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #188 on: October 16, 2018, 11:40:00 AM »
Did some photo analysis to better determine the approximate microphone spacings and angles I used at the Ween show.  Mostly documented this for my own records so I can remember what I did moving forward.  Anyway, I submit the following for consideration in the "more information than anyone here is likely to want" category-
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jcable77

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #189 on: October 16, 2018, 07:46:27 PM »
A few photos of the 6ch OMT rig about a month ago at a gig in a cool basement club, effectively "on-stage".  This was a tight spot for it, and I pretty much wedged it in next to the keyboard player.  This is my standard 6ch OMT setup featuring a single rear-channel, with big Shure windscreens on all 4 of the supercards.  This was also recorded into the R-88, serving as my first real test of that recorder.

Fantastic band featuring a couple local Joe Zawinul Syndicate members, doing Weather Report material.
Nice GB. What was the lineup for this? Doesnt look like Scott Kinsey on keys but I cant tell? Love that stuff. Any chance of hearing it?

Johnathan Joseph- drums
Randy Bernsen- guitar/midi-guitar
Jose Gola- bass
Abel Pabon- keys

They are playing gigs as WeatherUnderground

The above date was essentially a warm up down gig here prior to hitting the Iridium in NYC the following weekend. I need to mix it properly and hand it off to Joseph and Bernsen first, but I don't foresee any reason I shouldn't be able to share it.  Hang tight and I'll get to it.  It's the recording I've been most excited about recently and well worth the wait IMHO. I did make a slap-dash real-time stereo mix (R88>R44) the following day using headphones just to have something to listen to more easily, and because I might let the R-88 go. Also recorded a portion of their pre-show run-through as well (although cut short to save on limited card space), and it's real treat to hear everything snap into place as they work through a few of the more complex sections.
Thank GB. Psyched to hear it!!!!
Telefunken m60’s tk60’s,61’s,62’s Teac me-120’s(c,o)
AKG 480’s ck61’s>akg active naiant pfa’s>
V-3,Sound Devices 302,Mini-Me’s
Mixpre 6, pmd661
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #190 on: October 17, 2018, 08:52:07 AM »
A few photos

I love that last photo ("listen and silent are spelled with the same letters")!  I wish more venues had that sort of thing, especially for quieter music, such as jazz or bluegrass...

 

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