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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 2723 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« on: January 06, 2018, 03:37:13 PM »
Continuation from the original thread here- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg1279052#msg1279052

DANG! OMT with the sideways supercards angled forward +/-45 degrees most certainly works in a small club (a good sounding one at least) as long as you can manage to shoe-horn it in there and keep everyone happy.  So good in fact I plan to play with angling those sideways facing supers forward outdoors to see if it works equally well everywhere.  I'll definitely be revising the OMT suggestion for small rooms (crappy ones remain to be tested, but I'm not overly motivated to explore that front). Listening today to last night's recording directly off the DR-680 via headphones using the 680's internal monitoring mixer I prefer not doing the Mid/Side mixing thing with the rear facing channel when the spaced +/-45 degree supercards are also in use, but rather just bringing it channel up with the appropriate level, panned to center.  Played back in surround with all six channels feeding their own speakers (no mixing, just mult'ing the single rear-facing microphone  channel to two back speakers, omnis routed to the side surrounds and sub) the way it handles audience chatter and room sound is really impressive.  All that is there, more of it in fact compared to the 2ch stereo mix, but the separation of it from the main stuff in front actually improves clarity of the vocalist and on-stage stuff and makes it easier to hear around the elements which would otherwise be distracting and cluttering.  I'll certainly be exploring this angle more.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:00:07 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 05:45:03 PM »
bump to join thread. Kung Fu 2017-12-16 OMT up now:
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2017-12-16.24akgck22ck61
to compare, here is kindms AKGck1x (cardiods) PAS recording:
https://archive.org/details/kungfu2017-12-16.akgck1x

snap is close up of both rigs
rig1] (AKG c460b|ck22 omni's spread 108 cm + AKG ck3 fwd and ck61ULS rear|naiant actives (black windscreens).
rig2] AKG ck1x on AKG collette (middle pair of large Shure AW81S)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 07:35:22 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2018, 07:19:38 PM »
I provided an audio patch out to the music club's regular video taper this past weekend while trying out 6ch OMT in a small club.  Below are links to a couple YouTube clips he's posted which will give some idea of baseline performance in this kind of situation.

Caveats!-  Audio here is a raw 6ch>2ch monitor mix made on-the-fly out of the DR-680.  No listening was done, much less proper balancing, EQ or any other post production.  Balance, mix levels and panning of the 6 OMT microphone channels were simply a best guess.  Deep omni bass content overloads the input of the small video recorder at times.  Subjected to video recorder's file compression and of course YouTube data compression, yada, yada & hand-waving.. At least it's something to give you all a taste of what OMT can do in a small club.  Unfortunately the video taper didn't run for Mingo Fishtrap which was the best sounding set of the weekend after Bettye LaVette, and of an entirely different genre (full NOLA-ish band with funky organ & horn section).  Recording location was from the same column the video cam is mounted to. It's hard to tell from the video, but that's basically the far left side of the room, in-line with the left PA, about 15' away from the stage.

Bettye Lavette (Elenor Rigby > Love Rein O'ver Me) - https://youtu.be/N1oq2ZqfKt8

Tim Palmieri solo happy-hour-
(You Enjoy Myself ~ Linus & Lucy ~ Blackbird ~ Wish You Were Here ~ YEM ~ Golden Slumbers ~ Carry That Weight ~ YEM ~ Wipe Out ~ Louie Louie ~ Blister In The Sun)- https://youtu.be/D-ALOX7_13c
(Hits From The Bong)- https://youtu.be/Xgvdbzn3cB8
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2018, 02:44:27 PM »
Thanks a lot for sending your recordings. Rocksuitcase, it is great to have your OMT and Kindms's single pair for comparison. Overall I prefer the OMT version, there is great sense of space. And I like the warm sound on Kindms recording. But maybe that is possible to tune it on OMT by an equalizer.

Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2018, 03:22:56 PM »
Thanks a lot for sending your recordings. Rocksuitcase, it is great to have your OMT and Kindms's single pair for comparison. Overall I prefer the OMT version, there is great sense of space. And I like the warm sound on Kindms recording. But maybe that is possible to tune it on OMT by an equalizer.

Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?
The kicker about the comparison is the room itself is typically difficult to get good vocals on an AUD recording. Toad's place is basically a rectangular width room with the stage in the middle against one long wall with the soundbooth, hence mic stand location being about 40 feet from the stacks, again centered in the rectangle. When I would run with Blues Traveler's permission, I would run up in the crows nest, which is where Matt set up his official streaming/recording cameras along with the SBD feed into them. So, to read that the OMT has "great sense of space" makes me truly smile as this is the characteristic most missing from other recordings in there. Also, when you like the warmth of the ck1x recording, that tells me those mics worked well with his SD pre-amp.  I agree with your assessment as well, the OMT is more "realistic" while the ck1x has nice warmth if maybe a bit  boomy in the low frequencies.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2018, 04:49:01 PM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 04:50:37 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 05:12:31 PM »
kuba- Yes, you can easily adjust the overall tonal balance via EQ, but that's not the only way.  You can also do so via the level balance between the omnis and the center mics.  So for instance, with a quick and dirty mix straight out of the DR-680 recorder using it's built-in monitor mixer that provides no EQ ability, I can dial up the omnis a bit more and the center mic(s) down a bit to tilt the tonal balance towards more bass and less treble, or vice versa.  Of course it helps if I'm actually listening while making those decisions. It happened to work out pretty well in the Youtube samples above just by knowing what monitor mix balances I've used in the past, even though I wasn't actually listening when I dialing it in for that patch-out.

This is where the flexibility in mixing OMT begins to come into play - and what really makes it advantageous in shaping whatever you come home with into something which works optimally for the listener.

Using EQ you can adjust overall tonal balance in a few ways- EQing each element separately before combining the channels and/or EQ'ing the resulting 2 channel mix after combining things.  So for example you can EQ the omnis primarily for what they are contributing to the bottom end, while EQ'ing the center mic or pair more for what they are doing in the midrange and top end.  And after combining the channels you can EQ the full 2-channel mix.  Typically I do both, but with different things in mind..

Actually, I sort of consider three separate corrective 'steps' or stages in putting together the finished product, and EQ is an important element in each of those steps, second in importance only to general signal integrity and level.  Looks like it's time to start outlining my process for mixing OMT.  I'll offer you a basic outline of what I do before blathering more philosophy about mixing and this approach in particular.

Basic OMT mixing in 3-steps-

1) First I'll do base-line corrective stuff to each channel.  Mentally asking myself things like- "Does this single channel have any problems?"; "Do the two omni channels sound similar in tonal balance and have a good level balance between them?" If not I'll compare just those channels and adjust one or the other as necessary to get them both sounding about the same.  That imbalance could due to some particularity about where I was setup in the venue, the PA, my recording trims being off, a misbehaving microphone or whatever.  In any case, I make sure each channel is okay on its own and more or less matches its pair in tonality if it has one.  Then I'll make sure they work together well as a pair, balancing the level between the two so that the stereo image is centered when listing just to that pair on it's own.  When I'm done with this step I have a good-sounding, well-balanced omni pair (channels 1 & 2), a good-sounding center channel (ch 3), a good sounding rear-facing channel (ch 4), and a good sounding pair of Left/Right supercardioid pair (ch's 5 & 6).  If using a center forward-facing coincident-pair instead of front/rear-facing mics, channels 2 & 3 are treated as a pair instead of independent channels.  Lock the individual channels of each of these pairs together so that you can adjust the level of the pair as a whole without upsetting its balance in the next step where you'll be balancing each pair against the other.

2) Then I'll do the mixing/combining part- setting up the mix balance between these elements.  This is where it gets fun and is probably the most subjective part of putting everything together. 

I usually start with the omni pair and build from that.  We already have it sounding good on its own so just pull up the level on that pair.  Hard-pan those omnis hard-Left and hard-Right.  Don't worry about any "hole in the middle" of the stereo image at this point if there is one (probably not unless they were quite widely spaced).  Next bring up your single center channel panned to center.  You've already gotten that sounding decent tonally, so just listen to what it does as you raise the it's level and it combines with the omnis.  Play around with it.  I find there are often three ways to work it, it depends on the recording and type of music, and there is no wrong answer- either the center level is about the same as the omnis acting as an "equal player", the center is lower in level and basically "fixes whatever is lacking with the omnis", or the center level is higher than the omnis and sort of dominates the mix.  I'll come back to this later as there are many different things going with this center/sides balance thing besides getting a solid stereo image, and the best choice will be one which finds an optimal balance between all those things.  For now, just listen for a solid soundstage between Left to Right which a reinforces the center content nicely, such that everything sounds balanced and you really miss it when you mute the center channel.  Don't worry about tonal concerns, how well you can understand the vocals, how distant it sounds or things like that at this point.

If you've recorded a center coincident-pair instead of a single center channel, pan both channels of the pair panned to center.  That effectively makes it a single monophonic center channel.  Balance it's level with the omnis as described above first, then play with panning the center Left and Right channels outwards by the same amount (symmetrically).  Try it fully hard-panned to either side as well as in all positions in-between.  The nice thing about having a coincident center pair is that you can pan this pair however you want without creating phase-conflicts.   Listen for a good, even image-blend between the center and sides.  You might like it best with no center spread at all (both mics of the center pair panned center), with fully hard-panned to either side, or somewhere inbetween.  Again there is no rule here other than getting it sounding good.  In general you are likely to end up with a center pair panned less widely than you normally would without the omnis in the mix.  Sometimes I'll pan them just a minimal bit to either side, but that slight panning makes a big difference in getting a smooth blend across the full soundstage and keeping the center from sounding separate and overly point-like.  If you mute the omni channels you might be surprised to find how narrow your choice sounds on its own.  That's an indication of how mic configurations need to change when used in combination with one another (taken care of by the OMT mic setup) and is helpful to hear to understand how each of the parts combine to make a sum greater than the parts.

Take your time here, work up a few different balances between center/sides (and center spread if you have a pair there) and listen to them for a while to see which one works best and sticks with you.  Often it may become apparent that what was sounding really good at first doesn't hold up under longer listening or only works for that particular section or song.  Try to find whatever balance works well for the entire concert and holds your interest without anything about it bothering you after a listening for a while.

If you have a rear-facing microphone, bring that up last panned to center.  The optimal level on the rear-facing channel will vary a lot depending on the situation, the room, the audience, etc.  You'll probably want to use more of it when listening to the sections between songs and during quieter numbers when the audience is quiet, and less of that during louder numbers, or when the audience is talking back there.

3) Once you have a mix you like, you can fine-tune the 2-channel mix bus or the resulting two channel mix output if you choose to edit that separately.  We are now to the point were we do the same things we would to any normal two-channel recording- EQ the whole thing (more subtle overall-tonal tweaks at this point), normalize, track, fade, whatever.


To me it helps to think of those 3 steps as follows:

The first step mostly about "fixing problems" and getting to a good level playing field starting point.
The second step is the "creative mixing" part where most of the gross (and subtle) decisions which have the greatest creative input on the the result are made.
The final step is the "mastering" part.  Putting the final polish on the thing and otherwise prep'ing it for release.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:29:35 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 05:22:03 PM »
Later I'll describe more subtle things you can do which really make this technique powerful, like EQ'ing the center channel differently to reduce conflict with the sides or to enhance vocal clarity and presence without the entire recording becoming too bright, and other stuff like that which comes after step 2 but before step 3 in the basic outline above.   Similarly, there are advanced EQ decisions you can make to the other channels- the omnis, the rear-facing channel, etc, which work in combination to create a greater sum than each of the parts in isolation.  As you move toward these more advance steps you'll begin to push the channels away from their "everything sounds as good as it can on its own" starting point of step 1, in a way somewhat analogous to ending up with a more narrow center X/Y pan in step 2 than you otherwise would for that pair on its own.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 05:52:04 PM »
I love to read it. This is huge help. I will try to write more in the morning.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 06:04:30 PM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.

Also consider that while it's useful to compare the overall sound of both in deciding if this is worthwhile or not, its very difficult to make specific comparisons of tonality or whatever because as explained above, Rocksuitcase's mix is his subjective choice, not only because he's applying EQ, but because of his choices of level balance, and OMT is always going to be more subjective in this way because we have to make these decisions in creating any 2-channel stereo mix from it.

I also noted more low frequency energy "warmth" in kindms' ck1x cardioid pair recording.  I personally don't find it too much or boomy but like that tonal balance.  Tonally, I prefer it's low-frequency balance to the OMT mix, at least on the gear I'm listening through, even though it lacks other traits I like in the OMT recording such as the sense of openness and spatial dimension.  Rock, please don't take this the wrong way, but I generally find your mixes a bit light on the bottom up through the lower midrange to my ear.  I haven't mentioned that previously because its a subtle subjective thing, but it's been stirring around in my head for a while and I think this is a good comparison to explore that a bit more.

The big OMT post production variables - subjective mix choices and what our monitoring is revealing (or not)-

Again these are subjective choices we make in putting the resulting recording together, but those choices are entirely dependent on what our monitoring is telling us.  It's not just really easy to correct for some minor (or major) imbalance in our playback monitoring when making decisions about what to do with the mix, we will in fact always do that unless we've specifically learned how to compensate for the deficiencies of our monitoring.  That's tough, because then the goal is to intentionally make it "not sound as good as it can" on our monitoring system but adhere what we have learned it needs to sound like there to sound correct everywhere else (on balance).  This is the well known mix-translation problem, and it is actually aggravated by this super flexible system of OMT mixing where we gain more control over everything.  It's one of the big reason's I've not released more stuff before now because I've long recognized my monitoring is the weakest link in my own recording-mixing-monitoring chain.  I know what to do but I don't trust my monitoring enough.  Okay so I'm a bit too much of a perfectionist there with respect to being a "taper", but that's partly because I know that once it's out there I'll never really have a second chance for a re-do.  That said, I'm getting closer to setting up a monitoring system I feel like I can trust, and the biggest issues there are getting the bottom and lower-midrange right.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:12:21 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 06:15:43 PM »
Gutbucket, you have my big respect for a 6ch on-the-fly mix. It is a very pleasant listening. I'm surprised that it sounds so spatially even when you were close to the left PA. How much did you space supercards?

Thanks.  I'll get mixed versions up at some point.  I can make a few of my raw recorded OMT files available to anyone here to play with as well.  It would be fun to see how different each person's resulting mix ends up.  I also hope to up-load some auditory examples of building a mix step by step.

I'll remeasure my rig to confirm but the general spacing was about 5' total on the omnis and about half that on the L/R supercardioids angled 45 degrees forward.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 06:50:47 PM »
Took a few photos with my phone last weekend trying to show the OMT setup in that room.  Tough to make out against the black ceiling in a dark room, but here are a few snaps.  These four show sort of an overview of the room and the relationship between the recording position, PA and stage.

First is the view of Tim Palmieri on stage as seen from the recording position (no rig in frame).

Second is the view from side-stage/bar-entrance (rig is at the column, stand placed on a table around the column, stand running up the front column edge closest to center stage, mics up high).

Third is the view from the back half of the room not quite all the way to the rear wall.  Video guy jumped up on on a chair all excited about the Phish tunes. (Mic-stand and 3 of the 4 supercards can be seen, left supercard obscured by column, both omnis obscured by darkness)

Fourth is from the SBD during Betty LaVette (you can see the outward extension of the right omni past the right supercardioid in this one - flush-mounted into the black ball at the end of the antenna).

« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:15:31 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 07:06:25 PM »
Here are some crappy closeups of the OMT array-

First two are of the array during setup.  Stand hasn't been raised yet above the video cam which made the YouTube clips posted above, omnis are still retracted (you can see that the omnis retract in to the same position as the Left/Right supercards, except the Left ommi's telescopic arm now retracts only part-way due to a splint repairing a break)

Third shows the array from below.  The rear facing mic is up against the column.  You can see the angle of the right supercard and the position-relationship between the the supers in frame (front and rear-facing supers have an bigger windscreens than the Right supercard).

Blurry forth shows the array as seen from a perspective closer to the center of the room, raised fully above the video camera.

The miniature DPA omnis are mounted in my DIY sphere accessories to make them somewhat directional (and eliminate potential eye-pokes).  Here I pointed them +/- 45 degrees to the front.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:35:29 PM by Gutbucket »
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2018, 08:02:50 AM »
Oddball microphone technique is a beautiful thing. The following may be useful for those who are beginners like me. I started with two microphones. It took me a long time to understand the relationship between distance, angles, polar patterns (The stereophonic zoom - Michael Williams). I only made audience recordings this time. Then I tried onstage recordings with two or even four microphones or sbd feed. Here I needed to get a little more of theory (sound frequency, comb filtering, basics of sound propagation) And I also needed to use a little bit of post processing e.g. little eq or little shift of the stereo image.  And from there, it is already close to the OMT.

I am from Europe and hobby taping is not popular here. I got all the information from this forum. Great thanks to everyone from forum.

But why am I writing it? I was surprised by one thing. I'm music lover but I am a very simple, low-cost listener, I have no sound education and I'm working outside the music industry. But I noticed that the more I record, the more aspects I can distinguish in the recording. I did not expect that. I am just at the beginning because recording is only a hobby and I'm doing it for joy. But I know our brain has the ability to train listening skills and it may be unobtrusive, step by step. Things, that with I've fought in the past, are easy, fast and effortless to solve for me today. Of course, I get new obstacles that I didn't see in the past. If anyone is hobby taper like me and thinking about trying the OMT, do it. It will cost time and effort and the final recordings may not be good. But that's not important,  for sure recordings will come out better next time.

The big OMT post production variables - subjective mix choices and what our monitoring is revealing (or not)-
and also my ability, how subtle details I am able to distinguish. OMT is an ideal learning opportunity.

I can make a few of my raw recorded OMT files available to anyone here to play with as well.  It would be fun to see how different each person's resulting mix ends up.  I also hope to up-load some auditory examples of building a mix step by step.
I'm excited. It will be fun. And that would be a great help too.

Thanks for your photos. I should buy a selfphone with a camera (I'm an old school) because taking pictures of my rigs. I can see on your photo that the rear microphone could not be in the axle, but that is negligible. It reminded me my recording of Medeski and Mule. I used the rear microphone in Mid / Side. On your advice, I delayed the rear microphone before entering in the Mid / Side . The resulting sound was more pleasant to me. But as you say, these are very subtle things.

Thank you for sharing OMT with us. I see how much effort you gave in development. I appreciate Rocksuitecase help too. I found another beautiful part in taping because OMT.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 08:05:22 AM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2018, 09:06:57 AM »
Thanks for the kind words kuba. And your interest.  I too find that the deeper I get into this the more I can hear, and the more I understand the more I enjoy the music on a deeper level.  Figuring out the puzzle is a big part of the fun for me, as is sharing what I've figured out here with anyone else who may be interested.  Part of what makes this so interesting is that live-music taping, especially from the audience, is a unique form of recording which benefits from unique solutions which don't really apply to, or come directly from, more common forms of audio recording.

The journey is the destination.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2018, 09:35:54 AM »
Learning recordings reminds me yoga. Yoga says that with the rough mind we can only see rough things. With more subtle mind, we can see subtle things too. We have to know the rough mind to get to the subtle. The same thing applies to the recordings. Sometimes I wondered if the sound masters are able to listen to an amateur recordings. If they are not disturbed by all the rough things that I do not hear. It's probably the same answer as in yoga, it's not disturbing them. I am sorry for light turn.

Part of what makes this so interesting is that live-music taping, especially from the audience, is a unique form of recording which benefits from unique solutions which don't really apply to, or come directly from, more common forms of audio recording.
I totally agree. Audience recordings have special magic.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2018, 09:54:31 AM »
I think the warm difference with Kindms recording is not because preamp. OMT contains omnis, it should be more warm than Kindms's cards. Maybe It would help to highlight in eq lower frequencies of the omnis. I do not know if the word "warm" is right. Do not take me as someone who can advise. Better to wait for others.

Also consider that while it's useful to compare the overall sound of both in deciding if this is worthwhile or not, its very difficult to make specific comparisons of tonality or whatever because as explained above, Rocksuitcase's mix is his subjective choice, not only because he's applying EQ, but because of his choices of level balance, and OMT is always going to be more subjective in this way because we have to make these decisions in creating any 2-channel stereo mix from it.

I also noted more low frequency energy "warmth" in kindms' ck1x cardioid pair recording.  I personally don't find it too much or boomy but like that tonal balance.  Tonally, I prefer it's low-frequency balance to the OMT mix, at least on the gear I'm listening through, even though it lacks other traits I like in the OMT recording such as the sense of openness and spatial dimension.  Rock, please don't take this the wrong way, but I generally find your mixes a bit light on the bottom up through the lower midrange to my ear.  I haven't mentioned that previously because its a subtle subjective thing, but it's been stirring around in my head for a while and I think this is a good comparison to explore that a bit more.
Gut- no offense taken; kuba- I took another listen in my preferred "ideal" listening environment-my car-lol and definitely hear what you are saying "warmth" wise; to my ears the cymbals and high end is EX, but the low end is a bit sterile. I do wish I had some better mixing tools/software.
To the major point- ever since deploying OMT and learning to do the mixes I have had an inferior DAW listening situation in that the bass is always too boomy in my set-up. Therefore, at the beginning of seriously mixing OMT (Greyfox 2016) Gutbucket had mentioned one mix being way light in bass freq's. That event had an issue with the bass being so loud in the PA that the artists onstage as well as audience members complained so much the artists' complaints are during their set on the recordings!
I have finally obtained a nice subwoofer and feel my monitor environment is "better" for me to make mixing decisions. I will add that I typically do not finalize my mix before I take the working file into my car and listen to it all the way through. That has influenced me to make changes. What I am hearing you guys say is I am reducing the bass a bit too much in these mixes. Once mixed to two channels, I have been typically EQ'ing under 400Hz ->20Hz using graphic EQ and taking it down 4-6dB. This is further emphasized by the fact that kindms does zero EQ'ing with his two channel mixes (and I typically do very little to no EQ'ing of two channel takes).
Sooooo, in conclusion of this aspect; I hear what exactly you say regarding the Kung Fu OMT vs ck1x. Again, not going to go back and re-do it timewise, howwever, I haven't released the 16 bit yet;' maybe I will go in and do a different 2 channel EQ on it and ask what you guys hear.
As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

Great discussion so far. I just had a thought that I save my EQ curves in Audacity and could possibly take screenshots and title them properly such that it may be a part of learning/teaching/discussing mixing the OMT.
 
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2018, 12:44:14 PM »
Do not worry, it's a good recording for me and 90% of people. But I understand when something can be improved, I would have done it.

These are interesting things for me. The imperfections can be better heard when two records of the same music can be compared. But e.g. Gutbucket's sample - I can not distinguish it's imperfections, it is above my distinctive ability. So the recording is perfect from my point of view. On the other hand, Gutbucket can distinguish these details, so he has better experience of music than I do and he can enjoy it more than me. Recording is an art.

You mentioned that you were using Audacity. Can you change or turn on/off EQ during playback in Audacity? It was not possible a few years ago. If is it still then comparison and decision making is very difficult. In a lot of programs, the effects can be changed or turned on/off by one click during playback. You can hear (and repeatedly) the difference immediately, so you have easier decision making.

As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

OTM has warmth, it's enjoyable listening for me. Maybe Chris used too much bass reduction. Did Chris have a stand near you?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:57:31 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2018, 12:57:14 PM »
As a request to you both re this "to little bass-low mids" topic, would you mind listening to the Twiddle OMT and compare it to taperchris' card mix? The PA had HUGE amounts of bass, but it wa so clean, I didn't reduce as much 400 on down as I did with the Kung Fu.
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16

OTM has warmth, it's enjoyable listening for me. Maybe Chris used too much bass reduction. Did Chris have a stand near you?
Chris's stand was about 4 feet behind and 10 feet Left of mine (which was DFC front row balcony). I think the sound on this two channel master is about as excellent as I've ever heard from both my own gear/mixing AND the band's PA perspective. The bass player, Zdnek Gubb, was simply KILLING it LOUDLY; he must have gotten new gear for Christmas as he was grinning from ear to ear and kept pointing up with one finger toward his tech/monitor guy. Sooooo, the warmth is/was in the room and on the original recording. That said, I treated the original Omni vs center channels similarly as the Kung Fu EQ wise. As Gutbucket says and you confirmed, some of this is very subjective AND does point out what some tapers have told me is their reasons for wanting to stick with two channels- They can record it and process it with a lot less work than the OMT. I say OMT is worth a try in about 75% of all situations we find ourselves taping in.
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2018, 01:52:10 PM »
I understand very well the reasons for wanting to stick with two channels. Post processing is sometimes tedious for me.

I use Reaper as recommended in the forum. You can try it for free and full version is around 70 bucks. I think it is fully sufficient for OMT. The beginnings were difficult as I moved from Audacity. But now it's good. The huge advantage is that I can make any change during playback and hear it right away. The changes can be manual or preset. For example, I can set that I want to amplify the center microphone by 2db. And with one click I can turn this gain on/off during listening. I can chase any effects too, so mixing Mid / Side is then simple. If you decide to try it in the future, I like to help you with I will know.

Edit:
https://archive.org/details/twiddle2017-12-30.24akgck22ck3
https://archive.org/details/Twiddle2017-12-30.tcca.flac16
I listened to Chris's recording more. It is great recording, he captured space better than OMT. It is nice to see that you can make so good recording with Chris Church mics (ha ha I own them too).
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 03:45:10 PM by kuba e »

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 05:50:10 PM »
Gave a quick listen again to both Twiddle recordings and both sound very good and well-balanced EQ-wise to me.  The bottom sounds like it's in proper proportion to the top, at least on these AT in-ear phones I'm using from this computer.

I'm quite impressed by Chris's CA-14 Twiddle recording, especially its up-front sense of presence and directness.  The instrumentation and vocals sound not-overly-distant and big.  It's very interesting exploring what produces that listening sensation in a recording, and ways of working the balance between "solid up-front presence" and "open spatial dimensionality", but that's a discussion to explore more in-depth later.   In any case, Chris' recording made with Church-Audio cards through a Church-Audio battery box is a great example of how excellent recordings can be made using non-pedigree mics in simple setups given the right situation.  And that raises a couple important points-

Low-cost mics can make great recordings in the right situation.  Most tapers know this and many have experienced it themselves.  The flip side is consistency.  Higher quality mics are capable of making good recordings more consistently.  Similarly OMT as a technique is considerably more complex than running a straight pair of mics, but one thing which makes it valuable is that it can make good recordings more consistently.   Which is really an entirely separate argument than how good it is capable of sounding in an optimal situation.  It dramatically increases the odds of success in our favor, albeit at the cost of more complexity and post work.

The other thing is that it works nicely with lower-cost mics and actually makes pedigree mics less necessary to achieve that kind of improved consistency.  It's the "whole being greater than the sum of the parts" thing again, but on the microphone side instead of the mixing side of things this time.  Done correctly, OMT can cover some of the problems commonly heard with lower-cost mics in simple 2-mic setups in less than ideal situations.  It's one reason why I was okay with putting my Microtech Gefells away and using the miniature DPAs instead, at around half the cost or less, after testing and comparing identical OMT recordings made using both (those comparisons being vital in making such decision).  Years back in the previous thread I was using low-cost miniature AT directional mics to proof-test this.  It worked very well and is partly what convinced me to eventually settle on using the miniature DPAs exclusively even in situations in which I would ordinarily pull out the lovely MGs.  I contemplated building a "budget 6-channel OMT" setup as inexpensively as possible using all miniature Church-Audio, Naiant, AT, or other inexpensive mics at that point.  How inexpensively could I actually do it and how would the recordings compare?  It would be enlightening to compare the same recording made by such a rig and my current miniature DPA-based rig.  I may still might do that at some point, parlty to further explore the idea and partly to have a second rig.  I also think it would be a cool way to promote our TS member mic builders if it works well.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 05:56:23 PM »
Quote from: kuba e
I understand very well the reasons for wanting to stick with two channels. Post processing is sometimes tedious for me.
Quote from: Rocksuitcase
[This points] out what some tapers have told me is their reasons for wanting to stick with two channels- They can record it and process it with a lot less work than the OMT.

Truth!  If a taper is averse to having to do much to a recording afterwards other than tracking and FLACing, this path will not be the most appropriate one to take!  OMT requires a post-processing commitment- a curse and a blessing.  To my way of thinking, the need to do the post-work is perhaps the main reason NOT to pursue this for most folks.   Also- I've worked my rig to make setup super easy, but that's not going to be the case for most tapers.  Everything in my rig is already attached, plugged in and wired so I just extend the arms, point the mics, power-up and roll - and can do all that considerably faster than the time it takes most tapers to set-up a typical 2-mic rig.  But that's obviously not how most will do it.  For most tapers, a perhaps equal yet different burden will be dealing with the complexities of hauling the mics and gear, setting up prior to making the recording and breaking everything down afterwards.  Rocksuitcase, your OMT setups with kindms amaze me in that way.  I have to imagine it's a lot of work to setup and break them down.  Kudos to you guys for doing that, and also to you for bearing the mix-down burden afterwards!

Quote from: Rocksuitcase
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
Quote from: kuba e
The huge advantage is that I can make any change during playback and hear it right away. The changes can be manual or preset. For example, I can set that I want to amplify the center microphone by 2db. And with one click I can turn this gain on/off during listening. I can chase any effects too, so mixing Mid / Side is then simple.

I have a hard time imagining trying to do this without being able to immediately hear the influence of whatever change I'm making while making it, and the ability to easily go back and forth to determine if what I'm doing is moving things in the right direction or not.  That feed-back loop is so vitally important to me.  Especially when fine-tuning things.  Also, I tend to work iteratively, going back and forth constantly between listening to specific things I'm adjusting verses listening to the whole in an more overall gestalt way, then back again.  That back and forth mental-flow would be highly compromised without immediate feedback.  Big respect for successfully working that way.  I don't own Izotope but admire it, great tools.  But far more important I think is the simple ability to have that immediate listening feedback loop in play.  My humble advice is to first change your editing software K!  I suspect you'll never look back once you do and wonder why you hadn't done so earlier.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 05:59:27 PM »
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ.

Try the TDR Nova plugin.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2018, 07:04:04 PM »
Quote from: Rocksuitcase
Audacity still does not allow one to monitor in real time the EQ. What I do is load the working file into foobar, play with the EQ there, then emulate those settings with Audacity. As far as EQ and post processing goes, I REALLY need to invest in Izotope.
  Big respect for successfully working that way.  I don't own Izotope but admire it, great tools.  But far more important I think is the simple ability to have that immediate listening feedback loop in play.  My humble advice is to first change your editing software K!  I suspect you'll never look back once you do and wonder why you hadn't done so earlier.
No humbly about it. I have known I should switch ever since I started working with the DR680. I think the Izotope I need is their mastering focused one. Someone offered me a cracked version, but I feel I should pay them for their work as well as any support they offer. This gets OT for this thread, but I will bring it up and ask what folks think in the appropriate thread. Thanks to you and kuba for critically listening and offering food for my thought!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 03:02:15 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 12:05:21 PM »
The Pink Talking Fish set before Kung Fu OMT style: same rig as in the Kung Fu rig pics
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=184981.msg2252069#msg2252069
https://archive.org/details/ptf2017-12-16.24akgck22ck61

I did mix this one less and reduced a bit less under 400Hz than the Kung Fu- however, being the opening set, less audience in the room, not exact comparison.
These guys are fun!
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 07:27:38 PM »
OK,... I hope I'm not trolling in the wrong waters here,....
This morning,... Gude Head basked in the shade of the DeccaShrub.

DeccaShrub:
DPA4060 baffled omni pair, with single CM3 @ 0º apprx. *18+inches forward of vertical mic stand stanchion
*= clamp body depth, + 1ft extension rod, + 90ºangle adaptor, + mic body length,... or perhaps as much as 18" forward of mic stand. -2ft? I didn't meaure it.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 10:19:00 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 09:19:25 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My out loud response was: "That is fucking sweet!"
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 09:44:21 PM »
I ran a DeccaShrub like that as an experiment a long time ago; 2009?. I was just recently listening to the result, and, I was quite surprised.  The performance had a contrabass duet at the center of the stage, surrounded by the balance of the Octet players.  Even with two big basses passing solos back, and forth, at the center of the stage, the separation and isolation was quite apparent and shocking. You'd think that those two big boys playing hard at under 100hz would want to mono-blob to center, right?,.. especially with a center mic.  Nope, great imaging, and even cutting into the rear of the "U" between them.
So, I decided today was the day to break it out again, an try it.
I just tossed it into the digishizzer blender thingy, and, it came out sounding quite nice (except the constant SoCal friggin air condtioning systems,..AHHHHHHH!!! Fuck, I want to kill something). I ran the baffled omni pair at 3.5dB over the CM3-0º, until I found enough of the center player.
Now, for the next rounds, which will be next weekend.

Gude wore his new power cyborg eyes in front of the Consort of the first time. The tenor violinist, center most player, was cracking up the whole time; loved it!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 09:46:21 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 09:14:55 PM »
Best way to mic a goat with the winds?


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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 02:20:45 PM »
I stumbled across this on LMA and thought it qualified as an oddball setup:
Quote
2 DAK 5245 Microphones and 2 Realistic PZM Mics(Mounted on 1'x 1'x 3/8" plexiglass)... Note: This was recorded with 2 sets of mics, 4 channels, mixed down to 2 channels. The mics were mounted on a stand 8' in height.
Source: https://archive.org/details/gd1993-06-13.111953.aud.dak5245-pzm.orchardpark-ny.flac16
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 04:40:49 PM »
Mike- your Decca-shrub setup reminds me of what Jurg Jecklin was doing later on.  The main visual difference being he was embedding the center forward facing cardioid mic into a slot in the baffle so that it was more or less flush with the front edge of the disk.  Can't remember the other changes, other than also using a second disk baffle setup behind the main mic position with cardioids instead of omnis facing rear-wards.  He actually sent me a surround SACD with some recordings made with that when I'd asked a bunch of questions about his setups and ideas years ago, but I don't have a SACD player and so have only heard the standard 2-channel Jecklin disk versions which are on the red-book stereo layer of the SACD.

A somewhat similar 3-channel baffle setup I though alot about back in the day was using two identical baffles spaced apart by a foot or two, each with an omni on its outer-side like 1/2 of a typical Jecklin disk setup.  Then play with a center mic placed in the middle between the two baffles.  The center mic could be a 3rd omni or a forward-facing directional mic.  I suspect that would work nicely.  You might be able to run that for one of your recordings with that group but probably not for a recording with audience unless the entire setup was down low in front of the front row of seats or something.  It would be hard to see around with the double baffles.

heathen- Interesting find. I was intending to play around with mounting my omnis on small plexiglass boundary plates long ago, but it just wasn't practical, so I ended up mounting them in smaller spherical baffles instead.    That ended up being better anyway for other reasons.  Interesting effort on their part recording to tape in that era, even if the resulting recording is bright, "spitty" and has no real bottom end to it at all (bummer Phil).  IMHO they should have started with a pair of spaced omnis and built on that.

Mala-resistance- You don't trust natural wind and rain to 'dust' your goat?  Your boom operator is showing in frame!  Extra credit for the pastel windjammer, though.  I was pretty charged up to find a bunch of big-horn sheep along the Snake River while there for the eclipse this past summer.  Those Idaho big-horns are nealry the same color as the rocks and much harder to make out against the background compared to yours, even when relatively close as viewed from the raft, drinking at the water's edge.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 09:43:00 PM »
This is my first try at DeccaShrub, from back in 2009/2010, and the only other time that I've run it.
I'm likely going to try it again this next weekend, a couple of times.
At any rate,... the first time, back '09/'10

In the most recent effort, I was extended further forward for this reason,... I'd put a layer of heatshrink over my 1' horizontal extension, which wasn't there in 09; for vanity, because the old stuff was looking ratty, so I went over it.. That extra layer of heat shrink kept me from passing the extension through my clamp, for a tighter adjustment.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 10:00:34 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 09:24:12 PM »
OK,...
How about a theory, expressed, but, not yet attempted?
That of,... combining the attributes of a DeccaTree, with that of a Boundary Layer, and, with the thought of the boundary layer also being a rearwarly baffled micing? All from first row center.
My mind plays evil tricks on me at times, and this thought keeps coming back.
The DeccaBoundaryBaffledLayer Technique.

To the image,...
This church has a low divider wall in front of the first row seats.  The center is an aisle.
I was thinking about using this wooden wall, and its trim feature as both a boundary layer, and rearward baffling. And running a single mic, on a single stand, forward of the wall by the typical 3'.
The aisle is likely 4'+->5' wide; so somewhat close to the Decca spread. The boundary layer and baffling would make up for the width.
The single forward mic on a stand,... low profile.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:37:29 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 10:31:26 AM »
So, maybe more detail in your proposed config?
By boundary layer, are you saying you will tape a mic to the wooden wall, or put it 3 feet out on a short stand? Which ever one you plan, are you also going to use the pictured baffle with omni's in addition to this single mic, and/or adding a single mic at each side of the center aisle using the wall as the baffle? Which mic in front of the wall- your CM3's?
 
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2018, 10:38:09 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:42:00 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2018, 11:36:24 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
:hmmm:
Seems like an idea which might provide you with some nice "wide stereophonic" imaging with the outer boundary omnis. I dig the concept (and think your idea is 'sound'). Apologies for bad pun!   
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2018, 07:47:45 PM »
Ya mon, give it a go. 

I'd suggest not setting the CM3 too far forward of the boundary-mounted DPAs.  I'd probably try it with the CM3 directly in line with them unless that blocks the isle too much.  That way first arrival of direct sound from the stage in front hits all three mics simultaneously, eliminating any potential need for delays or time alignment.

I think Decca tree triangle with the center mic moved forward of the other two works because it was originally intended to be hung pretty far forward over the conductor's head, basically projecting over and into the orchestra which surrounds it on three sides.  When the group containing all sound sources of interest are predominantly forward of the recording position I think its best to keep the direct arrivals time-aligned with each other by flattening the triangle into something more like three in a line.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 01:44:58 PM »
This is another version that I did, a year ago or more. I didn't call it deccashrub for this one, but I am now.
Originally, I'd intended to do a quasi-M/S, with dipole omni and center mic. But that all became more than I was wanting to do, as my ears tend to burn out, and, i move on.
So, rather than the dipole/center quasi-M/S mix, I mixed it as what you're describing in bringing the forward mic back into time alignment (but it was already done that way in mastering).

This is that rig,..., and once again, I'm flying under another Deccatree.... and this one is even equipped with a GoPro cam up near the point mic.

AND,... there is that wall I'm turning into a baffle tonight.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:50:15 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 02:21:33 AM »
And, test firing complete.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 07:04:53 PM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2018, 05:55:47 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.

Best way to mic a goat with the winds?

108Ohm, if you have courage, you can record without extension rod too.

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2018, 08:39:17 AM »
I just posted the Marcus King Opener to Twiddle using Spread Omnis 108 cm with Hyper cards in XY 60 degrees in the middle:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185099.0
https://archive.org/details/marcusking2017-12-30.akgck22ck3/marcusking2017-12-30-24akgck22ck3t10.flac

I'm not as happy with this mix as the Twiddle, but the sound was no where near as crisp and clear as the Twiddle.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:08:49 AM by rocksuitcase »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 08:56:39 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.


Its still early on, and too soon to be too critical. But, I am very pleased with what I'm hearing.

The side baffles worked wonderfully in keeping everybody in thier place. They kept the center image more open for the center mic.  The center mic clearly displays the rear of the ensembles "U" formation, the mids. I feel this its in large part due to the side baffles.

Regarding placement on the wall,...
It is a short wall to begin with. So, it limits just what you can do as far as being too high or too low.  The floor on either side of the center aisle is ceramic tile, and highly reflective, so my thought was that being higher was going to be better than the lower area.  I decided to stay clower to the center aisle, as going wider put me closer to active players, and I didn't want to highlight anyone in this, as much as trying for the overall blending.

My thoughts are it has high potential.
If i had it to do all over again, I'd put some baffling under the piano; I'd like to have had the bass violin travel bags under the piano, for example. In one song, Bach BWV-1054 COncerto for Keyboard, the lid was opened, and that made a whole different sound in its presence.  Most of the show was played with the lid closed, which for this recording, made the piano less present.
But, the stage is small, and, they tried to bring him into the fold by pushing the piano as far into the setting as possible.  Always something.
I knew the piano was going to be bright, but, wanted to run the pattern anyway, and, just suck it up.  It turned out far better than I'd thought, with it being so close.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:58:55 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 09:10:04 AM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
I'm digging this approach Mike. glad it looks as if you are liking the results as well.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 09:29:59 AM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:31:23 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2018, 10:41:39 AM »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2018, 01:54:58 PM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
I listened to sample1 about 4 hours ago, now it seems sample 2 has been pulled. Hard to know your "bright" without a reference to your "dark" piano-wise, BUT I thin it sounds good overall tonally, separation of individual instrumentation seems right.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2018, 02:01:59 PM »
I did a different sample of the same track on sample.2, and pulled the original. That should be a good link to the new sample, though.
The first sample built too slowly for a partial sample, so I grabbed a different take.

Bright,... maybe I should have said strong presence? You will not be left for want of piano.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2018, 03:40:02 PM »
I did a different sample of the same track on sample.2, and pulled the original. That should be a good link to the new sample, though.
The first sample built too slowly for a partial sample, so I grabbed a different take.

Bright,... maybe I should have said strong presence? You will not be left for want of piano.
Yes, there IS piano!  :clapping:
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2018, 11:41:35 PM »
And thats the softer, slower, Adagio portion of the concerto.
The rehearsal of the concerto had the lid closed.  Then, surprise, surprise,.. the show had the lid open for the concerto, and closed for the balance of the show, softening it considerably.

Today,... lid open for the whole show, with the open lid facing the audience.
I bagged the first row, right side seat, and we stored all of our gear on the left first row seat, as the piano was so close to that row, anyone sitting there woud have had there face stuffed full of piano.
So, I utilized the hardwood church pews as the boundary layer, rearward baffle, and i taped the foam rem pieces to the sides of the pews as side baffling.
It record, and eft the first row seats to a really nice couple that comes to the shows (all of them), and I went and sat in the rear side.

I somehow managed to run two complete sets of blank files with Gude and the R09HR. They soundchecked out just fine; I hit record, saw levels, and time rolling on record; walked away. I get home to find two 41 minute blank stereo files that weighed in about 2gb of blankness, totally flat-lined. Gremlins.

And,... more time logged in the shade of another D'Tree.

Conclusion of test firing:
Total potential for exploration.  I would very much like to do this again without the piano.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2018, 02:26:33 PM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2018, 12:08:46 AM »
OK,... I've worked with the gal that is the furthest to the left in the image above, #4441, for a couple of years now. Her name is Sarah O'Brien.
We've gotten along wonderfully. Always a really nice smile, and kind words.
I found out friday that she was the lead cellist for Yanni for 23 years, and leader of his orchestra.
They are together in this video segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7ag2S7iLxk
I've always been amazed at her playing, but, never knew the background.
So, just today, I was asking her about that, and she said that she got her "in" with the Consort with Beth Folsom, the soprano violin player, who, was also with Yanni for a long long time.
I had no idea that I was so close to new ageyness.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2018, 03:15:09 PM »
Those samples sound quite good to me Mike.  I like the hefty sense of spatial width from the wide omnis as well as the detailed yet flattering perspective on the ensemble it provides.  Good "division of labor" amongst the three mics, avoiding phase interaction conflicts in the 2-channel mix-down.
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 04:19:01 PM »
Came across an AES paper which explores a setup quite similar to OMT in a number of ways.  I just started reading it at lunch today so I won't speculate too much or offer my opinion until I have a chance to fully digest it.  However, I wanted to share the link here as there are some obvious parallels with what I'm doing.  Generally, the idea of using spaced arrangements consisting of multiple coincident pairs to facilitate manipulation of the recording afterwards. More specifically, I immediately noticed similarities to my  idea of turning the 6-ch OMT side facing supercardioids into coincident Mid/Side arrangements as illustrated in the advanced section of the OMT booklet - modifications I want to experiment with next, using 8 channels total.  More on this later..

Technical content warning- This is AES paper type reading dealing with hall acoustics, surround recording and listening psychoacoustics.  No math, but some non-superficial technical acoustics type stuff.

It can be viewed or downloaded at the site below, which is where I found it upon browsing other papers from the University of Huddersfield Repository.  That page states:

"Download PDF:
Sorry, we are unable to provide the full text but you may find it at the following location(s):"

The links which follow are dead ends, however the full paper may be either viewed directly or downloaded as a PDF from the preview window found a bit further down around mid-page.

A New Multichannel Microphone Technique for Effective Perspective Control (by Hyunkook Lee)
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2018, 10:08:47 PM »

Two channel stereo - Baffled Boundary Layer
result:
Quote from: cello player
Mike...the recording sounds amazing!!! Thank you so so much!!! I can't thank you enough...I was supposed to be practicing other music today, but I've just been sitting and listening to the recording. The balance is fantastic and the sound quality is wonderful!!! Others have recorded us in the past, but I want you to know that your recording is the best we have ever had.

referencing the DPA4060 pair taped to the brick wall, on either side of the post, below; Baffled Boundary Layer
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 09:44:48 AM by Moke »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2018, 11:28:51 AM »
Right on. 

Liking how you used the column as a baffle between the boundary mounted 4060s taped to the wall.  That seems to me an excellent setup for that room.  If you are able to, it would be interesting to do the same using the opposing wall and center column behind the stage, high enough over the piano that you have a more-or-less direct line of sight to the strings.  You should be able to do that without much if any visual impact at all as long as you can set it up early so as to be out of the way of the performers.  That would get improved proximity to the sources and push the audience further back in the auditory perspective.  Only one way to know if that really works better or not.

Feels pretty good to get that kind of feedback from the musicians, no?
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2018, 01:19:37 PM »
Received special permission to record at Snarky Puppy's Ground Up festival last weekend, upon promising to keep the recordings private and provide them to the music label for audience-reaction and ambience in their potential live multitrack releases.  This is a fantastic musician-centric festival held in a small a park along the beach, quite intimate as it is capped at 2000 attendees per day.  Outstanding talent, heart and mindset by all involved- the musicians, the audio support crew, the festival organizers and staff and the attendees.  Got in with their recording engineer to provide him my files and hear his.  They were multitracking all performances and had up a pair of spaced omnis at the soundboards of both stages.  I moved my 6ch OMT rig back and forth between the two stages.

A few photos..  here's my setup at the smaller stage-

Last photo is the kicked-back hammock perspective of the rig and stage.  A nice spot to chill while keeping an eye on things.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:29:58 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2018, 01:27:22 PM »
A few of my setup at the main bandshell stage-

First photo is of my rig as viewed from below. Like at the other stage, the recording engineers spaced omnis are visible as well (Earthworks employed at this stage).
Second is from the recording position (Wood Brothers)
Third and fourth are is from the recording position (Snarky Puppy)
Last is the view out the window looking West from Miami Beach across Biscayne Bay towards the Miami skyline from the top floor of the hotel hosting the last-night shows.  Posting this one simply because I found it a cool photo with the reflected ballroom lights interposed against the sky.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:32:49 PM by Gutbucket »
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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2018, 01:29:18 PM »
Mike- +T great use of the wall/post. So awesome to get feedback like that!

Gut, great photos, I dig the one straight up  at the blue FL sky! (only a  bit upstate NY jealous!)
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