Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2  (Read 5374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12102
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 04:40:49 PM »
Mike- your Decca-shrub setup reminds me of what Jurg Jecklin was doing later on.  The main visual difference being he was embedding the center forward facing cardioid mic into a slot in the baffle so that it was more or less flush with the front edge of the disk.  Can't remember the other changes, other than also using a second disk baffle setup behind the main mic position with cardioids instead of omnis facing rear-wards.  He actually sent me a surround SACD with some recordings made with that when I'd asked a bunch of questions about his setups and ideas years ago, but I don't have a SACD player and so have only heard the standard 2-channel Jecklin disk versions which are on the red-book stereo layer of the SACD.

A somewhat similar 3-channel baffle setup I though alot about back in the day was using two identical baffles spaced apart by a foot or two, each with an omni on its outer-side like 1/2 of a typical Jecklin disk setup.  Then play with a center mic placed in the middle between the two baffles.  The center mic could be a 3rd omni or a forward-facing directional mic.  I suspect that would work nicely.  You might be able to run that for one of your recordings with that group but probably not for a recording with audience unless the entire setup was down low in front of the front row of seats or something.  It would be hard to see around with the double baffles.

heathen- Interesting find. I was intending to play around with mounting my omnis on small plexiglass boundary plates long ago, but it just wasn't practical, so I ended up mounting them in smaller spherical baffles instead.    That ended up being better anyway for other reasons.  Interesting effort on their part recording to tape in that era, even if the resulting recording is bright, "spitty" and has no real bottom end to it at all (bummer Phil).  IMHO they should have started with a pair of spaced omnis and built on that.

Mala-resistance- You don't trust natural wind and rain to 'dust' your goat?  Your boom operator is showing in frame!  Extra credit for the pastel windjammer, though.  I was pretty charged up to find a bunch of big-horn sheep along the Snake River while there for the eclipse this past summer.  Those Idaho big-horns are nealry the same color as the rocks and much harder to make out against the background compared to yours, even when relatively close as viewed from the raft, drinking at the water's edge.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 09:43:00 PM »
This is my first try at DeccaShrub, from back in 2009/2010, and the only other time that I've run it.
I'm likely going to try it again this next weekend, a couple of times.
At any rate,... the first time, back '09/'10

In the most recent effort, I was extended further forward for this reason,... I'd put a layer of heatshrink over my 1' horizontal extension, which wasn't there in 09; for vanity, because the old stuff was looking ratty, so I went over it.. That extra layer of heat shrink kept me from passing the extension through my clamp, for a tighter adjustment.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 10:00:34 PM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2018, 09:24:12 PM »
OK,...
How about a theory, expressed, but, not yet attempted?
That of,... combining the attributes of a DeccaTree, with that of a Boundary Layer, and, with the thought of the boundary layer also being a rearwarly baffled micing? All from first row center.
My mind plays evil tricks on me at times, and this thought keeps coming back.
The DeccaBoundaryBaffledLayer Technique.

To the image,...
This church has a low divider wall in front of the first row seats.  The center is an aisle.
I was thinking about using this wooden wall, and its trim feature as both a boundary layer, and rearward baffling. And running a single mic, on a single stand, forward of the wall by the typical 3'.
The aisle is likely 4'+->5' wide; so somewhat close to the Decca spread. The boundary layer and baffling would make up for the width.
The single forward mic on a stand,... low profile.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:37:29 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4615
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2018, 10:31:26 AM »
So, maybe more detail in your proposed config?
By boundary layer, are you saying you will tape a mic to the wooden wall, or put it 3 feet out on a short stand? Which ever one you plan, are you also going to use the pictured baffle with omni's in addition to this single mic, and/or adding a single mic at each side of the center aisle using the wall as the baffle? Which mic in front of the wall- your CM3's?
 
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2018, 10:38:09 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:42:00 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4615
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2018, 11:36:24 AM »
Yes, taping the 4060's to the walls, on either side as boundary layer, taped tight to the wall; and the CM3, forward from the wall, by 3' forward, on center.

You can see the outer banding trim of the wall, as something similar to a 1x4 band around what is a plywood wall. My thought, is that 90º mitered corner would be a nice place to tuck a boundary omni, as it would baffle the mic from the opposite side, providing isolation, and boundary layer effect.
:hmmm:
Seems like an idea which might provide you with some nice "wide stereophonic" imaging with the outer boundary omnis. I dig the concept (and think your idea is 'sound'). Apologies for bad pun!   
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (13)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 12102
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2018, 07:47:45 PM »
Ya mon, give it a go. 

I'd suggest not setting the CM3 too far forward of the boundary-mounted DPAs.  I'd probably try it with the CM3 directly in line with them unless that blocks the isle too much.  That way first arrival of direct sound from the stage in front hits all three mics simultaneously, eliminating any potential need for delays or time alignment.

I think Decca tree triangle with the center mic moved forward of the other two works because it was originally intended to be hung pretty far forward over the conductor's head, basically projecting over and into the orchestra which surrounds it on three sides.  When the group containing all sound sources of interest are predominantly forward of the recording position I think its best to keep the direct arrivals time-aligned with each other by flattening the triangle into something more like three in a line.
volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values | numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
made easy- >>Improved PAS table<< | made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2018, 01:44:58 PM »
This is another version that I did, a year ago or more. I didn't call it deccashrub for this one, but I am now.
Originally, I'd intended to do a quasi-M/S, with dipole omni and center mic. But that all became more than I was wanting to do, as my ears tend to burn out, and, i move on.
So, rather than the dipole/center quasi-M/S mix, I mixed it as what you're describing in bringing the forward mic back into time alignment (but it was already done that way in mastering).

This is that rig,..., and once again, I'm flying under another Deccatree.... and this one is even equipped with a GoPro cam up near the point mic.

AND,... there is that wall I'm turning into a baffle tonight.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:50:15 PM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 02:21:33 AM »
And, test firing complete.
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2018, 07:04:53 PM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline kuba e

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 139
  • Gender: Male
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2018, 05:55:47 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.

Best way to mic a goat with the winds?

108Ohm, if you have courage, you can record without extension rod too.

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4615
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2018, 08:39:17 AM »
I just posted the Marcus King Opener to Twiddle using Spread Omnis 108 cm with Hyper cards in XY 60 degrees in the middle:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=185099.0
https://archive.org/details/marcusking2017-12-30.akgck22ck3/marcusking2017-12-30-24akgck22ck3t10.flac

I'm not as happy with this mix as the Twiddle, but the sound was no where near as crisp and clear as the Twiddle.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 09:08:49 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2018, 08:56:39 AM »
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.
It is very interesting. Do you know how side baffles influence sound? Maybe it will be interesting to use spaced baffles for the first set and the second without.
I don't know a lot about boundary layers. It is just layman view. Is not it better to put them in the middle of the wood wall? The edge of the wall should influence the sound.

This setup reminded me what I was thinking about OMT when I tried it. Maybe better is to start with three mics. I can more concentrate how the middle mic work and train my listening skills. And then, when I get more certainty I can add fourth mic.


Its still early on, and too soon to be too critical. But, I am very pleased with what I'm hearing.

The side baffles worked wonderfully in keeping everybody in thier place. They kept the center image more open for the center mic.  The center mic clearly displays the rear of the ensembles "U" formation, the mids. I feel this its in large part due to the side baffles.

Regarding placement on the wall,...
It is a short wall to begin with. So, it limits just what you can do as far as being too high or too low.  The floor on either side of the center aisle is ceramic tile, and highly reflective, so my thought was that being higher was going to be better than the lower area.  I decided to stay clower to the center aisle, as going wider put me closer to active players, and I didn't want to highlight anyone in this, as much as trying for the overall blending.

My thoughts are it has high potential.
If i had it to do all over again, I'd put some baffling under the piano; I'd like to have had the bass violin travel bags under the piano, for example. In one song, Bach BWV-1054 COncerto for Keyboard, the lid was opened, and that made a whole different sound in its presence.  Most of the show was played with the lid closed, which for this recording, made the piano less present.
But, the stage is small, and, they tried to bring him into the fold by pushing the piano as far into the setting as possible.  Always something.
I knew the piano was going to be bright, but, wanted to run the pattern anyway, and, just suck it up.  It turned out far better than I'd thought, with it being so close.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 08:58:55 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

Offline rocksuitcase

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4615
  • Gender: Male
    • RockSuitcase: stage photography
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2018, 09:10:04 AM »
What is it?
two recordings happening there.
1) Baffled omni pair, on center, as safety copy.
2) the experiment; two DPA4060's as spaced omni, boundary layer, rearward and side baffled omnis, and, CM3 at 0º
all time aligned.

trying to help with this image, below:
I'm digging this approach Mike. glad it looks as if you are liking the results as well.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

Offline Moke

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3541
  • m0k3 - √!n¥¬ 633|<
Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 2
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2018, 09:29:59 AM »
Here are a couple of samples:


Bach BWV-1054 Concerto for Keyboard w/ open lid - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample
Genesis - Its Gonna Be Better - mp3 partial
https://soundcloud.com/user-271082364/deccaboundarybaffledlayer-sample2

The piano is bright!  I went into this knowing that was going to be a possible problem.  It worked out better than I thought, and I'm quite happy wit the result; but, the piano is a bit bright due to its proximity.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 11:31:23 AM by Moke »
Sent From My Craftsman Garage Door Opener

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.216 seconds with 36 queries.
© 2002-2018 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF