Topic: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10

[Belexes]

What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping?

Tiny improvement? Try major. I have paired up the M10 with a pre and various pairs of outboard mics that vastly improve anything the onboard mics could do.

[yltfan]

Another vote for Nak's.

I used to run Nak 300's straight into an iRiver (about $300 worth of gear). One time, I ran them on the same stand as someone with about $12,000 worth of gear. His recording sounded a little better, but just a little. Pairs have been popping up here occasionally, or post an ISO. They will run for a real long time on the internal mics (the only drawback is that the batteries cost $10-12 each, and can be a little hard to find), and you can get different caps for them, including the classic cp-4 shotgun caps.

In response to the above post about the built-in mics, I think the improvement you get just from getting the mics up above the crowd is worth the investment. I'll let other weigh in on the difference in the mics.

[setboy]

Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!

Will do, but i will be enjoying it with out board mics!

[Church-Audio]

Really .... what is wrong with the built-in mics on the Sony? 

What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping? 

You are recording the PA system, for corn's sake!  Isn't that why you bought a good portable recorder in the first place? 

Wasn't Michele Shocked's "Campfire" CD recorded with a portable Walkman cassette or a Minidisc?  Didn't Springsteen record "Nebraska" on a Teac Portastudio 144?

Lighten up, bothers and sisters.  Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!

I think the "reason" to have outboard mics is

A- placement is never EVER optimal with internal mics..

B- placement is never EVER optimal with internal mics..

C- The mics in most recorders overload way to easily why because most recorders are designed to do a "wide" variety of things besides record music. Like recording speech.. Two very different applications requiring very sensitive preamps and mic capsules that are prone to overload.

D- Because nothing makes me cringe more then a bad recording.

I might be biased since I make alot of this "external gear" but I have yet to hear to many recordings of "concerts" at concert spl levels that sounded great.

And most PA systems you talk about nowadays unless your in a chicken wing hut. Sound better then most peoples home stereos.

Chris

[rastasean]

This sounds like me! I used to ask why we spend so much money on gear to record musicians and singers who use something as cheap as a mono sm57.

I don't want to be arrogant but I think after listening to many live recordings of music and seeing many live shows (that I taped or not) I am understanding MIXING better and better ;the sound engineer is the key to a good live audience recording AND soundboard recordings.

With that said, once you listen to many live recordings I think you'll be able to differentiate the difference between internal mics on a recorder and ones 6-10 feet up in the air. The m10 does have a standard tripod mount so you may be able to put it up on a lightstand and get it away from the crowd.

If carrying your gear isn't your thang, no sweat--carry someone else's.

Really .... what is wrong with the built-in mics on the Sony? 

What tiny bit of improvement will you get with hundreds of $$ of outboard mics, preamps, cables and batteries?  Especially compared to the gazzilion hassles of lugging and shlepping? 

You are recording the PA system, for corn's sake!  Isn't that why you bought a good portable recorder in the first place? 

Wasn't Michele Shocked's "Campfire" CD recorded with a portable Walkman cassette or a Minidisc?  Didn't Springsteen record "Nebraska" on a Teac Portastudio 144?

Lighten up, bothers and sisters.  Forget all this nonsense and enjoy the music!

[Eliezer]

Tiny improvement? Try major. I have paired up the M10 with a pre and various pairs of outboard mics that vastly improve anything the onboard mics could do.

Sure.  Under ideal circumstances in a quiet room or studio.  This is outdoors, recording a mono PA system from many feet away through crowd noise and weather.

If the idea is to capture some folk or bluegrass music for later enjoyment at home, I don't think the extra hundreds of dollars and pounds of equipment and carrying bags and worry about theft is worth the hassle.  Or the slightly smoother treble.

Plus, you really don't get to enjoy the music while you are actually there.

If you are desperate for quality, plug into the PA board.  If you are a musician and get the artist's permission first, the quality will be much much better.  And you get to go to the party afterwards.

I still enjoy listening to concerts recorded on my old Sony portable cassette with the twisting level meter (the A-101??  Years before the Walkman.  Say 1973)

And, yes - I am a recording musician who has spent hours demoing mics and mic pres to get the best recording of my instrument.  And I have been the Sound Director of several folk festivals.

Unless I am doing field recordings in Yugoslavia or Georgia or capturing some guy who will not live to the next festival, good enough is good enough.

[rastasean]

Well then be happy. Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this? Go listen to all the bad recordings on LMA for me since I won't bother.

If it is a completely mono mix (i.e. just on PA speaker), I personally wouldn't bother taking out too much gear but who knows.

[Church-Audio]

Tiny improvement? Try major. I have paired up the M10 with a pre and various pairs of outboard mics that vastly improve anything the onboard mics could do.

Sure.  Under ideal circumstances in a quiet room or studio.  This is outdoors, recording a mono PA system from many feet away through crowd noise and weather.

If the idea is to capture some folk or bluegrass music for later enjoyment at home, I don't think the extra hundreds of dollars and pounds of equipment and carrying bags and worry about theft is worth the hassle.  Or the slightly smoother treble.

Plus, you really don't get to enjoy the music while you are actually there.

If you are desperate for quality, plug into the PA board.  If you are a musician and get the artist's permission first, the quality will be much much better.  And you get to go to the party afterwards.

I still enjoy listening to concerts recorded on my old Sony portable cassette with the twisting level meter (the A-101??  Years before the Walkman.  Say 1973)

And, yes - I am a recording musician who has spent hours demoing mics and mic pres to get the best recording of my instrument.  And I have been the Sound Director of several folk festivals.

Unless I am doing field recordings in Yugoslavia or Georgia or capturing some guy who will not live to the next festival, good enough is good enough.

Sound is very subjective. Something I have learned mixing live shows for over 20 years. Including bluegrass. Rock, heavy metal, Jazz, Blues, Reggae. Classical and just about anything else that could be mixed and put through speakers. One thing I have learned is even the worst mic in a good position will sound vastly better then the best mic placed in the worst position. Can you produce good results with internal mics YES if they dont overload. But you will get better results in any live band recording situation with good external mics that are placed well.

Chris

[Eliezer]

It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

I have talked to several tapers - at my concerts and at other people's concerts.  No one has successfully explained what they do with all their recordings.  So far as I can tell, it is a way to avoid purchasing the artist's CD.  The times that all this recording (and labeling and filing and storing) has led to later purchases can be counted on my left hand.

Then again, lots of musicians tape each other, in order to learn new tunes and such.  In fact, I have a treasured memory of a very famous Irish flutist making an hour-long recording of tunes for a newbie flute-player .... in a fogged-up car, on a rainy day, on to a $60 Radio Snack portable using the built-in microphone.  And that lady took that tape and became a world-class Irish flutist.  She was my room-mate at the time and I watched it happen.  And got to clean the heads on her portable first so she could hear the music better!

[rastasean]

It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

I have talked to several tapers - at my concerts and at other people's concerts.  No one has successfully explained what they do with all their recordings. So far as I can tell, it is a way to avoid purchasing the artist's CD.  The times that all this recording (and labeling and filing and storing) has led to later purchases can be counted on my left hand.

Then again, lots of musicians tape each other, in order to learn new tunes and such.  In fact, I have a treasured memory of a very famous Irish flutist making an hour-long recording of tunes for a newbie flute-player .... in a fogged-up car, on a rainy day, on to a $60 Radio Snack portable using the built-in microphone.  And that lady took that tape and became a world-class Irish flutist.  She was my room-mate at the time and I watched it happen.  And got to clean the heads on her portable first so she could hear the music better!

you seem like some kind of troll and it seems like people's opinions won't mind. That's fine, I'm not trying to tell you're wasting your time by listening to Irish Flute music.

What does "successfully explained" mean? Does it have to meet flow chart criteria that you assembled?
Have you ever heard of the live music archive? What in the hell do you think we do with the recordings? hold it random against the band until we receive a large amount of money? trade it for drugs?

[Church-Audio]

It's just one folk musician's opinion, but if you are more concerned with squeezing out the last bit of frequency response instead of enjoying the music at a concert or festival, then you will have super recordings when you get home ... and less than super memories.

I have talked to several tapers - at my concerts and at other people's concerts.  No one has successfully explained what they do with all their recordings.  So far as I can tell, it is a way to avoid purchasing the artist's CD.  The times that all this recording (and labeling and filing and storing) has led to later purchases can be counted on my left hand.

Then again, lots of musicians tape each other, in order to learn new tunes and such.  In fact, I have a treasured memory of a very famous Irish flutist making an hour-long recording of tunes for a newbie flute-player .... in a fogged-up car, on a rainy day, on to a $60 Radio Snack portable using the built-in microphone.  And that lady took that tape and became a world-class Irish flutist.  She was my room-mate at the time and I watched it happen.  And got to clean the heads on her portable first so she could hear the music better!

I dont disagree that the music should be first.. But with this hobby that does not always happen for some of these guys its about the quality of the capture and being able to play it back at home or with friends at a later date and enjoy it. Enjoyment for most of these guys my self included is more then just the performance its the quality of the capture. I cant listen to anything that is substandard unless we are talking about old Blues 78's.... Then its all about the music.. AND NOT about the sound quality. But thankfully this is not 1922 and we dont have a gramophone for recording music we have some very high end gear that allows us when properly used to capture a performance for future generations of people that will appreciate all the hard work that went into the recording of the music they are listening to. There is always two sides to every coin.

I also STRONGLY disagree that the reason most people tape here is to "avoid" purchasing the artists music.. They have done more then that. They have purchased the concert tickets to go see them.. You want reality? The reality is that the music industry is dead and its dieing a slow and painful death.. There are no profits in being a record company anymore... Its now about making money with tours. Selling concert tickets... Because only a handful of select few artists ever break even on the record sales. Anyway trading shows back and forth is not what the problem is.. The problem is people *scum bags" that buy a cd and copy it and reproduce it for friends. That's what is killing the music industry.. There is no avoidance of buying cd's from the people here as a matter of fact if you asked most of them I bet they would say they have more cd's at home then live recordings.

I think maybe you should take the time to "learn" about this community a little more before you make silly comments like you did.

[Eliezer]

Regarding Message #11 by rastasean

Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this?

I'm not going to repeat myself, but let's look at the Original Post, shall we?

I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.

The Sony is a pretty damned good machine.  And it sounds (somewhat or noticeably) better than similarly priced units.  And the OP is going to outdoor folk and bluegrass concerts, so there won't be much of a chance to overload those terrible mic preamps.

Someone has convinced the OP that he needs hundreds of dollars of more crap or he won't get a decent recording to enjoy next February.

I am trying to convince him to save his money -- for this purpose.  All he needs is some kind of a stand and some kind of a case to keep the mud and rain off of it.  And to relax and enjoy the music.

My guess is that he will buy $360 of more gear ... and won't buy any of the artists' CDs.



And BTW - this is the first place I have ever heard that the Sony mics overload.  I was just about to order one, so someone set me straight on this before I do.

[bluelawn]

Regarding Message #11 by rastasean

Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this?

I'm not going to repeat myself, but let's look at the Original Post, shall we?

I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.

The Sony is a pretty damned good machine.  And it sounds (somewhat or noticeably) better than similarly priced units.  And the OP is going to outdoor folk and bluegrass concerts, so there won't be much of a chance to overload those terrible mic preamps.

Someone has convinced the OP that he needs hundreds of dollars of more crap or he won't get a decent recording to enjoy next February.

I am trying to convince him to save his money -- for this purpose.  All he needs is some kind of a stand and some kind of a case to keep the mud and rain off of it.  And to relax and enjoy the music.

My guess is that he will buy $360 of more gear ... and won't buy any of the artists' CDs.



And BTW - this is the first place I have ever heard that the Sony mics overload.  I was just about to order one, so someone set me straight on this before I do.

i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

[Church-Audio]

Regarding Message #11 by rastasean

Honestly, are you trying to persuade us not to do this?

I'm not going to repeat myself, but let's look at the Original Post, shall we?

I just got a new Sony PCM-M10 and I really like it so far.  I will be trying to tape a couple of outdoor concerts (folk and blugrass) later this summer, and I would like to have some suggestions on a "starter" rig.

The Sony is a pretty damned good machine.  And it sounds (somewhat or noticeably) better than similarly priced units.  And the OP is going to outdoor folk and bluegrass concerts, so there won't be much of a chance to overload those terrible mic preamps.

Someone has convinced the OP that he needs hundreds of dollars of more crap or he won't get a decent recording to enjoy next February.

I am trying to convince him to save his money -- for this purpose.  All he needs is some kind of a stand and some kind of a case to keep the mud and rain off of it.  And to relax and enjoy the music.

My guess is that he will buy $360 of more gear ... and won't buy any of the artists' CDs.



And BTW - this is the first place I have ever heard that the Sony mics overload.  I was just about to order one, so someone set me straight on this before I do.

i could use your reasoning to ask why a artist would want to buy a expensive Martin guitar that costs thousands when a $60 chinese guitar will get the job done?

Thank you.... That was good....

[Eliezer]

OK Now you are starting to get nasty, rastasean.  And I don't need it.  I told you who I talked to, what they said, and under what circumstances.  Stick with that and don't extrapolate to other people and other situations.

If anyone else would like to describe when and how the built-in Sony mics overload .... before I buy one at the recommendation of a musician and musical instrument maker -- who has ears sensitive to any kind of distortion -- speak now or forever hold your peace.