Topic: Help with SP-CMC-8 set-up

[Andrea82]

Hi to all!
This week I receive my new mics, the SP-CMC-8 with cardioids capsule, and the battery box SP-CMC-10.
I have the Edirol R09HR, the Sony PCM-M10 and the Tascam DR-2D.

Can you help me to set the correct input level to these recorders for a rock concert?
The line in input is better than the mic input?

Today I did some practice, I plug the mics on the battery box, then the bb on the recorder on the line in input.
I notice the peak meters moved together at the same leves, without the separation on the 2 channel.
If i put only one mic close to the speaker his peak meter must be close to the 0db, but only 1 channel not 2. Hope you understand me.
Is it a problem or I miss something?

Thank you all

[paulbaptiste]

IF i understand correctly than yes that is a problem.  If you speak into one mic, that only those levels should change on your recorder, not both L and R.  Also make sure your settings are for stereo on your device and not mono

[LikeASong]

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

The problem you're describing might be due to a plug failure that's making your stereo signal to be recognised as mono by the recorder. Have you inserted all the plugs into the jacks correctly? Does it happen with both microphones or just with one of them? And have you got your recorder(s) set to record in mono or stereo?

[TimSmith]

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

Why? I use BB into mic-in if I can't get enough gain with line in. Is that wrong?  I don't have a preamp right now, so it seems like the only choise...

[Andrea82]

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

The problem you're describing might be due to a plug failure that's making your stereo signal to be recognised as mono by the recorder. Have you inserted all the plugs into the jacks correctly? Does it happen with both microphones or just with one of them? And have you got your recorder(s) set to record in mono or stereo?

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

The problem you're describing might be due to a plug failure that's making your stereo signal to be recognised as mono by the recorder. Have you inserted all the plugs into the jacks correctly? Does it happen with both microphones or just with one of them? And have you got your recorder(s) set to record in mono or stereo?

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, you understand my problem.
I check again the settingson the recorders, they're stereo and not mono.
I put other mics in the bb, and the problem is the same. So the battery box is failure. 

[LikeASong]

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

Why? I use BB into mic-in if I can't get enough gain with line in. Is that wrong?  I don't have a preamp right now, so it seems like the only choise...

Going line-in you avoid the recorder's preamps, which use to be noisy and low-quality. Getting lower levels shouldn't get you worried as you can always easily bump it in post-proccessing. Getting rid of the preamp's noise is harder, if not impossible.

Of course, this are just my 2 cents and the most general opinion around here. If you've been using it the other way round and it works for you, then go ahead Whatever floats your boat I guess

[LikeASong]

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

The problem you're describing might be due to a plug failure that's making your stereo signal to be recognised as mono by the recorder. Have you inserted all the plugs into the jacks correctly? Does it happen with both microphones or just with one of them? And have you got your recorder(s) set to record in mono or stereo?

If you use your battery box, you should go LINE-IN and avoid the mic input.

The problem you're describing might be due to a plug failure that's making your stereo signal to be recognised as mono by the recorder. Have you inserted all the plugs into the jacks correctly? Does it happen with both microphones or just with one of them? And have you got your recorder(s) set to record in mono or stereo?

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, you understand my problem.
I check again the settingson the recorders, they're stereo and not mono.
I put other mics in the bb, and the problem is the same. So the battery box is failure. 

Yes, the battery box should have some damaged wirings. Having it fixed or repaired might be your best option - or get another one altogether. Cheap, reliable bboxes pop regullarly on the Yard Sale for around 30 bucks.

[TimSmith]

Going line-in you avoid the recorder's preamps, which use to be noisy and low-quality. Getting lower levels shouldn't get you worried as you can always easily bump it in post-proccessing. Getting rid of the preamp's noise is harder, if not impossible.

Of course, this are just my 2 cents and the most general opinion around here. If you've been using it the other way round and it works for you, then go ahead Whatever floats your boat I guess

So going BB -> line-in instead of mic-in would give me better signal to noise ratio? I think I should use so-called "unity gain" in this case, which is somewhere around 4-6 (as many people say) on Sony PCM-m10. Is that right?

[LikeASong]

Going line-in you avoid the recorder's preamps, which use to be noisy and low-quality. Getting lower levels shouldn't get you worried as you can always easily bump it in post-proccessing. Getting rid of the preamp's noise is harder, if not impossible.

Of course, this are just my 2 cents and the most general opinion around here. If you've been using it the other way round and it works for you, then go ahead Whatever floats your boat I guess

So going BB -> line-in instead of mic-in would give me better signal to noise ratio? I think I should use so-called "unity gain" in this case, which is somewhere around 4-6 (as many people say) on Sony PCM-m10. Is that right?

I don't know about unity gain as I don't own that particular deck, but the answer to your 1st question (s/n ratio) is yes.

[TimSmith]

Well, I've just done some tests at home and the answer is that there is no benefit in s/n ratio when using line-in instead of mic-in (on pcm-m10). I think it may be different on other devices. I've done two tests, each with music & silence parts. I normalized the music and compared the noise levels. For each test I kept my stereo on the same volume, so the test must be accurate.

part 1 (I chose these settings to match the sound levels while recording):

- line-in, BB, level 10 - noise: approx -55db
- mic-in, BB, level 3 - noise: approx -55db

Noise with line-in sounds a bit more annoing, though its level is same as with mic-in.


part 2:

-line-in, BB, level 5 - noise: approx -45db
-mic-in, BB, level 5 - noise: approx -57bd

note: these tests don't correspond with each other.


So I shall continue using mic-in for quiet/moderately loud shows. 

[bombdiggity]

Well, I've just done some tests at home and the answer is that there is no benefit in s/n ratio when using line-in instead of mic-in (on pcm-m10). I think it may be different on other devices. I've done two tests, each with music & silence parts. I normalized the music and compared the noise levels. For each test I kept my stereo on the same volume, so the test must be accurate.

Even Sony gives their specs (frequency, signal to noise and total harmonic distortion) as "Line input to line output"
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/cat/audio/brochures/PCMM10Recorder_A1178.pdf

They do not however provide the specs for both line-in and mic-in as many manufacturers do.  When those specs are given for the same unit most or all measures are better line-in. 

If the manufacturers agree there's a difference there is one.  Whether it is audible may depend on many factors. 

Leaving out the preamp in a $200-$300 device that is designed to do a lot more than be a preamp is a good idea if one can do it.

Most of what I recorded was too low to even register on the meters on my lo-pro rig going mic > bb > line-in so I was usually running the bb into the mic-in.  I noted a dramatic improvement in the noise floor (and some improvement in the sound) when I got a tinybox.  It's worth getting a good pre-amp if you record a dynamic unamplified concert (or especially a workshop/discussion).  If you record loud rock shows it may not be audible to most ears.  Granted I think the Sonys have a better built-in pre-amp section than other small recorders.

[F.O.Bean]

I have run BB/Preamp>MIC IN quite a few times. I think the M10s preamps are better than most handheld recorders. But last week I ran 9100>LINE IN and had lower levels but the recordings came out great and I didnt have any problem with the noise floor normalizing the WAVS

[illconditioned]

I have run BB/Preamp>MIC IN quite a few times. I think the M10s preamps are better than most handheld recorders. But last week I ran 9100>LINE IN and had lower levels but the recordings came out great and I didnt have any problem with the noise floor normalizing the WAVS

Mic in on the Sony units (M10, D50) are excellent.  Better than anything except the best preamp.  An external preamp will help other recorders (Tascam, Edirol, etc), but Sony has excellent inputs.  Ambient recording with mic in (high sens) is excellent, and any noise is almost certainly from the microphone.

The question of whether to use mic in or line in depends on the sound level.  For amplified shows I usually run mic in (low sens), but very occasionally will go line in if it is really loud.

Also, if you use an external battery box remember to turn off plug in power.  That will give you a bit more gain for quiet recording.  For loud recording, of course, it does not matter.

  Richard

[LikeASong]

^ I didn't understand that last part... "remember to turn off plug in power.  That will give you a bit more gain" ... What does gain with PIP have to do? Am I missing something?

[TimSmith]

^ I didn't understand that last part... "remember to turn off plug in power.  That will give you a bit more gain" ... What does gain with PIP have to do? Am I missing something?

I guess the more voltage you supply to the mics - the less sensitive they become (I not an expert at all). I noticed this when I compared BB vs PIP.