Topic: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives

[Amir]

I'd rather have a mic pair rather than a single mic -- preferably in combination with a battery box or preamp. So the Countryman B3 seems to be a single mic and if I get two B3's, I should take care of 2 wires/connections. This is all against the comfort factor as I can't easily achieve that with the PCM-D100.

Yes, get 2 and wire/have them wired into a single stereo mini plug. I had mine shipped directly to one of the folks here (Jon @ Naiant since he's localish to me iirc), but any of the other cable makers should be able to do it for you.

You posted while I was typing. Don't underestimate the B3s, they sound better than many mics 10x the cost including many/most you mentioned.

Comp this with the other tapes that day: https://archive.org/details/furthur2012-07-11.bryonsos

I knew there would be a bunch of other tapers, so I figured I'd see how they compared to the big boys, and somebody would make a good tape. More or comparable downloads to everything else posted.

I'll second what bryonsos has posted.  Full Compass and B&H generally don't keep the pigtail/unterminated B3s in stock and will have them drop-shipped directly from Countryman.  If you call Full Compass, not only will they match the best price you can find if their's isn't already the lowest, but you can have them ship the mics directly to one of the TS board cablers (darktrain, tgakidis, etc) where they will then do the termination work and ship them to you when it's done.  That's how I did my B3s and I couldn't be happier with them.

That's if you like the sound of the B3s.  As adrianf posted, not everyone cares for their flavor, but the excellent DPA 4061s that he recommends will cost you at least twice as much new as the B3s.

Perhaps I should alter my perspective when it comes to the B3 . The B3 is Omni -- if I'm not mistaken, but I'd rather get cardioids for recording concerts and large venues. The venerable DPA's are also Omni which I'm not sure how can be utilized in a place with unwanted noise and the unexpected extra chatter. As such, I'd rather get cards. Or perhaps something is terribly wrong with my lines of argumentation.

[adrianf74]

I'd rather have a mic pair rather than a single mic -- preferably in combination with a battery box or preamp. So the Countryman B3 seems to be a single mic and if I get two B3's, I should take care of 2 wires/connections. This is all against the comfort factor as I can't easily achieve that with the PCM-D100.

Yes, get 2 and wire/have them wired into a single stereo mini plug. I had mine shipped directly to one of the folks here (Jon @ Naiant since he's localish to me iirc), but any of the other cable makers should be able to do it for you.

You posted while I was typing. Don't underestimate the B3s, they sound better than many mics 10x the cost including many/most you mentioned.

Comp this with the other tapes that day: https://archive.org/details/furthur2012-07-11.bryonsos

I knew there would be a bunch of other tapers, so I figured I'd see how they compared to the big boys, and somebody would make a good tape. More or comparable downloads to everything else posted.

I'll second what bryonsos has posted.  Full Compass and B&H generally don't keep the pigtail/unterminated B3s in stock and will have them drop-shipped directly from Countryman.  If you call Full Compass, not only will they match the best price you can find if their's isn't already the lowest, but you can have them ship the mics directly to one of the TS board cablers (darktrain, tgakidis, etc) where they will then do the termination work and ship them to you when it's done.  That's how I did my B3s and I couldn't be happier with them.

That's if you like the sound of the B3s.  As adrianf posted, not everyone cares for their flavor, but the excellent DPA 4061s that he recommends will cost you at least twice as much new as the B3s.

Perhaps I should alter my perspective when it comes to the B3 . The B3 is Omni -- if I'm not mistaken, but I'd rather get cardioids for recording concerts and large venues. The venerable DPA's are also Omni which I'm not sure how can be utilized in a place with unwanted noise and the unexpected extra chatter. As such, I'd rather get cards. Or perhaps something is terribly wrong with my lines of argumentation.

The small cards versus small omni debate... again.  Personally, I find all small cards lacking in something (be it clarity, be it their sonic signature) but never found this with small omnis. Some people prefer the sound of small omnis (despite increased background chatter pickup) over small cards (myself included).   That's why you'll see the B3s and 4061s in many tapers' kits who run larger mics (actives out full bodied).

I'm not going to say to avoid the CMC-25 because if you like its sound, go for it, but it is expensive for something we know nothing about (at least we knew the older mic options were based on Audio Technica capsules). 

If you want cards, I'd suggest CK61/3 actives but they're not small.

[Amir]

The small cards versus small omni debate... again.  Personally, I find all small cards lacking in something (be it clarity, be it their sonic signature) but never found this with small omnis. Some people prefer the sound of small omnis (despite increased background chatter pickup) over small cards (myself included).   That's why you'll see the B3s and 4061s in many tapers' kits who run larger mics (actives out full bodied).

I'm not going to say to avoid the CMC-25 because if you like its sound, go for it, but it is expensive for something we know nothing about (at least we knew the older mic options were based on Audio Technica capsules). 

If you want cards, I'd suggest CK61/3 actives but they're not small.

You do have a valid point -- omnis present a more natural tone as, unlike cards, they don't have to alter anything reaching their capsules. At the same time they tend to pick up unwanted stuff more easily -- you're all too familiar with the pros and cons of both.
The 4061's are difficult to avoid given their track record. Do you know if one can listen to and compare two concerts/shows recorded via small omnis and small cards? Or perhaps am I looking for too much of a good thing?

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I used to have the same view of small omnis as you do, Amir, and for a long time only used cardioid lavaliers when stealth recording.  In fact, I do still have a few sets in my mic locker and I did manage to get some very good pulls with them.  But then I started listening to recordings done with 4061s and B3s and it was pretty eye-opening how much better they sounded to me compared to the small cards.  So much so that I bit the bullet and got a set of B3s.  Your concerns of omnis picking up more unwanted noise is a valid one and you do have to take a slightly different tact in terms of placement and positioning in a venue.  For instance, I'd be reluctant to use omnis if I had a seat at the back of an arena.  But with a little creativity you can get some excellent results with a minimum of unwanted chatter.

[Amir]

I used to have the same view of small omnis as you do, Amir, and for a long time only used cardioid lavaliers when stealth recording.  In fact, I do still have a few sets in my mic locker and I did manage to get some very good pulls with them.  But then I started listening to recordings done with 4061s and B3s and it was pretty eye-opening how much better they sounded to me compared to the small cards.  So much so that I bit the bullet and got a set of B3s.  Your concerns of omnis picking up more unwanted noise is a valid one and you do have to take a slightly different tact in terms of placement and positioning in a venue.  For instance, I'd be reluctant to use omnis if I had a seat at the back of an arena.  But with a little creativity you can get some excellent results with a minimum of unwanted chatter.

Your point is well taken. After checking some recordings today and consulting with a couple of friends I also came to the conclusion that omnis would be a better purchase. I usually select seats at one of the front rows and this can keep chatter to a good minimum. Omnis also apparently offer a relatively higher SPL performance.

[bombdiggity]

Thanks, man, for your blow-by-blow analysis of this topic.
Having looked into that further, I've also come to the conclusion that cards would fit what I want to achieve better. The CMC-25 which you recommended sounds like a great mic, but I'm worried about its very low SPL numbers. Without any modifications it just provides 105dB of SPL -- too low for such a price point. With extra power options the SPL will be extended to 117dB/130dB. I'm assuming that the battery box option offers 117dB which is, apparently, still worrisome. Of course, I'm quoting these numbers from SP's page for the mic -- http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-25
Is this a valid concern? For the record, I don't have those SPL numbers for CMC-8 as SP doesn't display them, but the SPL numbers for the cheaper CMC-2 is head and shoulders above those of the CMC-25.
It's worth mentioning (and perhaps I should've mentioned it earlier) that I do have the USBPre2 which can provide phantom power to any of these mic configurations. I can take it to any venue if required though I've always preferred to move around as gear-light as possible. So would I still need a battery box, or a Tinybox for that matter, if I cary the USBPre2 along with its light USB battery bank?

I've never had an issue with the max SPL of the CMC-25, though would not (anymore) go to a show where I'd expect that was really going to be a factor.  I've done some loud ones with the battery box with no issue. 

There may still be on DIME the first show I ever ran on my set: Bjork at the NY Hall of Science.  There were some truly loud moments (with the electronic effects and tesla coil) and it was just fine.  Done from the second row.  One of our NY peeps here (I think Dan?) recorded on DPA's also second row.  I'm not sure if it was the same night but may have been.  It's not a true A-B but certainly close enough to get an idea.  I liked the CMC-25s, though both seem to be regarded as the best recordings of that tour. 

We also ran Crazy Horse at an arena which was quite loud, but we were fairly far back (the optimized for video seats).  No problems there, though that was with the Tinybox. 

The SP's don't require phantom.  Just plug-in power levels.  I'm not sure they can use phantom.  The DPA's require more than plug in but are also not phantom (at least as far as I know). 


Following along in the thread if you do record front row at large, loud amplified shows omnis may work for you if that is your preference.  Front row can be tricky since with PA's that is sort of no-man's land.  You're not really getting the PA directly, you've got monitors and stage sound, but at least you don't have as much crowd in the field.  A wider pattern may help get the balance that is not exactly a sure thing in that position.   

I use cards stage lip at unamplified shows (that is my typical setup).  I like the directionality and avoiding as much as possible the inevitable noises from the crowd.  It's not a textbook application but having done a lot of them I'd never do anything else given the option.  Those can have really loud transients (2 to 3 feet from a drum kit being thoroughly thrashed can be thunderous) but I've never had an issue with the SP's when I've used them that way either. 

[Fried Chicken Boy]

I've never had an issue with the max SPL of the CMC-25, though would not (anymore) go to a show where I'd expect that was really going to be a factor.  I've done some loud ones with the battery box with no issue. 

There may still be on DIME the first show I ever ran on my set: Bjork at the NY Hall of Science.  There were some truly loud moments (with the electronic effects and tesla coil) and it was just fine.  Done from the second row.  One of our NY peeps here (I think Dan?) recorded on DPA's also second row.  I'm not sure if it was the same night but may have been.  It's not a true A-B but certainly close enough to get an idea.  I liked the CMC-25s, though both seem to be regarded as the best recordings of that tour. 

acidjack's recording at NY Hall of Science with 4061s.  He also used only a battery box for powering the mics and it came out just fine. > http://www.nyctaper.com/2012/02/bjork-february-12-2012-new-york-hall-of-science-flac-and-mp3-downloads-streaming-songs/

[bombdiggity]

I've never had an issue with the max SPL of the CMC-25, though would not (anymore) go to a show where I'd expect that was really going to be a factor.  I've done some loud ones with the battery box with no issue. 

There may still be on DIME the first show I ever ran on my set: Bjork at the NY Hall of Science.  There were some truly loud moments (with the electronic effects and tesla coil) and it was just fine.  Done from the second row.  One of our NY peeps here (I think Dan?) recorded on DPA's also second row.  I'm not sure if it was the same night but may have been.  It's not a true A-B but certainly close enough to get an idea.  I liked the CMC-25s, though both seem to be regarded as the best recordings of that tour. 

acidjack's recording at NY Hall of Science with 4061s.  He also used only a battery box for powering the mics and it came out just fine. > http://www.nyctaper.com/2012/02/bjork-february-12-2012-new-york-hall-of-science-flac-and-mp3-downloads-streaming-songs/

Ah.  I missed Jack in person by 6 days or so apparently (I thought it might have been Dan who ran that one)... 

Mine still resides here: 

http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=393396

I put a few MP3 samples on it, but forget what the bit rate of those was.  Maybe 320... 

For me the cards caught more than enough of the room (sample 2 for instance) as they always do for me. 

This was in the round in a round-ish room so not an entirely typical ambiance relative to most shows.  One of the cooler shows I've gone to (despite my predisposition to jazz these days).   

[Amir]

I've never had an issue with the max SPL of the CMC-25, though would not (anymore) go to a show where I'd expect that was really going to be a factor.  I've done some loud ones with the battery box with no issue. 

There may still be on DIME the first show I ever ran on my set: Bjork at the NY Hall of Science.  There were some truly loud moments (with the electronic effects and tesla coil) and it was just fine.  Done from the second row.  One of our NY peeps here (I think Dan?) recorded on DPA's also second row.  I'm not sure if it was the same night but may have been.  It's not a true A-B but certainly close enough to get an idea.  I liked the CMC-25s, though both seem to be regarded as the best recordings of that tour. 

We also ran Crazy Horse at an arena which was quite loud, but we were fairly far back (the optimized for video seats).  No problems there, though that was with the Tinybox. 

The SP's don't require phantom.  Just plug-in power levels.  I'm not sure they can use phantom.  The DPA's require more than plug in but are also not phantom (at least as far as I know). 


Following along in the thread if you do record front row at large, loud amplified shows omnis may work for you if that is your preference.  Front row can be tricky since with PA's that is sort of no-man's land.  You're not really getting the PA directly, you've got monitors and stage sound, but at least you don't have as much crowd in the field.  A wider pattern may help get the balance that is not exactly a sure thing in that position.   

I use cards stage lip at unamplified shows (that is my typical setup).  I like the directionality and avoiding as much as possible the inevitable noises from the crowd.  It's not a textbook application but having done a lot of them I'd never do anything else given the option.  Those can have really loud transients (2 to 3 feet from a drum kit being thoroughly thrashed can be thunderous) but I've never had an issue with the SP's when I've used them that way either.

Great stuff like your earlier message!
Listening to 2 varieties of that show would be quite interesting -- especially now that the links are at my disposal.
It's good to know that the CMC-25 doesn't clip with loud sounds. The Omni vs. card discussion is, and will be, always interesting. I'm trying to make the most informed and educated decision here and hope can end up getting the best mics sooner rather than later.
Thanks again for your invaluable insights.

[bombdiggity]

The DPA's require more than plug in but are also not phantom (at least as far as I know). 

I would note that I may stand corrected on the above piece.  I was under the impression the DPA's need 9V or something more than PIP (at least ideally) but perhaps not.  I think there is a DPA made preamp many use with them. 

Also note if the cost of the CMC's scare you the DPA's tend to run considerably higher (certainly if new)... 


Ideal is in the mind of the user (we all like what we like).  My first suggestion is to listen to a lot of recordings from whatever is under consideration.  It's not an ideal proxy since circumstances vary widely, but things also tend to vary a lot at any show the typical recordist goes to, so that may even out.  You will get an approximate picture of the "signature sound" with some listening.   

Personally I found DPA's to come across a bit muddy in most hall recordings. with at least the potential to pick up more of the crowd.  They may be very good up really close though, where those issues are less a factor, but it's IMO a mic for those who like more of the room in their recording.  The CMC's can be a little bright at times but the "mud rejection" is very good and some gentle eq can taper the high end.  The DPA's have much lower self-noise so if you record a lot of really quiet stuff that's in their favor.   At a moderately loud show that is not at all a factor with the CMC's.  The really quiet ones the noise floor can creep in. 

[Amir]

The DPA's require more than plug in but are also not phantom (at least as far as I know). 

I would note that I may stand corrected on the above piece.  I was under the impression the DPA's need 9V or something more than PIP (at least ideally) but perhaps not.  I think there is a DPA made preamp many use with them. 

Also note if the cost of the CMC's scare you the DPA's tend to run considerably higher (certainly if new)... 


Ideal is in the mind of the user (we all like what we like).  My first suggestion is to listen to a lot of recordings from whatever is under consideration.  It's not an ideal proxy since circumstances vary widely, but things also tend to vary a lot at any show the typical recordist goes to, so that may even out.  You will get an approximate picture of the "signature sound" with some listening.   

Personally I found DPA's to come across a bit muddy in most hall recordings. with at least the potential to pick up more of the crowd.  They may be very good up really close though, where those issues are less a factor, but it's IMO a mic for those who like more of the room in their recording.  The CMC's can be a little bright at times but the "mud rejection" is very good and some gentle eq can taper the high end.  The DPA's have much lower self-noise so if you record a lot of really quiet stuff that's in their favor.   At a moderately loud show that is not at all a factor with the CMC's.  The really quiet ones the noise floor can creep in.

All valid points, and thanks for the CMC/DPA quick comparison. I'm doing lots of listening these days ...
In an ideal world and if cost were not a concern, one would happily own both sets, but, alas, good-to-high-quality miniature cards/omnis are expensive -- especially for those who don't record stuff professionally or for a living. So, there I go...