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Author Topic: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10  (Read 18726 times)

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Offline HouserPhan

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Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« on: November 21, 2011, 10:59:42 PM »
So, I just purchased one of these recorders, and I'm pretty excited about it.  I primarily bought it to record my band's practices and shows, but will probably use it at some "real" concerts as well. 

I was hoping you guys could give me some advice here.  Our practice room is pretty small (12x12) and there are 4 of us crammed in there (2 guitars, drums, bass).  I will definitely be experimenting with different settings, placement, etc, but I was wondering what might be a good place to start as far as the rec level (auto or manual and, if manual, what setting) and mic sensitivity given the conditions (it can get pretty loud in the room).  I take it that, with the levels shown on the main screen and the green and red lights at each mic, that there is some ideal range you should try to stay within while adjusting the level? 

Also, I'm not really up to speed on the ideal mic direction in relation to the way the band is set up... basically, we all face each other with amps and PA sort of aimed towards the center of the room... is the center of the room the best place to record from?

Can't wait to try this thing out.

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2011, 01:52:07 AM »
I ran my M10 with internal mics for a month or so until I picked my mics.

Sample rate 48K, Bit Depth 24.
The advantage to using bit Depth of 24 is that you have extra dynamic range, ie volume, to work with. If you record with peaks hitting -12db (green lights on your M10) then you can convert to CD quality 44/16 and have a nice strong signal with little chance of hitting the limiter or clipping.

Limiter on.
Sometimes, you get the gain settings wrong. The limiter is preferable to clipping as it preserves the sound of the recording better.

Automatic Gain Control: OFF
AGC works by setting your gain levels high, then lowering them when you hit the limiter or clip. Works for speach but makes for a less than ideal music recording.


Sensitivity: Low
High sensitivity is a setting range for speach. Even unamplified music usually falls in the low setting range.


Gain: Try 2-3 for Rock. The goal is to have the green lights lighting up occasionally. If you see red, then it's hitting the limiter.


In Menu > Detail Menu > Cross Memory Recording. Select on. This way if you fill your memory card it will seamlessly start recording to the M10's internal 4GB memory.

Enjoy, I love my M10. Sounds great, and then excels with external mics.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 11:08:06 AM by ScoobieKW »
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2011, 05:42:33 AM »
Limiter on.
Sometimes, you get the gain settings wrong. The limiter is preferable to clipping as it preserves the sound of the recording better.

Yes! Most everyone says limiter off, but if you successessfully set levels so that it doesn't kick in it can't have any negative effect on the recording.  If it does occasionally kick in, it will definitely sound better than clipping (unless your levels are set way too high).

My limiter has always been on, but it has almost never kicked in. The few times my levels temporarily went a bit into the red, the recording still sounded OK.
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Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2011, 09:03:10 AM »
Thanks!  Is turning the limiter on/off something you do in the menus or is it a switch?

Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2011, 09:05:38 AM »
Also, are you referring to the "rec level" wheel when you talk about "gain" setting?

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2011, 09:40:45 AM »
Limiter on/off is a switch on the back of the M10.

Yes, gain setting is the wheel.

My 2 cents...as long as you don't set the recorder over 4 or 5, you'll be OK as long as you don't get red lights.  If you use a setting over 4, the M10 internal preamp gain setting is above unity gain and you could get distortion even if the red lights don't appear.  The higher the setting above unity gain / 4 or 5, the more likely you are to get distortion even if the red lights don't come on.  But as long as you stay below 4 or 5 on the wheel, you won't hear any distortion until you see red lights (but even then you might not hear any distortion, especially if you have the limiter on). 

In practice then, what I do is start at 4 and back off from there if my levels are too high.  But going in the other direction, if I start at 4 and my levels aren't high enough, I just live with my levels peaking at a lower level because I don't want to risk distorting my recording.  In that case, I will use my software to normalize my levels upwards in post because you can always fix a clean recording in post, but you can't fix a distorted recording.  Using 24bit recording setting allows you to do this because there is ample data information available so that the recording quality won't degrade as a result of bumping levels in post.  If you record in 16bit, there's not as much data and the recording might not sound as good if you have to adjust levels too much in post...this is why everyone uses 24bit now instead of 16...it's like having more pixels in a digital photo...you don't see the difference from far away, but you sure do when you get up close!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 09:54:37 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2011, 10:43:57 AM »
Missed the placement question.

Easy answer? Walk around and listen. Wherever it sounds most balanced between the different instruments is the "Sweet Spot'

Your M10 has a 1/4 inch threaded insert on it's bottom. If the sweet spot is in the middle of the room, use one of these on top of a mic stand. Or a camera tripod.

http://www.amazon.com/CM01-Camera-Digital-Recorder-Adapter/dp/B001GWCC4I

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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2011, 10:57:46 AM »
I think you have that backwards and wrong tonedeaf.  Please correct me if I am wrong or missing something.   

Between 4-6 is unity for the line-in setting as measured by guysonic and others (line-in to line-out).  I am not sure anyone has measured unity for the internal mic.  How could you measure that, we don't know what the sensitivity of the internal mics are, nor the gain structure of the mic preamp (which is different than the line-in structure).

Furthermore, the M10's internal preamp does not distort at any level from 2-10. Even if we assume that unity for internal mics is also 4-6, your post still doesn't make sense to me.  Yes, above 4 is no longer unity, but there is no distortion, just increased noise.  Why would increasing the gain of a quiet signal cause distortion on a properly working gain stage?  Below 2, you run the risk of brickwall distortion, only if the SPL's are above 128...(as measured by guysonic)  Between 2 and 10 should be perfectly fine at any SPL below 128.(or any line level below 21dbu)  Between 4-6 is ideal for noise as you are introducing less gain, but above 6 should not cause any audible distortion what-so-ever...


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Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2011, 11:04:56 AM »
To make this simple:

Sony M10 Knob settings:

1-2:    Poor (risk brickwalling with mic signals above 128SPL or line signals above 21dbu)
2-4:    Good (risk attenuation noise)
4-6:    ideal (unity gain)
6-10:  Good (risk gain noise)
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2011, 01:42:41 PM »
To make this simple:

Sony M10 Knob settings:

1-2:    Poor (risk brickwalling with mic signals above 128SPL or line signals above 21dbu)
2-4:    Good (risk attenuation noise)
4-6:    ideal (unity gain)
6-10:  Good (risk gain noise)

I might add that above 7 the recorder adds virtually no gain as mentioned by tonedeaf when the M10 came out. One of the few things one might quibble about with this recorder.
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Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2011, 02:08:50 PM »
This is probably a dumb question, but I suppose recording in MP3 mode is a sin?  Given that in most instances, I will only be using it to record practice for use by band members (to work out arrangements, changes, etc), and not for any type of pubilc distribution or archiving, I thought I would save myself the steps of converting the files to MP3.  I like the idea of marking and dividing the tracks on the device and simply plugging in the USB and drag / dropping the files onto the computer for quick distribution to band members.

If I don't plan to do any tinkering with the files via software after the fact, is there an advantage to recording in anything but MP3 mode?   If you are going to convert files to MP3 anyway (for ease of distribution and getting them on an ipod) is there any advantage or reason to record in one of the higher quality formats? 

Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2011, 02:17:34 PM »
Limiter on/off is a switch on the back of the M10.

Is this switch called something besides "limiter"?  Looking at the pics on line, the only switches I see on the back are:

1) Mic Sensitivity (high / low)
2) Record Level (manual / auto)
3) DPC - Speed Control (on / off)

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2011, 02:21:29 PM »
RE: MP3

You can always convert down to MP3 and have a quality output. Converting up from MP3 will never be as good as an original wav.

Also note the advantages to 24 bit recording we were mentioning above. Recording to MP3 will lose this advantage as it uses 16bit.

Who knows? Maybe you will catch some of that magic and want to do something with it. Bonus track? Internet download for fans with a bit of compression and mastering? Result will be much better if your original file is lossless.

Hard drive space is cheap, and converting to MP3 is painless.

I vote for WAV.
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2011, 02:22:54 PM »
Limiter on/off is a switch on the back of the M10.

Is this switch called something besides "limiter"?  Looking at the pics on line, the only switches I see on the back are:

1) Mic Sensitivity (high / low)
2) Record Level (manual / auto)
3) DPC - Speed Control (on / off)

The Limiter is turned on in software. Menu > Details Menu > Limiter.

The manual does cover a lot of this... ::)
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2011, 02:27:13 PM »
I vote for wave as well.

A good computer mp3 decoder will likely do a better job than one included in a recorder. Not worth the risk to record to mp3 directly. How long will the extra step take?

I would also recommend experimenting with doing your tracking on the computer. It should be much faster when you have a wave form to look at. The might also be some "dead" spaces in your recording that you might want to remove and since it's best to record with levels peaking at -12 dB or so, it would be best if you raised the peak level of the recording to near 0 dB as well. None of this simple stuff takes much time and would probably result in a more satisfying recording to listen to.
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Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2011, 03:37:42 PM »
I will definitely be reading the manual... I was only asking because someone said there was a limiter switch...

If you record on the highest quality setting can these files be played on a ipod without converting them?  Seems like these files might be hard to distribute via email if they are way bigger than MP3.  Is there a better way to distribute that is free?  In other words, are there any sites where i could upload them to where they could be available for others to download?

Sorry for all the newb questions, but this stuff is all like reading chinese to me right now...

Offline rastasean

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2011, 05:18:31 PM »
You are probably using pretty decent gear to practice on, right? It's not a walmart drum set or a target bass and the vocalist probably sounds pretty good, not like me when I sing, right? You probably also know how to play these instruments and make music, right?

What I am getting at is: record in higher quality than what mp3 offers and worry about the post processing later. If you set the recorder to 24bit 48KHz, it will record in a wav file which you can take and put on your computer and directly convert to mp3 or flac file and distribute online. Flac is equivalent to wav (as in lossless) which means it will sound the same as wav and require less processing and disk space.

I guess you could record in mp3 320kbps and down convert from there but you will never be able to convert to wav or flac.


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Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2011, 09:24:09 PM »
One more question... I want to go ahead and purchase a 16G memory card.  Everything I've read about the M10 says that it accepts micro SD cards, but I've read a review or two that state it only takes the Sony cards... ?

What memory cards are you guys using?  Can you recommend one?

Offline rastasean

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2011, 10:04:40 PM »
One more question... I want to go ahead and purchase a 16G memory card.  Everything I've read about the M10 says that it accepts micro SD cards, but I've read a review or two that state it only takes the Sony cards... ?

What memory cards are you guys using?  Can you recommend one?

You will find that us tapers are very malicious about our gear. lots of things have been answered before...including this topic...
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=147879.0

enjoy!
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Offline earmonger

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 12:10:36 AM »
Is there a better way to distribute that is free?  In other words, are there any sites where i could upload them to where they could be available for others to download?

There are many sites that act as digital lockers, where you can upload a fairly large file for free and send a link to your potential downloaders. Check out www.yousendit.com , www.mediafire.com , www.rapidshare.com , www.megaupload.com , etc.  There is also www.sharebee.com , which will upload a file to a bunch of those sites simultaneously.

Most of these sites have a size limit on free uploading--typically 100MB--and various paid versions with more options. 

Uploading to these sites--at least in the free option--is slow. Downloading is faster, so don't be discouraged.

Offline ArchivalAudio

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2011, 12:48:27 AM »
for sharing your own music
you might try
http://soundcloud.com/

I don't know much about it but it can also be easily shared with social media - FaceBook and the like...
kinda cool for musicians
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Offline newplanet7

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2011, 01:01:49 PM »
for sharing your own music
you might try
http://soundcloud.com/

I don't know much about it but it can also be easily shared with social media - FaceBook and the like...
kinda cool for musicians
--Ian
Soundcloud is great because they can stream it too.
I am on comcast so I have my own page where I can put up files to stream. But it's comcast.
Then you have all the other go to sites like sendspace, megaupload and such.
My favorite site to upload files for downloading is fyels.com . Each file can be up to 11gigs!

When you tape REAL shows you will definitely want/need external mics and/or a preamp/battery box
depending on the mics you will be using. Sure you may get a passable recording at a real show just using
the m10's internals BUT, that will be few.
However, for right now, the band practices will be fine.
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Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2011, 08:49:45 PM »
Thanks to all for the helpful advice! 

I got the device a few days ago and recorded my first practice with it today.  Now, I am in the process of figuring out what to do with the files. 

Per everyone's advice, I went ahead and recorded in the 48/24bit mode, and now I want to covert to MP3 for distribution.  I've installed the Soundforge software that came with it... I guess I can accomplish this with the software?  I've checked the help menus for coverting files, but can't seem to find anything.  Do I just do a save-as and specify MP3 as the format? 

What file types will iPods play?  Will they play wav files in the 48/24 mode I recorded them in?

Offline newplanet7

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2011, 09:40:20 PM »
If you want to encode to mp3 do it after you have processed and SAVED your wav files. Then after you saved your processed wav files.
drag and drop them from the folder to Traders Little Helper.
http://tlh.easytree.org/
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:47:39 PM by newplanet7 »
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline HouserPhan

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2011, 10:43:58 PM »
What do you mean by "processed"?  All I've done is drag & drop from the PCM to a folder on my PC.  I don't plan to do anything else to them at this point, as I'm clueless as to what should be done... lol.  As I have time, I may research how to make the tracks sound better with the provided software, but for now, I'm not going to do anything.  Are there any easy things you can do with the Soundforge software that I should do as a matter of standard practice when I pull the files onto my PC? 

I downloaded Trader's Little Helper...   I see where I go to Format>Convert Encoding Format and select MP3 as the "target format".  It also asks for compression level... what is that about?  I guess I should select 8 (best)?  Will those be files of managable size?

Offline earmonger

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 11:16:10 AM »

Executive summary: Save your .wav in an archive, unchanged.  For distribution, convert to 320kbps .mp3.

------------------
Some explanations:

The best mp3 is 320 kbps=kilobits per second. That's about 2.3 MB per minute.

Mp3 compresses a file--makes it smaller--by throwing away information.  A .wav file on a CD is 1411 kbps, kilobits per second.  So the mp3 has discarded a lot of information, and the more it compresses, the lower the fidelity.

But given those absolute numbers, the quality of mp3 sound is actually quite good, because it is designed to discard the least crucial parts of the waveform first, the parts you rarely notice.  And 320 kbps sounds fine to a lot of people.

Mp3 is called "lossy" compression, because you lose fidelity. There is also lossless compression--the FLAC format--which gives you files smaller than .wav files without losing fidelity. (How, given the numbers? Magic, as far as I am concerned.) Audiophiles like FLAC, and so do the online tapers' trading sites. However, FLAC files are larger than .mp3 files and an average listener may not have a player that plays them.

Processing means anything you want to do to the files--including, for instance, chopping a rehearsal recording into separate songs.

 If you just want quick and dirty, you don't have to do anything. And for your archives, you don't want to do anything. You want to save the original, unprocessed recording. You only want to process a copy, not the original, because presumably the original is the highest fidelity. (Though of course simply editing a long recording into separate songs doesn't change the fidelity.)

But there are an infinity of things you can do in processing. Suppose you were running at a rehearsal, had a false start, and then plunged into the song. You can edit out the false start. Or suppose you record a live set, and there's applause in between songs, and you want to distribute one song. You could make the track fade in on the applause from the previous song and fade out on the applause at the end, for a smoother listening experience.

Soundforge has all kinds of effects available, most of which you hardly need for live recordings. Regardless,  you never want to apply effects to your original or archive copy--only to a separate copy.




« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 11:26:02 AM by earmonger »

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 03:26:03 PM »
I would recommend the gentleman above record at 24/44.1 instead of 24/48. Even with a decent preamp and a good pair of mics, very little is captured above 20k of which 44.1 handles just fine.  44.1 is also more compatible with MP3.  (yes 48k is compatible with mp3 standard, but some players and decoders resampsle to 44.1 anyway...)

Frankly, I really don't see the point in running 48.  My mics barely go above 18k and my playback isn't rated above 20k either.  Even if I can afford a super awesome playback someday, I still won't be able to capture anything above 44.1 with my current equipment anyway.  I do appreciate the headroom (more accurately floor-room) of the 24bit, though I don't think it sounds any better than a 16bit file that had proper levels set...
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 04:19:41 PM »
My favorite site to upload files for downloading is fyels.com . Each file can be up to 11gigs!

Very nice!  Thanks for the heads-up.  Just used it at work to easily distribute a large file to a bunch of colleagues too...

Offline newplanet7

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 08:21:30 PM »
What do you mean by "processed"?
I figured since you had soundforge(which is what I use) you would be adding volume because you ran your levels conservatively(use peak normalization) or possibly some other tweeks to the sound and then saving the processed file to later track out.
It's always a good idea to save the original file if the material means a lot to you.
A great program to split tracks is cdwave, which most of us use.

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Offline Belexes

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2011, 10:21:22 PM »
I always save my raw file and then the file I did my tweaks to.  You never know when you may want to go back to that original file.
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Offline newplanet7

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2011, 07:00:37 AM »
I always save my raw file and then the file I did my tweaks to.  You never know when you may want to go back to that original file.
It's always a good idea to save the original file if the material means a lot to you.
Yep.
MILAB VM-44 Classic~> Silver T's~> Busman PMD660
News From Phish: Will tour as opening act for Widespread Panic for Summer
hahaha never happen, PHiSH is waaaaayyyy better the WSP

They both ain't got nothing on MMW... Money spent wisely if you ask me...


FYI, it is a kick ass recording of a bunch of pretend-a-hippies talking.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2011, 03:29:50 PM »
i burn 4 copies of EVERY SET, including RAW files and files normalized then track 16/24bit files :) DVDs are cheap, so why the FU&% not :)
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Offline ovtaper

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2011, 10:12:35 AM »
im thinking of lining my m10 up with my nak mx100 and my cm-300's....anybody try this yet?
im still unfamiliar with the m10....

Offline audBall

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2011, 11:28:43 AM »
im thinking of lining my m10 up with my nak mx100 and my cm-300's....anybody try this yet?
im still unfamiliar with the m10....

I haven't tried it but it should work just fine.  RCA out of the MX100 to 1/8" into the M10, utilizing the preamps of the nak mixer.  That would be a nice, fairly compact setup.  If the 300s are battery powered, you might be able to run directly into the M10, although I assume running through the pres in the mixer would sound better.
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2011, 01:13:17 PM »
Limiter is in the details submenu of the menu.

Rec level sets input gain.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2014, 07:19:25 AM »
A couple of years too late maybe?! :)

Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 08:17:53 AM »
Ah, I see.  You're reporting a bite in the, er, nether regions.  I'll therefore add the comment that it actually takes not many moments to quickly skim through the menu settings before each outing to ensure that nothing has somehow got mis-set.  A minute spent on that can save various kinds of subsequent grief.

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 04:45:27 PM »
Ah, I see.  You're reporting a bite in the, er, nether regions.  I'll therefore add the comment that it actually takes not many moments to quickly skim through the menu settings before each outing to ensure that nothing has somehow got mis-set.  A minute spent on that can save various kinds of subsequent grief.

Both Limiter and Low Cut Filter have a display indicator on the unit. Bottom right corner of the display. LIM if limiter is engaged and LFC if the Low Cut Filter is engaged. It also tells you if you are recording MP3 or LPCM and what sample rate - bit depth you have selected.
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Just bought myself a Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2014, 10:44:15 AM »
Scoobie, I do check the bit/sample rate read out and the LIM has been on from day one... shoot me... but since low light is the norm when setting up the rig, and I've been living with "set it and leave it" forever, I never thought to recognize if a LCF just to the right of LIM was present.  I do go in and out of the menu to flip from internal to aux memory for formatting and for some reason that is a setting that doesn't play nice.  (Perhaps that's a function of hooking up to USB and moving files, I don't know.)  If there was something at that stage that showed the other menu item status, it might have saved me...  Very good of you to bring that extra alert to my attention ... without editorializing.

I haven't touched LCF since I first configured my M10 three years ago. I only found the LCF flag when I tested after reading these posts. Just seemed like Sony would put an indicator in the display, and they did.

It takes a lot for me to mock a tech for missing something. My day job is running  a repair shop for a large production company. Everyone has the 'duh moments.
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