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Author Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)  (Read 102091 times)

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #120 on: October 09, 2015, 05:54:45 PM »
^ Well if full format is a Tascam thing, then I stand corrected and apologize for my blanket statement.  The 70D is the first Tascam product I've used, so I probably should have looked at the manuals of some other popular units before saying that.

EDIT: I read through a few Tascam manuals and you are indeed correct about both Quick and Full formats being in those recorders.  I know Sony and Zoom don't have this ability, but never knew Tascam did this even with their cheap units.

Now I'm with you - Tascam definitely should have included Erase Format from the get go!  I will go back to my recent posts about this and put a note about it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 08:02:05 PM by voltronic »
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #121 on: October 09, 2015, 09:42:39 PM »
So - the question remains - what the hell is the point of "QUICK FORMAT"???

Useless!!!!

Unless someone is interested in fucking up their recordings - and their card?

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #122 on: October 09, 2015, 09:44:14 PM »
^ Well if full format is a Tascam thing, then I stand corrected and apologize for my blanket statement.  The 70D is the first Tascam product I've used, so I probably should have looked at the manuals of some other popular units before saying that.

EDIT: I read through a few Tascam manuals and you are indeed correct about both Quick and Full formats being in those recorders.  I know Sony and Zoom don't have this ability, but never knew Tascam did this even with their cheap units.

Now I'm with you - Tascam definitely should have included Erase Format from the get go!  I will go back to my recent posts about this and put a note about it.

Not just a note - big screaming red letters saying "DO NOT USE QUICK FORMAT"

Offline ts

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #123 on: October 10, 2015, 08:29:50 AM »
I'm on version 1.01 and all I have is format/execute. No quick or full choice. Also no problems with my PNY 128g.

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #124 on: October 10, 2015, 08:39:39 AM »
^ I have a 64gig PNY in mine with 1.11 firmware and it has worked fine with home testing.  I haven't used it for a show and not super confident with all the issues
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Offline dallman

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #125 on: October 10, 2015, 09:37:48 AM »
So - the question remains - what the hell is the point of "QUICK FORMAT"???

Useless!!!!

Unless someone is interested in fucking up their recordings - and their card?
Perhaps useless in the DR-70D, but that just points to the fact this unit has an issue that no other Tascam deck I am aware of has. I use the quick format almost exclusively. I have reformatted my DR2-d well over 100 times with the quick format and have never had an issue or a hiccup. I would assume the DR70d started with only the quick format because the issues with digi noise or whatever you want to call it was unanticipated wen the deck was rolled out.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #126 on: October 10, 2015, 10:09:34 AM »
So - the question remains - what the hell is the point of "QUICK FORMAT"???

Useless!!!!

Unless someone is interested in fucking up their recordings - and their card?
Perhaps useless in the DR-70D, but that just points to the fact this unit has an issue that no other Tascam deck I am aware of has. I use the quick format almost exclusively. I have reformatted my DR2-d well over 100 times with the quick format and have never had an issue or a hiccup. I would assume the DR70d started with only the quick format because the issues with digi noise or whatever you want to call it was unanticipated wen the deck was rolled out.

Probably true - but I suspect not all these format routines are equal.

I suspect the original "FORMAT" is really a quick format. And perhaps buggy - or not up to the job somehow.

I wonder if these TASCAM recorders firmwares are all created from the same dev kit or code? Or are they all different Firmwares?

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #127 on: October 10, 2015, 10:22:29 AM »
Going Forward

I've discovered that the 16gb SanDisk card I bought in June for my camera is on the approved list.

I plan on:

1. Deleting all the photo files off the new card via windows.
2. Ugrading my DR-70D Firmware to the latest version.
3. Running FULL FORMAT on my new card.
4. Run FULL FORMAT on the old card that gave me trouble - and home test both cards for glitchy-ness. (Bean had the right idea here)

Offline dallman

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #128 on: October 10, 2015, 12:27:07 PM »
So - the question remains - what the hell is the point of "QUICK FORMAT"???

Useless!!!!

Unless someone is interested in fucking up their recordings - and their card?
Perhaps useless in the DR-70D, but that just points to the fact this unit has an issue that no other Tascam deck I am aware of has. I use the quick format almost exclusively. I have reformatted my DR2-d well over 100 times with the quick format and have never had an issue or a hiccup. I would assume the DR70d started with only the quick format because the issues with digi noise or whatever you want to call it was unanticipated wen the deck was rolled out.

Probably true - but I suspect not all these format routines are equal.

I suspect the original "FORMAT" is really a quick format. And perhaps buggy - or not up to the job somehow.

I wonder if these TASCAM recorders firmwares are all created from the same dev kit or code? Or are they all different Firmwares?

I think the difference between full and quick is pretty basic. Quick, just removes header and sector information which then acts like a new card allowing the recorder to send the information to sectors, replacing the information currently residing there in an order that is the least effort for the recorder. Now that is a very unscientific explanation of what is taking place. The Full format is just that where each sector is examined for it's worthiness as well as the labeling information being deleted. This  again is not really a scientific explanation, but hopefully is understandable. I have a lot of Tascam decks, and the way they operate may not be identical, but is more or less the same. I don't think they are reinventing the wheel each time. I do think something went wrong though on the DR70d, and I am at a loss as to why so much trouble only on this deck, and not others like the DR60d which are fairly similar in function.
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Offline yug du nord

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #129 on: October 10, 2015, 01:16:58 PM »
^dallman getting all scientific and stuff ;)........  excellent! 

........all this still makes me wonder why my cheapo class 4 card that I took from my camera seems to work just fine in my 70D.  Seems weird to me....  but I ain't complaining about it, just find it strange given the all the reported issues.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #130 on: October 10, 2015, 02:42:17 PM »
Going Forward

I've discovered that the 16gb SanDisk card I bought in June for my camera is on the approved list.

I plan on:

1. Deleting all the photo files off the new card via windows.
2. Ugrading my DR-70D Firmware to the latest version.
3. Running FULL FORMAT on my new card.
4. Run FULL FORMAT on the old card that gave me trouble - and home test both cards for glitchy-ness. (Bean had the right idea here)

Sounds like a good plan.  You can skip #1 though - #4 will more than take care of it.

BTW, for those still confused about QUICK vs ERASE / FULL format, I'll piggyback on dallman's very good explanation using Life in Rewind's testing plan as an example:

On the old card with photos, doing a QUICK format will remove the filesystem information (think of a "table of contents"), but the data of the photos themselves will still be in place and can be recovered by simple file recovery software.  That data will then just get overwritten as you use the card again.  If the card is a known good card that has recently been checked for errors, that may be all you need.

Doing an ERASE / FULL format on that same card will also remove the filesystem information, but will then erase the data and check for bad sectors.  If bad sectors are found, they're marked so they don't get written to again.  The data previously on the card will not be recoverable by consumer-grade methods.


Possible firmware request: While I was looking through some manuals after sticking my foot in my mouth about other recorders not including a full format, I came across a Card Test function in the Zoom H6 manual.  I wonder how hard it would be to add something like that to the 70D?  It's not going to be as thorough as the tests the people at TEAC Japan are probably doing, but it could save you some time seeing if that old SD card you have lying around is going to have any chance of working, or if you just need to buy one of the approved cards from the list.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #131 on: October 10, 2015, 02:49:06 PM »
I wonder if these utilities could be useful:

http://mikelab.kiev.ua/index_en.php?page=PROGRAMS/chkflsh_en

http://rmprepusb.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-faster-test-for-fake-sd-cards-and-usb.html


70D SD Card Survey update: We are up to 30 responses; still at 11 error reports.  A couple of PNY cards were just entered for the first time, and appear to be OK at least for the user who entered them. 
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #132 on: October 10, 2015, 10:28:45 PM »
...
 update: We are up to 30 responses; still at 11 error reports. ...
how many before it is significant?

Also, you made reference to my "only 11 out of 25" figure from the SD card survey. My point there was that 25 responses is statistically insignificant to start with.  Out of that, only 11 problem reports, all from people using cards not on the manufacturer recommended list is hardly enough evidence to establish this as a widespread issue.  This is out of the many thousands of units sold, and no problems of this type have been reported anywhere else that I'm aware of.  Should those 11 people have customer service work with them to help resolve their issues?  Absolutely, but if that response is "use an approved card", then that shouldn't be viewed as an unsatisfactory response.
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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #133 on: October 11, 2015, 09:16:11 AM »
...
 update: We are up to 30 responses; still at 11 error reports. ...
how many before it is significant?

Also, you made reference to my "only 11 out of 25" figure from the SD card survey. My point there was that 25 responses is statistically insignificant to start with.  Out of that, only 11 problem reports, all from people using cards not on the manufacturer recommended list is hardly enough evidence to establish this as a widespread issue.  This is out of the many thousands of units sold, and no problems of this type have been reported anywhere else that I'm aware of.  Should those 11 people have customer service work with them to help resolve their issues?  Absolutely, but if that response is "use an approved card", then that shouldn't be viewed as an unsatisfactory response.

No survey here could ever represent all the units that have been sold in the industry, so the statement about statistical significance against the thousands of units sold is irrelevant to the survey, not to mention that nobody here can perform any real statistical analysis against all of the units sold anyway so trying to claim any specific statistical analysis conclusions from this survey as significant or insignificant is bogus. 

For example, in my limited experience, a RANDOM sample of 25 is statistically significant to I think a 99 percent confidence factor to a total population of several thousand.  I know this because this is the sample rate the NRC requires for sampling in inspection programs in nuclear plants where the sample size is say several thousand valves in the plant.  Depending on the acceptance criteria being used, in my industry, a single fail rate in the random sample invokes a corrective action plan (usually increasing the inspection sample size and/or doing targeted inspections to get a better understanding of root cause).  Whether this survey constitutes a RANDOM sample is debatable, but that's my point about reaching ANY conclusions about statistical significance or insignificance of the survey results.

When I suggested the survey, I thought there were several things the survey could tell ts.com members a) cards that don't work, so cards to avoid, b) cards that aren't on the official list that people have had success with, so that maybe some alternatives to the tiny 'official' list would be available, and c) some general feedback to give an idea whether the issue is an isolated incident experienced by only a few or a more generic problem.  There's enough there to start to help people with a) and b) and IMHO there's enough information there to reach a reasonable conclusion on c).

Someone that wants to use the survey to help with future decision making can take the information for what it's worth in assessing a), b) or c) (or perhaps some other reasonable conclusion I haven't thought of).  Someone that's intent on arguing against IMHO overwhelming evidence that suggests there's something amiss on the DR70D design, and that Tascam seems to have been putting more effort into CYA than into solving the root cause of the issue, will come up with irrelevant talking points to continue to try to steer people away from the fact that the DR70D has an, as yet, unrevealed design issue that makes it ultra picky about the cards it uses.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 09:41:23 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #134 on: October 11, 2015, 09:45:52 AM »
Tested media list updated today:
http://tascam.com/content/downloads/products/867/dr-70d_tested_media_list_20151006.pdf

Check out this post on JWsound

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/22949-tascam-dr-70/&do=findComment&comment=270154

"This is our first recorder that supports SDXC cards, max 128GB qualified so far."

Yet - it took almost an entire YEAR for Tascam to make good on this...

 

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