Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)

[jbosco]

Rather than engaging in conspiracy theories, has anyone actually acted on Tom's recommendation send their card containing errors to Tascam so they could analyze it?  You can self-congratulate yourselves all you want on your brilliant theories regarding Tascam's possible bait-and-switch, but at the end of the day, don't you want to see the problem fixed?  That's how Sound Devices solved their recent issue with Win 10 - users sent their cards or at least the disk images to SD and Microsoft, and they figured it out.  If in fact this is a problem with the recorder or firmware, why not try to help solve the problem?  When I spoke to him yesterday, he said that only one person had done this.

I contacted them last week and they got back to me over the weekend, they are going to arrange a pickup for my card.  FWIW the card still has the files with the glitches, however my problem was less then a second long, but does appear on both the main recording and the -6dB safety.

They were originally good at replying and they were arranging to pick up the card I even sent them my address however it's been 3 weeks and still nothing.  It's kind of weird, I would have just mailed them the card if they sent me the address as it stands I still have the card.

[voltronic]

^ I agree that where certain settings are located in the menu is not always intuitive.  It just struck me reading this that if you have it set to record in stereo mode, then it should automatically reset that stereo pair to hard panned left and right, and that would avoid accidentally messing up a stereo pair recording. To me, you would only use panning in the recorder for isolated mono tracks like a boom mic or orchestral spot.  I know that professional mobile sound people expect the ability to mix right on the recorder, but generally they're using something much more high end with a dedicated control surface.  With something relatively simple like the 70D, I think it makes more sense to just record your mono iso tracks centered and then adjust panning in post.

Being that the 70D is directed at video / DSLR users, I suppose they included this so you could quickly make a downmix of 4 > 2 channels to send to your camera.

[hoppedup]

I've made a few recordings now and have never formatted the card. No issues thus far. I bought B&H bundle when it was $199 and never updated firmware.

FWIW, my card is 32GB Sandisk Extreme Plus SDSDXS2-032G-X46 : http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/992491-REG/sandisk_sdsdxs2_032g_x46_extreme_sdhc_uhs_1_80mb_s.html

[stevetoney]

^ I agree that where certain settings are located in the menu is not always intuitive.  It just struck me reading this that if you have it set to record in stereo mode, then it should automatically reset that stereo pair to hard panned left and right, and that would avoid accidentally messing up a stereo pair recording. To me, you would only use panning in the recorder for isolated mono tracks like a boom mic or orchestral spot.  I know that professional mobile sound people expect the ability to mix right on the recorder, but generally they're using something much more high end with a dedicated control surface.  With something relatively simple like the 70D, I think it makes more sense to just record your mono iso tracks centered and then adjust panning in post.

Being that the 70D is directed at video / DSLR users, I suppose they included this so you could quickly make a downmix of 4 > 2 channels to send to your camera.

Good point with respect to the second paragraph, but with respect to the first paragraph, I'm not sure we're on the same page.  Maybe we are.

I might be wrong, but I don't think the pan setting has any effect on how tracks are written to the SD card, only how you hear the files when you play them back through the 70D (and probably how they're routed to the headphone when monitoring and, as you point out to the mixdown output).  For example, he said he was getting levels on both channels.  Unless I'm wrong both channels should be written properly to tracks 1 and 2 on his SD card.  That said, when you play the recording back on the DR70D, if the mixer sends both recorded channels to the left channel on playback, then you won't hear anything from one channel since they're both panned left...so they're doubling up on each other on the left channel. 

It's also my understand that the only thing 'stereo' does vs. mono is that it causes the DR70 to write two tracks onto the SD card for each file, where mono writes either two or four separate files, one per track.  If the mixer panning has both channels panned hard left, a stereo file will still play back with one channel having sound and the other silent.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...this is how it works on the Zoom F8 mixer which I've become WAY more familiar with than the DR70D. 

[voltronic]

^ Hmm, I really have no idea, and had not considered the possibility pan settings might only affect the monitor or camera output.  I suppose we'd need to see a block diagram to know for sure.

Which begs the question: have you seen such a diagram for the F8?  Or is there another way you learned about the signal routing?  I haven't ever looked at a manual for one.

I think that a stereo audio track does contain pan data though, it's just usually hard panned so we don't tend to concern ourselves with it.  If I make a m/s recording to my M10, the channels are hard panned because there is no other option.  That's good, because we want those 2 mic feeds separate to manipulate in the matrix later.  If I were to use my 70D and do 2 mono tracks center panned or a stereo track with the individual channels center planned, then both tracks would contain equal amounts of the mid and side mics.  This isn't the end of the world, but would require an extra step of processing to isolate and duplicate the side channel. 

I could be wrong about this though...  But that's what I think is happening.

[dallman]

^ Hmm, I really have no idea, and had not considered the possibility pan settings might only affect the monitor or camera output.  I suppose we'd need to see a block diagram to know for sure.

It would seem to me all you need to do is remove the SD card and put it in a PC and hit play, or upload to soundforge or a similar program and you'll know immediately if the pan only affects output. It makes sense that it would though for a quick mix to a camera without "hurting" the tracks for future adjustments in post.

[voltronic]

^ Hmm, I really have no idea, and had not considered the possibility pan settings might only affect the monitor or camera output.  I suppose we'd need to see a block diagram to know for sure.

It would seem to me all you need to do is remove the SD card and put it in a PC and hit play, or upload to soundforge or a similar program and you'll know immediately if the pan only affects output. It makes sense that it would though for a quick mix to a camera without "hurting" the tracks for future adjustments in post.

Yeah you're right - that would be plenty easy to test that way.  You could even record yourself narrating your set pan adjustments to see if what you're hearing matches what you said you're doing.  I might try this sometime.

[stevetoney]

^ Hmm, I really have no idea, and had not considered the possibility pan settings might only affect the monitor or camera output.  I suppose we'd need to see a block diagram to know for sure.

Which begs the question: have you seen such a diagram for the F8?  Or is there another way you learned about the signal routing?  I haven't ever looked at a manual for one.

I think that a stereo audio track does contain pan data though, it's just usually hard panned so we don't tend to concern ourselves with it.  If I make a m/s recording to my M10, the channels are hard panned because there is no other option.  That's good, because we want those 2 mic feeds separate to manipulate in the matrix later.  If I were to use my 70D and do 2 mono tracks center panned or a stereo track with the individual channels center planned, then both tracks would contain equal amounts of the mid and side mics.  This isn't the end of the world, but would require an extra step of processing to isolate and duplicate the side channel. 

I could be wrong about this though...  But that's what I think is happening.

Your comment about stereo tracks makes sense.  I could take my 70D out and get the answer myself but I think I'll let the guy that asked the question return and go through our responses.  Hopefully he'll come back and tell use what he figured out.

About the F8, yes there's a great diagram in the manual.  It's actually repeated in two locations.  Not that the manual is all that great because it's not the greatest manual (it's not terrible, just leaves alot out), but the diagram is an essential element of understand how the mixer interfaces with the inputs and outputs, and especially at what stages the user can apply things like bass rolloff, limiter, etc.   It's not something you feel like you need to take with you to the venue, but for a new owner it's worth going over a few times in order to help understand pre and post-fader signal routing.  I actually installed a .pdf reader on my iphone and uploaded the manual onto my phone just in case I need to reference the manual or the diagram in the field.  So far, I've pulled it up a couple of times at festivals when I had the time, but at that point I was still learning how to use the unit.

(By the way, stay tuned for my F8 review, probably within the next week or so.  I've been working on it and I think it's coming together quite well.  I've spent way too much time on it, but it's been fun.  It should help people that don't have one to understand how it operates, I think.)

[The Other Chris]

I really appreciate all the suggestions & help offered in the thread. I'm out of town for a few days but will put your suggestions to the test when I'm home and let you know the results.   Thanks guys!  Chris

[johnmuge]

I unfortunately had another problem this weekend on test #2.  At the 1 hour 47 minute point, the recording levels went up by them self and peak with the red lights flashing and it recorded a weird noise.  From that point on every few minutes, there are pops and skips and also a few other 10 second intervals of level peaking.  I spoke to Brian @ Tascam Tech Support who was very nice and knowledgeable about the deck.  He went over all my settings and the card and external power etc. and confirmed something weird was going on and asked me the send the unit back to Tascam for either repair or exchange.  I'm hoping for the best as I like the deck and I want it to work with confidence.  I will report back with the outcome.  I was using a approved card SanDisk #SDSDUP-016G,  V1.11 firmware, and a Generic Power Bank 20,000 mah ultra thin battery.

[The Other Chris]

Thank you guys for the input.  Am I crazy though because on channels 1 & 2 I don't have the "Pan" option,  just "Wide" ranging from 0>100???  Channels 3 & 4 have the Pan option though and I set them to L12/R12.  Plugged into 3 & 4 & even with gain set to High (just for testing) the levels barely registered but I did get separate L & R signals.    What am I missing?? 

(Caveat)  I am apparently an idiot, my apologies.... 
I'm having some problems getting simply 2 channels to record correctly and I need some help.  My set up is simply Nak 300's>DR-70 channels 1 & 2 via XLR's.  I get CH.1 working fine but something's up with CH. 2.  I've tested both mics+batteries+two different sets of cables and can only get sound out of CH.1 EVEN though I show levels on CH.2  On playback 2 is silent.   If anyone's willing to walk me through getting this corrected r.e. Menu>Basic>CH1 settings...CH2 settings or settings overall I'd greatly appreciate it.   PM me if you can help.
Thanks.

You're not an idiot.  Tascam doesn't explain this very well in the manual.  I think your issue is your pan settings, which aren't really panned inputs but panned outputs.  I think what's happening to you is that you're recording both channels 1 and 2 onto your SD card, but when you play them back, if both channels are panned to one side, you'll only get sound out of one side when you play it back.

In the basic menu, toggle to Pan for channel 1 and set it to Left 12.  Then toggle to Pan under channel 2 and set it to Right 12 (it's probably currently set at Left 12).  To avoid this same problem if you ever do four channel recording, do the same thing with Channels 3 and 4.   

By the way, Left 12 is 'left twelve' not Left channels 1 and 2.  The pan setting is a scale from zero to twelve.  Zero means there's no panning and 12 means that channel is panned 100% into the left channel and 0% into the right channel.

[groovon]

Sounds like you have channels 1 & 2 set to M-S. Check menu settings.

Dave

[The Other Chris]

You sir are a great man.  That was it, many thanks for all the help & suggestions guys

Sounds like you have channels 1 & 2 set to M-S. Check menu settings.

Dave

[groovon]

You sir are a great man.  That was it, many thanks for all the help & suggestions guys

Sounds like you have channels 1 & 2 set to M-S. Check menu settings.

Dave

No problemo 

[stevetoney]

Thank you guys for the input.  Am I crazy though because on channels 1 & 2 I don't have the "Pan" option,  just "Wide" ranging from 0>100???  Channels 3 & 4 have the Pan option though and I set them to L12/R12.  Plugged into 3 & 4 & even with gain set to High (just for testing) the levels barely registered but I did get separate L & R signals.    What am I missing?? 

If you aren't getting enough gain on high, go into you INPUT menu and change the setting from 'line' to 'mic'.  Just remember that you might need to change it back before a show because your settings might be too sensitive for a loud show.  For most shows, I've found that having my INPUT menu settings at 'line' and on the BASIC menu, have the gain range set at medium or low (assuming you've implemented the firmware updates that installed the medium range as a menu selection item) that gives me a good level range for recording loud rock shows.