Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)

[stevetoney]

It's worth noting that after I had all of my problems last night I tried formatting in the 70D using both the Quick and Erase methods, and continued to get Write Timeout errors after 10 seconds.  That continued today, and the only thing that fixed it was formatting the card on my computer using the SD Formatter utility.

This is powerful evidence that the TASCAM Format functions are not up to snuff...or the SD Card controller could be buggy. Not sure the latter is fixable.

Anyone know if SD formatter does formats any differently than the standard format utility in the pc accessories menu?

[Life In Rewind]

One other tidbit.

I tried to use my "bad" card to transfer a few photo files from one Windows PC to another.

The files copied to the card - but when they were transferred to the other PC there were quite a few that were corrupted (only half the photo showed up).

Did you reformat the card in your pc prior to doing this?

No - just knew it had some space.

It does suggest that once the card gets messed up in the DR-70D - it may still read and write, but the corruption persists with subsequent use.

I'm going to format this one and see what happens...I'm still on one of the earliest firmwares 1.00.0037 -- so I only have "quick" format on the Tascam.

[stevetoney]

One other tidbit.

I tried to use my "bad" card to transfer a few photo files from one Windows PC to another.

The files copied to the card - but when they were transferred to the other PC there were quite a few that were corrupted (only half the photo showed up).

Did you reformat the card in your pc prior to doing this?

No - just knew it had some space.

It does suggest that once the card gets messed up in the DR-70D - it may still read and write, but the corruption persists with subsequent use.

I'm going to format this one and see what happens...I'm still on one of the earliest firmwares 1.00.0037 -- so I only have "quick" format on the Tascam.

Perfect...I was hoping that would be your response.  Could I suggest a couple of things?  First do a format in your DR70D and then repeat what you did last night with transferring photo's to see if the same issue persists, gets better, or gets worse.  Note what happens but if you still have issues after the format in the DR70D, then format your card in your PC and repeat and see if you get a different result.

[Life In Rewind]

One other tidbit.

I tried to use my "bad" card to transfer a few photo files from one Windows PC to another.

The files copied to the card - but when they were transferred to the other PC there were quite a few that were corrupted (only half the photo showed up).

Did you reformat the card in your pc prior to doing this?

No - just knew it had some space.

It does suggest that once the card gets messed up in the DR-70D - it may still read and write, but the corruption persists with subsequent use.

I'm going to format this one and see what happens...I'm still on one of the earliest firmwares 1.00.0037 -- so I only have "quick" format on the Tascam.

Perfect...I was hoping that would be your response.  Could I suggest a couple of things?  First do a format in your DR70D and then repeat what you did last night with transferring photo's to see if the same issue persists, gets better, or gets worse.  Note what happens but if you still have issues after the format in the DR70D, then format your card in your PC and repeat and see if you get a different result.

Exactly my thinking...try to do this as incrementally and SOP as possible...before I try a Windows reformat.

[Life In Rewind]

I'm wondering when the MUSIC and UTILITY folders get written?

Is that part of the format function?

Obviously those aren't going to be created when you format in a computer.

Does the system write those if they don't exist?

[Life In Rewind]

Ok - my "bad" card - I reformatted using the old firmware format - and transferred some photo files from one PC to another - they are fine, clean transfer.

I'll run it in the recorder next for a bit...try a few different rates.

[Claus]

With all these formatting issues, I am wondering if the following would have any benefit:

If you have a card that has a problem, would erasing the card on an old-fashioned tape eraser before re-formatting in the 70 solve subsequent re-format issues?

My card (a SanDisk) works fine in my 70; it is from "the list", but I recall some years back I had a regular SD card that wouldn't show up in my Nikon after it had worked for a while.
I nuked it with my tape bulk eraser, then re-formatted it in my camera, and bingo: all was well.

Maybe a bit of "brute force" could help here too. Just an idea.

Claus.

[Life In Rewind]

With all these formatting issues, I am wondering if the following would have any benefit:

If you have a card that has a problem, would erasing the card on an old-fashioned tape eraser before re-formatting in the 70 solve subsequent re-format issues?

My card (a SanDisk) works fine in my 70; it is from "the list", but I recall some years back I had a regular SD card that wouldn't show up in my Nikon after it had worked for a while.
I nuked it with my tape bulk eraser, then re-formatted it in my camera, and bingo: all was well.

Maybe a bit of "brute force" could help here too. Just an idea.

Claus.

Probably placebo effect - I don't think magnetics are in play in SD media - not sure it would have any effect at all - certainly nothing predictable or desirable.

[voltronic]

It's worth noting that after I had all of my problems last night I tried formatting in the 70D using both the Quick and Erase methods, and continued to get Write Timeout errors after 10 seconds.  That continued today, and the only thing that fixed it was formatting the card on my computer using the SD Formatter utility.

This is powerful evidence that the TASCAM Format functions are not up to snuff...or the SD Card controller could be buggy. Not sure the latter is fixable.

If this were true, then I should be having similar problems with all of my SD cards, and I'm not.  It only happened on this one SanDisk, and so far I can't get out to repeat the errors again after formatting in my PC. 

Remember that there's a controller chip on the SD card itself, so that's a possible factor as well.

[voltronic]

Regarding the drift with no apparent errors...

Sounds like just another version of "fail" - just not to the point where the PCM decode fails completely (and makes noise/static). Possibly just another manifestation of the same problem.

Also - I know you want to fill the card for the tests...but I think you should start and stop a few times - and power cycle the deck...things we all do when using the deck...

The one thing we almost never do - is fill the card...and it certainly doesn't sound like there is any correlation in reports so far. I'd get the card -close- to full - like a normal use pattern.

Voltronic - are you certain all your errors are happening real time? Myself and perhaps one other member have had previously good files get corrupted once a card starts failing... with the same problems the subsequent files have.

I mention that only because I'm not sure we know if these errors are related to real-time processes - or something wrong with shut down...boot - or other action - that corrupts the files.

I actually did start / stop / power cycle a few times for some shorter tracks, and then let it run continuously to fill the remainder of the card.  The idea behind filling the card is to make it write to all the available space to possibly reveal any faulty areas.  I realize no one really records until the card is completely full, at least not on purpose.

Regarding "real time": the Write Timeout definitely was a real time thing.  The other errors or glitches I first heard playing the file back on the 70D, and then verified on my PC after transfer.  I can't be 100% positive, but I'm reasonably sure what I experienced the other night was all real-time.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

EDIT: The numeric level readout for highest max level now changes in 1 dB steps; previously I believe it changed in 2 dB steps.  Can someone who hasn't updated to 1.12 yet please verify this? 

They could have done so much more to improve the metering, but I'll take any progress.  Also, keep in mind that the gain still adjusts in 2 dB steps.

That's too bad. It would be nice to have 1 dB steps and to also have a reliable readout of the mic input gain settings so that we could match channels.

[Life In Rewind]

OK - I just ran off a few 45 minute tracks on a few different settings - using my bad card, freshly formatted in the DR-70D


1st - 24/48 Stereo EXT 1/2 - 1 spike

2nd - 24/96 Stereo EXT 1/2 - 5 spikes

Most interesting is the 3rd try:

4 channels EXT 1/2 and 3/4 MIC (external mic) - Mono @ 24/96

Channel 1: No Spikes
Channel 2: No Spikes
Channel 3: 3 Spikes
Channel 4: 1 Spike

The spike in Track 4 does not coincide with any in Track 3.

Next I guess I try to reformat this in Windows.

[voltronic]

OK - I just ran off a few 45 minute tracks on a few different settings - using my bad card, freshly formatted in the DR-70D


1st - 24/48 Stereo EXT 1/2 - 1 spike

2nd - 24/96 Stereo EXT 1/2 - 5 spikes

Most interesting is the 3rd try:

4 channels EXT 1/2 and 3/4 MIC (external mic) - Mono @ 24/96

Channel 1: No Spikes
Channel 2: No Spikes
Channel 3: 3 Spikes
Channel 4: 1 Spike

The spike in Track 4 does not coincide with any in Track 3.

Next I guess I try to reformat this in Windows.

That is interesting.  When you format in windows, you should use the official SD Formatter.  Don't use the built-in Windows format function for SD cards, especially of you have a larger card.  Windows won't let you format FAT32 for anything larger than 32GB, and even if your card is smaller, the official SD tool dues a better job.  And then you'll still have to Quick Format in the 70D for it to set up it's config file and folder structure.

[voltronic]

EDIT: The numeric level readout for highest max level now changes in 1 dB steps; previously I believe it changed in 2 dB steps.  Can someone who hasn't updated to 1.12 yet please verify this? 

They could have done so much more to improve the metering, but I'll take any progress.  Also, keep in mind that the gain still adjusts in 2 dB steps.

That's too bad. It would be nice to have 1 dB steps and to also have a reliable readout of the mic input gain settings so that we could match channels.

Agreed, but until they have per-channel metering for gain setting and input level, I would prefer they leave the gain stepped at 2 dB since it actually helps to match channels.  If I'm setting levels using ambient noise in a church or auditorium, I can see right away if I overshoot one of the channels.

If they could introduce ganged channels, then that would be a situation where it would be helpful to have 1 dB steps.  Actually I found out through testing a few months back that when you move a gain knob, the gain is moving in 0.5 dB steps but then it settles into the nearest 2 dB when you stop moving it.  This was confirmed by the Tascam rep who used to hang out here.  So in theory, they could make this unit adjust gain to 0.5 dB steps but as I said I don't want that unless they introduce better metering and/or ganged channels first.

I suppose it would be nice to have that level of gain resolution anyway, but I think it would be too fiddly with these knobs since they are tiny continuous encoders.  My wish list for MKII would include making all of the gain knobs endless stepped/detented encoders like the Data knob.  I've always been a big fan of stepped pots though, and really would like them on all of my audio gear.  I use a 40 year old Technics receiver in my living room system and the stepped attenuator volume control is just so satisfying to use.

[Life In Rewind]

That is interesting.  When you format in windows, you should use the official SD Formatter.  Don't use the built-in Windows format function for SD cards, especially of you have a larger card.

Can you link to this? - I see something like it...not sure what's "official" about it..