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Author Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)  (Read 101125 times)

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #345 on: November 30, 2015, 07:05:27 PM »
I want to try this deck, but these card issues are troubling. Are people having issues even with the approved cards?

I'll try to give you an objective response.

It's tough to answer your question with a high level of confidence about where this is going but the trend over the last month or two is positive.  In general, I think people are having success using approved cards; however, there has been some limited evidence that 'the issue' has revealed itself on at least one of the card types on the approved list (two reported events from different users...same card).  In one of those instances, a reformat of the card using an outside SD card formatter has cleared the issue and the user reports no problems using that same card in the unit since.  In the other, it's not clear if the problem was cleared up or if the user has used the suspect card in the unit.

As an owner of a unit that has been problematic in the past, I also own this same card.  I've used the unit twice with the card and it's performed well over approximately eight hours of use.  I have other recorders available to me, so unfortunately my confidence level using this deck still has a ways to go before I would consider pulling it out as anything but a backup, but that's because I have other units available to me that I have more confidence in.  Obviously, the more people report success and the more successes I experience, the more my confidence grows, but the two instances of glitchy experiences with approved cards continues to infect my conscience.

A month or two ago I wouldn't have recommended this unit, but now that it seems the number of reported incidents has calmed down and the negative trend seems to have turned, and people are having success using a low priced approved card (16gb Sandisk is available for around $15), I'd say to go ahead and buy.  The DR70D is a great value at $200. 

That said, if you have an absolutely mission critical recording, you might want employ some redundancy until you're absolutely sure your DR70D/card combo will perform for you.

Since its been less than 2 months since there was an actual list of "approved" cards - I think were still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I used my unapproved card for months, maybe 50 shows before I started having problems.

I've only done about 2-3 shows with the approved card. So - too early to tell.

I was being sarcastic about blaming the TASCAM for destroying my card - I shouldn't have used it at all...I had already proven to myself that the corruption persisted following full format in windows.

But - the idea that the DR-70D is ruining cards isn't out of the realm of possibility...we shall see.

Definitely a valid point.  I also used an unapproved card for awhile before problems revealed.  I've been doing full formatting outside of the DR70D since.  My gut feeling, unproven in any way but discussed extensively, is that the quick format routine in the DR70D is buggy.

That's a very interesting theory, but if it were true I would expect it would negatively impact all cards formatted in the unit.
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stevetoney

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #346 on: November 30, 2015, 07:45:15 PM »
My gut feeling, unproven in any way but discussed extensively, is that the quick format routine in the DR70D is buggy.

That's a very interesting theory, but if it were true I would expect it would negatively impact all cards formatted in the unit.

You'd think.  But part of the discussion has been about the possibility of different production runs, potential for poor quality control because it's a low cost unit, etc.  I don't think those debates need to be rehashed and I'm not claiming that the gut feeling I expressed above is the source and solution.  At the same time, I want to try and replicate the issues I experienced with an unapproved card that was problematic and the first place I'm going to focus is the quick format.  If I can find some kind of repeatable action that reproduces the glitches onto that specific card, I can get to the bottom of what's causing the problem...and perhaps determine if the problem is sourced from my unit or from the card.  Don't know exactly how I'm going to do that right now though...maybe I'll 'stress' the card to simulate that I'd used it over and over by doing 20 or 30 quick formats while recording a few minutes between formats.  Don't really know and I have no idea if or when I'll even do this.

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #347 on: November 30, 2015, 07:54:19 PM »
I want to try this deck, but these card issues are troubling. Are people having issues even with the approved cards?

I'll try to give you an objective response.

It's tough to answer your question with a high level of confidence about where this is going but the trend over the last month or two is positive.  In general, I think people are having success using approved cards; however, there has been some limited evidence that 'the issue' has revealed itself on at least one of the card types on the approved list (two reported events from different users...same card).  In one of those instances, a reformat of the card using an outside SD card formatter has cleared the issue and the user reports no problems using that same card in the unit since.  In the other, it's not clear if the problem was cleared up or if the user has used the suspect card in the unit.

As an owner of a unit that has been problematic in the past, I also own this same card.  I've used the unit twice with the card and it's performed well over approximately eight hours of use.  I have other recorders available to me, so unfortunately my confidence level using this deck still has a ways to go before I would consider pulling it out as anything but a backup, but that's because I have other units available to me that I have more confidence in.  Obviously, the more people report success and the more successes I experience, the more my confidence grows, but the two instances of glitchy experiences with approved cards continues to infect my conscience.

A month or two ago I wouldn't have recommended this unit, but now that it seems the number of reported incidents has calmed down and the negative trend seems to have turned, and people are having success using a low priced approved card (16gb Sandisk is available for around $15), I'd say to go ahead and buy.  The DR70D is a great value at $200. 

That said, if you have an absolutely mission critical recording, you might want employ some redundancy until you're absolutely sure your DR70D/card combo will perform for you.

Since its been less than 2 months since there was an actual list of "approved" cards - I think were still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I used my unapproved card for months, maybe 50 shows before I started having problems.

I've only done about 2-3 shows with the approved card. So - too early to tell.

I was being sarcastic about blaming the TASCAM for destroying my card - I shouldn't have used it at all...I had already proven to myself that the corruption persisted following full format in windows.

But - the idea that the DR-70D is ruining cards isn't out of the realm of possibility...we shall see.

Definitely a valid point.  I also used an unapproved card for awhile before problems revealed.  I've been doing full formatting outside of the DR70D since.  My gut feeling, unproven in any way but discussed extensively, is that the quick format routine in the DR70D is buggy.

That's a very interesting theory, but if it were true I would expect it would negatively impact all cards formatted in the unit.

I guess everyone with a failed card will have report on attempts to use it in other devices...

And I guess that would be the key...what is different about the "approved cards"? (should they prove to be reliable)

I haven't been able to digest the testing a few pages back...was there a trend there?

I was thinking buggy quick format too - but the problem persisted, and didn't seem to be linked to a firmware version.(just going by the anecdotes here) -

Maybe some problem or defect in the card reader hardware itself...that may NOT be addressable or suppressible in a firmware change.

Could some other design defect be causing glitches?

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #348 on: November 30, 2015, 08:10:09 PM »

I guess everyone with a failed card will have report on attempts to use it in other devices...


Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact sequence I used for reformatting, but the problematic card to my DR70D works fine in other devices.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #349 on: November 30, 2015, 08:15:33 PM »
My gut feeling, unproven in any way but discussed extensively, is that the quick format routine in the DR70D is buggy.

That's a very interesting theory, but if it were true I would expect it would negatively impact all cards formatted in the unit.

You'd think.  But part of the discussion has been about the possibility of different production runs, potential for poor quality control because it's a low cost unit, etc.  I don't think those debates need to be rehashed and I'm not claiming that the gut feeling I expressed above is the source and solution.  At the same time, I want to try and replicate the issues I experienced with an unapproved card that was problematic and the first place I'm going to focus is the quick format.  If I can find some kind of repeatable action that reproduces the glitches onto that specific card, I can get to the bottom of what's causing the problem...and perhaps determine if the problem is sourced from my unit or from the card.  Don't know exactly how I'm going to do that right now though...maybe I'll 'stress' the card to simulate that I'd used it over and over by doing 20 or 30 quick formats while recording a few minutes between formats.  Don't really know and I have no idea if or when I'll even do this.

The idea of possible QC issues in this price range certainly is possible.  It happened to me with my first Sony M10.  The built-in mics were almost 3dB mismatched, and Sony service determined it was manufacturing defect and sent me a replacement.

Your "stress" test sounds good.  I imagine you'd to this at 4 channels, 24/96 to tax the media to its fullest. 

If you're testing the reliability of the media itself and not necessarily the format routine in isolation, I would propose a similar test again, but run 4 channels at 24/96 and fill the card completely.  When storage media goes bad, it often starts in specific places which could be anywhere across the entire writable area, and not just the "beginning".  By "going bad" I am talking about bad sectors, but your test could throw up some filesystem corruption (caused by a variety of factors) which is the problem I experienced.  If the 70D is somehow causing otherwise good cards to have problems, I think it would be filesystem corruption; not bad sectors which are a much more severe issue.

Your test sounds good for expediency and makes sense for testing the reliability of the format routines, but keep in mind that you'll be putting much more wear onto the "beginning" of the writable area that way.  That would of course make a borderline bad sector on that portion of the card more likely to be hit, but one later on less likely to be "seen" by the recorder.  Since quick formats don't look for bad sectors, writing to a previously-unknown (and thus unmarked) bad sector will definitely cause an error in the recording.  The natural thing to do after this happens is to run a full format, and your formatting program should tell you (but it doesn't always) if it found bad sectors.  Otherwise
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Offline morst

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #350 on: November 30, 2015, 11:06:34 PM »
I guess everyone with a failed card will have report on attempts to use it in other devices...

Count me out. If the factory can't be bothered to fix / debug / maintain their product line, I'm not going to pick up their slack, I have a couple Sonys...
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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #351 on: December 01, 2015, 04:52:50 AM »
Can't let this thread end without adding, again......


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Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #352 on: December 01, 2015, 08:08:41 AM »
I want to try this deck, but these card issues are troubling. Are people having issues even with the approved cards?

I'll try to give you an objective response.

It's tough to answer your question with a high level of confidence about where this is going but the trend over the last month or two is positive.  In general, I think people are having success using approved cards; however, there has been some limited evidence that 'the issue' has revealed itself on at least one of the card types on the approved list (two reported events from different users...same card).  In one of those instances, a reformat of the card using an outside SD card formatter has cleared the issue and the user reports no problems using that same card in the unit since.  In the other, it's not clear if the problem was cleared up or if the user has used the suspect card in the unit.

As an owner of a unit that has been problematic in the past, I also own this same card.  I've used the unit twice with the card and it's performed well over approximately eight hours of use.  I have other recorders available to me, so unfortunately my confidence level using this deck still has a ways to go before I would consider pulling it out as anything but a backup, but that's because I have other units available to me that I have more confidence in.  Obviously, the more people report success and the more successes I experience, the more my confidence grows, but the two instances of glitchy experiences with approved cards continues to infect my conscience.

A month or two ago I wouldn't have recommended this unit, but now that it seems the number of reported incidents has calmed down and the negative trend seems to have turned, and people are having success using a low priced approved card (16gb Sandisk is available for around $15), I'd say to go ahead and buy.  The DR70D is a great value at $200. 

That said, if you have an absolutely mission critical recording, you might want employ some redundancy until you're absolutely sure your DR70D/card combo will perform for you.

Since its been less than 2 months since there was an actual list of "approved" cards - I think were still waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I used my unapproved card for months, maybe 50 shows before I started having problems.

I've only done about 2-3 shows with the approved card. So - too early to tell.

I was being sarcastic about blaming the TASCAM for destroying my card - I shouldn't have used it at all...I had already proven to myself that the corruption persisted following full format in windows.

But - the idea that the DR-70D is ruining cards isn't out of the realm of possibility...we shall see.

Definitely a valid point.  I also used an unapproved card for awhile before problems revealed.  I've been doing full formatting outside of the DR70D since.  My gut feeling, unproven in any way but discussed extensively, is that the quick format routine in the DR70D is buggy.

That's a very interesting theory, but if it were true I would expect it would negatively impact all cards formatted in the unit.

Could some other design defect be causing glitches?


Did anyone send in a SD card that had problems to tascam?
Someone said they were going to do it....if they did...did they hear anything back from Tascam?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:14:41 AM by phil_er_up »
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Offline Craig T

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #353 on: December 01, 2015, 09:36:10 AM »
I've never used quick format and I've never had a problem.  I've only used unapproved cards.  I recently purchased an approved card, but haven't used it yet.  Based on all the negative reports, I've gone back to using my M10.
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #354 on: December 01, 2015, 09:37:24 AM »
I think stress testing cards is ok - but - that assumes it's the cards themselves - lets not neglect all sorts of other actions that could be causing this.

We need to look at the anomalies...like running out of USB power with no AAs in the sled...or running out of USB power with weak batteries in the sled.

Inserting and ejecting...power cycle, sleep...

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #355 on: December 01, 2015, 09:40:17 AM »
Did anyone else notice that the new DR-701D has card issues right out of the chute...?

Check the firmware update notes - "Fixed a problem where some SD cards did not report the correct size after ERASE FORMAT."

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #356 on: December 01, 2015, 10:34:24 AM »
I think stress testing cards is ok - but - that assumes it's the cards themselves - lets not neglect all sorts of other actions that could be causing this.

We need to look at the anomalies...like running out of USB power with no AAs in the sled...or running out of USB power with weak batteries in the sled.

Inserting and ejecting...power cycle, sleep...

I agree with your comment about looking for anomalies, but I just wanted to respond that any testing I'd do will not be assuming that the issue is the card itself.  In fact, I've never felt that the issue with my unit is solely a card issue.  But obviously, the data glitching on the card is where the evidence reveals itself and since, as you pointed out, it has been difficult to find any type of repeating pattern, yet the issue might reveal itself with time, the idea was to simulate the advancement of time by putting the unit through a series of cycles, noting what specifically I did between cycles, and then if glitches reveal, focusing on those actions that were performed immediately prior by going backwards to see if the same actions can reproduce the glitches.  So I suppose the 'stress test' I'm thinking of would be more on the unit as a whole than just the card.

Anyway, this is my thoughts.  Frankly, I have doubts that I'll ever do this though becuase it would take a ton of time and patience.  I have time, but little patience when it comes to this unit.  I've pretty much moved on from my DR70D and the only reason I'd do the above it to try to salvage some value out of it to sell it.  But it seems to work fine now with the card I have so if I ever decide to sell, I might just either let time figure out what this issue is or sell the thing as an el cheapo.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 10:38:16 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #357 on: December 01, 2015, 10:52:47 AM »
I think stress testing cards is ok - but - that assumes it's the cards themselves - lets not neglect all sorts of other actions that could be causing this.

We need to look at the anomalies...like running out of USB power with no AAs in the sled...or running out of USB power with weak batteries in the sled.

Inserting and ejecting...power cycle, sleep...

I agree with your comment about looking for anomalies, but I just wanted to respond that any testing I'd do will not be assuming that the issue is the card itself.  In fact, I've never felt that the issue with my unit is solely a card issue.  But obviously, the data glitching on the card is where the evidence reveals itself and since, as you pointed out, it has been difficult to find any type of repeating pattern, yet the issue might reveal itself with time, the idea was to simulate the advancement of time by putting the unit through a series of cycles, noting what specifically I did between cycles, and then if glitches reveal, focusing on those actions that were performed immediately prior by going backwards to see if the same actions can reproduce the glitches.  So I suppose the 'stress test' I'm thinking of would be more on the unit as a whole than just the card.

Anyway, this is my thoughts.  Frankly, I have doubts that I'll ever do this though becuase it would take a ton of time and patience.  I have time, but little patience when it comes to this unit.  I've pretty much moved on from my DR70D and the only reason I'd do the above it to try to salvage some value out of it to sell it.  But it seems to work fine now with the card I have so if I ever decide to sell, I might just either let time figure out what this issue is or sell the thing as an el cheapo.

I think something approaching a "normal taper usage pattern" would be ok. We were not trying to "stress" the cards when they failed.

Like - (unless its your normal setting) forget about running 4 channels at 24/96 to "tax the media to the fullest" - that assumes there is something wrong with the media.

What if the problem only occurs at 24/48...and has nothing to do with cards?

I think there can be something wrong with the device...and only certain on-card tech can protect it from the glitch...thus the "approved cards."

I looked around (with no luck) for someone who had gone out of their way to make SD cards fail - most of these were about destroying data...not making the card fail.

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #358 on: December 01, 2015, 11:01:28 AM »
I also won't be doing any testing...I have to keep using the thing...Its all I have now.

But I now have an approved card - (no updates to that list since October.)

So - like I said -waiting for the other shoe to drop.

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Re: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)
« Reply #359 on: December 01, 2015, 12:38:03 PM »
I had intermittent issues with a card not on the approved list.

Since buying an approved card, I've had no issues.

Has anyone else had problems with cards from the approved list?

I'm still upset that the rep who had been frequenting these parts was run out of town.
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