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Author Topic: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)  (Read 8636 times)

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Offline chinariderstl

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 10:18:37 PM »
^ There's a (much) cheaper Manfrotto bar that is equally sturdy, a bit less sexy profile. $80 vs. $300 or whatever. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503258-REG/Manfrotto_154B_154_Triple_Microphone_Holder.html

Nice, I might pick that up as well.

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 10:25:49 PM »
^  Why not support a TS builder for that price?  I bought one of the 24" bars with 4 knobs for about that, and it's all I use now.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2015, 10:53:10 PM »
I'll put my set of Avenson ST0-2 omni's up against any other omni...and for $550 for a Stereo Pair...pocket the cash I saved vs a pair of DPA's

http://avensonaudio.com/sto2/

Note the scale on this graph...ONE db



I'm sure they're great mics, but that graph doesn't impress me without seeing a polar response.  I can't believe they don't have a polar chart on their site - that's pretty basic info.  Without that, we have no idea how it performs off-axis and thus how "omni" it is which is pretty important to know.  For instance, since your avatar indicates you're a MG guy, take a look at the polar charts for the M296 and you'll see they're only really omni until somewhere between 2 kHz and 4 kHz.

In contrast, look at the measurements for the Line Audio OM1 (under $300 / pair) which also have very flat frequency response (if that's what you want) and the polar chart shows that they don't start to become directional until somewhere between 8 kHz and 16 kHz.

Neither the Avenson nor the Line Audio will be the best choice if you're pretty far away though, as they are both free-field omnis.

This is a big reason why I want the 4060s, as they are diffuse-field, with a HF boost that will help compensate for the losses over distance, and you can remove the grids entirely for close work like many folks on GS do for close orchestra recording.  Also, check out the near-perfect polar response.  Jörg Wuttke formerly of Schoeps calls the 4060 a "perfect" omni mic, and I believe he's referring to that polar response.

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2015, 09:50:56 AM »

The best omni recordings I made were with Franken Nak 300s with the omni caps. I used them on stage when I was working for a band doing FOH and making a SBD+mics matrix recording every show. The Nak omnis upclose like that were incredible especially considering that I paid around 300 bucks for them. I don't think that they would perform well farther back but honestly I've kind of lost my taste for omni recordings unless I'm really close to the source.

This summer I did a few omni recordings outside with my ADK TLs. The omni alone from a distance needed EQ (not unusual) but when I used them in conjunction with my Berliner CM33s and mixed them 1/1 the recordings turned out spectacular. The low end bloom and solid thump from the omni mixed with the bright top end of the CM33 was a perfect match. I ran the ADK omnis AB split about 20 cm and the Berliners 90 degrees with the caps resting on top of the ADK windscreens. Came out perfectly phase coherent and really sharp but still with a good stereo soundstage.

UM with mixed pairs
https://archive.org/details/um2015-06-27.ADK.CM33.flac

Greensky Bluegrass with ADK omnis (EQd) small festival so pretty close to stage
https://archive.org/details/gb2015-06-12.ADKomni.blueox.flac

My buddy Tyler used to run those Avenson STOs. They were solid. Good price too. High on the self noise figures but unless you are recording quiet ensembles not a problem.

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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2015, 10:47:42 AM »
I really like the line audio om1. It doesn't play nice with 661 p48 but I'll put up with thst for 300 a pair. I need to run them more but my early impression is thst they punch far above their weight. And if you get a pair of chopped xlrs they are very lo pro, only about an inch and a half long.
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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2015, 11:20:25 AM »
Voltronic...

Regarding Polar patterns for the STO-2....pinpoint omni's are not directional as a rule...I looked into using them for a Healy Omni Pair but he was using LD omni's and benefited from their directional polar pattern...I"ll try to find a Polar Pattern for the STO-2 capsule which was the Panasonic WM-60AY (my pair's SN is in the Sixties I'm certain mine have those caps)....note that cap is no longer available...but there are compatible replacements that are used in the current STO-2.

Why would you want a ruler flat response...well if you want to apply a different response curve...the ruler flat response is beneficial because you get exactly the curve you input...not some other curve that is influenced by a uneven curve of a microphone that isn't flat. Never got into the habit of applying curves with them...I've rolled off some bass in the past...but I find they sound exactly like the room sounded when I was recording.

I've heard great things about the Gefell omni's but if I wanted them I'd be getting the M27 to go with the SM2000. I don't think I want to spend $1500 for them though.

Hmmm....Panasonic doesn't even give a Polar Pattern on their data sheet

http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/datasheetsmain/SFDatasheet-1/sf-00039180.pdf

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2015, 11:25:27 AM »
Here's the best comparison of DPA mics you're ever going to hear.  I recommend you download the FLACs and give a good listen on monitors and headphones:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/da/MikrofonUniversitet/StereoTechniques/stereo-recordings.aspx

For me, the ranking is clear:
1. 4006
2. 4060 (but not by much)
3. 2006

This page is what totally sold me on wanting a pair of 4060s.

Very cool resource, thanks for posting that link! I wish there was a decca-tree recording made with 4060 as well as 4006.  IMO the change of configuration with the addition of the third mic is a significantly larger difference than the move from 4060 to the 4006 in the A-B array.  Considering that one can purchase four 4060 for the cost of a pair of 2006, and probably 7 for the cost of a pair of 4006, I think that's a pretty significant indication of how choice of microphone configuration is more important (after placement), especially if one is willing to use more than two channels to record, and especially if one is not averse to using EQ.



After listening and comparing all the samples, I did two things which some of you may find interesting to try yourselves:

1) I opened each of the omni files in a separate instances of the player (I was using VLC) and used the built-in graphic EQ to adjust each one to whatever sounded most-pleasing.  I didn't do this in reference of one to another, trying to make each sound identical, but instead just made each sound "as right as possible" on its own in isolation.  At that point I listened and compared them to each other again, switching back and forth.  Then made some minor corrections to make them as similar as possible. Pretty interesting.

2) I tried a few simple "live combinations", by playing one of the omni files and one of the caridoid files simultaneously.  Thankfully that wasn't difficult to do as all these samples were recorded concurrently, and have exactly the same start point and length.  It would be simple to do so by playing them back from a multi-channel audio editor, but I did so using the same VLC players as before by starting one, then starting the other, then going back the first (which was playing slightly ahead in time) and making a couple rapid double-clicks of the pause/play button until the two played in sync without audible delay or phasing.  I used to synchronize playback from two R-09s this way years ago before I owned any digital multichannel recorders, and can usually sync them up in just a few seconds.  With the files replay looped, two of them remained in perfect sync for about an hour, while I was out finishing some night gardening in back.

That was very interesting and confirmed my experience with regards to choice of configuration for a cardioid pair used in the center between spaced omnis.  I've posted pedantically about why I think an X/Y pair of cardioids is a better choice for combination with spaced omnis than a near-spaced pair, so I won't go into all that here.  I will say that the 4011s in ORTF didn't sound bad combined with the omnis, but the addition of the omnis (or conversely addition of the ORFT to the omis) didn't change my impression of either listened to in isolation as radically as the combination of the X/Y 4011's and omnis.  With X/Y and omnis in combination, I hear a more significant difference - to my ear is a larger improvement over either alone.  Both seem to be contributing what they do best, without trying to do the job of the other or getting in each other's way.   

I then opened a third instance to compare the 4006 deca tree sample against the combined 4006 spaced pair + X/Y 4011 and prefer the imaging sharpness and drier center image clarity of the later.  I wish there was a photo of the mic setup for these recordings, as the position relationship between the omnis and ORTF and X/Y pairs is not indicated - we don't know if the cards were positioned centrally between the omni pair (probably were) or if they were placed in the same plane rather than positioned forward of the omnis like a decca tree, or behind them as they probably would be when used as pairs alone placed optimally with regards to critical distance (however, in this test such fore/back spacing variability is probably of less significance than the minor differences in timing between the two files introduced by my quick, 'good-enough', sync of them).

I don't care for X/Y much on it's own, as it's pretty boring stereo, and if I was only running a pair of cardioids I'd choose ORTF instead, but X/Y works very well in combination with wide omnis, and I'd choose that (or just a single center mic*) over ORTF + omnis. 

*I'd also love to hear another decca tree sample which substitutes a single forward facing 4011 as the center mic instead of a 4006.  My guess is that I'd prefer that over the 3-omni version, although perhaps not as much as the omnis + X/Y version.  (If using an editor for playback, one could easily sum the X/Y pair to simulate a single forward-facing center mic, although that would produces a virtual subcardioid rather than a cardioid) However, I refuse to commit to that personal preference until I can actually make such a listening assessment myself.  I plan to do just this kind of experimentation using one of the Naiant figure-8s I've just received, coincidently mounted with a single cardioid center, in combination with spaced omnis.  I can then directly compare the omnis and single center cardioid, with the omnis and same center cardioid expanded into a M/S pair, with the ability to dial in various amounts of center stereo width by introducing more or less 8.  A M/S center is equivalent to an X/Y cardioid center with regards to phase of the center pair and "recording and combination of signals from 3 separate points in space rather than 4" in the mixdown to 2-channel stereo.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 12:14:25 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline hoppedup

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2015, 11:27:55 AM »
I know it's a bit below your budget, but some of the best recordings I ever made were with CA-14 omnis split three feet on a DIY bar.

Outdoors 90 feet from stacks: https://archive.org/details/hayescarll2012-06-16.CA-14.flac24  (Hayes' voice is toast but recording is clear as a bell)

Outdoors Stage lip: https://archive.org/details/dqb2012-06-24.CA-14omni.flac24

I sold VM-44 Links with card & omni caps this year. I will own the VM-44 cards again. I sold the omni caps for my AKG Blue Lines as well. Because I know I can get a quality pull with the CA-14s. That's my $.02. Then again, I just fly mics and press record. I've always run the CA-14s vertical, never pointing at anything but the sky.
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« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 11:43:16 AM by Hypnocracy »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2015, 08:39:30 AM »

I don't care for X/Y much on it's own, as it's pretty boring stereo, and if I was only running a pair of cardioids I'd choose ORTF instead, but X/Y works very well in combination with wide omnis, and I'd choose that (or just a single center mic*) over ORTF + omnis. 


I just put all of the sample files in Reaper and tried various combinations, and I came to similar conclusions.  My favorite combinations were X/Y 4011 + 4006 or 4060 (I like both in different ways).  What's interesting to note is the relatively close spacing (I'll call it European-style) of the AB omnis at 42 cm.  When I combined the spaced omnis with center X/Y, I was immediately reminded of the Faulkner subcard / omni setup, where things snapped right to focus when adding the two pairs together.  In that array the omnis are wider but the center subcards are only 10 cm away from each flanking omni - here that distance from card to omni is 21 cm but I find the sound quite similar.  I'd like to hear samples of the omnis a little wider at 60 cm for this, but then again for this recording I suppose they were spaced how they were because of the close placement to the singers and were meant to be listened to on their own.

It's interesting that the ORTF + AB combo doesn't sound all that great.  Given my experience with the Faulkner setup I didn't think having a non-coincident center pair would have that kind of sound with the flanking omnis.  I wonder if the ORTF array was not in the same horizontal or vertical plane as the omnis as you mentioned earlier.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2015, 11:36:53 AM »
I'll put my set of Avenson ST0-2 omni's up against any other omni...and for $550 for a Stereo Pair...pocket the cash I saved vs a pair of DPA's

http://avensonaudio.com/sto2/

Note the scale on this graph...ONE db



I'm sure they're great mics, but that graph doesn't impress me without seeing a polar response.  I can't believe they don't have a polar chart on their site - that's pretty basic info.  Without that, we have no idea how it performs off-axis and thus how "omni" it is which is pretty important to know.  For instance, since your avatar indicates you're a MG guy, take a look at the polar charts for the M296 and you'll see they're only really omni until somewhere between 2 kHz and 4 kHz.

In contrast, look at the measurements for the Line Audio OM1 (under $300 / pair) which also have very flat frequency response (if that's what you want) and the polar chart shows that they don't start to become directional until somewhere between 8 kHz and 16 kHz.

Neither the Avenson nor the Line Audio will be the best choice if you're pretty far away though, as they are both free-field omnis.

This is a big reason why I want the 4060s, as they are diffuse-field, with a HF boost that will help compensate for the losses over distance, and you can remove the grids entirely for close work like many folks on GS do for close orchestra recording.  Also, check out the near-perfect polar response.  Jörg Wuttke formerly of Schoeps calls the 4060 a "perfect" omni mic, and I believe he's referring to that polar response.


I just posted two PDFs of the calibration charts for a DPA matched pair of 4061 measured with the 'low-boot' short grids installed over in TS Knowledge Base / Microphones & Setup. Link- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=175013.msg2163073#msg2163073

These measurements were provided from DPA along with this matched pair in 2003.  the charts clearly show the "diffuse-field" HF boost of these microphones with the "low-boost", short-grids installed, which begins around 2kHz, peaks at ~ +5db @ 9kHz, is back down to ~ +2dB at 15Khz, and has another smaller peak to +3dB @ 20kHz.

Of course it depends on the mic configuration and the frequency balance of the source material as well as the recording distance, yet when recording from typical taper distances out in the audience I often end up using a shelf eq boost of something like an additional +3dB up top.
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Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2015, 11:39:00 AM »
I ran line audio omni om1>m148>661 last night for Los Lobos split 3 feet about 45 feet from stage right behind the board, inside a freaking indoor rodeo arena with issues, the  om1 punch so far above their price. Wow.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 01:53:05 PM by MakersMarc »
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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2015, 02:33:37 AM »
Naiant X-O

is all you need bro!  ;D >:D 8)
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Re: Split Omnis (Recommendations and Advice)
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2015, 12:17:36 PM »
now that's a venue we don't see much of on the tundra!  ;D

One for every small town in Minnesota?  ;D
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