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Author Topic: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives  (Read 9653 times)

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Offline Amir

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Folks, I've heard a good deal of compliments about the CA-14 package -- http://www.church-audio.com/viewitem.php?productid=21
However, I can't purchase this great package due to a couple of important reasons -- shipping issues, my own location, delayed delivery, etc. As such, I'd like to know what the best/most high-quality CA-14 alternative is on the market. I want to use the mic and preamp/battery box combo for stealth-recording with my Sony PCM-D100.
I know that Sound-Professionals offers some so-called CA-14 alternatives, but don't know which one does a better job or which one is a true CA-14 competitor. Your suggestions, recommendations and insights would be welcome.

Offline Ultfris101

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Omnis or cards? Both? and is the price point a major issue?

For omnis the Countryman B3's get positive reviews tho I've not used them personally. I really like my DPA 4061s. I found a pair in good shape on ebay for about $500. You can do a little better if you watch but they are often "well used".

For tiny omnis the 406x's will be hard to beat.
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

Offline bryonsos

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For omnis the Countryman B3's get positive reviews tho I've not used them personally.


Yep. I've used mine alongside folks using full bodied mics, and preferred my tape to theirs. More downloads of mine in many cases too, so I'm not just being self-congratulatory.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
Decks: Roland R-44 / Sony PCM-M10
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Offline Amir

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Omnis or cards? Both? and is the price point a major issue?

For omnis the Countryman B3's get positive reviews tho I've not used them personally. I really like my DPA 4061s. I found a pair in good shape on ebay for about $500. You can do a little better if you watch but they are often "well used".

For tiny omnis the 406x's will be hard to beat.

I'm willing to spend on this up to $500 -- a bit more or a bit less wouldn't make a big difference. I don't have a preference for omnis or cards as long as the performance is similar to what the CA-14 package offers.
I'd rather have a mic pair rather than a single mic -- preferably in combination with a battery box or preamp. So the Countryman B3 seems to be a single mic and if I get two B3's, I should take care of 2 wires/connections. This is all against the comfort factor as I can't easily achieve that with the PCM-D100.
Finally, I'd rather avoid Ebay and prefer B and H, Sound-Professionals, Amazon, etc.

Offline Amir

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I've found SP-CMC-9 which is apparently a good candidate -- http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-9
Do you recommend it as a high-quality mic pair? Is it better than the cheaper SP-CMC-2 which the very same company offers?
Another issue is that the basic offering which requires plug-in power can't handle higher sound levels. So if I want to stick to my Sony PCM-D100 (without phantom power), keep the ease of use and simplicity of the basic config to the extent possible, and don't resort to separate cluncky cables, which SP-CMC-9 config do you recommend? As I also have the Olympus LS-100 at hand, I'd also like to know which config might suit that, too.
Thanks.

ilduclo

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I've heard that the d100 internals are excellent. Why not invest in a decent little tripod and use them instead of externals?

Offline Amir

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I've heard that the d100 internals are excellent. Why not invest in a decent little tripod and use them instead of externals?

That's very true, and I can confirm that as a PCM-D100 owner. But the combo you suggest is something and stealth-recording is horse of a different color. Of course, if I can make sure no one would find fault with my small but protruding tripod, I'd happily utilize your suggestion. But I don't know what I should expect from the security guys in different places.

ilduclo

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 >:D, I would reccommend the countryman and the dpa omnis.

Offline Amir

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>:D, I would reccommend the countryman and the dpa omnis.

Well, the more I read about the Countryman, the more uncertain I become. I feel I can get more decent recordings if I spend a bit more on mics compared with what we get from Countryman offerings.

Offline bryonsos

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I'd rather have a mic pair rather than a single mic -- preferably in combination with a battery box or preamp. So the Countryman B3 seems to be a single mic and if I get two B3's, I should take care of 2 wires/connections. This is all against the comfort factor as I can't easily achieve that with the PCM-D100.

Yes, get 2 and wire/have them wired into a single stereo mini plug. I had mine shipped directly to one of the folks here (Jon @ Naiant since he's localish to me iirc), but any of the other cable makers should be able to do it for you.

You posted while I was typing. Don't underestimate the B3s, they sound better than many mics 10x the cost including many/most you mentioned.

Comp this with the other tapes that day: https://archive.org/details/furthur2012-07-11.bryonsos

I knew there would be a bunch of other tapers, so I figured I'd see how they compared to the big boys, and somebody would make a good tape. More or comparable downloads to everything else posted.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 04:03:57 PM by bryonsos »
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
Decks: Roland R-44 / Sony PCM-M10
GAKables
Dead Muppets

My recordings LMA / BT / TTD

Offline mpmks

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Re: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 04:12:28 PM »
i have used at853's for years and find them to be a very nice small mic
maybe a little lite on the bottom end
i currently used them with a tiny box
you have the option with them of alternate caps so you can have omni and card and hyper or the combination you want

they are in the yard sale all the time for fair pricing

i think you could likely find an entire set with tiny box in your $500 range

find them to be very good quality on the point and shoot side of rigs

adrianf74

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Re: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 04:15:43 PM »
For full disclosure, I've owned both the B3's and the 4061's and prefer the 4061's to the B3's without a doubt.  My 4061's were ex-broadway mics and my B3's were bought brand new locally in Toronto.  I used the B3's to record three different shows (one outdoors close to the stage at an Amphitheatre, a second in a club about 15-20 people back directly in line with the stacks, and the third was open on a stand alongside 483's).  The first was "okay" but nothing special.  I found it muddy on the recording despite what I heard at the show.   The same muddiness occurred with the two club shows -- I'd recorded at one of these venues using CA-14 omnis, CA-14 cards and DPA 4061's previously and all of those recordings smoked this one.  It sounded a little muddy in the room but the B3's just added to it.   Finally, the last show was mixed well (and loud) but it just didn't have any sizzle or bite.  Frankly, IMHO, the B3's are okay but there are much better options out there.  I know the B3's are smaller than the 4061's but I'd gladly take the 4061's over the B3's even though they have the slightly exaggerated DPA OMNI sound.

EDIT: I've had the 853 omnis and didn't care much for those, either.  I found them okay at best and preferred the CA-14 omnis to them.  I think the OP is looking for the smallest omni mics possible leaving the B3 and 406x series as the options.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 04:17:15 PM by adrianf »

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 04:41:23 PM »
I'd rather have a mic pair rather than a single mic -- preferably in combination with a battery box or preamp. So the Countryman B3 seems to be a single mic and if I get two B3's, I should take care of 2 wires/connections. This is all against the comfort factor as I can't easily achieve that with the PCM-D100.

Yes, get 2 and wire/have them wired into a single stereo mini plug. I had mine shipped directly to one of the folks here (Jon @ Naiant since he's localish to me iirc), but any of the other cable makers should be able to do it for you.

You posted while I was typing. Don't underestimate the B3s, they sound better than many mics 10x the cost including many/most you mentioned.

Comp this with the other tapes that day: https://archive.org/details/furthur2012-07-11.bryonsos

I knew there would be a bunch of other tapers, so I figured I'd see how they compared to the big boys, and somebody would make a good tape. More or comparable downloads to everything else posted.

I'll second what bryonsos has posted.  Full Compass and B&H generally don't keep the pigtail/unterminated B3s in stock and will have them drop-shipped directly from Countryman.  If you call Full Compass, not only will they match the best price you can find if their's isn't already the lowest, but you can have them ship the mics directly to one of the TS board cablers (darktrain, tgakidis, etc) where they will then do the termination work and ship them to you when it's done.  That's how I did my B3s and I couldn't be happier with them.

That's if you like the sound of the B3s.  As adrianf posted, not everyone cares for their flavor, but the excellent DPA 4061s that he recommends will cost you at least twice as much new as the B3s.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2014, 05:32:58 PM »
I've found SP-CMC-9 which is apparently a good candidate -- http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-9
Do you recommend it as a high-quality mic pair? Is it better than the cheaper SP-CMC-2 which the very same company offers?
Another issue is that the basic offering which requires plug-in power can't handle higher sound levels. So if I want to stick to my Sony PCM-D100 (without phantom power), keep the ease of use and simplicity of the basic config to the extent possible, and don't resort to separate cluncky cables, which SP-CMC-9 config do you recommend? As I also have the Olympus LS-100 at hand, I'd also like to know which config might suit that, too.
Thanks.

There seem to be horses of different colors in this... 

The CA provides both and omni and card patterned capsules.  In that regard it functions more like many full bodied mics (using capsules).  Few of the other tiny mic options use a switchable capsule based paradigm. 

That said there are a number of options.  Part may depend on what you're recording and from where. 

From SP I like (and use) their CMC-25's.  I've been happy with those as my low-profile mics and they've gotten a lot of use.  I've almost never been disappointed with the results.  This is a card (and one of their high end models).  Like most small mics (esp. cards) they can be lighter on the low end.  IMO that can be an advantage at loud rock shows at any distance from the sound source.  They come terminated into a standard minijack and the supplied clips make them easy to mount. 

I don't favor omnis for what I record or how I use mics, so don't have much perspective on those.  For very quiet shows (unamplified acoustic/classical/jazz) the DPA's have a considerably lower noise floor than pretty much everything else.  Respectful crowds and the rest at that sort of show tend to make an omni more of a potential choice in that setting.  I'd never use an omni in the typically chattering crowds at rock shows, nor even marginally back at a venue. 

I'd get in touch with Chris at SP regarding the best option among their omnis based on your intended use/s if that is your preference so you at least clearly know your options. 

The AT853 with subcard caps is more recommendable than the other capsules those can use.  The subcard caps are very hard to find though (for that reason I'm sure).  I've liked what I've heard recorded close from that combination, but not the standard card or omni caps. 

I'd used a battery box for a while (with the SP's) but upgraded to a Tinybox which can also phantom power my full sized mics.  It gives better results and a lot more flexibility.  One of the nicest pieces of gear I can think of.  It does have a long lead time to be built though (a reflection of the demand among the discerning here and elsewhere). 


Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Amir

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Re: Seeking advice and recommendations regarding the best CA-14 alternatives
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2014, 05:17:53 AM »
I've found SP-CMC-9 which is apparently a good candidate -- http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-9
Do you recommend it as a high-quality mic pair? Is it better than the cheaper SP-CMC-2 which the very same company offers?
Another issue is that the basic offering which requires plug-in power can't handle higher sound levels. So if I want to stick to my Sony PCM-D100 (without phantom power), keep the ease of use and simplicity of the basic config to the extent possible, and don't resort to separate cluncky cables, which SP-CMC-9 config do you recommend? As I also have the Olympus LS-100 at hand, I'd also like to know which config might suit that, too.
Thanks.

There seem to be horses of different colors in this... 

The CA provides both and omni and card patterned capsules.  In that regard it functions more like many full bodied mics (using capsules).  Few of the other tiny mic options use a switchable capsule based paradigm. 

That said there are a number of options.  Part may depend on what you're recording and from where. 

From SP I like (and use) their CMC-25's.  I've been happy with those as my low-profile mics and they've gotten a lot of use.  I've almost never been disappointed with the results.  This is a card (and one of their high end models).  Like most small mics (esp. cards) they can be lighter on the low end.  IMO that can be an advantage at loud rock shows at any distance from the sound source.  They come terminated into a standard minijack and the supplied clips make them easy to mount. 

I don't favor omnis for what I record or how I use mics, so don't have much perspective on those.  For very quiet shows (unamplified acoustic/classical/jazz) the DPA's have a considerably lower noise floor than pretty much everything else.  Respectful crowds and the rest at that sort of show tend to make an omni more of a potential choice in that setting.  I'd never use an omni in the typically chattering crowds at rock shows, nor even marginally back at a venue. 

I'd get in touch with Chris at SP regarding the best option among their omnis based on your intended use/s if that is your preference so you at least clearly know your options. 

The AT853 with subcard caps is more recommendable than the other capsules those can use.  The subcard caps are very hard to find though (for that reason I'm sure).  I've liked what I've heard recorded close from that combination, but not the standard card or omni caps. 

I'd used a battery box for a while (with the SP's) but upgraded to a Tinybox which can also phantom power my full sized mics.  It gives better results and a lot more flexibility.  One of the nicest pieces of gear I can think of.  It does have a long lead time to be built though (a reflection of the demand among the discerning here and elsewhere).

Thanks, man, for your blow-by-blow analysis of this topic.
Having looked into that further, I've also come to the conclusion that cards would fit what I want to achieve better. The CMC-25 which you recommended sounds like a great mic, but I'm worried about its very low SPL numbers. Without any modifications it just provides 105dB of SPL -- too low for such a price point. With extra power options the SPL will be extended to 117dB/130dB. I'm assuming that the battery box option offers 117dB which is, apparently, still worrisome. Of course, I'm quoting these numbers from SP's page for the mic -- http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-25
Is this a valid concern? For the record, I don't have those SPL numbers for CMC-8 as SP doesn't display them, but the SPL numbers for the cheaper CMC-2 is head and shoulders above those of the CMC-25.
It's worth mentioning (and perhaps I should've mentioned it earlier) that I do have the USBPre2 which can provide phantom power to any of these mic configurations. I can take it to any venue if required though I've always preferred to move around as gear-light as possible. So would I still need a battery box, or a Tinybox for that matter, if I cary the USBPre2 along with its light USB battery bank?

 

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