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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: heyitsmejess on August 06, 2007, 08:38:03 PM
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any idea when this will hit the stores?
ever sience my beloved marantz pmd-420 died (playback is fine, but the right input channel is dead), ive been looking at this, as it seems to do everything i want it to do, plus some, for a great price (199.99).
i know there was a problem with the h4 and a beeping noise when a certain light flashed. im sure that will be fixed for the h2
any thoughts?
(http://www.videomaker.com/blog/uploads/2007/04/H2_hand_web.jpg)
(http://www.guitariste.com/articles/img/851-big-zoom-h2.jpg)
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916 (http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916)
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Maybe in September some will appear? We all hope the H2 is less a 'toy' meant for aspiring musicians than the H4 seems to be. No doubt, at $200, the H2 will be the low price champion regardless of recording quality/feature set.
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the last i heard, it was supposed to ship sometime this month.
sorry aboth the freakin HUGE picture
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Looks like its here for pre-order. This guy has 20 of them on eBay, with arrival on Aug. 29.. Any guinea pigs available? $199.00 shipped.
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Zoom-H2-Handy-Recorder-w-512-SD-Smaller-than-H4_W0QQitemZ320148980098QQihZ011QQcategoryZ15199QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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if you google "zoom h2", it comes up with a place selling it for $162.00
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if you google "zoom h2", it comes up with a place selling it for $162.00
ZOOM = Plastic toy crap.. GET AN EDIROL... save your money :) The zoom h4 was junk.. this is going to be based on the same technology. It too will prove to be junk...They cant even make a good guitar effects processor ( this is what the company does for a living ) how are they supposed to make a digital recorder????
And lets face it the built in mics are going to be junk too... They are using some lame DSP to fool you into thinking that the mics actually sound good.. Garbage.. imo
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if you google "zoom h2", it comes up with a place selling it for $162.00
ZOOM = Plastic toy crap.. GET AN EDIROL... save your money :) The zoom h4 was junk.
To each their own...I love my H4.
Craig
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Yeah, I ran into a pro musician who tapes her acoustic horn with the H4 and she loves it. Using the built in mics, too....
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if you google "zoom h2", it comes up with a place selling it for $162.00
ZOOM = Plastic toy crap.. GET AN EDIROL...
I've seen lots of reports of problems with the Edirol input jacks breaking. The XLR inputs on the H4 are pretty sturdy. Which is the toy again?
No one recorder is right for everybody. If you want XLR inputs and phantom power you're going to have to spend a whole lot more money than the price of the Zoom H4 to beat it. You certainly can beat it, but it will cost you.
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if you google "zoom h2", it comes up with a place selling it for $162.00
ZOOM = Plastic toy crap.. GET AN EDIROL... save your money :) The zoom h4 was junk.. this is going to be based on the same technology. It too will prove to be junk...They cant even make a good guitar effects processor ( this is what the company does for a living ) how are they supposed to make a digital recorder????
And lets face it the built in mics are going to be junk too... They are using some lame DSP to fool you into thinking that the mics actually sound good.. Garbage.. imo
That's a false statement. The H4 is a nice, rock solid, little box with a lot of good qualities. Good for what we do? Not quite there, but close. It just needed an improved preamp and get rid of the shared line-in/mic-in XLR/TRS connection. It certainly is not junk. Where did you come up with that scientific determination? I never had an issue with it operationally. It was a proven winner has far as reliability. Just needs some tweaks.
Oh yeah: Who uses its onboard mics any way? ???
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Most dealers have the H2 (as of 22 Aug) now....
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My H2 is on the way to me as I write this from Sweetwater.com.
Looking forward to comparing the H2 to the H4 and R09 that I already have.
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if I could only make out the details from that picture at the top...
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My H2 is on the way to me as I write this from Sweetwater.com.
Looking forward to comparing the H2 to the H4 and R09 that I already have.
Let us know what is inside!!! It could be a cheaper alternative to the Edirol R09.
Richard
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if I could only make out the details from that picture at the top...
yeah..that second picture is so tiny...i wish i could have found one a little bigger....to give the idea of what the functions are
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Daddy's Junky Music in Portsmouth, NH had them in stock today (2 left now) so I picked one up after work. However, it's still in the package. It's my wife's birthday today so I won't have a chance to look at it until after work tomorrow or this weekend.
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Previous H4 and now H2 are most attractive with having unique features AND VERY LOW PRICE to remain FAVORITE alternatives to higher costing deck choices. Many have found H4's recording performance quiet acceptable, others have been more than a little disappointed.
I'm in the latter group with finding the H4 bench test I performed on the H4 with too many shortcomings for serious amateur/professional users.
See my findings at: www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm)
I am continually surprised on how many professionals/universities emailed me with either having bought the H4, or expressed intention to purchase H4 for media group activities where recorded audio quality/reliability is an important issue. And no reason to believe less serious interest in acquiring the newer H2.
One thing is certain, H2 needs to be honestly bench tested for performance specification in recordist's terms as I like to do.
One glowing red flag showing on the new H2 is total lack of support for SDHC higher capacity cards, and having H4's limitation of 2 GIG maximum storage card capacity.
With H4 2 GIG limit was more or less acceptable as SDHC specification might of come a bit after H4 shipped, but plenty of new gear this year implements SDHC that's most useful in video and especially .wav file capable audio recording devices.
This makes me think there's every possibility the H2 is the same H4 underneath with new fancy clothes?
Maybe someone with one or two of these will arrange a loan for doing some hard tests like done for previous popular low costing deck models?
Other past reviews:
Edirol/Roland R-09: www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
M-audio Microtrack 24/96: www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm)
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It seems like a nice little unit....Please i would love to get some feedbacks on his reliability.
Semayat
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I just ordered one from Samash.com online salesman said they juts got a big shipment in..Should have mine in few days..
to guysonic,why do you say it will only work with a 2gig card it clearly states 4gig SD card capacity??
How do you know SDHC will not work for the H2?
I called samson and they had no answer for me and zoom's site has no info if it can handle a SDHC..I'm curiuos how you arrived at that conclusion??
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=8870
tim
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The H2 can handle up to a 4gig SDHC card. I still haven't unpacked it but it's included in the specifications on the box.
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Looking forward to your review, Goatfarmer!
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Daddy's Junky Music in Portsmouth, NH had them in stock today (2 left now) so I picked one up after work. However, it's still in the package. It's my wife's birthday today so I won't have a chance to look at it until after work tomorrow or this weekend.
you bought your wife a H2 for her birthday and she will not let you look at it till tomorrow ;)
let us know how you like it and hope you guys have a nice night
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I just ordered one from Samash.com online salesman said they juts got a big shipment in..Should have mine in few days..
to guysonic,why do you say it will only work with a 2gig card it clearly states 4gig SD card capacity??
How do you know SDHC will not work for the H2?
I called samson and they had no answer for me and zoom's site has no info if it can handle a SDHC..I'm curiuos how you arrived at that conclusion??
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=8870
tim
Earlier pre-shipment H2 specifications mention SD card ONLY with 2 GIG limitation. SD card is standardized with protocol up to 2 GIG, and although 4 GIG SD cards did appear recently in the marketplace, many SD devices could not use them in reliable manner as these larger capacity cards are not fully compatible with SD standards followed by most manufactures of devices that use them.
Looking forward to your review, Goatfarmer!
So HarpDoc, what might you have against goats? While I don't own any, I would if having the space, and did find they produce EXCELLENT milk and goat-milk cheese! Maybe you should try some sometime.
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I always find comfort in buying a gift for myself when buying a gift for someone else. ;)
We had a great night! Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more...
Unfortunately, we also attended a memorial of sorts tonight for a friend who passed away on Monday. He was a musician and a great person who was instrumental in getting our local community radio station off the ground. There were many talented musicians jamming in a circle in his backyard...it would have been perfect to try out the H2's onboard mics. Not the time or place to make a scene.
The H2 still sits in its box whilst I think about hitting the sack. Many things in life are more important.
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thank's for clearing that up guysonic.... :)
I'm gonna wait to hear from goatfarmer before I decide what card to get..either SDHC or SD..Hopefully the SDHC works with good results..
tim
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Looks like SDHC cards do work in the Zoom H2. No info on the card manufacturer yet.
Flintstone
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"i put an 8gb sdhc card into the zoom h2 and it didn't recognize it until i powered it off and on again. it took nearly a minute at 'loading' and then recognized it just fine. Over 12 hrs at the default recording mode and nearly 4 hours at absolute highest quality mode (wav96/24bit)
i already like it better than the h4 which felt cheaper--like it was plastic filled with air--and which you had to fight with the insert and remove batteries and sd cards.
/guy
August 24, 2007 04:12 PM "
excerpt from
http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/2007/04/zoom_h2_digital_recorder_detai.html
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Further developments:
The poster to oreillynet now says the H2 can read and write 4GB (Transcend)
and 8GB (Patriot) SDHC cards, but it can't format the SDHC cards.
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I just received mine from Sweetwater Sound. Popped in a 8gig Transcend SDHC card and...
Shows 12:40:23 time remaining, great!, will my NIMH's last that long?
Initial impressions on the look of this thing...
With the wind screen it looks like some kind of weeble-wobble with an afro. The display is mad tiny, I had to use a lupe to see what I was doing.
(http://www.jazzstudies.us:81/images/myzoomh2.jpg)
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as found on the nature recorderist group..
Two AA alkaline batteries last about 6 hours, enough time to record
3.8GB of tracks at 16/44.1. That's a good fit with a 4GB SD card.
When the size of the file created by a continuous recording approaches
2GB, the file is automatically saved. A new file is opened and
recording continues. I have not determined if the split is seamless,
meaning no samples are lost during the process of closing one file and
opening another.
The H2 shut down gracefully when the batteries were depleted, and
properly closed the file it was creating.
To record longer than 6 hours, you'll need NiMH rechargeable batteries
with a high mAh rating. Or you can use an external battery box. The
H2 has a mini-USB port, but I couldn't use it to power the recorder.
The H2's mains power adapter supplies 9V DC, so I think a battery box
that produces 9V would work.
Monaural input is recorded by the left channel. When "Mono Mix"
setting is selected, Mono input is recorded on both left and right
channels. Regardless of setting, Mono consumes as much space on the SD
card as stereo.
The door covering the SD slot doesn't swing away far enough to allow
easy removal of the SD card. Careful application of a long fingernail
or tweezers is necessary to pry the card from the recorder.
--oryoki
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Messages in this topic (0) Reply
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Found on the naturerecordists list
The Zoom H2 is a digital recorder, capable of using WAV and MP3
formats. WAV files can be quantized at rates up to 24/96. MP3
encoding is available up to 320 kbps. Variable Bit Rate MP3 is
supported, too.
The process of starting a recording is simple. Press the record
button and the H2 enters record/pause. Check the metering levels on
the LCD display. Set the levels by pressing + and - buttons. Then
press the record button to start the recording. Another press of the
record button stops the recording. Recording doesn't get much easier
than this!
The H2 has a couple of features to help make better recordings. The
microphone sensitivity switch adds about 10dB at each step from low to
medium to high. The H2 also has a 2 second pre-roll buffer to help
you catch the start of a vocalization.
The H2's preamp is mediocre, typical of the under-$500 recorders. It
reminded me of the Edirol R-09 and M-Audio Microtrack 2496. I think
the preamp in the H2 is similar to the design in the Zoom H4, a model
that approaches the quality of the Sony Hi-MD preamp, according to
Klas Strandberg. (Hi Klas!)
My H2 recordings using high preamp gain had a noticeable background
hiss. Using high microphone sensitivity can make the recording too
bright. I found the best result came with medium sensitivity and
medium gain. On the H2, the gain scale steps from 0 to 127. I got
good results at a setting of 90 when using a Sennheiser ME-62.
In my sample recordings, I was not aware of the recorder capturing RF
noise from the LCD screen or from RF interference generated while
writing to the SD card.
The H2 has 3.5mm (1/8") jacks for stereo mic input and line-level
input. The mic input provides 2.5V DC power to microphones that
don't have a power supply. There is no digital input or output. The
3.5mm headphones jack doubles as a line output.
The H2 has an unusual built-in microphone, It's an array composed of
four small cardiod mics. The pair of mics facing the front of the
recorder are most sensitive in a 90 degree arc. The pair facing the
rear best capture a 120 degree arc. You can select to record in
stereo using either pair.
Zoom also makes it possible to record from all four mics
simultaneously, useful when recording ambience. The result can be
saved as a conventional two channel WAV file. Alternatively, the front
and rear mic pairs can be captured in two separate files. These two
files can be encoded into a 5.1 surround format in post-production.
(Software to do so is not included.)
The H2 uses Secure Digital flash memory cards for data storage.
According to Zoom, standard SD cards up to 2GB capacity and 4GB SDHC
cards are approved for use. I tried a 4GB Transcend standard SD card,
and it works, too.
The H2 takes a long time to start up, about 25 seconds with a 4GB SD
card. This will be frustrating when an unexpected recording
opportunity appears. Shutdown takes just 4 seconds.
Battery life using two AA alkaline cells is good. I'm running a test
now. The recorder has created a WAV file 4 hours long, and the
battery meter still shows "full." There are two hours left before I
run out of space on the 4GB SD card.
The H2 file system adds a date and time stamp to recordings. Files
are stored in up to 10 folders to organize them. Files can be renamed
and deleted through the menu system, and split into shorter segments.
File operations include the ability to normalize a recording (that is,
raise the overall volume of a recording so the loudest sound is
exactly 0dB).
Physically, the H2 is quite small. It weighs 166 g (5.9 oz) ready to
record. It's not as slim as the Microtrack 2496 or R-09 recorders
are, but it's easy enough to hold the H2 in one hand and operate the
controls with your thumb, like you would with a cell phone.
Overall construction of the H2 is adequate. The body of the recorder
is silver plastic, similar to the body of an inexpensive digital
camera. The buttons controlling recording are small and offer little
tactile feedback. The doors covering the battery compartment and the
SD memory card slot are not particularly strong. The LCD panel that
displays the recorder's menu system and metering levels is small, but
seems easy to read.
The H2 kit includes a short handle to reduce noise when holding the
recorder in your hand. The handle screws into a threaded socket in
the base of the recorder. The socket accepts the screw on most camera
tripods, making it easy to mount the H2 for unattended recording.
The kit also includes a windscreen that completely covers the
microphone capsule.
The Zoom H2 is widely available for about $200. After the initial
demand for the recorder is met, I think the price will decline a bit.
Read more about the Zoom H2 here:
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916
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Those sound like good reviews to me...
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Found on the naturerecordists list
Zoom also makes it possible to record from all four mics
simultaneously, useful when recording ambience. The result can be
saved as a conventional two channel WAV file. Alternatively, the front
and rear mic pairs can be captured in two separate files. These two
files can be encoded into a 5.1 surround format in post-production.
(Software to do so is not included.)
Hmm. If it really records four tracks that is cool. Not elegent, but how about tapping into those four mics and running either an ambisonic mic, or two mic + two sbd. Now that sounds cool!
Richard
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Nice to find .pdf of owners manual somewhere. Anybody spot this as yet?
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User Manual PDF here: http://www.samsontech.com/products/relatedDocs/H2_user_manual.pdf
Page found on here: http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1916
This is sounding pretty good to me! I need to replace my GMINI 120 !!!!!!!
\m/_skua_\m/
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Thank you for.pdf link. Last time I looked a day ago, it seemed the .pdf manual was missing from the product page, and now it's there! :o
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No problem man! Actually I just stumbled across the H2 online after seeing an ad for it in the Sept. issue of 'Guitar & Bass' magazine... then I immediately came here to see what was being said about the unit!
It's been killing me going to shows and not having a working recorder! hehehehehe...
\m/_skua_\m/
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Found on the naturerecordists list
Zoom also makes it possible to record from all four mics
simultaneously, useful when recording ambience. The result can be
saved as a conventional two channel WAV file. Alternatively, the front
and rear mic pairs can be captured in two separate files. These two
files can be encoded into a 5.1 surround format in post-production.
(Software to do so is not included.)
Hmm. If it really records four tracks that is cool. Not elegent, but how about tapping into those four mics and running either an ambisonic mic, or two mic + two sbd. Now that sounds cool!
Richard
It doesn't actually record to 4 tracks.
What 4 channel surround does, is record a 2 channel stereo track, and duplicates it.
You can then setup your surround sound in the unit itself, by selecting which tracks you want in the front or rears and what levels you would like them as.
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Hi all -
Been a while - busy summer, although not much recording recently!
Could anybody whose roadtesting one of these post back on ease of interface? I have students who would jump all over a unit w/acceptable built-in mics for that price, but many of them are TOTAL luddites who only want to be able to record their lessons and are unlikely to take time or energy to figure out anything as complicated to run as the H4 (I tried a friend's, and had to use the manual just to figure out how to get to the menus!). These guys basically need something under $200 but with the simplicity of the R09, so I figure I better snif around before rec'ing this unit to them!
Thanks!
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I'm not clear why part of a negative review for the H4 appears in this H2 thread?
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Found on the naturerecordists list
Zoom also makes it possible to record from all four mics
simultaneously, useful when recording ambience. The result can be
saved as a conventional two channel WAV file. Alternatively, the front
and rear mic pairs can be captured in two separate files. These two
files can be encoded into a 5.1 surround format in post-production.
(Software to do so is not included.)
Hmm. If it really records four tracks that is cool. Not elegent, but how about tapping into those four mics and running either an ambisonic mic, or two mic + two sbd. Now that sounds cool!
Richard
It doesn't actually record to 4 tracks.
What 4 channel surround does, is record a 2 channel stereo track, and duplicates it.
You can then setup your surround sound in the unit itself, by selecting which tracks you want in the front or rears and what levels you would like them as.
I looked at the user manual (.pdf file above, pages 27, 28). It says it records "two stereo wave tracks". So, I'm hoping... It would be messy to hack the mics themselves, but I'm thinking of just tapping in there to get four channels. If this could be done, that would be killer!
Richard
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Re ease of use, see http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=107751 where comments (in brief) on that aspect seem favourable.
Two stereo files separately recorded will give you the output from each capsule individually - if you really want you could split that down outside the recorder into four mono files. No need for hacks it would appear. I had wondered whether they were going to use a single four-channel (multichannel) file which would not have worked in all DAW software but it looks like they've gone for the more practical approach.
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in regards to "humming" noise posted above..That is only for the H4 not the H2 correct?..If not and it is in reference to the H2 what kinda 6v battery box would be needed?..Is that a seperate battery box for the unit, then another one for the mics?????
and with the "mic in" feature we won't have to worry about any handling noise correct?? Unless we use the mics that come equiped with the unit??
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It looks as if Zoom has pulled off a really good deal here. All this for US$200. That is a lot and a great deal for entry level recording. This should sell well and be a wakeup call to other manufacturers. Yup. 8)
Cheers
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in regards to "humming" noise posted above..That is only for the H4 not the H2 correct?..
That's correct. Go to the Yahoo Group called "naturerecordists" and you can read the original post. The comment about the intermittent high-pitched tone was in response to another post asking about the H4.
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I agree with Richard... Hack it at the mic level as a 4 channel recorder. It could be done if Sampson does it in the unit.
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Having now run through the manual looking for catches, I can see only a couple of minor ones -
1 - There's no ""record pause" as such, only "record ready". So the cycle is
Press rec = record ready
Press rec = record run
Press rec = stop
Now you need to press rec again to get to the record ready state, ready for the next song/act/whatever. And you end up with separate files for each time you "record run" which is no huge deal, but sometimes not as convenient as one long file. Not a big deal but a slight catch. Certainly the use of one record button for all recording related operations makes things easy.
2 - Clip indicators do not appear to be resettable. So if you've got the clip indicator lit and you then lower the level accordingly, on the face of it you can't then see whether you've hit a new clip (unless you watch the meters all the time). Whether this is really how it works in practice I don't know.
3 - Which way round left and right are isn't that intuitive - though it's clearly marked. When you are recording from the back (120 degree) pair, left and right seem to be as marked. When from the front pair, 90 degrees, (the side with the display), left and right will be reversed, and that will also apply to four channel recording with the back pointing to the main source. I would have thought that within the software, when recording from the front pair only they could have reversed left and right for you. Maybe that could be addressed in a firmware revision eventually.
4 - The manual doesn't actually state that recording level can be changed while actually recording (transport running, not just in standby mode). A user might confirm whether this is possible. I hope so!!
The mic configuration seems to be a bit like a Blumlein pair, which requires crossed fig of 8 mics. That configuration can give a very nice image of something like a classical performance in a reverberant hall, but the rear of the image has left and right reversed (as the mic pointing to the right of the stage is also pointing to the left of the audience). In the case of the H2 it looks like one should be able to get the same kind of good image of a reverberant space, but with the image from the rear having its left and right the same as the image from the front. Here in Australia I look forward to whatever day in the future brings the H2 to these shores (said to be September sometime...).
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Oz--
#1 You're right, there's no record pause, but it's not something I miss and I honestly think a pause mode would have created more potential for user error without much of a benefit.
#2 Not sure what you mean. If you see clipping, you can lower the levels until it stops. The indicator light works continuously--steady to indicate the mic side is live and flashing to indicate clipping.
#3 I thought this was odd, but realized it was due to the 4 mic configuration and consistent with 4-channel recording. Simple enough to swap channels in post.
#4 Geez, yes--level adjustments on the fly.
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Berry, re clipping indicators, I mean those which (it seems) are in the actual level meters in the main display.
From the manual -
"At the rightmost end of the scale is
a clip indicator which lights up when
signal clipping (leading to distortion and
sound breakup) occurs. If clipping has
occurred at least once during playback
or recording, the clip indicator remains lit
until the end of playback/recording."
My niggle is that having seen that indicator, and it's staying lit, you'll want to reduce the level, then reset the indicator to monitor any further clips - you don't want it stuck on till the end of the show. Perhaps changing the level resets the indicator automatically?
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the manual(page 37) says the H2 has 8 different AGC/compressor/limiter settings:
there´s also 1 for live-recording...maybe they learned from rockbox "safety-clip" setting which lowers gain-levels but never boosts them.
;)
can anybody check this out who has the H2 in his hands?
the manual further said there is a live-recording-limiter setting, which attenuates the signal only...this sounds very much like a "rockbox-safety-clip"-feature.
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...My niggle is that having seen that indicator, and it's staying lit, you'll want to reduce the level, then reset the indicator to monitor any further clips - you don't want it stuck on till the end of the show. Perhaps changing the level resets the indicator automatically?
Ok, I got you. It's the little bar on the end of level display, one for each channel. On record standby, if it gets lit by clipping, once you go to record--it gets unlit. But once it's lit during a recording, it stays lit regardless of level adjustments. I see how it would be useful to be able to reset it, but I don't see any such option.
Arni--I haven't checked out the limiter options, but I'll try em out and report back.
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...My niggle is that having seen that indicator, and it's staying lit, you'll want to reduce the level, then reset the indicator to monitor any further clips - you don't want it stuck on till the end of the show. Perhaps changing the level resets the indicator automatically?
I see how it would be useful to be able to reset it, but I don't see any such option.
You have to be able to reset it! Otherwise it is rendered USELESS after the first clip...
What were they thinking?
Sounds like this could be a quick firmware fix - ?
I want a "peak hold" like on my old cassette decks...manual reset would be fine...but how about an "X seconds" hold? (user definable)
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Man, I totally agree. This is indeed a letdown. I've been messing around with it for a half hour and cannot find any way to reset the clip indicators during recording.
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Playing around, I noticed something interesting. If the level is set at or below 97, it's impossible to get the clipping indicator to light regardless of the gain setting (l/m/h) no matter how loud the source. As you lower the level setting, the level meters display what looks like a hard stop at decreasing levels under 0 db. The mic light still flickers with loud sources. Not quite sure what's going on here. I don't have the limiter turned on.
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Playing around, I noticed something interesting. If the level is set at or below 97, it's impossible to get the clipping indicator to light regardless of the gain setting (l/m/h) no matter how loud the source. As you lower the level setting, the level meters display what looks like a hard stop at decreasing levels under 0 db. The mic light still flickers with loud sources. Not quite sure what's going on here. I don't have the limiter turned on.
Brickwalling?
Jeff
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Presumably if the level at the mic is clipping the preamp before the signal gets to the variable level control, that "brickwalling" might happen.
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Just so others know.
I was able to format and use 8GB SDHC cards.
I purchased this 8GB Transcend SDHC card http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208293 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208293), and was able to format the card in the H2 itself and use it.
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Yeah, the new Zoom H2 site at http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h2/index.php lists that card as supported. There's also a flash 360 degree view, frequency response curve, and other goodies, though as I have queried elsewhere, I think they've got left/right and front/back a bit muddled in some of the diagrams (compared with what the manual says).
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Yeah, the new Zoom H2 site at http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/h2/index.php lists that card as supported. There's also a flash 360 degree view, frequency response curve, and other goodies, though as I have queried elsewhere, I think they've got left/right and front/back a bit muddled in some of the diagrams (compared with what the manual says).
Interesting site with additional technical information, but no frequency specs shown, just auto level start/stop recording graph. Also LINE input spec stated as -10 dB which seems a bit low, but may be nominal not maximum input level before clipping.
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I've had an H2 for 3 days now and have run all of the features through the paces... done some field recording, ambient bar noise,VO, etc. And so far, I have to say it's everything I was looking for.
I'm not an audio engineer but I've worked with some over the years... edited video/audio for broadcast... shot film and recorded dialogue to DAT... done a little recording and editing of audio for local radio spots, etc. So, I'm not completely foreign to the audio realm. I'm just not an engineer or bit cruncher.
Yes, I'm sure there are units costing 4 times more that can give a more faithful reproduction, etc. But, I only wanted something light and small to put in my camera bag that didn't require ectra mics, cables, etc. That was capable of getting decent recordings in a variety of situations without much fuss. I'm a photographer and wanted to play with doing some ambient work as soundtrack for my images (http://www.skiphuntphotography.com). So, the H2 is perfect for me.
However, since I've now gone through every feature.. I've notices a few problems. First, I DID get some dropout (I think). I can hear a series of click sounds in random fashion. But, ONLY if I first record in 4channels 48k 24bit OR 44.1 24bit and then use the unit to 3D Pan the mix and encode the two pairs down to one stereo pair. The resulting stereo pair will have this "clicking" sound consistently. Yes, I'm aware it's better to do your post in the computer. But I wanted to test everything. If I do a 4channel recording in 16bit and re-encode to a single stereo pair.. it's fine, no clicking. And, even if I record in 4channel 24bit.. the source pairs are fine without clicking. ONLY when re-encoded to a single pair via the H2's onboard processing.
Second problem is that when I select a stereo file to "nomalize" within the menu, the H2 takes an awfully long time working on it. Says "searching peaks".. then after an hour it says.... "Now Processing". This goes on for hours or until the battery dies. AND once you start the process, it won't let you cancel. It just keeps either "searching" or "processing". I couldn't even get it to force quit by turning off the power. The only thing that worked was pulling the batteries. I tried again with another file and the exact same thing.
Like I said, it's not that big a deal since I'll do all my post later and NOT with the H2, but there are definitely a bug or two under the hood... at least with mine. Likely a firmware fix. Can anyone test theirs and tell me if it does the same thing? Maybe I got a flawed one.
Everything else is great. I love this little thing and will get much use out of it. But, I really wish they had put a metal tripod mount on this thing. I've carefully mounted the H2 on several devices over the last three days, and the threads are already looking pretty worn.
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Guy, on the new Zoom site there's a link to the frequency response chart which you have to click to get it visible in a popup window.
The -10dB figure for line in is normal for non pro gear (which is +4dB) and is to be expected.
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Guy, on the new Zoom site there's a link to the frequency response chart which you have to click to get it visible in a popup window.
The -10dB figure for line in is normal for non pro gear (which is +4dB) and is to be expected.
OK! Found the internal MIC frequency plot. Seems -3 dB 160 cycles-to-16,000 cycles and nearly 10 dB down at 80 cycles. VERY good for voice recording on a busy traffic street. However, seems a bit too thin for acoustic music, but the bass rolloff might be just the ticket for very heavy bass rock if mics can stand up to the SPL loudness of a live venue without overloading?
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Anyone know of a reasonably intuitive Mac OSX app that will let me play with these 4Channel stereo pairs the H2 creates? And make a 5.1 mix?
When BeOS was getting attention.. I remember seeing one of their Audio 3D 5.1 surround apps that seemed VERY intuitive. Anyone know what that app was called? if that ever got ported over to OSX? And if something like that would work with the 4channel stereo pairs the H2 creates?
Anyone tried yet?
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Here's a couple quick voice tests I did between the H2 onboard FRONT mics at 90deg and a Sennheiser ME66 MONO mix. Both recorded at 96khz 24bit... and coverted to mp3 320kbps for web delivery.
http://www.poppinfreshmedia.com/h2test.html
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Reaper (www.reaper.fm) is in the process of being ported to the Mac. Look in their forum for the sticky thread where you can download the 2Mb installer "beta" version. A Mac friend tells me it's quite usable already, certainly for simple H2 remixes. And it's currently free.
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Here's a link to a series of posts that describe how
to build an external battery for the H2 from a 9.6V
RC car battery pack. Total cost about $35.
http://tinyurl.com/2r8ols
The posts talk about the H4, but the H2 needs the
same 9V DC input, and uses the same polarity
input as the H4.
I think the H2 will run without the AA batteries
installed if you use external power.
Flintstone
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Here's a take on the H2 from a minidisc forum:
http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=19765
the bottom line:
"Hey oz , I am an Audio engineer ok , Full Scale ,Schooled In it Live it Eat It Breathe it ........ you not taking my points seriously enough ,
The preamp for the EXT Mic input ,, how can I say this nicely ...... SUCKS !!!!!!!!!! I know how to test any given piece of equipment on any given Day .
YOU WILL BE DISSAPPOINTED BIG TIME , if you use external mics of ANY kind ."
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Here's a take on the H2 from a minidisc forum:
http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=19765
the bottom line:
"Hey oz , I am an Audio engineer ok , Full Scale ,Schooled In it Live it Eat It Breathe it ........ you not taking my points seriously enough ,
The preamp for the EXT Mic input ,, how can I say this nicely ...... SUCKS !!!!!!!!!! I know how to test any given piece of equipment on any given Day .
YOU WILL BE DISSAPPOINTED BIG TIME , if you use external mics of ANY kind ."
Yeah, that guy doesn't seem to think anything is worthy unless it's his lil' Sony RH1. I did some quick tests that I put links to above.. with the internal mics AND a Sennheiser ME66. I wasn't "disappointed big time". I'm going to try and do some more sample clips at a friend's studio later this week. Maybe this guy who claimes to be an Audio Engineer.. got a bad one? I just don't get it... he's been railing on this H2 for a couple days now. But, his tests don't seem acurate.. don't use the best settings on the H2.. AND, seem skewed to favor his lil' precious Sony RH1.
The H2 isn't the holy grail of portable recording by any stretch... but for $200, it does a great job in my opinion. Much better than I'd expected.
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The Sony RH1 does have amazing sound, I understand the guys point...
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The Sony RH1 does have amazing sound, I understand the guys point...
Well the guy did one test between the RH1 and the H2 using the same mic. His stated settings didn't seem right and I told him with MY mic and the same settings.. it'd have all kinds of headroom and that it wouldn't sound anywhere near as weak as his samples. He also didn't record in 96khz/24bit with the H2 (makes a big difference) when I questioned his testing.. he went berserk... grabbed up his marbles and went home. And it appears his samples are no longer there. Kinda suspicious... or maybe he realized his testing was flawed and is redoing it. Who knows.
All I know is that the preamps in the H2 probably won't compare with unit's costing MUCH more. But, if you want something that CAN take external mics and produce reasonable results.. has 4mics builtin and is one small package without having to carry along additional mics, preamps, etc. And if you want to use standard batteries and standard media.. and if you want an AGC, Limiter, and Compressor... and if you want to have all you need to record in a 90deg pattern OR a 120deg pattern OR a combination of the two OR a 4channel recording that can be remixed to 5.1... and have ALL that fit in your pocket or camera bag...then for $200, the H2 is a bargain.
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That guy might have been a total dick and yeah, the H2 does sound like a bargin. Likely a really nice device at this price point.
That being said, I bet a pair of electrets (be it 853's, or whatever) plugged into the RH1 would smoke anything the H2 could record in 5.1 @ 24/96. The RH1's analog stage is that good. the adc is no joke either..... It is nice having the headroom of 24/96, but I doubt the analog circuit, or mics on the H2 are worthy of such definition....
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That guy might have been a total dick and yeah, the H2 does sound like a bargin. Likely a really nice device at this price point.
That being said, I bet a pair of electrets (be it 853's, or whatever) plugged into the RH1 would smoke anything the H2 could record in 5.1 @ 24/96. The RH1's analog stage is that good. the adc is no joke either..... It is nice having the headroom of 24/96, but I doubt the analog circuit, or mics on the H2 are worthy of such definition....
Perhaps. I'm no audio engineer. Just a photographer wanting something that's decent, will fit in a small pocket of my camera bag, and will handle a wide variety of recording situations. For higher-end stuff, and if you don't mind carrying extra gear... the H2 might not suffice. For me... it does in spades.
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makes perfect sense skiphunt. T+
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That guy might have been a total dick and yeah, the H2 does sound like a bargin. Likely a really nice device at this price point.
That being said, I bet a pair of electrets (be it 853's, or whatever) plugged into the RH1 would smoke anything the H2 could record in 5.1 @ 24/96. The RH1's analog stage is that good. the adc is no joke either..... It is nice having the headroom of 24/96, but I doubt the analog circuit, or mics on the H2 are worthy of such definition....
I'm anxious to hear about the preamp (sound quality, self-noise, headroom) on this thing. I don't expect low noise -- I think MD easily wins there -- but if it sounds "clean" like the R09, then it could be a keeper. I like the R09 better than MD for moderate to loud sources.
And I'm thinking of hacking the H2. Imagine replacing the builtin mics with a set of AT853, Church cardioids, or even Sennheiser MKE2. That would be killer. You could even put a pair of cardioids and a pair of omnis in the same box. The possibilities are endless.
Richard
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Earlier I read the thread from http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=19765 (http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=19765) and was mentally exhausted afterward. :P
Let's face it, the H2 is not a high end recorder but a nifty little gadget that has much to offer for its price point. Skiphunt has stated it over and over again...it's fine for his needs and will be fine for many other folks. I bought one and think it's pretty cool. I also bought an iriver H120 4 years ago and loved recording with it using the stock firmware and a cheap Sony electret mic. I continue to use it today, with the far superior rockbox interface, a digimod UA5 and some cardioid mics.
If someone wants to record with a $25 microcasette recorder and enjoys the hell out of themselves doing it, let 'em.
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This guy Guitarfx stated that his intial recording with his prized mic is "the best you would ever get from the H2.." this simply isn't true. He didn't record a 96/24bit and still refuses to for some reason. He also didn't use a line matching transformer, etc. For external sources, you CAN get decent results.
He also states that "if you record with ANY external mic.... you WILL be disappointed..." Again, this is simply not true. I did sample clips with an ME66 that are not "disappointing" in the slightest. With better placement, better mic, and level adjustment.. it'd be even better.
Look, I never wanted to argue with this guy. I merely posted questions regarding his methods and conclusions. Instead of simply answering me... he launched into insults, claims of how knowledgable he is... how great he is to have guessed a couple specs... how great a guitar player he believes he is... etc.
It was like trying to have an adult conversation with Cartman from Southpark. (in the voice of Cartman) "I'm a studio rat... I live, eat, and breath it.. how dare you question my supreme self?.... YOU WILL RESPECT MY AUTHORA-TAHHHH!!!!"
Then he gets his panties in a bunch and trys to get the thread locked... when the moderators don't... he gets upset and then removes is samples and stomps away all hurt. Is this guy an adult? Why not just stick to the facts and if he's a "teacher".. answer legitimate questions instead of puffing himself all up and resorting to insults? Geez.. he claims to have students... glad I'm not one of them.
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So here is a question for the musicians and die hard quality audio lovers.
If you use some sort of external battery powered preamp (Sound professionals,Coresound) created specially for mini-jack microphones, will the SPL, distortion and sound quality compaints cease?
I did this with y m iRiver ihp120 and it helped some. If hte H2 pres 'suck' why not by pass them. Is there a way to preamp an external mic (sound professionals binaurals/cardiods) to a line level ?
Thanks. I'm a newbie on the forum. A musician of 28 years and a taping freak. I'll record anything, just to listen back and love it. My iRiver ihp-120 went down and rather than restore the parts and then have to do that in two years again, I'm looking at the H2 with the transcend 8G SD card.
Here was a thorough sample
http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/
I just wish some one would do the same with live music.
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This unit is going to fit very well in the event videography world...especially wedding videography. Stick a good lav mic on it...set it for 96/24...place it in the groom's or officiant's pocket...and you got a very good/small vocal capture device. In addition, I see the thing very useful for capturing and developing 5.1 surround ambiance at receptions...all this for a small price.
Yes...by all mean there are better recorders...but have you tried shoving a 744 in a pocket lately?
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While there is NO question this is the smallest/lowest costing flash deck to appear, qualified (with stated input conditions/loading) bench testing would go a long way to know what's up with this deck.
Technical review like done on some previous decks (like those listed below) would answer a lot of questions on what the H2 is best at doing and what most appropriate MIC/LINE deck settings might be chosen.
Short of retail purchasing and then returning in <10 days, anyone got a loaner for this purpose? PM/email me if so inclined for at least posted credit in adding to the knowledge base here in a more solid way; I'll handle the shipping both ways.
www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm)
www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/mt2496rv.htm)
www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm)
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This unit is going to fit very well in the event videography world...especially wedding videography. Stick a good lav mic on it...set it for 96/24...place it in the groom's or officiant's pocket...and you got a very good/small vocal capture device.
Bride to groom - "Are you really pleased to see me, or is that just a Zoom H2 in your pocket?"
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So here is a question for the musicians and die hard quality audio lovers.
If you use some sort of external battery powered preamp (Sound professionals,Coresound) created specially for mini-jack microphones, will the SPL, distortion and sound quality compaints cease?
I did this with y m iRiver ihp120 and it helped some. If hte H2 pres 'suck' why not by pass them. Is there a way to preamp an external mic (sound professionals binaurals/cardiods) to a line level ?
Thanks. I'm a newbie on the forum. A musician of 28 years and a taping freak. I'll record anything, just to listen back and love it. My iRiver ihp-120 went down and rather than restore the parts and then have to do that in two years again, I'm looking at the H2 with the transcend 8G SD card.
Here was a thorough sample
http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/
I just wish some one would do the same with live music.
to answer your question, the h2 has a line in. mics > preamp/batt.box > line in
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My H2 is due to arrive today. I'll make some sample recordings and post them. I'll record my band playing a show this weekend. I'll make a side by side comparison recording with my mini-disc recorder.
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This what we NEED to know... Can it be used to get decent quality recording of a band with just the built in mics.. Look forward to someone doing this.
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This what we NEED to know... Can it be used to get decent quality recording of a band with just the built in mics.. Look forward to someone doing this.
First of all... I'm no audio-pro, but I'm learning. ;-) I'm curious how you can quantify if a recording of a live band is "decent" or not? I was at a bar last night getting some wild sound and general ambience. In the other side of the bar was a band playing that was... well, IMHO... awful. And the PA sounded like it was a bargain-bin special from Radio Shack. So even if I'd tried to record them.. AND had got an acurate recording.. it still would have sounded like garbage, ie. garbage in, garbage out. So, should the live source in these test recording be qualified? Or, can you tell if the recording is good, even if the quality of the PA blows?
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This what we NEED to know... Can it be used to get decent quality recording of a band with just the built in mics.. Look forward to someone doing this.
I'll have an answer this weekend. My band is playing both friday and saturday night. We are a loud ramones style punk band. I've gotten excellent recordings from my mini-disc recorder. We'll soon find out if the H2 records just as well with internal mics.
My H2 was delivered today.
So far it is very light and very much made of plastic. I'd be afraid to drop it on a hard floor. I don't think it would survive.
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There's a fairly lengthy podcast review at http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/ (http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/) if folks want to check it out. It's not a technical, audio review but one more of the fit, finish and basic functions of the recorder. Anyway, I think it's worth listening to.
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There's a fairly lengthy podcast review at http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/ (http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/) if folks want to check it out. It's not a technical, audio review but one more of the fit, finish and basic functions of the recorder. Anyway, I think it's worth listening to.
Yeah, as already referred to earlier. Actually it's recorded entirely on the H2 (apart from some H4 bits for comparison) and deals extensively with the sound quality with the built in mics under various circumstances, together with some external mic samples - so I'd say it was very much an audio review, and listening to it all the way through should give people a pretty good impression of the H2. On the site I've pointed out a few possible small inaccuracies with the review, though.
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There's a fairly lengthy podcast review at http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/ (http://mefeedia.com/entry/3423836/) if folks want to check it out. It's not a technical, audio review but one more of the fit, finish and basic functions of the recorder. Anyway, I think it's worth listening to.
Yeah, as already referred to earlier.
Whoops!! Sorry, missed that post. ::)
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I've made a few test recordings on my Zoom H2 - just talking into the recorder - and it sounds pretty good so far. I found that you CAN adjust the record volume while it's recording. And it DOES have a hold funtion. pressing and holding the MENU button for 2 seconds puts the recorder into the HOLD mode to prevent accidentally stopping a recording. The manual says the power switch and the three-way mic gain switch can still be used during the HOLD mode. So you still have to be careful to not bump those two switches. This weekend I'll make some live, bar band recordings.
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I'm curious how you can quantify if a recording of a live band is "decent" or not?
I guess by decent I'm wondering if the sound causes the recordings to brickwall and distort... Decent, as bar music goes is just a matter of taste. I hate half of my recordings.
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I'm curious how you can quantify if a recording of a live band is "decent" or not?
Decent for me is a recording that sounds good enough to want to listen to it more than once. A recording that captures the low end of the bass, clear enough to hear the singing, some audience noise but not too much. If the sound person makes a good mix at the show you should get a decent recording. with a bad mix - vocals too quiet, or guitars too loud or too quiet, it's out of your hands, but your recorder can still make a "decent" recording of the bad mix.
when I compare my old cassette recording with my mini-disc recordings the new recording are by far more "decent" better quality of recording. the cassettes tend to be less clear, less low end, less definition between instruments.
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I'm curious how you can quantify if a recording of a live band is "decent" or not?
Hey skip! The way you quantify it is to record something that sounds nice, not some PA that sounds bad, then listen to your recording. How does it sound? Would you listen to it again? Would you give it to somebody else to listen to? Many years ago (78?) a guy I knew went to the Ramones concert at the Armadillo World Headquarters and recorded it using one of those old cassette recorders. He said after the show that he thought it sounded pretty good, then the next day he listened to it and realized how bad it was. :)
The point being, can you listen to your recording a few days later and still enjoy it? If so, it's decent, or at least decent enough for you. As you know, I'm pretty spoiled when it comes to audio, and I'm not sure the H2 would live up to my standards, but I freely admit I'm spoiled. That said, if it works for you, who cares what I think.
I'm still working on your mic question, thought I would pop in here and see if folks had used an external mic with the H2. Doesn't sound like too many have, at least not self-powered full size mics.
Skip, several times you mentioned recording at 96/24. What happens at 44.1 or 48/24? Does the unit not sound as good? FYI, the only time I record at 96 K on my Deva is when I'm recording acoustic music or orchestras. There isn't a need to use a sample rate that high. The big bang for your buck is 16 > 24, not 44.1 or 48 > 96 or 96 > 192...
Wayne
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There's a full review of the H2 up on O'Reilly's site, including samples and links to H2 5:1 surround encoders:
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2007/09/13/review-zoom-h2-surround-recorder.html?page=1
Craig
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There's a full review of the H2 up on O'Reilly's site, including samples and links to H2 5:1 surround encoders:
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2007/09/13/review-zoom-h2-surround-recorder.html?page=1
Craig
Kudos Craig for excellent review link with first really good sounding recordings done with H2 internal mics. Makes me think internal mic response graph showing 10 db down at ~70 cycles is not telling enough on what's possible in the lower octaves; maybe it's simple proximity effect boosting the bass on some of the sample musical recordings?
It's starting to look like the H2 is worth the price of admission, which is not much to pay considering.
Now to get one and see what the external analog inputs can do in a technical type review! Keep you posted for sure.
O'Reilly review also with a ton of other links on surround recording/techniques/software. VERY informative and what I've been looking for at least on the subject of converting stereo to surround formats.
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Just a not on the H2 pre amps.
I just field tested the H2 at a wedding reception, micin the DJ's Bose audio stack.
I accidetilly had teh H2's pre amps set to M (Medium), and all was good for the first portion of the reception. That is until the DJ royally cranked up the board output, which sounded like crap in the recption veue, when he did, but what ya gonna do. Anyway, when I had a chance to check the H2's audio input in my headphones, I noticed that the H2 was distoring extremely heavy.
The audio was distorting in a high squelching sort of way, and was totally unusable. I turned the pre amp to L (Low), and all was good.
I had the audio level set to 102, to avoid the limiter issue when the H2 is set below 100.
Anyway, the H2 did perform well, before the extreme sound increase and flawlessly after I changed the pre amp to Low.
So the key is that I must remember to set my pre's on low, or I could be stuck with a useless squelching mess.
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Just a not on the H2 pre amps.
I just field tested the H2 at a wedding reception, micin the DJ's Bose audio stack.
I accidetilly had teh H2's pre amps set to M (Medium), and all was good for the first portion of the reception. That is until the DJ royally cranked up the board output, which sounded like crap in the recption veue, when he did, but what ya gonna do. Anyway, when I had a chance to check the H2's audio input in my headphones, I noticed that the H2 was distoring extremely heavy.
The audio was distorting in a high squelching sort of way, and was totally unusable. I turned the pre amp to L (Low), and all was good.
I had the audio level set to 102, to avoid the limiter issue when the H2 is set below 100.
Anyway, the H2 did perform well, before the extreme sound increase and flawlessly after I changed the pre amp to Low.
So the key is that I must remember to set my pre's on low, or I could be stuck with a useless squelching mess.
What kind of mic did you use?
Seems the H2 did OK with better choice of setting, but with using the same mics and trying same setting for usually much bass louder Rock/Pop club/concert venue I'm wondering if deck has enough headroom margins to not need mic having bass filter or mic pad for clean recording.
Hope to have H2 by end of week for doing input frequency response plots and signal sensitivity tests for knowing what to expect from this tiny inexpensive recorder that seems to have gotten a lot of good press already.
As alway, plan to keep TS posted on the details.
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Just a not on the H2 pre amps.
I just field tested the H2 at a wedding reception, micin the DJ's Bose audio stack.
I accidetilly had teh H2's pre amps set to M (Medium), and all was good for the first portion of the reception. That is until the DJ royally cranked up the board output, which sounded like crap in the recption veue, when he did, but what ya gonna do. Anyway, when I had a chance to check the H2's audio input in my headphones, I noticed that the H2 was distoring extremely heavy.
The audio was distorting in a high squelching sort of way, and was totally unusable. I turned the pre amp to L (Low), and all was good.
I had the audio level set to 102, to avoid the limiter issue when the H2 is set below 100.
Anyway, the H2 did perform well, before the extreme sound increase and flawlessly after I changed the pre amp to Low.
So the key is that I must remember to set my pre's on low, or I could be stuck with a useless squelching mess.
What kind of mic did you use?
Seems the H2 did OK with better choice of setting, but with using the same mics and trying same setting for usually much bass louder Rock/Pop club/concert venue I'm wondering if deck has enough headroom margins to not need mic having bass filter or mic pad for clean recording.
Hope to have H2 by end of week for doing input frequency response plots and signal sensitivity tests for knowing what to expect from this tiny inexpensive recorder that seems to have gotten a lot of good press already.
As alway, plan to keep TS posted on the details.
Thanks! I appreciate any tech talk you can provide...
Richard
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Just a not on the H2 pre amps.
I just field tested the H2 at a wedding reception, micin the DJ's Bose audio stack.
I accidetilly had teh H2's pre amps set to M (Medium), and all was good for the first portion of the reception. That is until the DJ royally cranked up the board output, which sounded like crap in the recption veue, when he did, but what ya gonna do. Anyway, when I had a chance to check the H2's audio input in my headphones, I noticed that the H2 was distoring extremely heavy.
The audio was distorting in a high squelching sort of way, and was totally unusable. I turned the pre amp to L (Low), and all was good.
I had the audio level set to 102, to avoid the limiter issue when the H2 is set below 100.
Anyway, the H2 did perform well, before the extreme sound increase and flawlessly after I changed the pre amp to Low.
So the key is that I must remember to set my pre's on low, or I could be stuck with a useless squelching mess.
What kind of mic did you use?
Seems the H2 did OK with better choice of setting, but with using the same mics and trying same setting for usually much bass louder Rock/Pop club/concert venue I'm wondering if deck has enough headroom margins to not need mic having bass filter or mic pad for clean recording.
Hope to have H2 by end of week for doing input frequency response plots and signal sensitivity tests for knowing what to expect from this tiny inexpensive recorder that seems to have gotten a lot of good press already.
As alway, plan to keep TS posted on the details.
Sorry for the late response.
I was using the built in mics only for this test.
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hello everyone, this is my first post in this forum and i have a dumb question
could someone please clearify if the H2 can be used with external electret microphones just as the H4?
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hello everyone, this is my first post in this forum and i have a dumb question
could someone please clearify if the H2 can be used with external electret microphones just as the H4?
YES, H2 has stereo minijack external MIC input, but who knows yet if there's electret type mic power?
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Yes, you can use the same mics as with an MD recorder - 3V power? - it's in the manual.
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Here are a couple clips I made of my band recorded with the Zoom H2. The setting was 24bit 96k. rear mics-120 degrees pointing toward the stage - set about 30 feet from the front of the stage on a mic stand about 6 feet high. The drums were mic'd through the PA. I bumped the file down to 44k 16 bit. and then down to MP3 for posting here.
The recorder was set on the LOW mic gain setting with the record volume set at 115. No internal compression or limiting. No auto-gain.
The first clip is the file RAW - no EQ or any changes.
The second clip is the previous file with some mastering applied with T-Racks - EQ and compression added.
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5789635&q=hi
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5789642&q=hi
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Here are a couple clips I made of my band recorded with the Zoom H2. The setting was 24bit 96k. rear mics-120 degrees pointing toward the stage - set about 30 feet from the front of the stage on a mic stand about 6 feet high. The drums were mic'd through the PA. I bumped the file down to 44k 16 bit. and then down to MP3 for posting here.
The recorder was set on the LOW mic gain setting with the record volume set at 115. No internal compression or limiting. No auto-gain.
The first clip is the file RAW - no EQ or any changes.
The second clip is the previous file with some mastering applied with T-Racks - EQ and compression added.
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5789635&q=hi
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5789642&q=hi
I sometimes record exceptionally complex acoustic sounds like piano/string instruments, full orchestra/chorus with a ton of harmonic related content.
And I can't help but think the choices with downsampling DO affect a recordings qualities in ways quite noticeable.
There's no choice of 88.2K sample rate on the H2 so downsampling to 48K is at least technically wiser if not easily audible.
With 96K, NOT possible for having (whole-integer; sample timing/musical harmonics) flawless processing to 44.1K CD rate.
If not absolutely needing 44.1K for something from a 96K sampled master, suggest downsampling (whole integer/no fractions) to 48K rate instead, making potentially better quality encoding.
Of course, many might argue, by not ever hearing quality difference between whole integer and fractional downsampling. However, it's hard to dismiss preferring technically-purer integer methods that could be viewed as having nearly exact 'bit-for-bit' type conversion accuracy.
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If not absolutely needing 44.1K for something from a 96K sampled master, suggest downsampling (whole integer/no fractions) to 48K rate instead, making potentially better quality encoding.
Thanks, I learned something new today. :) :)
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First off, I would like to state that this is a terrific thread, on a terrific forum. I've learned quite a bit here just from poking my head in to a few doors. Thank you all.
I have a side business of shooting concert videos for bands, and I've been looking for a better way to record audio than the in camera mics. It was a toss up between this and the R-09. I decided to get a Zoom H2, and so far I've been very impressed with it.
Once I have some footage shot that is cleared for release, I'll post up some samples...in the mean time, I'm going to work on cleaning up the audio. It does sound a little hollow. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with placement and whatnot, but can anyone give me some advice on what settings would be helpful for me? And what can I do to clean up what I have?
Again, thank you for a wonderful forum!
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Here are a couple clips I made of my band recorded with the Zoom H2. The setting was 24bit 96k. rear mics-120 degrees pointing toward the stage - set about 30 feet from the front of the stage on a mic stand about 6 feet high. The drums were mic'd through the PA. I bumped the file down to 44k 16 bit. and then down to MP3 for posting here.
The recorder was set on the LOW mic gain setting with the record volume set at 115. No internal compression or limiting. No auto-gain.
The first clip is the file RAW - no EQ or any changes.
The second clip is the previous file with some mastering applied with T-Racks - EQ and compression added.
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5789635&q=hi
http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5789642&q=hi
Nice clips, thanks for posting them.
One question on your recording setup.
You mentioned that the H2 was 30 feet away from the stage.
But, where was the H2 actually placed. Was it Center, Right, Left of the stage?
Also, how were the drums mic'd? You mentioned through the PA.
Did you just setup your H2 in a specific location and relied on the onboard mics to pickup the drums through the PA stack?
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Nice clips, thanks for posting them.
One question on your recording setup.
You mentioned that the H2 was 30 feet away from the stage.
But, where was the H2 actually placed. Was it Center, Right, Left of the stage?
Also, how were the drums mic'd? You mentioned through the PA.
Did you just setup your H2 in a specific location and relied on the onboard mics to pickup the drums through the PA stack?
The H2 was placed in the center - directly inline with the front of the stage. the PA speakers were about 15 or 20 feet apart from each other hanging from the ceiling above the stage. Subwoofers were on the floor in front of the stage. The kick had a mic - I think it was poking into the hole on the front of the head. the hi-hat had a mic, the snare had a mic, I don't remember if there was an over head drum mic. I'd guess that the floor tom and rack tom had mics too. these went into the PA mix. the bass was a 70s SVT into 6 x 10 cab with a direct box after the bass and before the amp. The guitar amp was a marshall JCM 800 with one of the speakers mic'd into the PA. I don't really know how much of the bass and guitar were in the PA mix or just the amp sound from the stage.
The H2 was set to record with the internal 120 degree mics.
The bar had a lot of metal ceiling tiles and hard walls It's a loud room - even an acoustic duo seemed too loud.
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the 1st recording ive seen circulating using the H2 (by my favorite band, ta boot!)
http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=162994
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I'm curious how you can quantify if a recording of a live band is "decent" or not?
Hey skip! The way you quantify it is to record something that sounds nice, not some PA that sounds bad, then listen to your recording. How does it sound? Would you listen to it again? Would you give it to somebody else to listen to? Many years ago (78?) a guy I knew went to the Ramones concert at the Armadillo World Headquarters and recorded it using one of those old cassette recorders. He said after the show that he thought it sounded pretty good, then the next day he listened to it and realized how bad it was. :)
The point being, can you listen to your recording a few days later and still enjoy it? If so, it's decent, or at least decent enough for you. As you know, I'm pretty spoiled when it comes to audio, and I'm not sure the H2 would live up to my standards, but I freely admit I'm spoiled. That said, if it works for you, who cares what I think.
I'm still working on your mic question, thought I would pop in here and see if folks had used an external mic with the H2. Doesn't sound like too many have, at least not self-powered full size mics.
Skip, several times you mentioned recording at 96/24. What happens at 44.1 or 48/24? Does the unit not sound as good? FYI, the only time I record at 96 K on my Deva is when I'm recording acoustic music or orchestras. There isn't a need to use a sample rate that high. The big bang for your buck is 16 > 24, not 44.1 or 48 > 96 or 96 > 192...
Wayne
Wayne, I did sample recordings at each and the 96/24 just seemed like it had more detail to me. The other settings sounded fine, but to my ears... 96/24 had a more refined sound.
Regarding how you qualify good recordings... etc. I meant that more based on when you hear someone's sample recording... and it either sounds great, or it sounds horrible.. as a third party who wasn't there and doesn't know what the conditions were or the quality of the PA.. how can anyone make any honest evaluations from this? Seems like too many variables. I used an example of going to the bar down the street and recording the band who was playing. They sounded horrible, and the PA was horrible. Not worth recording. But, let's say I DID record it and the H2 had done a flawless job and reproducing just had bad it was. Someone who wasn't there might say the H2 sounded horrible.. when the PA was to blame.
Regarding the H2 not being for you.. and you being "spoiled", etc. No, I don't suppose it would. You don't mind carrying alot of extra gear, mics, cables, pluggin into the board, etc. When I first asked you about portable recording devices.. my criteria was something that sounded decent, with care could also sound very good, easy to use, standard battery power, and small enough to fit in a pocket of my camera bag in case I want to capture some ambient sound of a "place" I'm photographing. The H2 meets ALL of this criteria in spades. If I was earning a few bucks going to record live sound for bands, or dialogue... and thats ALL I was doing.. I'd carry more gear like you and have a different "rig" with the best mics and preamps I could find. But, that's not what I'm doing, so the H2 fits perfect.
Thanks for looking into the cable question. I'm just baffled as to why some of my external mic recommendation and cable requirement questions have been soooooo difficult to get a straight answer on. I tried to get the answer in another thread and got many answers that conflicted with each other. Who are you supposed to listen to?
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I've tried my Sennheiser ME66 (self-powered) with and without a line-matching transformer. I've also tried a RODE NT2 and NT3. Both self-powered but the RODE NT2 shotgun gives me such a low signal when powered that it's completely unusable. I thought maybe there was something wrong and it wasn't getting power. But I tried it on my friend's HVX200 without camera-supplied phantom power and it worked just fine. Must be some incompatibility with the H2. Strange that my ME 66 works fine though.
I've also tried a little Sony ECM-717. It's a little consumer mic powered by a watch battery. http://reviews.cnet.com/microphones/sony-ecm-717/4507-6469_7-20038201.html?tag=nav
It doesn't seem to matter much if the "plug-in" power is turned on or not. With the H2s plugin power turned on and the Sony turned off.. it's not really supplying the mic with anywhere near enough juice to get a decent signal. If the plugin power doesn't help with a little powered consumer mic.. what the heck is it for? And, even with it self-powered I have to have the H2's gain on HI and the level cranked up to about 125.
I also tried a little Sony ECM-DS70P http://reviews.cnet.com/microphones/sony-ecm-ds70p/4505-6469_7-20648800.html
This mic is not self-powered and I get nothing from it unless I turn on the "plug-in" power. Even still, the signal is pretty weak and I have to have "plugin" power turned on.
I've also noticed that with any and all of these mics so far.. when recording and getting an acceptable level.. if ANYTHING jumps up a bit, I frequently get this sound like the mic has hit some "ceiling"? It just abruptly sort of gives you this jarring sound like you've just thumped the end of the mic. You can get a good recording if you're very careful and the source audio is fairly steady. However, the mics on the H2 seem to be MUCH more forgiving. If I get out of range, it just distorts a little. Never this jarring "thumped" sound. Do you know what's going on? Someone said I might be overloading the preamps.. but doesn't the external jack use the same pres as the onboard mics? If so, why would I ONLY have the problem with external mics?
It's appearing that not just any mic will work well as an external mic with the H2. I'm hoping that someone with access to many more mics dials in the perfect external mics to use, because my results have been all over the place.
Thoughts about what's going on? And or, a suggestion on the best all-around external mic to use with the H2? Best shotgun for dialogue to use with the H2? Best external mic for environmental ambient sounds?
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Probably already mentioned here....but the H2 won't do a 2gb seamless split....
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A note on the O'reilly H2 forum leads to photos of the
recorder's interior. Let the mods begin! See
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/aramri/Zoom_H2/
Flintstone
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Why did they cross the mics, thus partly covering one mic with another, rather than having them pointing outwards in a kind of tight square?
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Why did they cross the mics, thus partly covering one mic with another, rather than having them pointing outwards in a kind of tight square?
Looks to me a front/back M-S mic array?
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A note on the O'reilly H2 forum leads to photos of the
recorder's interior. Let the mods begin! See
http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/aramri/Zoom_H2/
Flintstone
Do you got a reference to who took these pictures?
I having trouble reading the chip numbers.
Richard
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The note on the O'Reilly site was posted by "greenmachine."
The Photobucket album is called "aramri." There are no
links on these sites to send a message to these people.
If you join the O'Rielly group, you might post a note
to the forum asking for higher resolution photos.
http://www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/2007/04/zoom_h2_digital_recorder_detai.html
Flintstone
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Looks to me a front/back M-S mic array?
It's simply, as advertised, a pair pointing forwards at 90 degrees and a pair pointing backwards at 120 degrees (defining front and back here can be tricky!). And I suspect that if you wanted you could derive a pseudo-MS pair from that in post production. But why have the rightward-pointing mic (of each pair) to the left of the leftward pointing mic, thus potentially confusing the stereo image as audio coming from the left will reach the rightward pointing mic first, etc etc? Though from the recordings I've downloaded from the net, the imaging does seem perfectly good.
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Thanks to all who have posted H2 recordings.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFsd-l82gFA
Here is footage I shot on Friday night, with audio from the H2. The Zoom was in the venue's balcony, and I recorded with the rear mic array. The right stereo channel is a bit muddled, because I had it setup too close to a wall...live and learn, eh?
I'm very very impressed with the sound quality out of this thing.
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Probably already mentioned here....but the H2 won't do a 2gb seamless split....
Anyone else confirm this?
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Probably already mentioned here....but the H2 won't do a 2gb seamless split....
Anyone else confirm this?
I would love to get a confirmation too.....
Is that true with a 4gb or more, you can only record 2gb because the h2 won't split the track ? ???
Tks for any infos.
Semayat
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The H2 does a auto track split at 2GB, so a continuous
recording using a 4GB card will result in two big files.
A card advertised as 4 GB doesn't have that much capacity
after formatting. It's more like 3.8 GB.
Two channels at 16/44.1 = 635 MB per hour
so a 3.8GB card will hold almost 6 hours of recordings
Two channels at 24/48 = 1037 MB per hour
That's a little more than 3.5 hours of recordings.
Regarding price, 4 GB SDHC cards from A-Data,
Transcend and Ridata cost $35-$40 each.
The 8GB SDHC from the same manufacturers
cost $70-$75. So there's a slight dollar advantage
going with the 8GB rather than 2 4GB cards.
When flash cards appear in larger sizes, some
people always say, "No way would I trust my recordings
to a 2X card. I'll stick with my dependable size X card."
First it was 512MB vs 1GB, then 1GB vs 2GB, and
2GB vs 4GB. Now it's 4GB vs 8GB.
Don't sweat it. The 8GB cards work OK. If you need
the space to record at 24/96, or just to record for many
hours, the 8GB card is the answer.
Flintstone
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When flash cards appear in larger sizes, some
people always say, "No way would I trust my recordings
to a 2X card. I'll stick with my dependable size X card."
First it was 512MB vs 1GB, then 1GB vs 2GB, and
2GB vs 4GB. Now it's 4GB vs 8GB.
Don't sweat it. The 8GB cards work OK. If you need
the space to record at 24/96, or just to record for many
hours, the 8GB card is the answer.
My 8GB Transcend card is working fine. no problems.
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I had initially posted this to "ask the tapesrs" but as I didn't get any reply I am moving it here.
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Hi guys, first posting here, please be kind.
I have just purchased a Zoom H2 to record West African drumming rehersals and performances.
When I try to record, the mic indicator occasionally blinks (indicating distorsion) regardless of how low I keep the recording levels.
The mic gain is set to low, of course.
The strange thing is that the levels don't seem to have much impact at all on the light blinking unless I set them so high that I reach 0db, in which case it is expected.
Is this a limitation of the mics with very loud noises?
Any suggestion as to how to work around the problem?
I have tried compression but it doesn't make any difference.
Thanks.
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The H2 does a auto track split at 2GB, so a continuous
recording using a 4GB card will result in two big files.
I saw a review on Amazon that states there is a space between the two files. Is there a buffer/cache going on while the 2nd file is started?
Here's the review:
1 of 1 people found the following review helpful:
Minor H2 quibbles, September 25, 2007
By Robert G. Huenemann (Hollister, CA USA) - See all my reviews
(REAL NAME)
I am very impressed with the Zoom H2. I have two minor gripes.
The 'mic active' LEDs double as overload indicators. They would be more useful if the 'mic active' LED for the front mic was located on the rear of the unit, and vice versa.
I purchased a 4 SDHC Gigabyte card for my unit. I ran a test at 96 kHz and 24 bit depth. After 1 hour, 2 minutes and 8 seconds, the recorder starts a second file. Unfortunately, this takes several seconds to accomplish.
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When I try to record, the mic indicator occasionally blinks (indicating distorsion) regardless of how low I keep the recording levels.
When I first tried recording loud bands with the H2, I also noticed the mic indicator light blinking - indicating that it was overloading, yet the recorded file actually had the levels set too low. So now I just ignore the blinking light and set my levels acording to what the level meters indicate.
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There's two things to consider when setting levels on the H2 - first, the level at the mic preamp, and second, the level after the analog to digital converter. If you get the first one wrong, there's nothing you can do with the second to put it right.
The first level control is the three position switch. If the little light flashes, reduce the level at the switch. If the light flashes when on the lowest setting, the level reaching the mics is too high for them to cope with. Move back if you can, or get the performers to play more quietly!
The 1-127 control is simply amplifying (positive or negative) the digits coming out of the analog to digital converter. It seems from comments elsewhere that a level of 100 neither amplifies nor reduces level - it's the "straight through" setting. If you reduce the level below 100 to try to cope with overloads, you'll probably not succeed because the overload has already happened at the mic preamp. So, don't set a level below 100. If you increase the level above 100, you're doing the same as using digital zoom on a camera, which is generally held to be a Bad Thing - there's no point in doing it in the H2 if you have the opportunity later to do it in PC audio software. The outcome will be exactly the same. If you increase the level in the H2 you might overdo it leading to digital clipping and distortion. But if you do it in the PC later, your software should be able to scan the already-recorded file and "normalise" it so that the highest peaks exactly reach the top of the meter scale. You're working with the benefit of hindsight.
The same applies to the limiters etc within the H2 - they apparently work in the digital domain and the only time they should be used is if you can't use a PC to do the same thing later. So, if you are playing back direct from the H2 and don't have the means to post process the audio in a PC, then use the limiters and increase the level above 100 if you want. But if you are going to use your PC software for postproduction, leave everything "flat" when recording (level at 100, all effects off), because you can't undo those operations later if you've recorded them in the H2.
Note that all the above comes from reading the net and the manual - I still await the arrival of the H2 here in Australia - so if anyone who has an H2 can correct my advice, go for it!
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Thanks Ozpeter for the explanation. Since I posted my question I have also found info elsewhere on the net to confirm exactly what you are saying.
Knowing this helps tremendously in trying to obtain a good recoding, however I confess that I find the whole arrangement quite limiting. Perhaps it won't be so in real life.
I guess if this becomes a frequent issue I will be left with two options: Getting a recorder with a better variable analog gain control (through a rocker switch) or using an external mic with some sort of gain control?
Is this design typical of all budget digital recorders, such as R-09, or is it specific to the H2 and H4?
What is the best way to reduce the gain of an external Mic before it hits the A/D converter of the H2?
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So 100 is the unity gain for the H2?
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Thank you very much, Ozpeter. That was well written.
So this opens up the larger can of worms...post production. What exactly do the limiters do, and how can you recreate that on a PC? That may be out of the scope of this thread, though. Any suggestions on a place to go from here?
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Recreating the H2 limiter on a PC is reasonably easy if you have suitable software. Personally I mostly use "Reaper" (www.reaper.fm) for audio post production work. It currently costs a modest $40 but that's likely to increase shortly when version 2.0 is released - which will be a free upgrade from version 1.0
Once you've installed a program like that which can use VST effects, you can either use the effects that come with it or download others from the net - many of them free. For instance, the "Classic" range of effects (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-series.php) includes a very good and simple limiter, as well as a compressor and reverb, etc. Many other free limiters are available, and compressors, each with their particular characteristics. Apply limiting or compression after the recording is done does enable you to try the various options non-destructively - using the H2 limiter during recording means you're stuck with the result forever.
But it's often going to be better to normalise the recording - so that the loudest peaks just get to the top of the scale at 0dB - rather than limit. Limiting does reduce the dynamic range, and typically is used when you're not quite sure how loud the loudest peaks will be. Normalising can only be done after recording when you know the highest peak, so in postproduction that's the way to get the recording as loud as possible without compressing the original dynamic range between the quietest and loudest parts of the the performance.
As for the relative crudity of the H2 input level control - the three position switch - well, that's one step more than you get with a Hi-MD recorder, which simply offers high and low. I'm not sure about other such devices. Small inexpensive rotary input level controls can be hard to set accurately and may give rise to scratchiness in time.
I believe the switch on the H2 operates in 10dB steps. That means that the worst possible case would be a recording peaking at say -9.9dB (if you'd raised the sensitivity 10dB you'd have just clipped the recording by .1dB). That's no disaster, realistically - it means that the digital noise floor will end up 10dB higher than it would if you'd peaked to 0dB but the analog noise floor is going to be much more significant anyway. And in real-world conditions you'd probably actually occasionally peak a bit higher than -10dB.
I record a lot of classical music, professionally, and on my mic preamp gain control I have made a little red mark which represents the level that in almost all cases I use. So although I have a rotary control, if it had just one click position at that red mark, it would very often be all that would be required. That's because if I'm recording a symphony orchestra the main mic pair will be high up and back a bit. If it's a string quartet, the mics will be much closer. So the sound level arriving at the mic gets evened out by using the natural attenuation of distance. Performers ask me what they should play in rehearsal for me to get the levels right, but I tend to tell them that I know the level anyway! So, if the H2 designers have made a good choice of the preset levels available, it should be no disaster in practice.
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Incidentally - Reaper can be installed onto removable USB devices - it doesn't have to be installed onto your actual PC. So it should be possible to install it onto the H2 itself (it takes little space), so that after recording you could plug the H2 into any PC that comes to hand, run Reaper from the H2, and edit away. Could be a realistic scenario for reporters in the field. I've not tried it on the H2 but I have on another USB-enabled recording device. Neat trick!
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Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying Reaper, my files are starting to sound even better.
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That's good! The end-user-written manual is actually pretty good, and their forum is helpful and supportive for new users if you run into any problems.
Meanwhile it sounds like my H2 is now in the post to me at last!
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Kinda off topic for the way this thread's been moving, but I'm curious...
Is there some sort of foam like a windscreen inside the wire mesh over the mics? I can't tell 100% from the photos I'm looking at.
Also, I keep seeing handling noise come up. Has anyone used oen to record a live show and had it be an issue? (using the internal mics)
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I'm not sure if there is a foam windscreen inside the recorder, but it did come with a slip on foam windscreen...it kinda makes the whole thing look like it has an afro!
I've not had any issues with handling noise during a show, but I also have been recording with it in a mic stand...
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Also, I keep seeing handling noise come up. Has anyone used oen to record a live show and had it be an issue? (using the internal mics)
I recorded a loud show with the H2 in my front shirt pocket with the mic sticking out. I didn't hear any handling noise on the recording.
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(http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1fwhLKLj08oRcxXz0IXrqtME3dTK_thumb.jpg) (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1fwhLKLj08oRcxXz0IXrqtME3dTK)
Dead kitten from a Rode SVM mic in use on the H2 - fits nicely!
There's some sort of foam-like material inside the metal grille (you can't see in through the grille) but the H2 is pretty sensitive to wind noise. The manual suggests attaching the handle to the H2 and holding it with a glove to reduce handling noise. If you don't mind the look, that should work pretty well. Elsewhere I've seen a neat shockmount for the H2 devised by a user - a U shaped metal tube into which the H2 fits with thick rubber bands.
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I recorded a loud show with the H2 in my front shirt pocket with the mic sticking out. I didn't hear any handling noise on the recording.
That's my highly sophisticated recording plan in a nutshell. Glad to hear it works. Thanks for the info.
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(http://www.pixentral.com/hosted/1fwhLKLj08oRcxXz0IXrqtME3dTK_thumb.jpg) (http://www.pixentral.com/show.php?picture=1fwhLKLj08oRcxXz0IXrqtME3dTK)
Dead kitten from a Rode SVM mic in use on the H2 - fits nicely!
There's some sort of foam-like material inside the metal grille (you can't see in through the grille) but the H2 is pretty sensitive to wind noise. The manual suggests attaching the handle to the H2 and holding it with a glove to reduce handling noise. If you don't mind the look, that should work pretty well. Elsewhere I've seen a neat shockmount for the H2 devised by a user - a U shaped metal tube into which the H2 fits with thick rubber bands.
All good info also, thanks much.
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I've now posted the accumulated experience of myself and others over at http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=96209#96209 in a post called "How to get the most from the Zoom H2".
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http://www.archive.org/details/PAF2007-10-21.PhilandFriends2007-10-21-16bit-ZoomH2
I used a Zoom H2 that I picked up in an emergency (my marantz 660 died Thursday night after the buffalo show)
The Wendt x2 pre amp I use can switch the XLR outs from Mic outs to LINE outs. I utilized the ZOOM's LINE IN, and was pleasantly surprised at the results. I know its not the best recorder in the world, but it worked in a pinch.
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Indeed, the H2 line input seems to have a pretty flat response and noise levels are well below the background level of most recording spaces, so it should produce perfectly reasonable results.
Meanwhile at http://www.radio.uqam.ca/ambisonic/comparative_recording.html there's an account of a test involving the H2 vs some pretty costly gear -
In September and October 2007 was held a surround sound production workshop at Oboro in Montreal. On October 14, we recorded an organ recital by Robert Sigmund at the Grand Séminaire de Montréal chapel using three surround microphone pickups: a Soundfield ST350, a native B-format assembly with AKG Blue Line microphones and a Zoom H2 portable digital recorder. Here is an account of the recording session with pictures and audio samples.
Audio samples have yet to be posted but it should make interesting listening in due course!
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http://www.archive.org/details/PAF2007-10-21.PhilandFriends2007-10-21-16bit-ZoomH2
I used a Zoom H2 that I picked up in an emergency (my marantz 660 died Thursday night after the buffalo show)
The Wendt x2 pre amp I use can switch the XLR outs from Mic outs to LINE outs. I utilized the ZOOM's LINE IN, and was pleasantly surprised at the results. I know its not the best recorder in the world, but it worked in a pinch.
Would you rate it in the ball park of a JB3 or H120?
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I used my H2 for the 1st time last wednesday (AT>batt box>H2 line in) and the result was good. I can provide sound sample if needed...
I was not very pleased with my 2 alcaline lenght tho. And as I live in France, i can not plug the H2 with my sector, so if anyone could help me out that would be great :)
Semayat
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The Wendt x2 pre amp I use can switch the XLR outs from Mic outs to LINE outs.
:o
Wow, I haven't seen anybody using a Wendt X2 for music recording since I used one for a year or so... I think i posted a few shows on Archive that used the X2 (I know there are a few shows I did with the Wendt X4 up there).
Cool. ;D
Wayne
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I was not very pleased with my 2 alcaline lenght tho.
Using 2600mah rechargeable batteries I've got 10 hours line-in recording with my H2.
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http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=167037
check the 2 samples made with a 20$ !!! mic and the H2.
sounds excellent!
the taper PMed me the settings he used for this show:
"ext mics* to mic in no battery box; mic gain set to low; recording level 100** (may have pushed up to 110 - sorry, can't remember :o) ); about center , close as I could get to the 'sweet spot'; manual control no AGC/limiter/compressor. *mics are each side demin jacket collar **level boosted after tf to pc
new toy so still playing..."
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http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=167037
check the 2 samples made with a 20$ !!! mic and the H2.
sounds excellent!
:o :o
Anyone tested H2 with Church mics?
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not that im aware, but on the archive, theres a camper van beethoven show using an h2 and at853 w/ hypers
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not that im aware, but on the archive, theres a camper van beethoven show using an h2 and at853 w/ hypers
That show convinced me to try it, so i bought the H2.
My first recording with it, I used the internal mics at 120 degrees.
http://www.archive.org/details/LMO2007-11-02.ZOOM
ps I love the CVB!!!
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the H2 manual says when choosing a limiter(ie. limiter -concert) the gain-switch has no meaning, but it does and i still can change levels on the levelmeter?
strange....i tested it with the internal mics only.
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The version of the manual I have says "When the AGC function is active, the [MIC
GAIN] switch setting has no effect." AGC is different from the limiter. Be aware that both are destructive to your audio and should not normally be used unless you cannot process your audio in a PC later.
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I did my 1st H2-recording yesterday: placed in the front pocket of my shirt.
rear-mics(120°)
low-mic-gain
recording level 100
16bit/44.1kHz
The recording needs lots of treble-boosting and +5dB amplification in post.
Will do that later today.
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Ha, lucky me.
My H2´s LINE-IN has no signal on it´s right channel.
After 2 faulty Edirol´s R09(MIC-IN) the same with the H2 I got 2 days ago.....it actually NEVER had a signal on the right channel....when using LINE-IN.....no matter what source I use(Radio, external mic+preamp, ...)
I also can change the level when recording on LINE-IN on the 0-127 scale?
Thought this wouldn´t be possible?
By the way: firmware 1.20 was released!
http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/download/software/h2.php
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Hello,
I'm both a live concerts taper and a singer/songwriter (also plays electric rythm guitar in a band).
I'm looking for a new recorder that fits the following needs :
* can be used as a kind of external USB "sound card" to get rid of the latency provided by my current budget sound card when I'm doing multi-tracks recordings with Audacity, Cubase...
I'd mainly use the Zoom H2 to record with the following lineage :
* voice : Zoom H2 built-in mics > computer (USB)
* voice : Sony ECM-717 mic > Zoom H2 (mic-in) > computer (USB)
* acoustic guitar : (same lineage as voice)
* electric guitar : Vox AD-50-VT Amp (line-out) > Zoom H2 (line-in) > computer (USB)
* can be used as a loud rock shows/rehearsals recorder (120dB SPL at least!) with the following lineage :
SP-BMC-12 > SP Batt Box w/bass roll-off (no preamp!) > Zoom H2 (line-in)
I think I've understand (I'm not a native english speaker) that the Zoom H2 line-in won't do it for loud situations if you don't have a preamp (the use of a battery box w/bass roll-off would'nt be enough to prevent from clipping). Is it right?
Another question for Zoom H2 users : does the recorder have a "hold" function to "freeze" the keypad when in the pocket during a live concert?
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The H2 doesn't have low latency ASIO drivers, so don't expect low latency performance using it with a PC. The mic input is generally felt to be noisy (compared say with a Hi-MD recorder). The line-in socket is slightly more sensitive than it should be. There is a hold function - hold down the menu key - but it does not stop the recorder being turned off by accident!
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The H2 doesn't have low latency ASIO drivers, so don't expect low latency performance using it with a PC.
Thank you for your answer ;)
According to a reviewer on audiofanzine.com (french music equipment related website), it is compatible with asio4all drivers and has 5ms latency at 44.1Khz when using with FLStudio (don't know about FLStudio...).
link for french users :
http://enregistreur-poche.zoom.audiofanzine.com/produits/avis/index,idproduit,108769,mao,h2_usb.html (http://enregistreur-poche.zoom.audiofanzine.com/produits/avis/index,idproduit,108769,mao,h2_usb.html)
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The H2 doesn't have low latency ASIO drivers, so don't expect low latency performance using it with a PC.
Thank you for your answer ;)
According to a reviewer on audiofanzine.com (french music equipment related website), it is compatible with asio4all drivers and has 5ms latency at 44.1Khz when using with FLStudio (don't know about FLStudio...).
link for french users :
http://enregistreur-poche.zoom.audiofanzine.com/produits/avis/index,idproduit,108769,mao,h2_usb.html (http://enregistreur-poche.zoom.audiofanzine.com/produits/avis/index,idproduit,108769,mao,h2_usb.html)
FL Studio is a sequencer/DAW program...I write the manuals/help for it :)
http://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.html
digifish
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I briefly tried it with Asio4All and found that either the input or output side didn't work, and someone elsewhere reported the same. YMMV - it's well worth the small download anyway.
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
WOW!...that bears further investigation!
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
Get a voltmeter and see if your SP battery box is OUTPUTTING DC into the right channel.
Just connect the voltmeter to ground and the output pin of the box's output connector (not connected to anything else)
It should measure at or near 0 volts. Some decks have a DC decoupling capacitor that helps protect the input from applied DC, but maybe H2 has too little protection if given too much unexpected DC power input?
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
Get a voltmeter and see if your SP battery box is OUTPUTTING DC into the right channel.
Just connect the voltmeter to ground and the output pin of the box's output connector (not connected to anything else)
It should measure at or near 0 volts. Some decks have a DC decoupling capacitor that helps protect the input from applied DC, but maybe H2 has too little protection if given too much unexpected DC power input?
i just measured the output with a connected 3.5mm cable plugged in.
the TOP-ring of the plug shows: 150mV
the middle ring shows: 80mV
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
Get a voltmeter and see if your SP battery box is OUTPUTTING DC into the right channel.
Just connect the voltmeter to ground and the output pin of the box's output connector (not connected to anything else)
It should measure at or near 0 volts. Some decks have a DC decoupling capacitor that helps protect the input from applied DC, but maybe H2 has too little protection if given too much unexpected DC power input?
Given his history - perhaps this is true of the R9 as well??
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
Get a voltmeter and see if your SP battery box is OUTPUTTING DC into the right channel.
Just connect the voltmeter to ground and the output pin of the box's output connector (not connected to anything else)
It should measure at or near 0 volts. Some decks have a DC decoupling capacitor that helps protect the input from applied DC, but maybe H2 has too little protection if given too much unexpected DC power input?
i just measured the output with a connected 3.5mm cable plugged in.
the TOP-ring of the plug shows: 150mV
the middle ring shows: 80mV
Well, the plot thickens as NO help from this.
Middle ring usually the right channel, which is lower than tip-left channel voltage. Either is low enough to only cause a pop sound in the audio, never a 'smoke' problem to anything.
Do make sure everything (mic/power/preamp) is connected up and powered working to be recording, except no deck connection, just voltmeter to read output plug. If not electrical, then mechanical is most suspect.
SO MAYBE THIS IS A MECHANICAL STRESS ISSUE like R-09? Usually by wiggling a broken input you can sometimes get the audio back if holding plug in some position. Maybe try this with phones on?
If you can hear the audio come back momentarily in the phones while in REC/standby, then mechanical failure (PCB board/input connector) is most likely.
I am also 'proud owner' of a H2 deck and never had a problem in just over a month, maybe only because still inside an unopened box waiting for review time. Now you got me thinking 'somebody' should open one up and see what's up?
Just maybe the input jacks are like R-09 just 'waiting' for an excuse to break?
Suggest seeing this through with getting another trying not giving it an excuse, like using straight in plugs or long handled right angle types, especially with stiff cord.
And is there more gluing down input jacks in our future for the opportunity to own a really cheap deck that still works?
Or is the specter of another parade of broken jacks just a mirage. Say it's so!
Roland's refusal to get the correct jacks installed after more than a year seems intention to making decks with break-away jacks a good practice!
And now maybe Zoom H2 has followed to spoil the party.
This would be more humorous to me, but because I think these tiny, inexpensive decks are fun to use; more or less produce very satisfying quality audio especially with enhancing accessories, but shouldn't we be expecting most of us having two years trouble-free ride?
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
Get a voltmeter and see if your SP battery box is OUTPUTTING DC into the right channel.
Just connect the voltmeter to ground and the output pin of the box's output connector (not connected to anything else)
It should measure at or near 0 volts. Some decks have a DC decoupling capacitor that helps protect the input from applied DC, but maybe H2 has too little protection if given too much unexpected DC power input?
i just measured the output with a connected 3.5mm cable plugged in.
the TOP-ring of the plug shows: 150mV
the middle ring shows: 80mV
Well, the plot thickens as NO help from this.
Middle ring usually the right channel, which is lower than tip-left channel voltage. Either is low enough to only cause a pop sound in the audio, never a 'smoke' problem to anything.
SO MAYBE THIS IS A MECHANICAL STRESS ISSUE like R-09? Usually by wiggling a broken input you can sometimes get the audio back if holding plug in some position. Maybe try this with phones on?
If you can hear the audio come back momentarily in the phones while in REC/standby, then mechanical failure (PCB board/input connector) is most likely.
Longshot - arent there some 1/8 connectors that are a little bigger than most?
I know I've seen some Switchcraft stuff that **LOOKS** like an 1/8 mini - but is just a tad bigger...
Hard to believe 1 user could have the exact same problem across two completely different brands...
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it was the 1st time i used the new H2 today.
1. tried it with my preamp which showed both channels recording.
2. then as described above, i unplugged the preamp and connected my bbox with the right angle mini-plug to the line-in=>1 channel gone forever.
i can exclude the stress-issue, my RH1 is the best piece i ever had (2 r09, 2 iriver H120, 2 zoom).
the irivers and the RH1 never had a problem with my bbox and my 3.5mm right angle plugs are from SP.
anyway...I´m soon off to record Brian Auger´s Oblivion express tonight ;) with my RH1+DPA 4061+my killer battery box ;) .
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WHILE HARD TO TELL FOR SURE, the plug with two cords entering looks suspect to be larger less precision type with shearing ability 'ledge' type ring.
These can as mentioned cause some jack types real grief, but consistently with just one insertion? That is hard to believe, but is possible I guess.
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WHILE HARD TO TELL FOR SURE, the plug with two cords entering looks suspect to be larger less precision type with shearing ability 'ledge' type ring.
These can as mentioned cause some jack types real grief, but consistently with just one insertion? That is hard to believe, but is possible I guess.
the 2 cord plug was from my sp-cmc-4U mics and i never plugged this into the edirol r09 or the zoom.
just wanted to show i use standard SP 3,5mm plugs ;).
i guess it MUST be my 12v bbox output which causes some elctronic fault to r09 or zoom H2 recorders.
my h2 will return tomorrow and i hope i´ll get my money back, the shopp offer´s "30 day money back"....
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Found time to at least start the testing of H2. As found with H4 model, H2 has #100-#127 working rec level control range. H2 seems not to have weird rolled off frequency found in the H4 model I tested previously; www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm)
While the internal mics seem low enough noise to be useful even for natural acoustic sounds, connecting up external mics seems plagued with excessive low frequency and high switching spike noise as the input noise plots I ran indicate. Mic input -3 dB bandwidth is 50-40,000 Hz. So low frequency is being rolled off maybe too much for some acoustic recording purposes.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/line-lmh.gif)
Line input -3 dB response is 10 - 42,000 Hz and is most useful with external preamplifier with attenuation network to reduce signal to <-1.9 dBu H2 maximum allowed.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa3sx_h2.gif)
These plots and more H2 technical info to be posted sometime on my site in an upcoming review of this lowest costing feature-loaded deck.
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Thanks Guy.
I appreciate all your testing. As I've said in other threads, it pays to be paranoid about this stuff. Just like computing, both hardware and software, there are so many products out there that just do not work.
Richard
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Found time to at least start the testing of H2. As found with H4 model, H2 has #100-#127 working rec level control range. H2 seems not to have weird rolled off frequency found in the H4 model I tested previously; www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm (http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm)
While the internal mics seem low enough noise to be useful even for natural acoustic sounds, connecting up external mics seems plagued with excessive low frequency and high switching spike noise as the input noise plots I ran indicate. Mic input -3 dB bandwidth is 50-40,000 Hz. So low frequency is being rolled off maybe too much for some acoustic recording purposes.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/line-lmh.gif)
Line input -3 dB response is 10 - 42,000 Hz and is most useful with external preamplifier with attenuation network to reduce signal to <-1.9 dBu H2 maximum allowed.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/pa3sx_h2.gif)
These plots and more H2 technical info to be posted sometime on my site in an upcoming review of this lowest costing feature-loaded deck.
Just so you understand you cant really do noise tests like that.. You must use averaging in order for your noise measurements to make any sense.. Here is a real noise floor test. You cant just take a peek level and then say well there is a peek at -98 so thats the noise floor it must be averaged. What I do is take a 1k signal apply it to the device undertest and then use a 1k filter and subtract the 1k signal what your left with is the noise floor as can be seen on the grey screen that says "in band level" Notice my noise measurements for the zoom H4 in the graph below it shows an inband level of -103db that is the noise floor. I also think your elevated low end frequency response is a sample rate error for the device under test. With the zoon you must adjust your sample rate of your program and sync it with the sample rate of the zoom in order to get a real frequency response because the zoom has a major sample rate error its off big time from my computer. When I first did the tests I was getting similar results until I adjusted my sample rate of my computer by .05% then they synced up. BTW my noise test was A weighted so Its actually more like a noise floor of -97 or so.
Chris
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More H2 info showing effects of having the backlight on/off. NOT much difference except just a little more noise around 800 Hz if using MIC input. LINE input seems unaffected either way.
Like all my spectrum tests, the FFT is set at maximum number of samples with the settings showing in the image below, but same as all noise tests done, and all using 1000 ohm metal film .5% input load with deck recording inside a metal box to exclude external influences. Recorded files on the flash card are later transferred to CEP for FFT noise analysis plots like you see posted.
(http://www.sonicstudios.com/h2hi-100.gif)
Someone living in ZOOM land argues for 'A' weighting on 'frequency plot' (spectrum) noise measurements. Maybe done differently in Canada, but 40 years experience in USA and never seen 'A' weighting used on noise spectrum graphed over frequency, 'A' mostly for arriving at a single dB number assumed to be humanly audible under certain conditions, and has meaning for physiological effects.
'A' weighting is based on the Fletcher Munson curve that rolls off low and high frequency bands to approximate audibility. As most will realize when viewing the F-M graphic, the low-to-high wiggle curve gets way more straight as the loudness increases.
So 'A' weighting is not meant to be precise, just an approximation finding best use in Sound Level Meters giving some measure of acoustic loudness for possible health effects, but little usefulness in frequency spectrum plots where nothing should be hidden giving chance of unassumed performance assessments.
FAST EXAMPLE: An 'A' weighted instrument will not register highly audible quick impulse sounds like gun shots (especially at some distance), and spark gap sounds are invisible to 'A' weight readings, but VERY visible to what we hear. So 'A' is good for getting at long term physical effects, but NOT for knowing what we hear. Marketing an 'A' weighted S/N does give nice low number to display. It may be 'non'-weighted S/N specifications number tells a less biased story?
What would you prefer to see, -92 dB S/N A weighted, or -85 dB unweighted spec for the same product? And how would you compare this products -92 dB "A" spec with -90 dB unweighted device. Easy with knowing -85 dB non-'A' noise figure to see -90 dB device has less mostly audible noise , but only seeing typical 'A' weighted spec on one device, no easy apples-to-apples comparison.
Even with both products displaying weighted OR UN-weighted numbers, only a psychic could know the audible noise 'characteristics' of these two devices.
It would seem best chance of actually seeing real differences of noise characteristic is by unadulterated signal level verses frequency graphics like I've been using in the reviews.
With spectrum graphics, just by looking at dB levels verses frequency to get a real feel for noise performance. And having spectrum graphics for many new models all tested in an identical manner allows uncommon 'apples-to-apples' comparisons.
What's not to like with this?
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Someone living in ZOOM land argues for 'A' weighting on 'frequency plot' (spectrum) noise measurements. Maybe done differently in Canada, but 40 years experience in USA and never seen 'A' weighting used on noise spectrum graphed over frequency, 'A' mostly for arriving at a single dB number assumed to be humanly audible under certain conditions, and has meaning for physiological effects.
With spectrum graphics, just by looking at dB levels verses frequency to get a real feel for noise performance. And having spectrum graphics for many new models all tested in an identical manner allows uncommon 'apples-to-apples' comparisons.
What's not to like with this?
Why do you have to Bring CANADA into this? it really shows a lack of class on your part. And thats too bad.
I was not saying that A weighted measurements were the "way to go" I was saying that alot of companies are using them. Where your test is really flawed is the fact that you dont average out your noise measurements. That's the only problem I had with your measurement. You cant "eyeball" a graph and say yep that's a noise floor of -150 buy just looking at it. Sooner or later you have to put it into a single number. And terminating your input does not guarantee that noise from your environment is not getting into the DUT.
BTW Neumann, Sennhieser, Rane, Buzzaudio, M-AUDIO..And there are many more...They ALL USE A WHEIGHTED MEASUREMENTS... but hell what do I know.. Now again I am not saying they are correct in doing so. But your theory of nobody using A-weighted measurements seems WRONG. Because they are.. And they will continue to do so whenever a product does not meet the magic number weighted measurements will always be used to trick the consumer into seeing better performance. Now when you dont Average a noise spectrum ( the main mistake your making with Your measurements ) you are making huge mistake.. Please tell me if you can what the graph below indicates for a noise floor..
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Terminating the input and placing the device under test in a solid metal box (like I stated doing for all such tests) DOES eliminate chance of outside interference.
Obscuring details of noise floor over frequency with giving a single unqualified graph (no test conditions stated) or single boiled-down number only aids in covering up real performance details so NO WAY anyone can tell what is going on with each device (like you're insisting) is really wrong way to do honest testing from my experience, but great way to cover up seeing good performance and shortcomings.
Curious that you only pop-up with this stuff when I review a ZOOM product, but seem to not notice or present such arguments with accompanying obscure graphs when posting MT1, MR-1, or R-09 tests and resulting reviews.
I am now thinking maybe you're living too close to ZOOM company for being objective about revealing type testing of their products?
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Terminating the input and placing the device under test in a solid metal box (like I stated doing for all such tests) DOES eliminate chance of outside interference.
Obscuring details of noise floor over frequency with giving a single unqualified graph (no test conditions stated) or single boiled-down number only aids in covering up real performance details so NO WAY anyone can tell what is going on with each device (like you're insisting) is really wrong way to do honest testing from my experience, but great way to cover up seeing good performance and shortcomings.
Curious that you only pop-up with this stuff when I review a ZOOM product, but seem to not notice or present such arguments with accompanying obscure graphs when posting MT1, MR-1, or R-09 tests and resulting reviews.
I am now thinking maybe you're living too close to ZOOM company for being objective about revealing type testing of their products?
LOL Yeah I work for ZOOM, man you got me. Hey I should warn you that little green men are at this very moment waiting to break into your test bench and install some real software on your computer.
Lets just stop nobody wants to see a flame war. And besides I have alot of orders to fill. ;)
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Chris's graphics posted in this thread, and only partially explained testing criteria is more visible in his previous post about H4 model found here: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82333.msg1092560.html (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82333.msg1092560.html)
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Chris's graphics posted in this thread, and only partially explained testing criteria is more visible in his previous post about H4 model found here: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82333.msg1092560.html (http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82333.msg1092560.html)
No offence but I did not explain my testing procedures only because I thought who cares? your tests are flawed. I proved that. Now do I like the Zoom No I think its a toy. Do I work for Zoom no. Do I care what you think? No.. so why not just drop this. I got different results then you because I am not using a sound editing program for sound analysis I actually whent out and spent money on a real software package that analyzes audio for me. Every test I do is first done by doing a loop back test from my test interface's input to output. Then I take an output from my interface and then I record on the DUT. Then I take the file from the DUT and analyze it.. In my program.. Then I take the device and do a loop back test thru the device it self to see how device performs under these tests.. I dont use a Faraday shield because these devices should not be tested in one.. Unless the people using the devices are going to be using a Faraday shield when they operate it. Your tests dont prove the real performance of the DUT. That's what I was saying now I am done with this convo. Please lets move on.
One last thing you still have not answered my question if your methods of eyeballing noise floor are so good please tell me what the noise floor is in this graph..
Chris
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:hmmm: Maybe the difference is I look at this more from a Tapers viewpoint; this is how I began many years ago, and am still following my passion for recording all kinds of sounds.
Yes it's true tapers don't use their decks inside a metal box, and neither are they doing I/O signal loops!
:coolguy: I test just like tapers use them.
But for me, the Faraday shield box stays with the program as external noise has no place being added to recordings of deck's self-noise. External noise susceptibility is a different test done ONLY after knowing self-noise reference levels.
My testing ONLY involves analog input-to-recorded file system performance. This means working the test like the deck is used and analyse the resulting recording in a simple audio editor. Nothing wrong with this, and many tapers can do such tests these days themselves.
AND PLEASE, NO technical mumbo-jumbo showing huge (good only for marketing) numbers from inputs unknown, and invisible signal conditions, and defer weighted numbers for marketing purposes.
Tapers and technical people like myself get no benefit from pseudo-technical obscurity working against understanding what's going on. We need to know in input/settings practical terms and definitive spectrum graphics ways to get the best experience from using a particular model of portable deck.
:angel: So doing real input testing while recording and then showing definitive graphics as I've done seems most useful from a tapers viewpoint, and (most) technical people also appreciate this testing technique for being a most concise way to understanding audio deck performance.
I am not saying Chris is doing anything wrong, like he's claiming for me, and he can use whatever methods, graphic displays, and explanation, or lack of as he desires in my book. :sleepy: I personally find his technical displays impossible to understand in any real taper related terms. :zzz:
But maybe others better appreciate, getting benefit from his tech posts. I encourage Chris to keep at it as there's always chance he will improve his writing ability with practice so even I can get some benefit. :clapping:
However, I do object to his statements of what I'm doing is invalid !! :flack:
:gun: This seems unnecessarily asking for trouble where there's no technical, moral, or ethical problem with my reviewing methods that I'm aware. And I've been doing this type of testing for over 40 years without complaints.
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But maybe others better appreciate, getting benefit from his tech posts. I encourage Chris to keep at it as there's always chance he will improve his writing ability with practice so even I can get some benefit. :clapping:
POST EDIT.
I have decided to edit my post and remove it. I am doing this because I just dont want to clog a thread with this crap. I apologize to the people that were trying to read this thread and actually learn something from it.
Chris
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I think that what Chris is trying to say is that the spectral graphs show power spectral density in a given bandwidth. That's not the same thing as noise level. In order to know the actual noise level, you have to integrate the power spectral density over frequency. Older analog equipment used to use an averaging filter to approximate the process of integration on the peak detected noise within the bandwidth of a swept bandpass filter. People still talk about it as if they are using an averaging filter, but the goal really is integration of the power spectral density function to obtain the total noise power contained within the integration bandwidth.
And by the way, you have to use a loopback calibration if you wish to keep the response of your test equipment out of the measurements.
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I need the bottom line on this one. I read all the way through to page 9 but couldn't really find how the H2 compares to the H4. I went to the store today where they tried selling me the H4 over the H2. Of course the H4 was a 130 euros more expensive. Before I shell this extra cash I need to know to things:
Is the H4 that much better that it warrants spending the extra 130 euros on?
And can a complete starting dummy like myself use the H4 without too much hassle :P
I hope you can shed some light on this one.
Thanks.
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I am looking for a h2 for some experiments I want to see if I can mod the built in preamp and put in an external mic jack anyone interested let me know.
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To me, the only attraction of the H4 is its XLR mic inputs. The H4 has relatively noisy preamps, and the recorder generates RF interference when writing to the flash memory card. The interference is audible as clicks in your recordings. (This can be avoided by using an external power supply, but that just adds complications.)
The H2 has quieter preamps than the H4, the mics sound better to me, and it has good battery life from its two AA cells (as much as 6 hours). The ability to record four channels is intriguing, too. Plus the price makes the H2 a bargain.
The H2 has one issue to be aware of. Its volume control adds volume after the sound has been digitized, not the best idea for quality recordings. Leave the volume setting at 95 to 100 (neither adding nor reducing the volume), and use the mic sensitivity switch to control the loudness of the recording. The medium setting seems about right for general recording.
Here are a couple of additional sources of information about the H2
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2007/09/13/review-zoom-h2-surround-recorder.html
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/message/29879
And here's a forum for owners of the H2 and H4
http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewforum.php?f=15
Flintstone
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FYI... my experience with the H2 is detailed here:
http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=10306
The biggest issue I'm running into is that the H2 seems to introduce a "whine" at 500hz intervals when using an external mic. Looking at the spectrograph, it looks like this:
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5972/whinejj9.jpg)
Now, I should add... I'm not sure whether this is a problem with my specific unit, or the model in general. So please don't base your buying decision on this. Also, I think the 4 channel surround sound is pretty incredible -- there are no noise or "whine" issues with the built-in mics. When you consider what you'd have to carry to capture surround sound if you didn't have an H2, this thing is pretty incredible. I've been recording tons of city ambiance, carrying it around like a point and shoot camera.
If it didn't have such issues with external mics, it would be close to perfect. I wonder if Chris from Busman would consider modding it. :)
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FYI... my experience with the H2 is detailed here:
http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=10306
The biggest issue I'm running into is that the H2 seems to introduce a "whine" at 500hz intervals when using an external mic. Looking at the spectrograph, it looks like this:
(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5972/whinejj9.jpg)
Now, I should add... I'm not sure whether this is a problem with my specific unit, or the model in general. So please don't base your buying decision on this. Also, I think the 4 channel surround sound is pretty incredible -- there are no noise or "whine" issues with the built-in mics. When you consider what you'd have to carry to capture surround sound if you didn't have an H2, this thing is pretty incredible. I've been recording tons of city ambiance, carrying it around like a point and shoot camera.
If it didn't have such issues with external mics, it would be close to perfect. I wonder if Chris from Busman would consider modding it. :)
That 500hz could be a harmonic of the power supply noise..? I am going to take a really close look at one in the next few weeks. And see if I can come up with some mods for it. If I do I will publish what I did so others can do it. I am just thinking about modifying the unit so I can take the mics that are inside it and change them to a mic jack so we can use three external mic capsules but I also have to beef up the preamp so it will not overload.
Then there is the possibility of using the recorder for stealth use with three cardioid mics.. That's just me thinking out loud. I am not sure if it can be done until I see one in my hands.
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Thanks Flintstone,
I was told at the store that the H4 has better mics and four tracks instead of two. On paper I guess this is correct. But if I understand you correctly the inbuilt mics of the H2 come out sounding better.
I'm not sure though, is it possible to link the H2 to a soundboard? Also does the H2 have phantom power like the H4?
Thanks again,
Alex
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bensyverson, Is the recording monitor of your H2 set to "off?" It's described on page 79 of the manual. Just a guess.
soulboogiealex, The H2 can provide "plug-in power," about 2.5V DC, to mics that use that form of powering. "Phantom power," 48V DC, is not available. If your mics need 48V, then you should get a separate battery box like the Rolls PB224. The PB224 uses its own batteries to provide "phantom power" to mics.
Actually, using an external battery box will produce better results from just about any recorder that is powered by two AA cells or a small rechargeable internal battery. The battery box will make sure your mics get the power they need.
Flintstone
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flintstone, monitor is set to OFF (default)...
I've contacted Chris, and he seems to think this is a good candidate for modding. I'm going to make sure I can't resolve this within warranty, and if I can't, I'm sending it to him...
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Any prospective purchaser of the H2 should be aware of the info in http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9745&start=0 - though it doesn't compare the H2 to the H4.
A Sweetwater person posted that Zoom told him the H2 mics are the same as the H4 - except you get four of them.
Chief downside of the H2 is noisy mic preamps when used with external mics. (Line in is OK). Built in mics seem to be routed through a different preamp and are as quiet as you would expect at the price, if not better.
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i've been very tempted to pick one of these up for use w/its built in mics to see how it fairs.
this is a prime example of technology making thigs better and cheaper.
think about it..., 10 years ago you could be lugging around $4k in recording gear that might not sound all that much better than the sub $200 H2 flying on a mic stand on its own. Well...maybe not $4k in gear. :-), but you catch my drift, i'm sure.
plus, the versatility of its 4 mics... and what you can do w/that.
I wish I could find some silly eBay deals, but the NR auctions all end up so close to the BIN prices that its foolish to bid.
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I need the bottom line on this one. I read all the way through to page 9 but couldn't really find how the H2 compares to the H4. I went to the store today where they tried selling me the H4 over the H2. Of course the H4 was a 130 euros more expensive. Before I shell this extra cash I need to know to things:
Is the H4 that much better that it warrants spending the extra 130 euros on?
And can a complete starting dummy like myself use the H4 without too much hassle :P
I hope you can shed some light on this one.
Thanks.
I had both the H4 and the H2 for awhile, and I returned the H2 to the store.
My experience was that recording with built-in mics was noisier on the H2. And the internal mics do not sound quite as good as the H4's. I don't know why that is since they are supposed to have identical capsules. Perhaps the H4 preamp is slightly better.
Also, the external mic input on the H2 is basically unusable. That was the real deal-breaker for me.
I also got better results on the H4 than on the H2 when recording line-in, using a custom preamp and a Sony mic (ECM-979).
I like using the H4 despite its many drawbacks.
That said, if you have to shell out an additional 130 euros, why not take a look at the Sony PCM-D50? It is three or four times the quality of the H4 in build and signal path and convenience, etc.
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i've been very tempted to pick one of these up for use w/its built in mics to see how it fairs.
this is a prime example of technology making thigs better and cheaper.
think about it..., 10 years ago you could be lugging around $4k in recording gear that might not sound all that much better than the sub $200 H2 flying on a mic stand on its own. Well...maybe not $4k in gear. :-), but you catch my drift, i'm sure.
plus, the versatility of its 4 mics... and what you can do w/that.
I wish I could find some silly eBay deals, but the NR auctions all end up so close to the BIN prices that its foolish to bid.
Nick, I noticed that we live closely to one another. I have an H2 that I'd be happy to loan you to play around with. I need it until the last week of this month but after that you're welcome to borrow it for a couple weeks. Let me if you're interested.
Best,
Doug
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Very nice of you Doug.
where do you live ?
I'm in Shapleigh. out near Ross corner, to be exact. almost in Newfield.
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I'm in South Berwick, right downtown. PM me if you're interested and we can take this off line, so as not to muddy up the thread. ;)
Best,
Doug
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I bought the H2 some weeks ago and really like it, the 4-track-feature is awesome ;D !
But I have a major problem: My band has really small practicing-space (12sqm) and we play loud (not extremly loud!) rockmusic. As far as I use it in 2-track mode and point it away from the drums and in direction to the guitaramps (so that it records only the reflected drums) it is no problem. But when I use it in 4-track-mode or point the mics directly at the drumset (1-2m away) there is some distortion :( .
I wrote Zoom an email and asked for a firmware-based pad. Does anybody know if this is actually possible to implement such a function or is the preamp/ gain completley hardware-based?
When it is senseless to wait for such an update, I'll think about selling the H2 (I'ld miss the 4-track-mode :'( ). Alternatives are the Marantz PMD-620 (I'm not sure if it can handle the volume), the Olympus LS-10 (it's the same with the SPL) or the Sony PCM-D50 (they say the SPL is 120dB, this will definitely be enough; but i is al little big and has no mp3-support)? What would you recommend?
Thanks, micmonster
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I got this replay from Zoom:
Unfortunately, it's not possible to implement a -20dB Pad function by firmware updates.
Anyway, we will forward your feedback to the H2 development team for future reference.
What a pitty, I could cry :'( !
Can anybody help with a new recorder (named above)?
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No one?
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It does not seem like a recorder issue. Drums are just a great deal louder. Since you mention the 2 track mode is fine, and the other recorders are 2 track recorders, switching to any of them only takes away the flexibility of the 4 track you like, so why give that up.
Is there any control over the 4 track function? Obviously having some balance control would help. Otherwise a large plexiglass screen in front of the drums or some other muting device might help.
I don't know if you can use external mics and still record in the 4 track mode, but if so you could put an attenuator on the external mic that faces the drum.
I hope this helps!
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It is for sure a recorder problem. I know some drummers that use it and don't have the problem (maybe because the room is bigger, I'm not sure). But there's definitly no way, that it won't distort if you point one of the mics directly to the drums.
4 tracks only with internal mics.
Another guy with a Marantz PMD-620 had no problem recording drums even without the PAD turned on :o ! So it should work.
Zoom told me that the SPL is 115dB - this should be normally enough. Maybe my unit is damaged?
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It is for sure a recorder problem. I know some drummers that use it and don't have the problem (maybe because the room is bigger, I'm not sure). But there's definitly no way, that it won't distort if you point one of the mics directly to the drums.
4 tracks only with internal mics.
Another guy with a Marantz PMD-620 had no problem recording drums even without the PAD turned on :o ! So it should work.
Zoom told me that the SPL is 115dB - this should be normally enough. Maybe my unit is damaged?
What are your exact settings on the H2 when getting distortion? We need to know a little more to diagnose this issue. Can you post a sample or describe the distortion?
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It is for sure a recorder problem. I know some drummers that use it and don't have the problem (maybe because the room is bigger, I'm not sure). But there's definitly no way, that it won't distort if you point one of the mics directly to the drums.
4 tracks only with internal mics.
Another guy with a Marantz PMD-620 had no problem recording drums even without the PAD turned on :o ! So it should work.
Zoom told me that the SPL is 115dB - this should be normally enough. Maybe my unit is damaged?
115db max spl ia not enough to record drums close up you need more like 130db Max spl handling abilities in order to record drums close up with out any distortion a snare drum at 3 feet can easily be 114db with out much effort. Cymbals can hit 118 to 120 for short peaks.. So drums are another ball game. I would suggest being at least 10 feet back from a kit if you want to use this thing for recording drums.. That being said not all drummers are loud and nothing is writen in stone.
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There are just 3 possible Gainsettings: Low, Medium, High. I naturally use the low-setting. I don't think, that there's anything to solve :-\ .
I think Church-Audio is right, the drums (in my small room) are (a bit) too loud for the H2, especially the snare (you can often see the H2 clip, when the snare is hit). But I have to say, that I don't really want to use the H2 for close-up-miking ;) .
I would have been so easy, if they installed a PAD.
Maybe I'll try the Marantz.
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In another forum a user reported better results in similar circumstances by using a level of something like 80 instead of 100. Yes, I know that shouldn't work, but the report was that it did.
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I think, this other user did not realize that the problems stille exist. As far as I remember I tried it with 75 and it didn't help.
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lots of loud small room H2 experience here. your only option is a
use rear mics only and move as far from drums as possible OR put it in an isolation box.
KevinT
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Thank you for clarification. So I should better look out for another recorder...
How does the H2 behave in small to medium concert-locations (rockmusic)?
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I am getting a H2 this week and I will open it up and see if I can do some mods to it like replace the capsules with my own and build a pad for the H2 so it does not overload.
Stay tuned..
Chris
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Cool 8) .
If the PAD won't be to complicated to install, I'll try this.
Looking forward for your documentation!!!
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This subject is already being scrutinized in the following thread:
http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9945
It appears that it helps setting the mic sensitivity to 'L' along with the setting the rec levels to between 70 and 85. Let us know if it helps you.
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This subject is already being scrutinized in the following thread:
http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9945
It appears that it helps setting the mic sensitivity to 'L' along with the setting the rec levels to between 70 and 85. Let us know if it helps you.
I am going to go way beyond firmware or a hardware setting I am going to be changing the mic capsules and modifying some of the mic preamp electronics.
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I'll try it with lower settings than 70. With 75/80 it still clips. We'll see...
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That's the discussion that I mentioned earlier - but was too lazy to give you a link!
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I had already tried it with 75 but yesterday I chose RL 70 but I didn't succeed :'( . The meters have been significantly below 0, so I think the analog input stage is distorting. The machine definitely needs a PAD (hello Church-Audio ;D ) or to be changed...
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Recording heavy vehicles going up a quite steep main road near here works nicely on the "M100" setting, so I hate to think how loud this band is playing if they are overloading "L"!
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The mics of the H2 can only stand 115dB, most studio-mics used for (closed-)micing drums have an SPL far beyond that. That's because drums (snare and cymbals as stated in this thread) alone produce peaks around >115dB and then there are 2 guitars, bass and vocals. As i mentioned the small space we're practicing in makes it more complicated.
So I'ld say this is just a normal situation for a rock band! Nothing special about it.
The Record-Level doesn't affect the analog input gain, so it's nearly useless.
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I am getting a H2 this week and I will open it up and see if I can do some mods to it like replace the capsules with my own and build a pad for the H2 so it does not overload.
Stay tuned..
Chris
Chris--
I'm looking forward to your mods. I've got an H2 that I use almost exclusively to record West African drumming in small room settings, and i find that either it distorts in the low-mid range, or i have to be far enough away that there's too much room sound. better pres and mics that can handle the spls would be very nice for my purposes. I also notice in the Wingfield Audio sound comparisons posted today that the H2 and the Edirol don't sound as bright as the high-end Sonys. Do you think your proposed mods will have any effect on this? I may be one of your first customers if you succeed.
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Please let us know how the mods work and if you can retrofit for others. It might sound cool to have a cadioid/omni combo in the 4 mic mode.
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What about the mod?
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I am getting an H2 next week I will post my results in sometime next week.
Chris
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Does anyone know what the unity gain is on this thing? Is 100 equal to 0dB on a normal scale?
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100 is accepted as being unity digital gain.
See http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9745&start=0 for an H2 FAQ.
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Today I'll do a 24bit Wave-Recording. Maybe this will help a little...
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Please let us know how the mods work and if you can retrofit for others. It might sound cool to have a cadioid/omni combo in the 4 mic mode.
I would be willing to rip the mic capsules off my H2 if I could get two working (TRUE LINE LEVEL) inputs to record 4-channel!
I am still really bummed about the low levels at which the existing line input "brickwalls."
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I had the feeling that there's only very few distortion recording 24/44 wavs. I'll try it out again tonight.
What about the mod?
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Please let us know how the mods work and if you can retrofit for others. It might sound cool to have a cadioid/omni combo in the 4 mic mode.
I would be willing to rip the mic capsules off my H2 if I could get two working (TRUE LINE LEVEL) inputs to record 4-channel!
I am still really bummed about the low levels at which the existing line input "brickwalls."
I'm quessing to save $ Zoom just route and switch a padded 2 channel lines to the front left & Front Rt mic preamps
when you plug in the line jack
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I had the feeling that there's only very few distortion recording 24/44 wavs. I'll try it out again tonight.
I did not measure it, but I didn't realize any distortion in 24/44. When my new 2GB SD arrives, I 'll try a surround-recording with this settings.
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I was taping Max Romeo (reggae) last night and running : AT831's>H2 (24/48)
My battery box did not work (one more time! :-\ >:D) so i had to wire the mics into "mic in".
I was really close to the stage, something like 2-3 meters, and i did not realize i was even closer to the stacks!!
The sound came out really bad : way TOO much bass, distorsion and what is really weird (and I think it comes from my setting) the levels were cut (12db if i am right)
I used the H2 one time during another show, and the sound came out excatly that way (and the other time i was using my batt box) with too much bass.
i don't know why, but i've never had that problem with my Ihp-120.
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What about the mod?
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What about the mod?
I just got the h2 and I am working on it :)
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ok, tank you!
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I just got the h2 and I am working on it :)
While you're working on it, if you come up with any insights on which of your preamps would be a good match for a stock unit, please share them.
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I have just bought a H2, but there doesnt seem to be an input on the Line in..
Mic in works fine, but when I use my bat box with mics on line in it wont give a signal.. same when I connect a digital output to it from my computer..
anyone who can help me? is it broken?
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I have just bought a H2, but there doesnt seem to be an input on the Line in..
Mic in works fine, but when I use my bat box with mics on line in it wont give a signal.. same when I connect a digital output to it from my computer..
anyone who can help me? is it broken?
No, it's not broken. Microphones don't have enough "signal" to operate on "Line In." You would need a pre-amplifier.
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I used a battery box, that should be enough right? SP bat box
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I used a battery box, that should be enough right? SP bat box
If you talk directly into the mics with the gain set to max on the zoom you should be getting some kind of levels. if not I would suspect the cable you have going from your battery box to your mics also check the battery :) This has happened in the past... If all else fails plug in a cd player into the line input make sure with a set of headphones that its sending audio and if you still have nothing then ether its a setting in your zoom or your zoom is $ucked up.
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So here is what I found out:
1) the line in is definitely broken..
2) however, if I turn off plug in power, and hook my SP bat box + AT831s to mic in, it works fine.. same with a signal from my radio. works fine
So my question:
Is mic in the same as line in, when I turn off plug in power?
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So my question:
Is mic in the same as line in, when I turn off plug in power?
No. Mic Power only affects the Mic In port by feeding a small amount of electricity to power a condenser microphone. The recorder is expecting much more signal to come from the device when it is plugged into Line In.
Here's how SHURE, the microphone, pre-amp, mixer etc. company's engineers explain the difference between Mic Levels and Line Levels:
"Mic-level or microphone-level signal is the amount of voltage that comes out of a microphone when someone speaks into it - just a few ten-thousandths of a volt. (Of course, this voltage varies somewhat in response to changes in speaking volume and source-to-mic distance.)
A line-level signal is approximately one volt, or about 10,000 times as strong as a mic-level signal, so the two do not ordinarily use the same input.
Connecting a microphone to a line-level input will result in almost no sound at all, because the signal is so faint that the line input cannot hear it.
Connecting a line-level source (such as a CD player) to a mic-level input will cause the sound to be loud and distorted because the line signal is much stronger than what the mic input will accept.
Microphone level is usually specified between -60 and -40 dBu. Line level is considered to be +4 dBu"
Hope that helps.
Having said all that, you should be getting a signal when you plug a CD player or any "Line Out" source into "Line In" on the H2. You may, indeed, have a problem with your unit.
But a battery box does not equal a pre-amplifier. If you use a battery box, you still use "Mic In."
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Ok thanks for your awnser..
So basicly:
AT831 > Bat Box > Zoom H2 (Mic in w/ Plugin power switched off)
is the way to go?
Church Audio, what do you think?
And yes, My line in is broken.. I will take it back to the store, to get a new one..
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So my question:
Is mic in the same as line in, when I turn off plug in power?
If you use a battery box, you still use "Mic In."
Actually most people that use a battery box do so because they want to use the line input because the mic input on most devices will overload easily where as the line input will not. ;)
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Ok, but still..
Should mic in (without plug in power) with bat box work as well?
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Ok, but still..
Should mic in (without plug in power) with bat box work as well?
As a general rule using a battery box on the mic input is not really a good idea.. but it should not be a problem as long as the person who built the battery box has built it correctly :)
And plugging in a battery box backwards into a powered mic input can have really bad results for the power supply of the device your connecting it too... Yet another reason why its not a good idea. Its like Ghost busters when they crossed the streams sure they could do it but it was still not a good idea.
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Chris,
Also have an H2 and would be interested in knowing which preamp and mics of yours would be the best match with the H2. Can't wait to see what mods you come up with.
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Ok can someone give me some of the main issues with performance that the H2 has.
I have come up with a mod that I think might be good...
I was thinking of adding two stereo mic inputs so that users could use external mics for recording in 4 channel this set of mic jacks would "disconnect" the mic capsules from the mics and allow you to use a separate battery box and your own mics for recording Or a preamp. I think that what ever battery box you use should have some kind of attenuator on them to reduce the level.. somewhat. This is my first thoughts.
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As a general rule using a battery box on the mic input is not really a good idea.. but it should not be a problem as long as the person who built the battery box has built it correctly :)
And plugging in a battery box backwards into a powered mic input can have really bad results for the power supply of the device your connecting it too... Yet another reason why its not a good idea. Its like Ghost busters when they crossed the streams sure they could do it but it was still not a good idea.
I think a lot of people may be getting confused. Very confused.
Let's hope the battery boxes are wired correctly, but are they REALLY sending their power to the recording device or to the microphone? My experience has been that the battery box increases the effectiveness of the microphone into "Mic In" -- more signal, depth and performance.
It is my understanding, from microphone manufacturers, that supplying voltage to their microphones is good, but not a replacement for a pre-amp.
If you think otherwise, please say so clearly. Explain the circumstances and battery boxes you think enable a microphone to become "Line In" enabled. I know of NONE.
Check out Giant Squid Audio...they make little custom mics like Church Audio. The developer has told me that supplying, for example, +48v to his mics would "fry" them. His 9v battery box does a good job of increasing the signal to "Mic In" but does nothing for "Line In."
At the same time, he doesn't assert that a battery used to increase the performance of the microphone will approach a pre-amp in any way -- meaning it's not, NOT ready for Line In.
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-micline1.html
I have used the H2 with Mic In, I have used it with Line In when using the Shure FP23 pre-amp. The signal through the pre-amp is wholly superior. But for a $200 recorder to use a $400 pre-amp is not cost-effective, IMHO.
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As a general rule using a battery box on the mic input is not really a good idea.. but it should not be a problem as long as the person who built the battery box has built it correctly :)
And plugging in a battery box backwards into a powered mic input can have really bad results for the power supply of the device your connecting it too... Yet another reason why its not a good idea. Its like Ghost busters when they crossed the streams sure they could do it but it was still not a good idea.
I think a lot of people may be getting confused. Very confused.
Let's hope the battery boxes are wired correctly, but are they REALLY sending their power to the recording device or to the microphone? My experience has been that the battery box increases the effectiveness of the microphone into "Mic In" -- more signal, depth and performance.
It is my understanding, from microphone manufacturers, that supplying voltage to their microphones is good, but not a replacement for a pre-amp.
If you think otherwise, please say so clearly. Explain the circumstances and battery boxes you think enable a microphone to become "Line In" enabled. I know of NONE.
Check out Giant Squid Audio...they make little custom mics like Church Audio. The developer has told me that supplying, for example, +48v to his mics would "fry" them. His 9v battery box does a good job of increasing the signal to "Mic In" but does nothing for "Line In."
At the same time, he doesn't assert that a battery used to increase the performance of the microphone will approach a pre-amp in any way -- meaning it's not, NOT ready for Line In.
http://www.giant-squid-audio-lab.com/gs/gs-micline1.html
I have used the H2 with Mic In, I have used it with Line In when using the Shure FP23 pre-amp. The signal through the pre-amp is wholly superior. But for a $200 recorder to use a $400 pre-amp is not cost-effective, IMHO.
Your not saying I am confused are you? ;)
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But for a $200 recorder to use a $400 pre-amp is not cost-effective, IMHO.
I dunno. I've used my H2 with Church Audio's CA-11 cards and the CA-9100 preamp plugged into into the line in with very good results. It makes for a nice portable package with the H2 handling D/A conversion and acting as a solid-state bit bucket. The Church Audio gear is better than the mic/preamp setup built into the H2 and that way I can run the mics up a stand (or elsewhere) while being able to monitor the H2 screen easily. There may be more affordable or more practical ways to go about it but I bought the H2 first then later stepped up things with the Church Audio package.
I now use a Studio Projects C4>UA-5>laptop DAW setup when I can but the CA-11>CA-9100>H2 rig gives me a small portable and easily powered rig for those shows where power and/or discretion is a problem. Then if I need to, I can just run the H2 which works quite nicely and discretely hidden inside its black storage bag (don't throw it away!). I've gotten some ok recordings with the recorder in my top pocket that way!
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Ok can someone give me some of the main issues with performance that the H2 has.
Well, for starters, there is someone who claims to be an audio authority who says that the H2 is junk. ;)
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Ok can someone give me some of the main issues with performance that the H2 has.
Well, for starters, there is someone who claims to be an audio authority who says that the H2 is junk. ;)
Well if your referring to me I do think that its not the best built recording device I have ever looked at the insides of.. But I don't think its total junk.. I was actually trying to come up with a few useful mods for it. I have one now here at my shop for testing.. I have done some tests on it and I can see some areas where I can improve the performance. I still don't really get your point. Maybe you could tell me exactly what your talking about.
I just realized that your Philip from Washago the same guy that wanted to do a local pickup at my house and I said no. Are you still mad at me because I said no? or do you have a point ;) I told you that a preamp would not make a huge difference for your application because the noise floor would still be too great. You got pissed off.. Because I said the preamp in the H2 is junk and to be honest it is. My point to these post in the H2 thread are to try and come up with useful mods for this product, like the mod I came up with for the Edirol R-09.
Chris
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Ok I did my first tape using the Zoom H2 yesterday..
Had to go Mic in cause Line in is broken.. set the plug in power to off, so my (really basic) rig was:
AT831s > SP-SPSB-1 (w/ bass roll-off at 95Hz) > Zoom H2 (Mic in)
Tape came out fine.. Sure not A++.. I dont have an edirol recorder with schoeps mics, so thats not possible..
Anyways, was very happy with the result overall.. Mic in definitely made the sound alot hotter the line in, but that was ok for this particulair gig..
Well, thanks for the help everyone! I will take my Zoom H2 back to the store anyways, cause of the line in.. want a new one
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Ok can someone give me some of the main issues with performance that the H2 has.
Well, for starters, there is someone who claims to be an audio authority who says that the H2 is junk. ;)
Well if your referring to me I do think that its not the best built recording device I have ever looked at the insides of.. But I don't think its total junk.. I was actually trying to come up with a few useful mods for it. I have one now here at my shop for testing.. I have done some tests on it and I can see some areas where I can improve the performance. I still don't really get your point. Maybe you could tell me exactly what your talking about.
I just realized that your Philip from Washago the same guy that wanted to do a local pickup at my house and I said no. Are you still mad at me because I said no? or do you have a point ;) I told you that a preamp would not make a huge difference for your application because the noise floor would still be too great. You got pissed off.. Because I said the preamp in the H2 is junk and to be honest it is. My point to these post in the H2 thread are to try and come up with useful mods for this product, like the mod I came up with for the Edirol R-09.
Chris
I am not at all "pissed off". I understand why you would not want strangers coming to your house. You have forgotten that in fact we arranged to meet at the Tim's Donuts near your place for a pick-up recently and that arrangement was perfectly satisfactory to me. Anyone on this board can understand that I'd want to avoid shipping charges when I only live 45 minutes away from you.
I just don't understand how someone who dismissed the H2 so completely could suddenly be in the business of providing mods that don't address the main issue you raised.
You wrote:
"I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. When I SAY a recorder is junk it's junk. I have tested this recorder in my lab: the self noise was out of control."
I assume you do not think the H2 is in the same class, preamp-wise, with the Edirol.
Anyway, I think your idea to provide mic in's for the four internals is a good idea that I've been thinking about for awhile. What about a four channel preamp? Or a fix for the line-in?
Don't worry. I'm on your side. We Muskokans have to stick together -- it's so bloody cold! ;D
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Ok can someone give me some of the main issues with performance that the H2 has.
Well, for starters, there is someone who claims to be an audio authority who says that the H2 is junk. ;)
Well if your referring to me I do think that its not the best built recording device I have ever looked at the insides of.. But I don't think its total junk.. I was actually trying to come up with a few useful mods for it. I have one now here at my shop for testing.. I have done some tests on it and I can see some areas where I can improve the performance. I still don't really get your point. Maybe you could tell me exactly what your talking about.
I just realized that your Philip from Washago the same guy that wanted to do a local pickup at my house and I said no. Are you still mad at me because I said no? or do you have a point ;) I told you that a preamp would not make a huge difference for your application because the noise floor would still be too great. You got pissed off.. Because I said the preamp in the H2 is junk and to be honest it is. My point to these post in the H2 thread are to try and come up with useful mods for this product, like the mod I came up with for the Edirol R-09.
Chris
I am not at all "pissed off". I understand why you would not want strangers coming to your house. You have forgotten that in fact we arranged to meet at the Tim's Donuts near your place for a pick-up recently and that arrangement was perfectly satisfactory to me. Anyone on this board can understand that I'd want to avoid shipping charges when I only live 45 minutes away from you.
I just don't understand how someone who dismissed the H2 so completely could suddenly be in the business of providing mods that don't address the main issue you raised.
You wrote:
"I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. When I SAY a recorder is junk it's junk. I have tested this recorder in my lab: the self noise was out of control."
I assume you do not think the H2 is in the same class, preamp-wise, with the Edirol.
Anyway, I think your idea to provide mic in's for the four internals is a good idea that I've been thinking about for awhile. What about a four channel preamp? Or a fix for the line-in?
Don't worry. I'm on your side. We Muskokans have to stick together -- it's so bloody cold! ;D
Anyone who can spell Muskokans cant be all that bad. ;) Give me a call some time you have my number, I think if not send me a pm.
Chris
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Ok can someone give me some of the main issues with performance that the H2 has.
Well, for starters, there is someone who claims to be an audio authority who says that the H2 is junk. ;)
Well if your referring to me I do think that its not the best built recording device I have ever looked at the insides of.. But I don't think its total junk.. I was actually trying to come up with a few useful mods for it. I have one now here at my shop for testing.. I have done some tests on it and I can see some areas where I can improve the performance. I still don't really get your point. Maybe you could tell me exactly what your talking about.
I just realized that your Philip from Washago the same guy that wanted to do a local pickup at my house and I said no. Are you still mad at me because I said no? or do you have a point ;) I told you that a preamp would not make a huge difference for your application because the noise floor would still be too great. You got pissed off.. Because I said the preamp in the H2 is junk and to be honest it is. My point to these post in the H2 thread are to try and come up with useful mods for this product, like the mod I came up with for the Edirol R-09.
Chris
I am not at all "pissed off". I understand why you would not want strangers coming to your house. You have forgotten that in fact we arranged to meet at the Tim's Donuts near your place for a pick-up recently and that arrangement was perfectly satisfactory to me. Anyone on this board can understand that I'd want to avoid shipping charges when I only live 45 minutes away from you.
I just don't understand how someone who dismissed the H2 so completely could suddenly be in the business of providing mods that don't address the main issue you raised.
You wrote:
"I have been a sound engineer for 20 years. When I SAY a recorder is junk it's junk. I have tested this recorder in my lab: the self noise was out of control."
I assume you do not think the H2 is in the same class, preamp-wise, with the Edirol.
Anyway, I think your idea to provide mic in's for the four internals is a good idea that I've been thinking about for awhile. What about a four channel preamp? Or a fix for the line-in?
Don't worry. I'm on your side. We Muskokans have to stick together -- it's so bloody cold! ;D
Anyone who can spell Muskokans cant be all that bad. ;) Give me a call some time you have my number, I think if not send me a pm.
Chris
Will do, Chris. Here's hoping the firewood lasts to the end of April. ;D
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Chris,
I think the mod you're talking about is a great idea. It would love to be able to record mics to 2 channels and record the soundboard to the other 2 channels.
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Great mod idea just make sure it can leave 2 internals on while imputing 2 external line inputs from board or other mics
That would be the cats pajamas for me :)
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Upgrade the internal mics and preamp and if possible make it so the mics could be used in conjuntion with the line in for on the fly matrixes.
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Did you manage the mod?
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As far as I am concerned, the most significant problem with the H2 (and one which puzzles me greatly) is that recording via the mic inputs is very noisy compared with the internal mics, which I'd rate as being commendably quiet for the price (and quantity!).
It's as though the mic input socket goes through a completely different preamp from the built in mics - but why??!
So, the most simple requirement would be that the external mic socket (complete with its provision of "plug in power" ) should be routed through the same quiet preamp as the built in mics, instead of the naff preamp it currently uses.
Maybe it's the plugin power requirement which meant that they had to use a different preamp route?
Access to two preamps would of course be even better, if a second mic input were added.
Line input is fine, though over-sensitive.
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Hi guys the mod I have come up with is a pretty simple one. But I think it could allow for a more flexible recording system. I have installed two 3.5mm jacks on either side of the mic housing that once connected to a pair of battery boxes can be used to connect external microphones to your H2 so you can record with 2 stereo pairs of mics.. I think it might be pretty cool. Its a very simple mod to do most of you can do it if you have skills with a soldering iron and a razor blade :) I will post pictures in the next week once I am finished with it. When the external mics are plugged in it shuts off the internal mics.
Chris
BTW the internal mics are primo capsules.
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Sounds cool and sounds like a mod I might be willing to try myself. I can finally put some of the electronics school training to work :D
I assume what you mean by "primo capsules" is the brand, not an indication of the quality.
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Sounds cool and sounds like a mod I might be willing to try myself. I can finally put some of the electronics school training to work :D
I assume what you mean by "primo capsules" is the brand, not an indication of the quality.
Hi the primo mics are available at http://www.primomic.com/ they are EM-135
The 3.5 mm jacks that I am using I will post tomorrow when I get back into my office.
Chris
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Cool thang :D ! No pad?
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Cool thang :D ! No pad?
No pad but if your using a pair of mics that have my mod in them you dont need one... Or a pair of AT 853 mics with my 4.7k mod.
Chris
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Interesting. Would you be able to use one pair internal and one pair external mics at the same time?
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Cool thang :D ! No pad?
No pad but if your using a pair of mics that have my mod in them you dont need one... Or a pair of AT 853 mics with my 4.7k mod.
Ah, you replaced the internal mics. I didn't realize this. So you used the EM-135 for your mod? Which where the orginal ones? Are you shure that the 5dB difference will make it?
Thanks, micmonster
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Interesting. Would you be able to use one pair internal and one pair external mics at the same time?
Yes you would.
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Cool thang :D ! No pad?
No pad but if your using a pair of mics that have my mod in them you dont need one... Or a pair of AT 853 mics with my 4.7k mod.
Ah, you replaced the internal mics. I didn't realize this. So you used the EM-135 for your mod? Which where the orginal ones? Are you shure that the 5dB difference will make it?
Thanks, micmonster
No the internal mics are primo mics EM-135 from the factory. And actually they are not half bad. Part of the problem is the orientation of the capsules. I dont personally agree with.. I will take pictures in the next week or so and show you.
Chris
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Thanks man! Looking forward to this.
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I seem to remember that you made some very small battery boxes, do you still make those?
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I seem to remember that you made some very small battery boxes, do you still make those?
Yep. I still make them.
Chris
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How much are they? Looks like I might be sending some money back your way. LOL, too bad we didn't think of this a day or so ago!
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With this mod it seems to me that it would be possible to do a mid-side recording. Just run a pair of omnis for one pair and a cardioid for the other "pair". You'd need some software to decode it but I read somewhere that there is some. Blumlein theoretically should be possible as well. I am right about this?
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You can derive an MS-type signal from the stock H2, but in practice I've not been able to tell the difference between the result and non-MS techniques. Basically, you might just as well manipulate the widths and front / rear balances of the stereo pairs in your DAW and end up with the same result. The fact that you can do that is one of the attractions of the H2 for me (recording acoustic performances in natural spaces).
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You can derive an MS-type signal from the stock H2, but in practice I've not been able to tell the difference between the result and non-MS techniques.
How? (Not meant to sound snotty, just curious)
Basically, you might just as well manipulate the widths and front / rear balances of the stereo pairs in your DAW and end up with the same result. The fact that you can do that is one of the attractions of the H2 for me (recording acoustic performances in natural spaces).
Again, how are you manipulating the widths? I can see how to adjust front/rear balance easy enough but I guess I'm too much of a n00b to know how to adjust widths.
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If you don't mind hopping over to the H2 forum at http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=9751&highlight=side then you'll find more info on this than you'll ever need - some of which went over my head! - but do ask here if you need more info having checked out that source.
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Thanks, I'll definitely check it out. +T
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got the replacement H2 today...1st one had only left channel on line-in.
well, i tested the line in now on the new H2 with my mics+preamp, all fine.
then i tested it with my bbox+mics =>bingo, same fault again.
seems my SP-SPSB-9 12V bbox is killing the right channels on edirol r-09 and zoom H2s......
after that i tried it 1 more time with my preamp, same fault...only left channel recording.
had no problem with this bbox on my former iriver and my sony mz-rh1 recorders.
IF my 12v bbox causes the fault, HOW the hell can that happen technically?
well, i won´t send it in for replacement a 2nd time...my intention is to use the internal mics only.....
Is it a mono microphone?
Page 6 of the manual states, "If a mono mic is used, only the left channel signal will be recorded."
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"The latest System version 1.30 has been released. The major changes from previous version are as follows.
Shortened the processing time of MP3 ENCODE / DIVIDE / NORMALIZE function.
And needed no free space on SD card in DIVIDE function".
I can think of things I'd have personally preferred to see. Ah well. The long processing time that this seems to fix did look like a sizeable bug though, and maybe bugfixes take priority over FRs.
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I need the mod :) !
Firmware update done, but not yet tested...
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I'm still loking forward for the mods, could you post a pic ot two Chris?
thanks
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I'm still loking forward for the mods, could you post a pic ot two Chris?
thanks
I am sorry the mods did not work as expected and I gave up on it. I wish I could say they were successful but not everything I try works out..
Chris
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What about positioning the different way to increase the spl?
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What about positioning the different way to increase the spl?
I dont get your question sorry.
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Cool thang :D ! No pad?
No pad but if your using a pair of mics that have my mod in them you dont need one... Or a pair of AT 853 mics with my 4.7k mod.
Ah, you replaced the internal mics. I didn't realize this. So you used the EM-135 for your mod? Which where the orginal ones? Are you shure that the 5dB difference will make it?
No the internal mics are primo mics EM-135 from the factory. And actually they are not half bad. Part of the problem is the orientation of the capsules. I dont personally agree with.. I will take pictures in the next week or so and show you.
As I read the specs of the EM-135 I realized that they have 120dB spl and understood you comment, that you could rearrange the position of the mics to make them work better.
If I'm wrong - which capsules could you recommend to increase the spl?
Thanks, mic
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I'm still loking forward for the mods, could you post a pic ot two Chris?
thanks
I am sorry the mods did not work as expected and I gave up on it. I wish I could say they were successful but not everything I try works out..
Chris
I know what you mean. Every trial mod is a journey. Sometimes destroying the components involved...
Richard
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I just found a pic of one open for those interested, here's the mic array...
(http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/images/zoomH2-open.jpg)
...from http://picasaweb.google.com/surround2011org/ZOOMH2
digifish
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If the mic capsules are being overloaded not the pre amp / electronics how bout( This may seem silly but) what about some sonic attenuation on the capsules themselves like the better wide band earplugs that attenuate several db spl over wideband.?
KT
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If the mic capsules are being overloaded not the pre amp / electronics how bout( This may seem silly but) what about some sonic attenuation on the capsules themselves like the better wide band earplugs that attenuate several db spl over wideband.?
KT
I tried to mod the mic capsules to reduce distortion I was able to do that but... It came at a huge cost of increased noise floor. So reducing the distortion is not the only problem what is needed is a reduction of distortion and then a buffer amp with a slight boost to gain back some of the lost sensitivity from the mod. Its a pointless exercise because the benefits are out weighed by the degradation of the S/N and the cost of the mod would be almost 75% of the cost of the H2...
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excellent & logical responce. I often think we already got WAY more capability than we have a right to considering the price! I for one can live with its short commings. But then if the isolation material was
removable like a wind cover :) sorry the engineer in me wanted to solve the problem regardless of $
Thanks
Kevin
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Zoom H2 ASIO driver has been released - see http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/download/software/h2.php#c - should enable much better experience when using the H2 as an audio interface with many recording / DAW applications. Note that you have to have system software 1.3 installed first.
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Note that you have to have system software 1.3 installed first.
. . . and Windows. . . (the ASIO driver installs from a .exe file)
Operation environment
=====================
- H2 System Version 1.30 or later
- Operating system: Windows XP (SP2 or later) / Windows Vista
- Verified application: Steinberg Cubase LE4
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If the mic capsules are being overloaded not the pre amp / electronics how bout( This may seem silly but) what about some sonic attenuation on the capsules themselves like the better wide band earplugs that attenuate several db spl over wideband.?
I tried to mod the mic capsules to reduce distortion I was able to do that but... It came at a huge cost of increased noise floor. So reducing the distortion is not the only problem what is needed is a reduction of distortion and then a buffer amp with a slight boost to gain back some of the lost sensitivity from the mod. Its a pointless exercise because the benefits are out weighed by the degradation of the S/N and the cost of the mod would be almost 75% of the cost of the H2...
That's bad news :-[ . Do you have another idea to increase the spl? Whould it make sense to change the capsules to achieve a higher spl? If yes, which capsules would you recommend (they should be available in germany)?
Thanks, micmonster
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No idea?