Topic: Your ultimate fantasy stealth rig (ignore price). nBox Vs XLR

[EricM]

Hi Members,

I'm still a beginner with stealth taping and I intend to learn this artform as best as I can.

I wonder what are other members ultimate fantasy stealth rigs? Please ignore cost.

At the moment I have an M10, with AT943 stereo cardioid L and R mics with a 12volt battery box.

I'm very pleased with my results for my first 3 shows.

I'm interested in perhaps going the Roland r26 with L and R XLR mics. Cardioids. Probably Audio Technica U853's.

But my question is I don't understand the big advantages of these nBox's and Tiny Boxes I keep reading about. Why wouldn't a taper use an r26 with simple XLR mics? and forget about these boxes.

I would be grateful if members could please break this down for me at a beginner level.

In my opinion an R26 with XLR mics are easily stealthable.

I will be interested to read everyones comments.

Thank you.

[bombdiggity]

You probably need to do more research. 

Breaking some things down:

The mic connection is somewhat irrelevant to the ultimate result but:

All mics need to be powered.  A few mostly real old school ones had batteries in them (Nakamichis for example).  Otherwise they need to be powered by an external source. 

Miniature mics (of your AT 853/943 variety) can be powered by 12V or less (often down to 3V, which is what your M10 puts out in "plug-in power" through the mic input).  Mics at this level of power have thin minijack sized cables (and don't necessarily require a separate power supply if the recorder provides sufficient power through the mic input).  They are therefore somewhat easier to use in low profile situations (mics and recorder with a very thin cable in between)... 

Larger diameter mics require phantom power (48V), leaving aside tubes or more esoteric options that certainly aren't low profile.  That can less often be supplied by a recorder (unless it is a much larger recorder like an R-44, though the smaller R-26 does provide phantom power).  Phantom power requires thicker cables (usually XLR, though there are active cable options with a range of different connections that will carry it as well).  Larger diameter mics are larger, they usually have mic bodies (amplifiers), power supplies, thicker cables, etc. that make them much less low profile. 

Generally speaking larger diameter mics have a much fuller flatter response than miniatures.  The quality of miniature mics tends to be limited by their physical size.  Not to say you can't make a good recording with them nor that all large mics are "better" than all tiny ones, but there is a very real engineering problem in the proportions... 

As to power supplies (of which a Tiny Box and an Nbox are examples of minitaurized pre-amp power supplies) what you get depends on your taste (they have slightly different sonic signatures, differing sizes, costs, etc.) and your needs. 

At the most basic level a battery box just provides suitable current to miniature mics to power most of them (allowing you to go line-in rather than mic-in and bypass the amplifier in the recorder).  It feeds power (generally at a higher level than a recorder's plug-in power) but doesn't have amplification circuitry in it.  The M-10 has nice mic power circuitry, so assuming you get enough power for your mics running mic-in you may be fine with that.  Moving on from there goes into preamps. 

An Nbox only provides phantom power and is typically used with active cables to lower the profile of larger mics (usually Schoeps).  A Tinybox can be designed to provide 12V (for tiny mics), or 48V phantom, or both.  Depends on how it was built.  Pre-amps can get considerably larger than these small options and some can power more then two mics, etc. 

IMO beyond location and technique the mics themselves are the most important component of the chain.  They have very different flavors and signatures and different ones are relatively better or worse for different situations. 

I suspect your 943's are better mics than the 853's (though I haven't looked at specs).  Both are miniature.  I sort of thought 853's are mini-cable not XLR cable?  Putting XLR's on them won't make them better. 

Among mini-mics the ones that seem to provide the best results might in range (generally from from brighter to bassier) be some like:  AT's, Sonic Studios DSM-6, SP-CMC-25's, DPA's.  Note that DPA's have a higher power requirement so will not run on 3V plug-in power.  They require something more robust to power them (I think they need 8.5 or 9V?). 

Moving to larger diameter mics but trying to stay lowest profile usually means using an active cable system (where the capsules are at the business end of relatively thinner cables and the amplification elements are at the other end near the recorder).  That in conjunction with a small pre-amp and a small recorder can be fairly low profile.  Schoeps are the most widely used but other mics offer a capsule system and components to go active.  Active cables are expensive, the amplifiers are expensive and the caps can be really expensive.  Much better mics but probably a $2K investment minimum (these days, which is lower than it was). 

Another option is regular full size mics (which is how it was usually done old school).  That gives the widest array of options but is not very low profile.  More of a challenge but can be done... 

[EricM]

^ Thanks a lot for your excellent reply bombdiggity.

I have read it a few times already and will keep referencing it. I'm still researching the different equipment and stealth techniques.

I will keep reading about the nBoxes and mic types. I do like the looks of the Roland R26. But as you said Mic quality is most important.

Thanks again for your big effort with your detailed reply.

[StuStu]

Since price isn't an issue, the Sonosax MiniR82 would be my choice for a stealth reorder. It has phantom power, 8 channels, digi in, etc. No need to run a separate box to power your mics. Then it's just a question of which Schoeps mics to run?


http://www.sonosax.ch/recorders/minir82/minir82_main.html

[EricM]

^ Whoa! Ha Ha. That's awesome. When I saw the photo of it I was probably about $900. Lol.

Thanks for listing your ultimate gear. Are you happy with your R26?

[StuStu]

^ Whoa! Ha Ha. That's awesome. When I saw the photo of it I was probably about $900. Lol.

Thanks for listing your ultimate gear. Are you happy with your R26?

The R26 is nice and very easy to use. Touchscreen laptops don't do much/anything for me. However, a touchscreen on a relatively small recorder is a great feature. I bought it used to have as a backup four channel recorder. I'm sure if you search the recorder in the Recording Gear section, you'll find pages and pages of useful information. Good luck with your gear hunt.

[tedyun]

Hi Eric,

The biggest advantage of the Nbox rig is the fact that it is a lower cost solution to run Schoeps capsules in a low profile manner. The Nbox and cable basically substitutes the microphone bodies and a preamp. There are solutions available to run low profile using all Schoeps cables and preamps, but they are expensive.

The Tinybox is another solution which is slightly lower-cost (but out of production). Another low cost solution are the PFA adapters that Naiant makes which I believe will allow you to connect an Nbob cable or a KCY cable. In this setup, you can plug the PFA into that Roland R26. So it's all about balancing cost and sonic quality.

At that point, you start running into the question of which is the best preamp? Nbox, Tinybox, Roland R26, or other preamps. And then you can drive yourself crazy reading about, then trying to listen for noise, warmth, transparency, etc., etc.

Worse is when you really start getting into it, you might end up buying different mics, preamps trying to convince yourself that the sonic differences are worth the extra $$$!

At that point, you've become a true taper! 

Ted

BTW, in terms of the dream stealth rig, I have to say the Nbob>Nbox-Platinum>Sony M10 exceeds my expectations in terms of low-pro and quality. I recently took it out for its maiden voyage in my hands:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=585195

[pohaku]

Although I don't  , I largely have my fantasy rig.  Schoeps caps >KCY cable>tiny box>M10.  I've got alternates, but that rig works like a charm.  You could swap the N-box for the tiny box and end up in essentially the same place - just a matter of taste.  If I was going to run full body mics, then I would probably just use PFAs into my tiny box to keep the size of the gear down, but that would still be less low pro than using a KCY active set up.  Or alternatively, I recently acquired a pair of Schoeps CMBI bodies (battery powered microphone bodies) that allow me to just go straight into an M10 or other small recorder.  No preamp or phantom power device necessary.  So one less box, but bigger mics than the KCY active set up. 

[EricM]

^ Thank you gentlemen.  I read all of your posts above.  I will keep coming back to this thread for my reference.

Is something like this possible?  An MK41 matched pair with XLR outputs straight into a Roland R-26?  Utilising the phantom power provided by the R-26?  How would that sound for a high grade stealth rig?

Is that possible?  I think I would like to end up going with a simple 3 piece set up.  A pair of stealthy matched XLR's straight into an R-26.  But with MK41's.  I realise it's expensive but it seems like it would deliver pretty high grade audio (if the taping situation is good of course).

[StuStu]

^ Thank you gentlemen.  I read all of your posts above.  I will keep coming back to this thread for my reference.

Is something like this possible?  An MK41 matched pair with XLR outputs straight into a Roland R-26?  Utilising the phantom power provided by the R-26?  How would that sound for a high grade stealth rig?

Is that possible?  I think I would like to end up going with a simple 3 piece set up.  A pair of stealthy matched XLR's straight into an R-26.  But with MK41's.  I realise it's expensive but it seems like it would deliver pretty high grade audio (if the taping situation is good of course).

You can run MK41>Schoeps KCY or an Nbob active cable>Naiant PFA>R-26. Yes, this rig would sound nice.

[jbell]

I don't stealth tape, but the Schoeps caps>KCY > Tinybox > M10 is a way smaller setup than the R26 for stealthing.  The Tinybox is discontinued, but you could get an Nbox with a slightly larger footprint. 


Size comparision:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=150752.0

[tedyun]

There also might be another option, which is Jon's new product the IPA:

http://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/inline-devices/ipa-flexible-power-inline-amplifier/

I really haven't figured this one out yet, and I haven't seen much discussion here on TS. Jon's product page is a bit too technical for me. This looks like a microphone preamp for actives. It appears that you can plug in various active cables (including KCY and Nbob), and the IPA will correctly power them. He has options for MBHO, Beyers, and other mics. I think Nick can make Nbobs for Gefells and AKG, but I am not sure if IPA will correctly power them.

The powering of this IPA is what confuses me. It appears to have an internal battery and can accept external power as well. What I am wondering is if the power to the capsules will vary based on the powering source.

But anyway, it looks like you can go Schoeps caps > Nbob > IPA > Sony M10, or Schoeps caps > KCY > IPA > Sony M10. Those would be a pretty low pro and sweet sounding setups!!

[aaronji]

Maybe the CCM41 would be a good option, too.  Works with any P48 source.

[StuStu]

^^^I hadn't seen the IPA yet. That looks very interesting.


I agree that a Tinybox>M10 is a great sounding rig. I would prefer to go that route than use the internal preamps of the R26. I wonder if the IPA has a similar sound to the Littlebox, Tinybox, etc.?

[bombdiggity]

^ Thank you gentlemen.  I read all of your posts above.  I will keep coming back to this thread for my reference.

Is something like this possible?  An MK41 matched pair with XLR outputs straight into a Roland R-26?  Utilising the phantom power provided by the R-26?  How would that sound for a high grade stealth rig?

Is that possible?  I think I would like to end up going with a simple 3 piece set up.  A pair of stealthy matched XLR's straight into an R-26.  But with MK41's.  I realise it's expensive but it seems like it would deliver pretty high grade audio (if the taping situation is good of course).

Schoeps and other capsule mics are a two-piece system.  The capsules themselves do not have XLR connections.  The capsules do connect to amplifier bodies (specifically the Schoeps CMC 6 Ug) that have an XLR end that a phantom power supplying deck could run.  In that configuration you have "pencil mics" that are fairly small (maybe 6" long) but not the same profile as capsules on the end of a cable. 

As noted just above if you are willing to drop the interchangability of the capsules Schoeps' CCM series miniturizes the amplifier and attaches it to the capsule followed by essentially a built in cable that will run to a recorder supplying phantom power.  So their CCM41 or CCM4 would essentially plug (with the proper specialized cables) directly into a recorder supplying phantom power with all the rest taken care of. 

All the other systems are different ways of replacing the amplifier bodies with an alternative lower profile setup.  Many ways are suggested here but essentially the tinybox or Nbox or something else at the other end of an active cable replaces the bodies. 

To be precise the conventional setup (for me) is:

Schoeps MK4V capsules mounted on CMC6Ug bodies > standard XLR cables >  Oade Concert Modded Edirol R-44 (which supplies phantom power) with an external DVD battery attached since the R-44 doesn't run too long on the 4 AA's inside it. 

This is decidedly not low profile though I have run this 007. 

My lower profile option is:

Schoeps MK4V capsules mounted on CMC6Ug bodies > standard XLR cables >  Tinybox > mini adapter cable > Sony PCM M-10 

There are a number of ways this section of it:

Schoeps MK4V capsule mounted on CMC6Ug bodies > standard XLR cables 

could be switched to something involving only the capsules attached to active cables terminating to this:

Tinybox > mini adapter cable > Sony PCM M-10  (or the Tinybox could be switched to an Nbox, etc.)

Theoretically where you're lowering your profile is getting the capsules directly on cables. 

My low pro setup is:

SP-CMC-25's > Tinybox > mini adapter cable > Sony PCM M-10 
 
I don't need to 007 enough for it to have been worth it to me to invest in all the active components... 


One thought to consider is the 41 capsules vs. the 4 capsules.  They definitely sound different.  The 41's a tighter pattern/less ambient/open.  If you run at the back of large halls they may be the better choice.  If you run close in small rooms to my ear they're not.  There may also be the further consideration of the V vs. non-V options in either series.  As mentioned I run 4V's.  I'm not sure if the V's may be a little more challenging to mount in a 007 situation (opinions/methods vary).  The typical 007 mount does not actually orient the mics properly which doesn't seem to matter much, though I'm sure one could hear the difference in a true direct comparison to V's mounted vertically.  However in 007 you are generally compromising your positioning/mounting to some degree almost regardless. 


If you're seriously considering Schoeps spend some time here: http://www.schoeps.de/en/products learning more about their options straight from the source.  They offer their own products to accomplish the same things but those have tended to be more costly than the third party versions (Nboxes and Tinyboxes and alternative cable makers).  With the exchange rate these days the marginal cost difference may not be much.  Sometimes used of any/all of this turns up in the YS as well. 


The other question not addressed here is what sort of battery life the R-26 has when phantom powering mics?  I have no idea.  You might end up in a situation where you need an external battery (which is another brick).  An advantage to a pre-amp is that the low profile options have a battery of their own inside which lowers the drain on the battery in the deck.