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Author Topic: Zoom H5/H6 vs Tascam DR-70d vs Tascam DR-680 mk2 for classical recordings  (Read 11066 times)

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Offline achabloop5080

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Hi guys,
I usually record myself performing classical piano recitals with Schoeps mics, Millennia pres and Metric Halo converters but this time I need "extreme" portability and simple setting up (I don't want to take with me too much gear and computer)...
I will record a series of classical solo piano recitals in different venues (some with beautiful acoustics, others not so much) and I'm also the pianist, so I'm planning to take 2 Schoeps mk21 and 2 Neumann km183 and I'm in the market for a good 4 channel recorder with good preamps and A/D conversion...
Most of the time I think I'll stick with 2 channel recording, but it would be useful to have the possibility to add 2 mics.
I tried a Zoom H6 and I liked it somewhat, nothing spectacular but very simple to operate and good overall sound (only a little congested)....
Sound Devices is out of my budget for now :-(
Any suggestions?
Thank you
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 03:11:22 PM by achabloop5080 »

Offline 2manyrocks

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Never had a Zoom to comment, but I have a 70d and a 680mki.  There's a comparison recording of the 70d vs the 680mkii in the 680mkii thread.  To my ears, a very slight edge went to 680mkii---and I mean very slight.  For ease of use, I absolutely prefer the 70d.  It seems to have an easier menu and can be powered for hours with any common 5v external cell battery.  There have been several discussions about powering the 680 with either 9v or 12v, and I won't get into that here.  The 680 does allow you to gang stereo channels, but the 70d does not.  I'm not sure I've even used my 680 since buying the 70d. 




Offline voltronic

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Hi, fellow classical pianist here and 70D owner.  While it will never compete with your Millenia preamp for transparency and low noise (few things probably will), I can say that to my ears the onboard pres of the 70D will get the job done for you.  I had my unit modified according to Jim Williams specs and it gained in overall clarity, especially in attack of the piano and consonants with my choir recordings.  If that interests you, we can discuss that over PM and not clog the thread with all of that.

Otherwise the stock 70D sounds quite good, much better than the H6 preamps for classical recording.  One of my co-workers has an H6 and a m/s setup of MK4/MK8 that I have used to record his choirs.  With those mics, I've found the following to be the quality order of best to worst:

1.mics > FP24 > M10,  tied with mics > 70D JWMod
2. mics > 70D stock
3. mics > H6

Not being able to gang channels on the 70D is an annoyance, but the gain is digital, moving in 2dB steps with a few degrees of pot travel before the gain jumps up.  As a result, it is possible to match channel gain levels, as long as you're careful.  Matched channel pairs is all I ever do, and it works for me.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 07:54:13 PM by voltronic »
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Hi, fellow classical pianist here and 70D owner.  While it will never compete with your Millenia preamp for transparency and low noise (few things probably will), I can say that to my ears the onboard pres of the 70D will get the job done for you.  I had my unit modified according to Jim Williams specs and it gained in overall clarity, especially in attack of the piano and consonants with my choir recordings.  If that interests you, we can discuss that over PM and not clog the thread with all of that.

NO! Clog it - this is just what is needed - a separate thread about a very interesting topic!!!

This is not the 70D Maxi-thread...post away!

Offline F.O.Bean

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Ive used about every HQ portable preamp out there, including a few all-in-ones, and I can honestly say that the 70d preamps/ADC is one of the best sounding, and easy to use decks I've EVER used! And its preamps are on PAR with my Schoeps VMS preamp! I have TONS of comps on archive.org, running mk4>PFA>70d preamps, and mk41>VMS preamps>70d, and IMO, the 70d preamps sound VERY fast and detailed and overall AMAZING! I still cant believe this deck only costs $200/$250! I just sold my last M10 to pick up another 70d because I was so happy with my 1st one ;D And that's after owning a v2/v3/Sonosax/Lemosax/M148/722/3-4 LB's/2 M10's and a slew of other gear! If you have HQ mics[which you do], then they will sound legit running the 70d preamps! And for a couple hundred $$, its a no brainer 8)

Damn, after reading that, I should get paid to fluff the 70d lol :P ;D 8) JK of course!!!

I would get a 70d, and an approved SD card from Tascam's website and be done with it!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline voltronic

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And its preamps are on PAR with my Schoeps VMS preamp!

Seriously?!?!?  I really like my 70D, but that seems hard to believe.  My FP24 is definitely a superior preamp to the stock 70D; after the modification it's about a tossup like I said.  I've never had the pleasure of using a VMS though so I can't really challenge you too much on that. ::)  EDIT: It looks like you are using VMS > 70D, so that preamp must be at least some benefit over the stock 70D, right?  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174394.msg2184129#msg2184129

OK, back to the issue at hand...

The one caution on the 70D preamps that I throw out there to all classical  / acoustic recording people: The HIGH+ gain range is so noisy it is nearly unusable.  Jim Williams has said that this is due to the transistors in the input stage.  The good news is that you'll probably never need to actually use HIGH+ for music recording (up to +63 dB which is a lot).  HIGH goes up to +51dB of gain, and the noise floor is still decent there.  But you probably won't even go that high.  I find myself using the MID range (up to +36dB) most often for solo piano, or small chamber choir and instrumental ensemble recording; LOW (up to +21dB) for louder classical stuff (large choir, brass, organ, etc.).  If you really need more than 50 dB of low-noise gain, you need to step up to Sound Devices or something of similar quality (and expense).

Here's a couple of recent recordings I've made direct into the 70D.  Note that my unit has been modified so it's a bit more transparent than stock, but it's a subtle change so this should still give you a decent idea.  Both of these recordings have had gentle iZotope RX noise reduction to knock down the loud HVAC rumble found in both venues.

1. Pro woodwind quintet, huge modern cathedral-like church with 5-second+ decay.  I was able to record in my preferred location, which was a tall stand right behind the conductor.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r57qbct32lxfmo4/AACaNPqEQiZCXtdVWTkuWWCLa?dl=0
DPA 4061 at 50cm > Naiant PFA > 70D (MID gain)

2. Choir (amateur amalgamation for a benefit concert), brass & perc (pros), organ (pro on a rented digital Allen).  Small HS auditorium.  This was forced to be from the balcony because of union rules so the choir sounds a world away, but you can sure hear everyone else.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iy8y3nzkpw9jod7/AABZzysfCdF3yPjQ9D5XOZzia?dl=0
"Faulkner II" array of 47cm/90deg CM3 (wide card) with 67cm/90deg X-Q (omni) > 70D (LOW gain)

« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 10:24:03 PM by voltronic »
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
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Offline pohaku

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Of course Millennia does make the HV-32p portable two channel pre.  I have yet to see one, but 2 channels for @$1,000 new is pretty comparable to other higher end portable pres like Grace and 500 format lunchbox pres.   I have a couple Millennia TD-1s, which sound just great but are portable about like the original Compaq suitcase computer was portable.  Movable is probably a better description.  On the other hand, the TD-1s also have EQ, tube and SS direct topology and reamp, as well as a single channel of mic pre.  Kind of a Swiss Army knife, but luggable.  If you were just recording amplified rock or other popular music, I would suggest waiting on an external pre and seeing how you like the onboard pres first.  Modern all in one recorders have improved significantly and the benefit of outboard pres is now debatable in that instance.  I suspect classical and other nuanced and quieter music is a different animal.  Nonetheless, I think I would still give the onboard pres a shot first before dropping $$ on outboard pres.
Mics: akg c460 (ck61, ck63), c414buls, c568eb; at4049a, 4051a, 4053a, at853; josephson c42; neumann U87, km84i; beyer m130, m160, m500; aea r84; gefell m71, mt711s, m200, m201, um70S; sony c38; schoeps cmc6, CMBI (mk4, mk21, mk41, mk4v); sennheiser mkh30, mkh40, md421, md431, md541; audix m1290
Pres: API, a-designs, pendulum, purple, millennia TD-1 and HV-32P, gt, littlebox, tinybox, usbpre2, CA 9200, pipsqueak, grace V2, DAV BG1
Cables: KCY, CMR, Naiant AKG actives, PFAs, asst.  GAKables and Darktrain
Recorders/converters/monitors: dr680, m10, dr-2d, d50, zoom f8 & F8n pro, 788T SSD CL-8, lynx aurora 8, Neumann KH20


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Offline 2manyrocks

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^ what are your thoughts on the 70d recording quality vs your f8?

From the samples I listened to, I tend to think the 680mkii is a step up from the stock 70d in recording quality.  $600 vs $200 though. 

Offline F.O.Bean

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And its preamps are on PAR with my Schoeps VMS preamp!

Seriously?!?!?  I really like my 70D, but that seems hard to believe.  My FP24 is definitely a superior preamp to the stock 70D; after the modification it's about a tossup like I said.  I've never had the pleasure of using a VMS though so I can't really challenge you too much on that. ::)  EDIT: It looks like you are using VMS > 70D, so that preamp must be at least some benefit over the stock 70D, right?  http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174394.msg2184129#msg2184129

OK, back to the issue at hand...

The one caution on the 70D preamps that I throw out there to all classical  / acoustic recording people: The HIGH+ gain range is so noisy it is nearly unusable.  Jim Williams has said that this is due to the transistors in the input stage.  The good news is that you'll probably never need to actually use HIGH+ for music recording (up to +63 dB which is a lot).  HIGH goes up to +51dB of gain, and the noise floor is still decent there.  But you probably won't even go that high.  I find myself using the MID range (up to +36dB) most often for solo piano, or small chamber choir and instrumental ensemble recording; LOW (up to +21dB) for louder classical stuff (large choir, brass, organ, etc.).  If you really need more than 50 dB of low-noise gain, you need to step up to Sound Devices or something of similar quality (and expense).

Here's a couple of recent recordings I've made direct into the 70D.  Note that my unit has been modified so it's a bit more transparent than stock, but it's a subtle change so this should still give you a decent idea.  Both of these recordings have had gentle iZotope RX noise reduction to knock down the loud HVAC rumble found in both venues.

1. Pro woodwind quintet, huge modern cathedral-like church with 5-second+ decay.  I was able to record in my preferred location, which was a tall stand right behind the conductor.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/r57qbct32lxfmo4/AACaNPqEQiZCXtdVWTkuWWCLa?dl=0
DPA 4061 at 50cm > Naiant PFA > 70D (MID gain)

2. Choir (amateur amalgamation for a benefit concert), brass & perc (pros), organ (pro on a rented digital Allen).  Small HS auditorium.  This was forced to be from the balcony because of union rules so the choir sounds a world away, but you can sure hear everyone else.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iy8y3nzkpw9jod7/AABZzysfCdF3yPjQ9D5XOZzia?dl=0
"Faulkner II" array of 47cm/90deg CM3 (wide card) with 67cm/90deg X-Q (omni) > 70D (LOW gain)



They are definitely DIFFERENT for sure, and I DO prefer the VMS preamps most of the time, but $850 for 2 channels of preamps, it BETTER sound better lol ;D I think the VMS + 70d preamps sound VERY similar! As always, YMMV!! They both have fast transients and loads of detail IMO, but for $200 for FOUR channels of preamps, well, its a NO brainer IMO 8) That's why I now have [2] 70d's ;D

That said, I would have NO PROBLEMS running both of my setups into the 70d preamps with another Naiant PFA ;) Noah Bickart runs his 4 channels of Schoeps directly into his 70d as well, and his Phish sources sound GREAT! Like Pohaku said, modern all-in-ones have REALLY come a LONG WAY IMO and running external preamps is more for their "flavor" than actually NEEDING them, at least with the 70d ;) ;D 8) As always, YMMV ;)

Here are some recordings where I ran BOTH setups, so you can judge for yourself if the VMS is "better" than the 70d preamps :) BTW, the caps were exactly 4" apart, as the way they sit on my Vark Bar when running both setups :)

Lotus 12.30.2015 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/lotus2015-12-30.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Lotus 12.30.2015 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/lotus2015-12-30.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

EarPhunk 6.19.2015 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/earphunk2015-06-19.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
EarPhunk 6.19.2015 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/earphunk2015-06-19.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

PPPP 12.18.2015 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/pppp2015-12-18.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
PPPP 12.18.2015 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/pppp2015-12-18.mk4.nbob-kcy.pfa.70d.flac16

Big Something 5.29.2015 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/bigsomething2015-05-29.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Big Something 5.29.2015 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/bigsomething2015-05-29.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

Lotus 9.6.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/lotus2015-09-06.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Lotus 9.6.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/lotus2015-09-06.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

Lotus 9.5.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/lotus2015-09-05.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Lotus 9.5.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/lotus2015-09-05.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

Broccoli Samurai 9.4.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/broccolisamurai2015-09-04.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Broccoli Samurai 9.4.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/broccolisamurai2015-09-04.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

Zoogma 9.6.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/zoogma2015-09-06.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Zoogma 9.6.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/zoogma2015-09-06.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

BoomBox 9.5.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/boombox2015-09-05.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
BoomBox 9.5.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/boombox2015-09-05.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

Phish 8.7.15 Blossom Music Center mk41>VMS>70d
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzaK8joEP_fMWkJ4Mmk3Tmk2WGc&usp=sharing
Phish 8.7.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzaK8joEP_fMdEtJQWN2SlRXcEE&usp=sharing

Phish 8.16.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzaK8joEP_fMaEtZZ29fYXZubTA&usp=sharing
Phish 8.16.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzaK8joEP_fMdjEtOEdwbmpfR0U&usp=sharing

New Deal 9.4.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/tnd2015-09-04.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
New Deal 9.4.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/tnd2015-09-04.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16

Aqueous 6.19.15 mk41>VMS>70d
https://archive.org/details/aqueous2015-06-19.mk41.vms02ib.70d.flac16
Aqueous 6.19.15 mk4>PFA>70d
https://archive.org/details/aqueous2015-06-19.mk4.pfa.70d.flac16
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 03:15:25 PM by F.O.Bean »
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline achabloop5080

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Thank you for your detailed infos and experiences!
I think I'll go with a Tascam Dr-70d for now :-)

 

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