Topic: choosing an ADC

[jeromejello]

i am thinking about getting my own ADC.  i will still hold off on mics for a bit.  i am recording onto a jb3.

i am toying with the Edirol UA5, but i do really really like the portability of the core sounds mic2496. i know its almost the double the price, but i will ideally want to be stealth for most recordings and i can use either for open.

the mics i am toying with (but nothing is certain) are neuman 184s - i think that is what me and my buddy were talking about.  they arent the tiny clip on the glasses type, but i think i could get it camoflauged for some stealth activity (unless i talking about the wrong mics).... however, the DPA mics that coresounds have also might be nice (isnt DPA the old BK?)

basically looking for pros and cons for both these ADC especially relating to jb3 (and the mics are optional)

thanks y'all... going get everything ready for another attempt at taping mmw tonight in st pete!

[charles]

(isnt DPA the old BK?)

yes

UA-5 definitely wouldn't be a good stealth pre/AD.

km184's are very small, but if you plan on only stealthing, you might be better off with the DPA's.

As for the mic2496...if you want to go cheaper there's always the Denecke AD-20.....however, it's only 20/44.1,

mic2496 has optical out so it would be easily compatible with JB3 which has an optical in.

[jaguaracer]

I know a lot of people consider the Deneck PS-2 ->Deneck AD-20 to be a solid stealth set up. ~$400 for both used.
With a battery-powered one: being even better since you could eliminate the ps-2 in that set up. I think some people have modded them themselves too.
They are pricey though.
Also, I'm not sure if the mic2496 can record in 16bit though. I know it has switchable sample rates, but not sure about the word width (bit level). And since most portable recorders cannot take a 24bit word width (except 722/744, laptop pdaaudio), it is definitely something you need to consider.
I dunno though, can someone confirm this: switchable word width on the mic2496??

[charles]

Specs say word width:24 bits and nothing about it being switchable.

[F.O.Bean]

if youre recording into a jb3, id say skip the mic24/96 since its strictly 24 bits

go the ps2/ad20route for stealth and maybe some audio technica cardoids, the small stealth ones(at83x or somethinglikethat)

[Tim]

if youre recording into a jb3, id say skip the mic24/96 since its strictly 24 bits

yep. the ps2/ad20 combo probably is about the same size as the ua5... except the ps2/ad20 can be internally powered and the ua5 must be externally powered but there are pretty small power solutions...

[jaguaracer]

Specs say word width:24 bits and nothing about it being switchable.

thats what I thought (after reading those specs) too. Thanks!

[charles]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14960&item=5761667581&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


Buy it now is about 60-80 less than regular retail and this guy must be pretty solid....269 feedback @100%

Of course, if you're going the used route you should be able to fetch one for 150-200.

And here's a PS-2:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=38158.0;topicseen

[jeromejello]

i see how the mic2496 is only 24bit word width, but the manuf specs mention use with the jb3.  i do like the all in one aspect (pre/adc) and that it is also 'newer' technology - basically capable of doing 24bit/96mHz dvd-a quality (yes i know the jb3 cant handle that, but something else i get down the road may).  it is also smaller.

what is the Deneck PS-2... is it just a power supply... do i need it with the  Deneck AD-20?  most of the ad-20's i have seen just plug a 9v in... is that a mod (i thought that was how they came).  my point is if both of these items do what the mic2496 does - for only 100 more new... it seems the mic2496 is clearly a better choice... now it is just a matter of sound.  i know lots of peeps really like the ua-5 (in fact most of the jb3 rigs i have run into the field use them) with the jb3, but i want something that i can put in a coat pocket if i had to.

thanks for all the tips... and i am watching that auction 

[Brian Skalinder]

but the manuf specs mention use with the jb3.

That's because the manufacturer / retailer conveniently "forgot" to include the very important information we've provided:  that the Mic2496 only outputs 24-bit and the JB3 will truncate the word length to 16-bits.

what is the Deneck PS-2... is it just a power supply...

Typically, a 48v phantom power supply, yes.

do i need it with the Deneck AD-20?

Depends on what mics you're using.  Whatever mics you're running, you'll need a way to power them since the AD-20 - with the exception of a modded unit by SoundPros - does not provide power to the mics.

it seems the mic2496 is clearly a better choice...

Perhaps if you had a 24-bit recorder, but not with a 16-bit recorder IMO.

[jaguaracer]

Perhaps if you had a 24-bit recorder, but not with a 16-bit recorder IMO.

Although, if fed with a 24-bit signal, the JB3 will simply truncate the extra bits. ie it will still allow you to record. (right? thats what it says in the FAQ).
Technically wouldn't it still be a good buy because the mic2496 provides phantom power as well whereas the ad20 doesn't. And the mic2496 is still cheaper than a ps-2->ad20 combo or a modded ad20.

[Brian Skalinder]

Technically wouldn't it still be a good buy because the mic2496 provides phantom power as well whereas the ad20 doesn't. And the mic2496 is still cheaper than a ps-2->ad20 combo or a modded ad20.

Yes, it will still record.  But by truncating the 24- to 16-bit, you're losing 8-bits of detail.  Granted, the least significant 8-bits of the 24-bits, but you're still losing 1/3 of the word-length.  Some people can probably hear the difference, some people probably can't.

Not sure I agree with your comment that the Mic2496 is cheaper, since I easily found these new prices without spending time searching for "best" price:

$189  |  AD-20
$300  |  AD-20
$135  |  PS-2
======================
$324  |  TOTAL
$435  |  TOTAL

$499  |  Mic2496
$ 35  |  XLR or 1/8" breakout cable
======================
$525  |  TOTAL

Not to mention the AD-20 and PS-2 are often available used for less, while the Mic2496 is rarely available used.

[jaguaracer]

Yes, it will still record.  But by truncating the 24- to 16-bit, you're losing 8-bits of detail. 

You are not using the mic2496 to its full capacity, yes. However, 99% of tapes out there are still 16-bit meaning your tapes won't be inferior to nearly all of the tapes currenlty being produced out there. I would even argue that as an investment, the mic2496 might be better. Because, although you aren't using it to its full capacity right now, as time goes on, there will be/may be more methods of 24-bit recording and a steathable 24-bit ad/pre like the 2496 should be in high demand.

Not sure I agree with your comment that the Mic2496 is cheaper, since I easily found these new prices without spending time searching for "best" price:

I just checked SP and one of your noob starter pages. But yes, there seems to be more used PS-2 and AD20 available and one could grab a huge deal there over the mic2496.
Just playing devils advocate because (although I like the look of the ps2/ad20 before) I don't think you've convinced me that, if I were to get some money to expand my rig, to go for ad20/ps2. Just thinking long-term trends/size wise.

[jaguaracer]

However, I admit: the mic2496 seems to have gotten some mixed reviews and does not have the high reputation as the ad20, ps2.
Read here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=31504.msg398527#msg398527
I dunno though ... I would still lean a bit to the mic2496.

[Brian Skalinder]

Hmmmm...perhaps I should check my pricing on the n00b pages, thanks for the heads up.

Ahhh, I get it now - sure, I can understand how from a future planning standpoint the Mic2496 might be a good way to go.  But as 24-bit recorders hit the market (some day!) , I suspect we'll see additional stealthy 24/96 pre/ADC options hit the streets.  They might be better than the Mic2496, they might be worse, who knows.  There's certainly something to be said for it's availability *now*!  Might be a a while - possibly forever - for other units to hit the market.

But, IMO, it's a poor choice to use the Mic2496 if you're going to truncate the word-length, as I'll explain in my disagreement with your statement:

You are not using the mic2496 to its full capacity, yes. However, 99% of tapes out there are still 16-bit meaning your tapes won't be inferior to nearly all of the tapes currenlty being produced out there.

Not true!!  Not all 16-bit sources are created equal.  There's a BIG difference between a native 16-bit source or 24-bit source properly dithered to 16-bits and a 24-bit source truncated to 16-bits.

I just performed a listening test on a 24/44 file.  I converted the file to 16-bit two different ways:  dithered with CEP, and truncated (again with CEP - truncation is truncation, I believe, whether it's performed on the JB3 or in software).  The difference to my ears between the dithered and truncated files was not subtle.  And that's simply playing back over my computer playback system, the differences would be even more stark on a proper playback system.  So, IMO, a 24-bit recording truncated to 16-bits is definitely inferior to a properly dithered or native 16-bit recording.  Which, IMO, should rule out anyone using the Mic2496 with the JB3 or any other 16-bit recording device.

[Brian Skalinder]

Oops, I had my numbers screwed up on the AD-20 price, both in my post and in the n00b post.  Looks like retail's around $300.  I was looking at a (high, at that) price for the PS-2 and mistook it for an AD-20 price.

N00b and previous post corrected.

At any rate, IMO price isn't the issue in this comp given my previous post.   

[bagtagsell]

i am thinking about getting my own ADC.  i will still hold off on mics for a bit.  i am recording onto a jb3.

I would invest in some mics.  You are patching right?  Can you regularly get a digital patch?  Getting an adc won't help you there.  Save some money and buy some mics.  IMO. 

If you are having a problem with an optical patch, buy a hosa box to convert a coax to an optical signal

[jaguaracer]

Not true!!

Thanks for clearing that up! I believe I put them in one of my other posts (or was about to) the question that I wasn't sure if the truncation process eliminate important bits that significantly altered the recording.

[charles]

i am thinking about getting my own ADC. i will still hold off on mics for a bit. i am recording onto a jb3.

I would invest in some mics. You are patching right? Can you regularly get a digital patch? Getting an adc won't help you there. Save some money and buy some mics. IMO.

If you are having a problem with an optical patch, buy a hosa box to convert a coax to an optical signal

Or...here's an idea. Buy some Nak cm100's or cm300's ( $150-300 ), and an AD-20 ( $150-320 ). Start with that combination. That way you can get accustomed to using mics > a/d > jb3. The Naks  run on an internal battery,  so you won't need the PS-2. Then, when you're ready to spend a little more, you can get the Nak's modded ( $150? )...this will make them run on 48VPP and make them small enough to stealth with....and purchase a PS-2. This might be a sensible route to take in your situation.

[thierryhenry]

Coresound Mic2496 has gotten many mixed reviews, I know Steven (sml42 here) despises it, literally hates it. I don't know if it's worth the $500 Core Sound charges. PS-2 > AD-20 is a very combo. Although like someone said, once you put those together it's pratically the size of a UA-5, depending on how STEALTH you go, many people have STEALTHED a UA-5 in a bag before, I think that's my next purchase.

[jeromejello]

ok y'all thanks for the info... but i have now dug up even more questions about adc's:

first of all, i respect the amount of hassle that coresounds has seemed to dish out.  but both the mic2496 and the ad-20 are coresource (or is the ad-20 just sold by them and its really zeph) so i cant really say either sucks in quality without saying both have the potential (esp on the cust service end) to suck.

second, and here is where i am most confused.  i get that the jb3 is 16 bit only.  but it seems every adc is 24 bit (with the exception of ad-20, which is 20bit, and i will address that later) + the 8bit info.  so if both the ua-5 and mic2496 are 24 bit adc, how is it that one is better than the other for the jb3 if there is still going to be a certain amount of truncing?  does the ua-5 dither the 24 bit to 16bit?  i thought the mic 2496 dithered as well if you chose the right switch config - 44.1 and 1x (vs 48 and 2x = 96)  even the ad-20 is going to trunc 4 bits of data (on top of the 4 bits that it already zero'd) to get it into the jb3.  i sorta get where the 16 bit and 20 bit arguement is going on the ad-20 faq, but it seems that its not the complete or whole story.

finally, the modded version of the ad-20 which basically adds the ps-2's function to the ad-20 with the addtion of an extra 9v.  is this doable on my own? with the assistance of someone here?  or do i have to shell out the redonkulous cash to get the modded box.

i am sure i will have more questions, thanks for your help and patience.

[charles]

first of all, i respect the amount of hassle that coresounds has seemed to dish out.  but both the mic2496 and the ad-20 are coresource (or is the ad-20 just sold by them and its really zeph) so i cant really say either sucks in quality without saying both have the potential (esp on the cust service end) to suck.

They are not made by the same people.

[charles]

but it seems every adc is 24 bit (with the exception of ad-20, which is 20bit,

Not neccesarily true. The issue here is that the word width (bit) for the core 2496 is not adjustable. With a unit like the ua-5 or the v3, your word width can be slelected up to 24 bit.  The AD-20 is only 20 bit. The core2496 is only 24 bit. In other words, if you run a ua-5 into a jb3, and you run the ua-5 at 16 bit, nothing will be truncated. Starting to make sense?

[jeromejello]

but it seems every adc is 24 bit (with the exception of ad-20, which is 20bit,

Not neccesarily true. The issue here is that the word width (bit) for the core 2496 is not adjustable. With a unit like the ua-5 or the v3, your word width can be slelected up to 24 bit.  The AD-20 is only 20 bit. The core2496 is only 24 bit. In other words, if you run a ua-5 into a jb3, and you run the ua-5 at 16 bit, nothing will be truncated. Starting to make sense?

starting    i was reading more about the ad-20... and due to the s/n ratio of the ad chip it gives 16.5 bits of data which is why apparently it is a good match for 16 recorders like the jb3. 

from an info file:

The digital output on the AD-20 is a 20 bit 44.1 kHz S/PDIF signal.  Because the dynamic range of the AD-20's A/D is about 103dB A-weighted or 98dB unweighted this equates to about 16.5 bits of resolution before the natural noise of the A/D can be heard.  Because the natural noise floor of the system hangs right on the 17th bit, the AD-20 also works great as a 16 bit recording device without the need for additional dither (noise) to be added to the signal.  You might say the AD-20 has its own natural dither.  Had the S/N of the AD-20 been beyond the 17 bits then additional dither noise would need to be added at the 17th bit to avoid excessive quantization noise. 

i am intrigued to see how much of the mic2496 is actually available... i assume around 21.5 which would be less of a clip then first appears.