Topic: I've realized why on-stage and stage-lip taping is so great>

[grider]

I've been transferring some of my recent on-stage recordings lately, and listening to them critically, specifically listening for good sound qualities like balance and stereo separation, but also listening for undesireable sound qualities like echo, lack of balance, chatter, and anomolies like the random kick to the stand or whatever, and what I have realized more than anything else is that taping from the stage itself makes my recordings consistently better each time than any other variable I can control; its simple to do, a safe place to place the mics and stand, it eliminates most background noise and chatter when using cards (hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself), it provides a very clear stereo separation, and it eliminates odd room acoustics that can just ruin an otherwise good recording; case in point:  the Subterranean in Chicago, which is a terrible room to tape in, and I taped the same band there twice now with stunningly different results, and this room is very long and narrow and high (two stories) with wood panneling throughout, in other words its an echo chamber; last 10/04 I taped from behind the soundboard about halfway back from the stage, running 483>V3>DAP1 and using DIN, result:  hollow, echoey, basically unlistenable recording, due the sound just bouncing all around the room; second time I ran on-stage, again DIN, using 481>UA5>DAP1, about 24 inches off the floor, and its a superior recording, no echo, no boom, minimal chatter, crisp cymbals and punchy drums on the right, pronounced bass just a little to the left, lead guitar to the left of that, and bongos and fingerpad on the far left, lead guitar in the middle, its all perfectly identifiable based on the location of the amps on stage, and the sound I captured was not the house PA but instead the sound produced by each band members' own hand-selected amps; I have concluded that in any setting other than a really large room or venue, setting up and recording as close to the source as possible is the only way to go, oh and no stand or rig to protect at the expense of enjoying the show anymore either

[mmmatt]

(hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself),

Don't hypers reject more rear sound than cards?  Maybe I'm confused!  Anyway, I agree with you Chris... stage is the shit with amplified, nonvocal bands.  I did get burned once though going low to the floor... about 8 or 10 inches from the floor for the bad plus.  The sound from the grand piano was really weak.  If I would have been up at the level of the piano's lid it would have been much better.  I tried but FOH shut me down... In that case (a nice room anyways) I should have gone fob.  I do love stage though.

Matt

[ethan]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

[grider]

(hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself),

Don't hypers reject more rear sound than cards?

other way around as I understand it, Matt, the hypercardiods have a rear lobe pick-up pattern that the cardiods do not, which is why I ran cardiods instead, with excellent results, I think hypers would be disastrous so close to people being directly behind them; the only pitfalls I have identified would be placing the mics too close to the source so that they are hovering above the band's own monitors facing them with the sound from those mics bleeding into the recording or causing phase issues, or not picking up much or any sound from the instruments mic'd only through the house PA, or simply not having a stage big enough to accomodate the band and their equipment and a mic stand, that's about it from what I have seen in my novice taper's eyes; a very cool device I bought just two weeks ago when I saw another taper using it for a tiny on-stage rig is this kick-drum mic stand, rather than retractable feet they are these three fat and heavy iron feet, in a fixed position sitting flush on the floor, then a fixed vertical pole sticking out of it, with a smaller parallel pole that canbe raised or lowered at the end of which is a 3/8 inch threading, its so low profile it can fit virtually anywhere and it can be raised to about 5 feet or so when fully extended, and it was only 35 dollars at Sam Ash, makes this type of intrusive taping much more pallatable for bands to put up with and agree to

[grider]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

[Chuck]

I also have an Atlas kick drum stand I kept after my sound reinforcement company was closed. I think it's the best on stage stand too. The little extension arm lets me position the mics anywhere from about 1" to 4' up.

[bluegrass_brad]

Hypers have that nasty lobe directly behind that cards lack.  They will pick up shit directly behind them like crazy.  Thats the bitch about using some of the hyper card vocal mics with bands that have onstage monitors.  If they like the monitor on the floor directly behind the mic, and have the mic angled too much (cap towards mouth, end towards floor, usually pointing directly at the damn monitor) it is a bitch to turn up without feedback.

[ethan]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

Well as soon as you tape someone with vocal on-stage you won't like the results as much I guarentee it.

[Chanher]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

Well as soon as you tape someone with vocal on-stage you won't like the results as much I guarentee it.

yeah that's the big problem. I've heard recomendations that if you can get your mics relatively close to the monitors that you can make up some of that vocal loss. I've tried it three times with mixed results; one time it was pretty sweet, but I think that's because the stage set-up was pretty simple and well done.  the others were so-so; they did kinda fill the vocals but the other instruments from the monitor mix sounded funny. not bad, but not up to par with the usual on-stage mix.

My FAVORITE technique in the world is on-stage mics + sbd matrix.  There's no delay issues and the sbd fills the vocals oh-so nice. [drool]

[svenkid]

conversely, I run my hypers onstage, and the rear lobe thingee pics up the vocals 

there is a venue here that is the WORST. the only way I can tape is onstage. Ive pulled it just fine 4-5 times.
seperation of sound, its great. 

[mmmatt]

Hypers have that nasty lobe directly behind that cards lack.  They will pick up shit directly behind them like crazy.  Thats the bitch about using some of the hyper card vocal mics with bands that have onstage monitors.  If they like the monitor on the floor directly behind the mic, and have the mic angled too much (cap towards mouth, end towards floor, usually pointing directly at the damn monitor) it is a bitch to turn up without feedback.

Having never owned hypers I did not know this!

My FAVORITE technique in the world is on-stage mics + sbd matrix.  There's no delay issues and the sbd fills the vocals oh-so nice. [drool]

I agree here for sure... Great technique with the right band/venue.  Keep in mind it only works if there is on stage amplification.

Matt

[Evil Taper]

i ran omnis at about stage lip for Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and it's definately one of my favorite recordings.  i got unmic'd cowbell and great horn sound that wouldn't have shown up FOB.  the vocals are perfect in the mix but there was an entire slew of shorty vocal amps on the actual front flip of the stage.  so even at an amphitheater you can swing it with the right band (but the upright bass is low since the subs are hanging).

[cgrooves]

Evil Taper,

What configuration did you run the Omnis in?

I ran my omnis at stage lip using the Healy method once (actually split the caps wider than Healy method).  Turned out ok, but next time I am going to try something different.

[mmmatt]

split em 6-8' and you are golden... most forgiving stage config you can do IMHO.  Just don't be too concerned with dead center but more concerned with where the sound is coming from.  ie.. don't stick one right in front of any loud indtrument.

Matt

[F.O.Bean]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

Well as soon as you tape someone with vocal on-stage you won't like the results as much I guarentee it.

yeah that's the big problem. I've heard recomendations that if you can get your mics relatively close to the monitors that you can make up some of that vocal loss. I've tried it three times with mixed results; one time it was pretty sweet, but I think that's because the stage set-up was pretty simple and well done.  the others were so-so; they did kinda fill the vocals but the other instruments from the monitor mix sounded funny. not bad, but not up to par with the usual on-stage mix.

My FAVORITE technique in the world is on-stage mics + sbd matrix.  There's no delay issues and the sbd fills the vocals oh-so nice. [drool]

agreed, i do the onstage+sbd mix sometimes on some smaller bands i know, always a fun mix for sure, and usually the ONLY way to get a decent tape out of a shitty club/venue