Author Topic: Anyone ever use the Schoeps sub-card caps?? (Read 9260 times)

Charlie Miller · « **on:** July 18, 2006, 10:17:51 PM »

I have a pair of cmc6/mk4's and was thinking of getting some other caps. Does anyone have any input on the schoeps sub-card caps? Or are there any other brands of sub-cards you would reccomend??

cm

Nate · « **Reply #1 on:** July 18, 2006, 11:03:51 PM »

I've used the 21 caps many times and have been very happy. It also compliments the 4 cap well, cause you can go on stage or up close with a 21....then use the 4 cap as you go farther back from the source.

todd e · « **Reply #2 on:** July 18, 2006, 11:25:23 PM »

have the 21s and the 41s, with an 8 for shits and giggles.

serious, i love the flexibility the 21s allow for : on-stage, or way up front.
match that with another 2ch (i.e. midside) you have a classic mix.

Charlie Miller · « **Reply #3 on:** July 18, 2006, 11:44:37 PM »

I would be using the 21's on-stage to add to the multitrack mixes. I was wondering if they would be too boomy or low-end heavy when added to the mix?

Maybe somebody will be at a show I am working and will have some 21's we can play with

I'd actually like to run them on stage next to my mk4's for comparison...

cm

mmedley. · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:18:18 AM »

Well you get the best of both worlds with the 21's...I think Schoeps sums it up nicely....

"The basic idea in designing this capsule was to combine the advantages of the cardioid with those of the omni. This results in a pickup pattern which blends the two sets of characteristics in a useful manner. It has fuller and more extended low-frequency response than a cardioid, with less proximity effect, while attenuating side- and rear-incident sound less than a cardioid."

Brian Skalinder · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:34:05 AM »

Love my MK21s! If you're ever in Chicago, we'll arrange to meet up so you can run 'em. I like the MK21s on stage a lot.

Gordon · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:49:47 AM »

the 21's NOS are the only schoeps I like

Charlie Miller · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:54:42 AM »

While taping SKB in Chicago (2002 - back when we still allowed folks to run on stage), I let someone clamp onto my stand. He had 21's and I had 4's. At set break, we switched caps so we can hear the difference. I have no idea what I did with the recordings. I probably deleted the stage recordings since I also ran a sbd/mk4 matrix recording...not my smartest move....cm

Gordon · « **Reply #8 on:** July 19, 2006, 02:31:44 AM »

not the best example but not bad

http://www.archive.org/details/smt2006-03-24.flac16

Stanton Moore Trio
03/24/06
Stella Blue
Asheville, NC

source: schoeps cmc6xt/mk21 (NOS) > Lunatec V3 @ 44.1khz > Nomad Jukebox 3
location: fob,dfc hung from the ceiling in the sweet spot
transfer: JB3 > firewire > nomad explorer > wavelab 5.01b > cd wave > flac level 6

taped by Gordon Wilson, William Boswell, Joe Waldron, & Jim Pollock
transferred by Gordon Wilson

Stanton-drums
Will Bernard-guitar
Dr. Lonnie Smith-organ

JasonSobel · « **Reply #9 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:17:15 AM »

Quote from: Charlie Miller on July 18, 2006, 11:44:37 PM

I would be using the 21's on-stage to add to the multitrack mixes.

if you want to hear some onstage mk21's, check out a few of Scott's Club d'Elf recordings...
http://www.archive.org/details/delf2006-03-29.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/delf2005-08-10.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/clubdelf2005-10-27.mk21.v3.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/delf2005-09-08.flac16

those are just a few, there are plenty more.
and as others have stated, the schoeps sub-cards are great. go for it!

CQBert · « **Reply #10 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:52:50 AM »

I have run a 21H as part of a M/S Rig and absolutely love it.

CQBert

Kevin Straker · « **Reply #11 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:15:28 AM »

I think the 21 is probably the best sounding cap that schoeps makes. It's good close up in something like 110 xy, and also damn good for outdoor work from the sweet spot NOS.

scb · « **Reply #12 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:39:44 AM »

charlie, check these out. these were all kimock onstage recordings with mk21s.

http://www.archive.org/details/skb2001-04-29.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2001-04-27.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/skb2001-04-28-mk21.shnf

are mk21s heavier in the low end than the 4s? yes, but i doubt it'd be boomy at all, since they'd be onstage. it's not like you'd be picking up more boom from the room or anything. i think you might find them to have a more natural-sounding image and probably just some more punch.

i own the dpa cards and subcards and i absolutely love the subcards. the wider pickup can make it sound much more natural...kind of like having the open sound of an omni with the clarity and punch of a cardioid

i'd lend you the dpas for a show or 2, but i know that's no help since you're looking for the schoeps. i'm sure someone here can help you out at a show sometime soon.

(but if you do want to borrow/hear the dpas, let me know)

scb · « **Reply #13 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:50:53 AM »

also, did i read correctly somewhere that MMW's "Tonic" album was made with just a pair of mk21s on stage?

Charlie Miller · « **Reply #14 on:** July 19, 2006, 03:33:49 PM »

I actually have the skb mk21 discs from chicago. I think I'll play them today.

+t to all for your input....

thanks folks...cm

eric.B · « **Reply #15 on:** July 19, 2006, 05:25:10 PM »

yeah the 21's are great if you like metallic mids and highs..

RebelRebel · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2006, 06:54:45 PM »

I use the 21Hs a lot, really like them.

mmedley. · « **Reply #17 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:14:19 AM »

Here is a good loud Rock show where there 21's shine if you are bittorrent capable...

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=27189&edited=1

kennedy · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:21:14 AM »

Quote from: scott brown on July 19, 2006, 08:50:53 AM

also, did i read correctly somewhere that MMW's "Tonic" album was made with just a pair of mk21s on stage?

mmw's archivist Bill Mulvey runs mk21s onstage, so that is quite possible

Charlie Miller · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:13:44 AM »

Quote from: kennedy on July 20, 2006, 01:21:14 AM

Quote from: scott brown on July 19, 2006, 08:50:53 AM
also, did i read correctly somewhere that MMW's "Tonic" album was made with just a pair of mk21s on stage?

mmw's archivist Bill Mulvey runs mk21s onstage, so that is quite possible

Does anyone know how to contact Bill Mulvey? We let him put his mk21's on stage at the 8/11/02 skb show. I would love to hear how his mk21's sounded at that show since his stand was right next to mine......cm

scb · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2006, 08:10:10 AM »

i'll pm you his email address

grider · « **Reply #21 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:11:11 PM »

Charlie fwiw the band Soulive runs them for their on-stage recordings, if that's any indication of their application

Charlie Miller · « **Reply #22 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:21:02 PM »

Thanks. This place really is great.

BTW, Scott Brown, haven't seen you in quite a while. How ya been??

cm

Kevin Straker · « **Reply #23 on:** July 20, 2006, 04:12:52 PM »

Quote from: grider on July 20, 2006, 02:11:11 PM

Charlie fwiw the band Soulive runs them for their on-stage recordings, if that's any indication of their application

nudge nudge, say no more......

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #24 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:23:32 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Straker on July 20, 2006, 04:12:52 PM

Quote from: grider on July 20, 2006, 02:11:11 PM
Charlie fwiw the band Soulive runs them for their on-stage recordings, if that's any indication of their application
nudge nudge, say no more......

i think the mk21's would REALLY shine onstage,. ive heard some of scott gordons run onstage and FOB and some of jon merin's as well, and i think that cap is pretty hard to beat in the right spot w/ minimal chatter

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2006, 07:28:56 AM »

it is a killer sounding capsule, indeed.

i haven't heard many sub card recordings from any mic that was bad. but honestly, i would not use them w/the ORTF holder that you typicaly run. XY baby!!
coincident is where its at.

Charles...
fwiw, see if you can get your hands on some Peluso sub cards. I think you'll like what you hear and what they cost.

RebelRebel · « **Reply #26 on:** July 21, 2006, 09:57:03 AM »

why would you throw an essentially non-directional mic up in a configuration that depends on the level/intensity differences of directional mics?? Youd essentially be stuck with a mono recording..

Quote from: Nick's Picks on July 21, 2006, 07:28:56 AM

it is a killer sounding capsule, indeed.

i haven't heard many sub card recordings from any mic that was bad. but honestly, i would not use them w/the ORTF holder that you typicaly run. XY baby!!
coincident is where its at.

Charles...
fwiw, see if you can get your hands on some Peluso sub cards. I think you'll like what you hear and what they cost.

scb · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2006, 10:12:06 AM »

http://www.archive.org/download/ch2006-02-17.dpa4026.shnf/ch2006-02-17d2/ch2006-02-17d2t05_vbr.mp3

that's an onstage xy subcard(dpa 4026) tape. definitely not mono

RebelRebel · « **Reply #28 on:** July 21, 2006, 10:37:08 AM »

Quote from: scott brown on July 21, 2006, 10:12:06 AM

http://www.archive.org/download/ch2006-02-17.dpa4026.shnf/ch2006-02-17d2/ch2006-02-17d2t05_vbr.mp3

that's an onstage xy subcard(dpa 4026) tape. definitely not mono

I guess that is the exception, rather than the rule, from what I have discovered (and heard). I have mk21s, and have had dreadful results running them coincident...In order to get the soundstage to an appropriate width, I have found it necessary to get some space in there..there are no absolutes though, no argument from me on that..

stirinthesauce · « **Reply #29 on:** July 21, 2006, 10:53:11 AM »

Yeah Teddy, my thoughts were the same as I had just gotten some subcards and ran them onstage last weekend. On Nicks recommedation I ran them xy onstage. Surprisingly, I did get seperation. Completely not what I was expecting.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #30 on:** July 21, 2006, 11:26:52 AM »

i ran my subs XY all the time.
same for the c422 and carls c34.

mono, it aint. i can tell you that from my personal experience (whatever that is worth).

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #31 on:** July 21, 2006, 11:31:39 AM »

another way I like them is a short A-B setup, about a foot to 18" or so.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #32 on:** July 21, 2006, 12:19:10 PM »

AKG c34 sub-cards at 90deg
http://www.nickspicks.com/images/video/phil/ESSEX/ruben&cherise.mp3

SonicSound · « **Reply #33 on:** July 21, 2006, 04:22:15 PM »

M222

Quote from: the Chief on July 19, 2006, 05:25:10 PM

yeah the 21's are great if you like metallic mids and highs..

eric.B · « **Reply #34 on:** July 21, 2006, 07:51:30 PM »

Quote from: SonicSound on July 21, 2006, 04:22:15 PM

M222
Quote from: the Chief on July 19, 2006, 05:25:10 PM
yeah the 21's are great if you like metallic mids and highs..

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #35 on:** July 21, 2006, 10:29:11 PM »

can you roll the tubes in those m222 bodies?

SonicSound · « **Reply #36 on:** July 22, 2006, 06:31:30 AM »

M222 are the tubes

Quote from: Nick's Picks on July 21, 2006, 10:29:11 PM

can you roll the tubes in those m222 bodies?

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #37 on:** July 22, 2006, 07:21:00 AM »

i thought the m222 was a tubed preamp assembly (mic body) that took the mkxx caps?
guess not.

SonicSound · « **Reply #38 on:** July 23, 2006, 06:59:50 AM »

The M222 is the tube microphone amplifier and the NT222 is the powering unit.

Quote from: Nick's Picks on July 22, 2006, 07:21:00 AM

i thought the m222 was a tubed preamp assembly (mic body) that took the mkxx caps?
guess not.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #39 on:** July 23, 2006, 07:52:26 AM »

ok, well then can you take the tube out of the m222 and replace it w/something else?
that was the original question.

SonicSound · « **Reply #40 on:** July 23, 2006, 09:48:56 AM »

Sorry - not thinking clearly just landed in Suzhou China

I am not sure about re-tubing the M222.

Quote from: Nick's Picks on July 23, 2006, 07:52:26 AM

ok, well then can you take the tube out of the m222 and replace it w/something else?
that was the original question.

RebelRebel · « **Reply #41 on:** July 24, 2006, 08:02:33 AM »

I am glad Nick and others have had good luck with Coincident configs with the subcards. By default, they just do not produce a large stereo image. Maybe with a smaller ensemble it isnt a big deal, but with larger ensembles such as orchestra or brass band, the main disadvantages(the recording only of loudness differences) of coincident are very noticeable. Time arrival cues are missing, and, because of that, the stereo spread suffers greatly.

it-goes-to-eleven · « **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2006, 10:23:25 AM »

I like the 21's a lot on stage and close to the stage.. Initially I thought I might get by with mk21 and mk41's but I found many situations where I really needed the mk4's.

I have not tried coincident with my mk21's. Mainly NOS. I have to echo Teddy's concerns about soundstage width and separation if running x-y. I really need to get some windchimes in my basement to measure sound stage accuracy with different configs..

For a while I ran them in a slightly closer than normal spaced DINA until I picked up the mk4's. In that 'special application' tight config I found the mk4's produced a better defined sound stage. I really do want to revisit the performance of the mk21 in that config.

I have started running schoeps actives > rmod > r09 as a sometimes second rig.. It is nice for experimenting without hauling a whole second rig. It also lets me run cards as a backup in case the crowd doesn't cooperate, etc..

As for boom.. I think at some venues you'll get some mud even on stage/lip. Whether from monitor bleed, stage wall reflections or monster sub cabinets (I was setup between 8 of them on friday.. useless as they just muddied George Porter's bass amp).

Author Topic: Anyone ever use the Schoeps sub-card caps?? (Read 9260 times)

RebelRebel

RebelRebel

RebelRebel

stirinthesauce

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