Topic: 4-ch mic configs - what do you use?

[Brian Skalinder]

In response to a discussion in another thread, starting here, I wanted to ask others what 4-mic configs they're using?

I've not yet used my R-4 for 2-ch AUD + 2-ch SBD (or 3 + 1) , so have stuck mostly with 4-ch mic configs.  And even those, I've only run a handful of times due to a serious taping slump.  Anyway, I've basically tried three options so far:

• Close-micing.  Close-mic'd the 4 performers or their amps (only Goran Ivanovic Group so far).  Love the sound from micing the sax directly.  Likewise for the drum kit, but even though it's a fairly minimal kit, I've found it difficult to pick up enough of the kick drum yet still remain far enough overhead to get good decay out of the cymbals and high-hat (that settles it, I obviously need 8-ch!).  Love the control over discrete instruments when mixing.  However, while it sounds alright, I'm not thrilled with the results micing the bass and guitar amps.  May try a 4-ch feed from the SBD next time, or mic the sax / drums on-stage and feed the guitar / bass via SBD.  Not sure I can get a decent sound by micing the guitar / bass directly - I could probably mount a mic in front of Goran's guitar easily enough (not quite sure on placement), but I'm pretty sure I can't mount one of my 414s to Matt's bass!
  
  
• Near-coincident flanked by split omnis.  So far, mostly DIN/DINA cardioid or hypercardioid pair flanked by omnis split ~14".  I now have the capability to split easily up to ~24".  Interesting results - definitely like the option to tweak the depth/width of the image by mixing the two sources, but the results have sounded somewhat smeared.  I don't know the proper term, but I hear a distinct lack of center focus - probably due in part to the venue in which I've run this config (Metro in Chicago, the soundboard and under-balcony area is a trap and causes more open configs to come out a little muddy, and the stacks are spread w-i-d-e).
  
  
• Coincident flanked by split omnis.  Just ran this the first time for Tortoise recently (see Kickdown for BT/FTP).  Early set ran XY90º for the main pair, and omnis split ~24".  Late set ran XY110º main pair, same omni split.  I liked both results, and both produced a more focused center than previous attempts.  Though to be honest, I've always experienced good results at the Empty Bottle.  One thing I love about adding the omnis to the mix, aside from the more open and natural sound in general, is the robust bass I get out of the 414s.  Some people feel I keep too much bass in my recordings (ahem, mmmatt...though I suspect you're not alone), but I love it on my playback system.
  
  

What are others' experiences?  Ultimately, I'll play around more with the above options (assuming I don't revert back to a work-induced taping slump for another few months), but also plan to run SBD + an on-stage pair, SBD + ambient pair, and on occasion on-stage main pair + spot mics.  So far I've really enjoyed the flexibility 4-ch allows, though I still need to figure out what configs work best in which environments, etc.  Of course, for me, anyway, trying out new stuff is half the fun!

[stirinthesauce]

Well, I'm not using an r-4, but I use my w+mod ua-5 for 4 mic mixes as much as possible.  Not sure off hand the exact number of times I have run this but I will list my configs and type of enviroment for the last 5 times.

1.  WSP in Memphis this summer, 2nd night (7/29 I believe).  Ran a flanking (split 15' pointing at the outside of the stacks) of my Peluso subcards straight into the ua-5.  I had a center pair of 414's, DINa hypers >v2>rca input.  Of course all of my 4 mic mixes have to be done on the fly so it is a little iffier results than if I could mix in post.  My thoughts on the results.  Loved it.  The hypers brought a more in your face sound but the subcards really opened things up.  Was very impresse with the results.  This was from the OTS.

2.  7/21/06 - South Cumberland Orchestra.  This was a student orchestra put on by the Sewanee summer music festival.  Top student musicians from all over the country.  I was setup maybe 15' back from the orchestra.  Very large ensemble with 70+musicians.  Had alot of space to cover.  I ran a center pair of akg 481's DIN with a flanking pair of Peluso subcards split 45' angled in 45* towards the orchestra.  akg's ran into the ua-5 and the Peluso's into a v3.  Mixed on the fly.  Results were spectacular.  Huge soundstage, stereo imaging is incredible.  Very impressed.  Probably one of my better if not best recording (to my ears) and my first attempt at 4 mics.  Of course taping orchestra's are so much fun because of the wide dynamic range.  This will have to be done again and will keep the flanking configs but may change up the center pair by using omnis baffled.

3.  My sister's wedding reception, Labor Day weekend 2006 -  We hired a bluegrass band to play all acoustic.  It was outside on the front porch.  I ran avenso sto-2's pointed at the outside of the group>ua-5 and AT 831's>bbox>line in (DIN).  This turned out fantastic.  It was a real quiet performanc since there was no amplification.  I was set up 5' in front of them but still had my omnis much higher in the mix.  It sounds wonderful.  It will be a great gift to give my sister and new brother in law.  Great stereo seperation even with the omnis.

4. NMAS a couple weeks back outdoors.  I knew this would be thumping bass heavy situation and wanted to really capture the experience.  I ran avenson audio sto-2's healy method>oade m-148 and Peluso cards DIN>ua-5.  Very loud show and couldn't get the mix the way I wanted it.  The 20db fixed gain was too much from the brick, I wanted the omnis lower in the mix but ended up with the omnis higher in the mix.  The results are mixed.  Great on home playback, waaaay to much bass for a car stereo.  Not so much just boom as the highs and mids are very present, just that the omnis really picked up Chew's bass.  Of course it was extremely bass heavy there so I account this to an accurate representation of the night.  Next time I will keep omnis lower in the mix for a more pleasing playback.

5.  WSP 2 nights ago.  Split subcards (8' split)>ua-5 and mk4v's(ortf)>722>lineout>ua-5.  I set the subcards just a tad lower in the mix.  Results were fantastic.  Torrent is up on etree if anyone wants to hear it.  The mk4v's by itself will be posted tomorrow so to hear the differences between 2 and 4 mics.

Having to mix on the fly can be a bit difficult but so far most of my outings have yielded results surpassing my expectations.  I like the idea of flanking mics.  Omnis I will use more outdoors and the subcards more indoors (to block some of the rear bounce back) and hypers if I am far away from the source or cards if I am closer for the center pair. 

Great topic, thanks for starting it Brian.

[Brian Skalinder]

Thanks for the input, stir.  Downloading a track or two from your WSP recording, as well as phishy12's C34 + Schoeps MK21 mix.  While I love the 414's LD sound (meaty and robust), pretty sure I'd like to have the option of another pair of SDs.  I didn't realize the Peluso's offered a variety of caps - and reasonably priced, taboot!  I may have to pick up a set of CEMC6 bodies and omni and subcard caps once finances allow.     If only they had figure-8 caps.

Based on your comments, I think I'll try split subcards at the Metro next time to see if the bit more rear rejection reduces the mud sufficiently.  Someone in the other thread also mentioned running the center pair real tight, like ~70º, and I think I'll give that a go, too.

[bgalizio]

I didn't realize the Peluso's offered a variety of caps - and reasonably priced, taboot!  I may have to pick up a set of CEMC6 bodies and omni and subcard caps once finances allow.     If only they had figure-8 caps.

DO IT! I love the Peluso subcard sound. I remember Nick's Picks saying that Peluso was developing a fig-8 cap...

EDIT: I find this topic very interesting. My 4 channel experience with the R-4 is limited to SBD/AUD and will probably stay that way for a long while, as the new house effectively killed all gear funds. Maybe I'll pick up those Naiant Studio's $50 omnis 

[Brian Skalinder]

DO IT! I love the Peluso subcard sound. I remember Nick's Picks saying that Peluso was developing a fig-8 cap...

That would seal the deal and I'd just have to finagle the finances.

Maybe I'll pick up those Naiant Studio's $50 omnis 

Do it!  Even if they're not top-notch quality, you can still use them for reinforcement and helping control the openness of the imaging.

[kirk97132]

Here's a set up we used that turned out great.  I know the Electro voices are an odd choice but they worked well with the AGK's. 

Jerry Joseph & The Jackmormons
7-26-03
Mt Tabor
Portland, OR

Source: (all mics on stage)
2 EV-ND408's(10'spread) &
2 AKGb 480B-ULS (with
ck61 [cardiod] caps) @ center & SBD>
Behringer UB2222FX-Pro mixer>
Lunatec V3>VX Pocket V2>
Toshiba 3490ct laptop

http://db.etree.org/shninfo_detail.php?shnid=22698

[stirinthesauce]

Thanks for the input, stir.  Downloading a track or two from your WSP recording, as well as phishy12's C34 + Schoeps MK21 mix.  While I love the 414's LD sound (meaty and robust), pretty sure I'd like to have the option of another pair of SDs.  I didn't realize the Peluso's offered a variety of caps - and reasonably priced, taboot!  I may have to pick up a set of CEMC6 bodies and omni and subcard caps once finances allow.     If only they had figure-8 caps.

Based on your comments, I think I'll try split subcards at the Metro next time to see if the bit more rear rejection reduces the mud sufficiently.  Someone in the other thread also mentioned running the center pair real tight, like ~70º, and I think I'll give that a go, too.

Yeah, the split subcards work great.  The DDBB opening set I ran just split subcards, no center fill.  Turned out nice.  Very open with some pleasing reverb but not muddy at all.  Just posted it up on etree, http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=500708  so this will give you an idea of the difference adding the center fill stereo pair.  Thanks for the tips on running a tighter center pair, I may try that next time or an xy coincident.

The Peluso's are great.  Give me plenty of options without breaking the bank.  They sound wonderful too.  Subcards are very warm but still have the small diaphragm detail.  I believe extra caps are around $180 for a matched pair depending on dealer.

[ethan]

Although I don't own an R4 I have been messing with 4-6 mic live two track mixdowns with my Soundcraft Notepad.

My general approach with 4 mics is to first evaluate all the sound sources on stage. All amplified? Are there wedges? If so are there multiple monitor mixes. Is there anything I think will be way too loud or way too quiet?

First if there are vocals and monitors I mic a monitor and pan it to both channels. I like to at least do one stereo config usually a stage lip NOS config. However depending on monitor placement and stage layout I'll move the stereo config to a location I think I'll get balanced channels and maximize onaxis looks at non mic'ed amplified sources (guitar,bass, drums). Then I'll use the rest of my mics to augment which sources I think need it.

-e

[OFOTD]

Coming from the original thread that spawned this one.   I made reference to the proliferation of four mic mixes on the popular torrent sites.  To me it has generally seemed that those folks have just thrown up two sets of random mics.   While I know a great deal of this is based on what mics you have on hand it seems like more often than not these random mic combinations sound really bad together.   

I like Brian's idea in the first post about tempering odd parings with different patterns. 

I would suspect that as 4 mic mixes start becoming more and more regular that time and testing will be spent on different mic combinations.  Like do the 414's  sound best with the 480's or do the 414's sound best with the mk4's?   

As Brian talks about the mic configs I wonder how much that plays into the mix as opposed to exactly which mics are used?  Which has the greater effect, mic configs or mic parings?

Looking forward to this discussion.  +T    Brian for starting this thread.

[kirk97132]

here's a new seed of the 4 mic show: http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27194

[RebelRebel]

I always run either 1.)blumlein with omni flanks 2.)jecklin disc with cardiod flanks 3.) ortf with omni flanks or 4.)faulkner phased array with cardiod flanks.

even though I do mainly acoustic material, I have a feeling that it would work equally well with a taping enviroment(id think with cardiod flanks more than omnis). I get about 75% of the sound from the main mics, and mix in the flanks so that I barely notice when they are gone. in a good room, I will also use 3 omnis across the front of the group...this works very well too..(sort of a decca tree, but all the mics are in the same plane instead of forming a triangle) panned hard L C R

[wbrisette]

As a old veteran of 4 channel mixes, what I've been using successfully for a long time is using two omnis spread 1 metre apart, with a pair of cards in the ORTF position in the middle of those.

Wayne

[Shawn]

I've heard some really great tapes made by placing two mics on-stage. usually it's cards in ORTF/DIN/XY or sometimes a PZM mic. The other two other mics are split and placed very close (less than 5 ft) to each PA stack. This is good for small rooms. It has a nice in your face sound. It sounds more like a SBD than an typical AUD, but you get a couple of advantages over a straight SBD recording. First, you still get a little of the room sound (read natural reverb), and second you pick up the sound coming from the stage. It's best if you can mix the signals in post, but I've heard amazing results done 'on the fly' by experienced people. If I ever get some $ and pick up another set of mics I plan on trying it. here are a couple of samples for anyone interested...


http://www.archive.org/details/tlg2005-12-30.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/tlg2005-12-15.onstage.flac16

[wbrisette]

This is cheating a bit because this is a six mic mix, but...

http://www.archive.org/details/TLG2006-04-29

Wayne

[easy jim]

I've only tried four mics a couple different ways in the following configs:

On stage: split pair + center pair  The split pair has generally been cardioid, but I have also used the omni and wide-cardioid patterns with the 414s.  The center pair has always been the SD AKGs being run in a DINish type config.  These have all worked out really well, filling in those parts of the stage sound generally missed by either a center or split pair run alone, but they have also always been done in conjunction with a SBD feed to get what's not in the stage mix (i.e., vox).

Mid-Side LD center pair + flanking SD cards near coincident (DINish)  I tried this once for the hell of it because I wanted to try mid-side out for the first time when I received my 414s.  I really only ran the SDs as a back up in case I screwed up the Mid-Side pair.  In the end, I mixed them in post and it turned out great.  Link attached.

http://www.archive.org/details/xr2006-08-02.akg414-451matrix.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/xr2006-08-02.akg414-451matrix.flac24

Stage pair plus PA pair (+ SBD)  This is my favorite way to run now, and what I try to do, if possible, for shows in which I have the necessary access.  I do not worry too much about the PA pair, which I just set up by the SBD which is where I run my rig, since I only use the PA pair to add room sound and as a cut-away source if there are issues with the SBD and/or stage feed.