Topic: 4-ch mic configs - what do you use?

[Gutbucket]

I always run either 1.)blumlein with omni flanks 2.)jecklin disc with cardiod flanks 3.) ortf with omni flanks or 4.)faulkner phased array with cardiod flanks.
...

Has anyone tried splitting the pairs among different freq. ranges?  I've wondered about Blumlein & omni flanks with a lowpass on the omnis, either with a corresponding highpass on the center pair or just allowing for the natural low end rolloff of the fig-8's.  Same could be applied to other configs of course, but that one in particular intrigues me.

[RebelRebel]

I always run either 1.)blumlein with omni flanks 2.)jecklin disc with cardiod flanks 3.) ortf with omni flanks or 4.)faulkner phased array with cardiod flanks.
...

Has anyone tried splitting the pairs among different freq. ranges?  I've wondered about Blumlein & omni flanks with a lowpass on the omnis, either with a corresponding highpass on the center pair or just allowing for the natural low end rolloff of the fig-8's.  Same could be applied to other configs of course, but that one in particular intrigues me.

I generally dont mess with any filters or roll off on the way in, simply because I want to wait until I get the material back to a known enviroment and see how the freqs. interact. all roll offs can be done later...no point in taking a chance unless there is something really problematic.

[Gutbucket]

I generally dont mess with any filters or roll off on the way in, simply because I want to wait until I get the material back to a known enviroment and see how the freqs. interact. all roll offs can be done later...no point in taking a chance unless there is something really problematic.
[/quote]

Understood of course, I agree doing it in post would be the more prudent choice.  I was refering to the final results.

[BayTaynt3d]

I sometimes EQ very differently on different mics. I tend to do this when I do a combo of a single stereo pair and then reinforce with a couple of spot mics. For example if I run a single stereo pair as my main AUD, then another mic stuck in the piano (think Jazz quartet maybe) because I know it'll be really low in the mix because it is in the back or something like that, then I might try to isolate the piano more on the spot mic to some extent. Piano is a tough example because it goes way up and down the scale, but my point is that I might roll off the deep bass (being picked up from the double-bass and kick drum) and de-ess or roll-off the super highs (from the high hats) on the spot mic, so when I do mix in more of the piano to the main stereo pair, I know I'm not adding too much more uber-lows or highs, just (mostly) more of the piano. Anyway, that was meant just as an example, but you can extrapolate from there...

[bgalizio]

I have to bump this thread, as I'm considering picking up the Avantone CK-1 in addition to my Pelusos. Yes, I know I just stated a few days ago that I'm scared of 4-mic mixes and phase issues. Still am.

So, what would be gained by having these two sets of mics, considering I probably wouldn't be able to split either the Avantone omnis or Peluso subcards? Has anyone run, say, cards/hypers XY with subcards NOS? Or would all this not be worth it for the final mix?

[Shawn]

I have to bump this thread, as I'm considering picking up the Avantone CK-1 in addition to my Pelusos. Yes, I know I just stated a few days ago that I'm scared of 4-mic mixes and phase issues. Still am.

So, what would be gained by having these two sets of mics, considering I probably wouldn't be able to split either the Avantone omnis or Peluso subcards? Has anyone run, say, cards/hypers XY with subcards NOS? Or would all this not be worth it for the final mix?

I've run two coincident or near coincindent pairs a few times, and I got a little heat for it from some people. what I can tell you is that the best audience recording I've ever made was ADK TL's (hypers NOS) + akg 461 (DIN with 60hz roll-off). While that may seem like a random combination of mics I specifically chooose them together because the AKGs have a bright top end and the TLs have a big fat LD low end. mixing them together really evened things out. The configurations on that particualr occassion were more of an experiemnt, and hoenstly at the time I didn't plan on mixing them together. When I was messing around with things In post I quickly realized how great they sounded together. On the other hand, as far as configurations go I really do dig a split omni + coincident pair sound and find it to be the superior setup if the room acoustics are good enough to run omnis.

I'd be more worried about phase issues with running 4 mic on-stage/stage lip. i've seen numerous split omnis + a near coincident pair on-stage tapes lately, and  I can't for the life of me figure out how people are doing that without some very wierd phase issues. at greater distances I think the phase issues are diminshed, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Todd R]

I have to bump this thread, as I'm considering picking up the Avantone CK-1 in addition to my Pelusos. Yes, I know I just stated a few days ago that I'm scared of 4-mic mixes and phase issues. Still am.

So, what would be gained by having these two sets of mics, considering I probably wouldn't be able to split either the Avantone omnis or Peluso subcards? Has anyone run, say, cards/hypers XY with subcards NOS? Or would all this not be worth it for the final mix?

Barring on-stage configurations (and sbd-ambient mic matrix mixes, though those aren't 4mic mixes), what I'm really hoping to accomplish with a 4-mic mix is this:  (1) get the "focus" and soundstage detail I find I get with say cardioids near-coincident (or hypers) (2) get the huge soundstage and feeling of spaciousness I get with split omnis.  This is what I'm hoping for, though I really haven't gotten there yet.  In large part since I most likely will only do this for outdoor shows and I just haven't had enough opportunity to try yet.

My main impetus has been the fact that I just haven't been too excited by my split/j-disk omni 2ch recordings, and I want to capture that omni magic while still retaining the soundstage detail I find with cardioids.

That said, for me, I don't think I'd be happy with omnis/subcards NOS.  Just not convinced that'd capture the huge soundstage I'm hoping for -- I'm guessing it might even make the mix tend more towards mono than just a 2ch cardioid near-coincident recording.  If split omnis are out, I'd recommend trying j-disk omnis for the 2 channels.

BTW, why is split omnis out?  Even a 1-meter split will give you good stereo separation, and this isn't too hard to accomplish with one stand (for all 4 channels).  If it is concerns about phasing, using a true coincident pattern for your cards should help.

Also, it'd be helpful to know what you are trying to accomplish with a 4-mic mix in order to comment on whether NOS omnis would work -- I'm just projecting my desires onto your proposed configuration.

[BayTaynt3d]

I think you'd be missing out on a lot of the potential of 4-mic mixes by not being able to spot or split. That said, if you had to run four together, I'd be trying a mix of tight patterns with wide patterns. Maybe ORTF hypers with XY cards, that'd give you a nice center and the hypers might be able to reach out to the sides more? Just a thought. Anyway, I think the point would be to get two very different sources for later use in the mixdown (or are you mixing on the fly?).

[bgalizio]

I have to bump this thread, as I'm considering picking up the Avantone CK-1 in addition to my Pelusos. Yes, I know I just stated a few days ago that I'm scared of 4-mic mixes and phase issues. Still am.

So, what would be gained by having these two sets of mics, considering I probably wouldn't be able to split either the Avantone omnis or Peluso subcards? Has anyone run, say, cards/hypers XY with subcards NOS? Or would all this not be worth it for the final mix?

Barring on-stage configurations (and sbd-ambient mic matrix mixes, though those aren't 4mic mixes), what I'm really hoping to accomplish with a 4-mic mix is this:  (1) get the "focus" and soundstage detail I find I get with say cardioids near-coincident (or hypers) (2) get the huge soundstage and feeling of spaciousness I get with split omnis.  This is what I'm hoping for, though I really haven't gotten there yet.  In large part since I most likely will only do this for outdoor shows and I just haven't had enough opportunity to try yet.

My main impetus has been the fact that I just haven't been too excited by my split/j-disk omni 2ch recordings, and I want to capture that omni magic while still retaining the soundstage detail I find with cardioids.

That said, for me, I don't think I'd be happy with omnis/subcards NOS.  Just not convinced that'd capture the huge soundstage I'm hoping for -- I'm guessing it might even make the mix tend more towards mono than just a 2ch cardioid near-coincident recording.  If split omnis are out, I'd recommend trying j-disk omnis for the 2 channels.

BTW, why is split omnis out?  Even a 1-meter split will give you good stereo separation, and this isn't too hard to accomplish with one stand (for all 4 channels).  If it is concerns about phasing, using a true coincident pattern for your cards should help.

Also, it'd be helpful to know what you are trying to accomplish with a 4-mic mix in order to comment on whether NOS omnis would work -- I'm just projecting my desires onto your proposed configuration.

I think my goal with a 4 mic mix would be similar to yours - get the huge subcard NOS sound with some focused sound as well. That's what I like about SBD/AUD matrixes as well. But, I'm new to 4 mic mixes and am not quite sure what could be achieved.

Split omnis are essentially out because of space constraints. I'm generally the only taper and keeping things somewhat low profile is key. Running 2 pairs of mics, one pair XY, one pair NOS, doesn't interfere much more than one pair of mics. I guess I could split as far as the AKG stereo bar goes (something like 8.5"), but that isn't much.

Same goes for the J-disc. I ran one a few times when I had C4's, but it was too much of an eye sore for other concert-goers.

And, this is most likely going to be all "ambient," not on-stage. Mixing would be done in post, as the R-4 makes that very easy.

[stirinthesauce]

Another option for omnis on a single stand is an AB stereo setup of 17cm, caps at 180 degrees.  Also known as the Healy Method.  I've done this before for the need of a small footprint several times with mixied results.  When done where the desired result was achieved, it was an ideal room (sonically), location was optimum, and the omnis were down about 25% in the mix, maybe less maybe more    .  As Todd stated, I too look for the focus yet huge soundstage.  

Oh, and mixing on the fly made this terribly difficult the first few times.  Mixing in post makes things so much easier. 

[OFOTD]

Happy that this thread is seeing some life.

For Panic a few weeks ago I ran 4 channel for three nights in a row.  All three were the same config.

1: AKG 483 (x/y) > ACM V3 > R4 Pro
2: AKG 482 (split 42") > Wmod R4 Pro



Usually I never run x/y but on the suggestion of Doug Oade I decided to try it for the weekend.   The thought was that by running x/y that most of the bass would then defer to the split omnis.  Didn't happen.  Two things really struck me.  The first was how far away and distant JB's voice sounded on both tapes and second was how much bass came through.  Really too much bass.  I tried rolling off some of it from both sources and in the end only mixed one night as I needed to take a break from listening to the same stuff a million times.  My ears became overwhelmed. 

I am hoping this weekend at Old Settlers to run 10 different configs.  Well that's the goal anyways, 10 different configs.    I have kinda decided to make sure I run a tried and true (din, dina) and make sure that at the very least I get a good 2 channel tape.  While not discouraged by 4 channel recording I am very much hoping the learning curve gets a whole lot quicker.

[Shawn]

you could try running the roll off switch on the x/y pair. That always improved the quality of my 4 mic tapes. it does really help focus the bass on the omni pair.

[stirinthesauce]

I spot a zman in that pic 

[stirinthesauce]

Back to the discussion though.  I have had experiences like yours also, OFOTD where bass was overwhelming.  I've also found that xy doesn't cut the bass (at least not noticeable to my ears) but gives me a not too ideal (non realistic) soundstage, at least outdoors with sd's.  LD's is another ballgame.

Try mixing differently in post.  Rolling off the bass, maybe bumping the mid highs or highs for some presence, keeping the omnis lower in the mix.

Or it could be just a poorly mixed PA that night 

My best experiences running 4 mic mixes have been in the sweet spot, up close, in doors, in sonically good rooms. 

[OFOTD]

you could try running the roll off switch on the x/y pair. That always improved the quality of my 4 mic tapes. it does really help focus the bass on the omni pair.

I thought about that but in the end always defaulted to making changes in post.  I knew going in that experimentation is the key.  I just wish 3 nights of Panic was not the place to do that. 

Back to the discussion though.  I have had experiences like yours also, OFOTD where bass was overwhelming.  I've also found that xy doesn't cut the bass (at least not noticeable to my ears) but gives me a not too ideal (non realistic) soundstage,

Took the exact words right out of my mouth.  +T