Topic: my next mics: DPA's? Schoeps? Neumann? Milabs? other? opinions wanted

[JasonSobel]

hey everyone.  here's the deal.
I love my Microtech Gefells.  I am very happy with the sound of my current recording gear (MG m200 > V3 > HD-P2).
however, I think that over the next several months, I'm going to be swapping out gear to get a low-profile recording setup, and also one that I can keep in a smaller bag
I'm considering many options, and here are my thoughts.  I'd love to hear any input from any of you.
oh, yeah, before we get to the mics, I think I'll be selling the V3 and the Tascam, and buying a SD 702.  I'd love to keep the V3, and another external pre might be in my future at some point down the line.  but part of the deal is that I don't want to spend a lot of money doing this.  selling the V3 and the HD-P2 will get me close to the 702, and selling the gefells will get me close to just about any mic out there.  so at this point, lets assume running mic-in to the 702.

I should also point out that in the many years that I've been taping, I've only had cards.  I've borrowed both hypers and omnis, and there are definitely times and places for those caps.  but I don't need them.  90% of the time, I'd run cards anyway, and the additional cost of extra caps isn't worth it for me.  so, cardiod caps is what I need

now, obviously, the choices I present below are quite varied, and a lot of this will come down to personal opinion.  but that's what this thread is all about, gathering other people's opinions.  so let's hear it.  also, if there's an option that you think I should consider that isn't listed below, let's hear it.

MG nbox
this would be the ideal solution for me, because I get to keep my gefell caps   but, who knows if this will ever be a reality, and how soon.  I already sent Nick a PM asking about the current status, so we'll see what he says.  if this will be ready to go in the next few months, that's my first choice.

DPA 4022
I think these mics rock.  definitely more transparent then the gefells, but on the other hand, the SD 702 is more colored than the V3.  so these could be a good fit running straight into the 702.  and I know there are several folks on this board who run thaty combo.  but these mics are expensive and they don't come up for sale used very often.  how much would a new pair set me back??

Neumann km140 with actives
these could also be a good option.  in general, they sound similar to the gefells, which I love.  but I think the bass handling isn't quite as good, the mids are very sweet, similar to the gefells.  but then the highs are a little less smooth than the gefells.  overall, similar to the gefells, but not quite as good.  I used to run the km184s for years, and of course there are a million recordings made with the km140s, so I'm familiar with there sound.  anyone run these directly into a sound devices?  with these, I think they sound best with a very transparant pre-amp behind them, and I'm not sure if the SD 702 pre-amp is up to that task.  what do you think?

Schoeps ccm4
schoeps are schoeps.  I've heard a million great sounding recordings with them.  and I've borrowed them many times in the past for stealthing (mk4 > kc5 > cmc6).  if I went with Schoeps, I think I'd go with the ccm4's, because they are smaller, and I don't really see myself needing anything other than cards anyway.  I like the sound of schoeps.  in my opinion, they are a more "laid back" mic that sounds good, but less in your face.  again, I think they shine with a transparant pre-amp, which the SD 702 pre-amps may not be the best match.  anyone run schoeps > sound devices??

Milab VM-44 Link
I've only heard a couple of recordings with these.  so I don't know too much about them.  in your opinion, do they stack up to the other options listed here?



so, that's where I am right now.  what do you think?  are there other options?  (and don't tell me about MBHO actives.  those mics are definitely not suited to my taste).

[nickgregory]

So I made the transition from MG to DPA a little over a year back and honestly have not looked back.  My main reason for switching was (1) I was absolutely tired of dealing with full bodies, and (2) I got a helluva a deal on the 4022s I bought (bought through a total package and resold everything else in it).  Given that though, I knew in my search for actives that I was either going to get an active setup for the MGs (was in conversation with Jon from JK Labs before he disappeared) or just get the 4022s, as none of the other options I was considering (Schoeps, Neumanns, MBHOs) came anywhere my taste in sound from a microphone. 

Now before the sale I was running MG200s->722...having recently switched from V3->DAT.  I found the 722 was more pleasing to the ear than the V3 with the MGs, as the V3 tended to lose some of the "warmness" that I liked with my tapes.  The 722 reminded me of my favorite combo to that point, the MP2->Mod SBM1, but unlike that combo, the bass was no where near as undefined and boomy as the MP2->Mod SBM1 would sometimes create.  The 722 to me was a pretty good middle ground between the V3 and MP2->Mod SBM1.

Shortly after getting the 722, the deal on the 4022s came up and I jumped on them, and with the help of a friend, had the deal wrapped up in a quick timeframe.  Now honestly, I loved the MGs...no question about it, and they are still one of my favorite microphones especially for rock music.  The active option of the 4022s was very appealing to me and to add that I had a ton of 4022 recordings that I loved from Scott and George.  So while I entered it a little blind as there werent many 4022>722 tapes available at the time, I made the move anyway.

The 4022s performed perfectly as I expected...pleasing sounding across the entire range, with definition.  Where they differed from the MGs is I think the bass from the MG200s was a little overwhelming to the mid range and higs at times.  The 4022s are pretty level across the board.  Now the one thing that took some getting used to on the 4022s was how to run them. 

Next came the common "DPAs are average unless in the sweet spot" issue.  Initially I was running them pretty much ORTF all the time with the occassional ORTF thrown in.  The stereo bar was just to tempting to not always use, and given XY with the MGs prduced very non dynamic sounding recordings to my ears I stayed away.  Scott Brown convinced me that for really poor acoustic enviroments I would be better off to get the individual shocks and a vark bar, and point the mics outside of the stacks.  This method has created some of my favorite tapes in really bad acoustic environments.  It still gives me the sense of space that I like and takes away some of the god awful echoes and bouncing effects I would hear normally.  With XY, Craig Davis convinced me that I should give that a shot more often, especially in areas where I am bit farther back than is suitable for ORTF (or you end up getting wierd echo artifcats), and unlike the MG XY experience I had, I found the 4022s to be extremely lively when setup this way.

So all that said, am I happy I made the move?  Without question.  My main concern with going with the 4022s was the average tapes and "some nights fantastic, most average" syndrome, and I am happy to report that this is not the case in my experience.  If you learn how to set them up for the environment you are in, and dont constrain yourself with the XY/ORTF bar, you can make fantastic tapes all of the time.  In addition, my current rig of 4022->722, is as simple as it gets and a rig that I am getting consistent results from.  In reading  your question, I wondered if there would be a case, if I had both sets of mics, would I chose to run the MGs over the DPAs, and the answer is no (talking cards here...I would love a set of omni MGs to play with). 

Rambled on a bit, hope that helps.  Here are some tapes if you are interested in hearing results with different combos

4022s->M148->722

http://www.archive.org/details/tishamingo2006-04-01.flac16

4022s->722

http://www.archive.org/details/tishamingo2006-11-04.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/glenphillips2005-11-06.flac16
http://www.archive.org/details/dbt2005-11-19.flac16

[shaggy]

Now with Schoeps, you have the new CMR active head to consider.  Schoeps will terminate them to any batt pack connection you like.  You get a 'CCM-like' set up but have the latitude of changing caps with out adding too much bulk (just your battery pack putting out 4-10V, no lemosax or vms needed).  Just place your favorite pre of choice behind the batt pack.  Oleg was saying that the are about $280 each in Germany, which seems so un-Schoeps like.

http://www.schoeps.de/PDFs/Schoeps-CMR.pdf

[JasonSobel]

thanks for both of your input, Nick especially...

Initially I was running them pretty much ORTF all the time with the occassional ORTF thrown in

oh yeah, ORTF most of the time, but sometimes ORTF 
but seriously, you touched on just about everything I have been thinking about and it's good to know that you've had a positive experience with the DPA's.

Now with Schoeps, you have the new CMR active head to consider.  Schoeps will terminate them to any batt pack connection you like.  You get a 'CCM-like' set up but have the latitude of changing caps with out adding too much bulk (just your battery pack putting out 4-10V, no lemosax or vms needed).  Just place your favorite pre of choice behind the batt pack.  Oleg was saying that the are about $280 each in Germany, which seems so un-Schoeps like.

http://www.schoeps.de/PDFs/Schoeps-CMR.pdf

you know, I saw that, but really, it doesn't interest me at all.  what's nice about the CCM series is that you just plug it straight in and your are good to go.  with that, you've got this extra little box.  granted, it's not big, but I'd go with the cmc6 bodies and kc5 active cables before I got that new box.  but, the whole thing is a moot point, because I'm happy with just cards and in all likely-hood, I wouldn't spend my money on other caps even if I did have the option.


any other input about these choices?

[nickgregory]

thanks for both of your input, Nick especially...

Initially I was running them pretty much ORTF all the time with the occassional ORTF thrown in

oh yeah, ORTF most of the time, but sometimes ORTF 
but seriously, you touched on just about everything I have been thinking about and it's good to know that you've had a positive experience with the DPA's.

damn...fingers going faster than the brain.  Initially I was running ORTF with XY occassionally...duh

[ingsy]

Hey Jason!  long time, no speak.  As you know I traded my MG 200/210 setup for a set of Schoeps CCM41's...I can't say I like the sound a great deal more than the MGs (sometimes the extra low end is good, othertimes not) - but having a much smaller/lighter set of mics has many benefits.  Outside of the FOB/Stealth options they provide, I just tend to worry less while taping knowing that if the stand does fall, at least the mics on top won't hurt too much if they hit someone on the head - I know that sounds stupid but it is true (FWIW, it happened to me once).  Having a light gear bag that is easy to setup makes taping less hectic.
As you stated, the CCM setup is very easy, especially if this is going into an all in one box.
My opinion is that the MG NBox is also the best option - please shoot me a PM or update the thread with any info you find out about this.  You bought the MGs after the price increase and you might have to take a hit if selling them used.  At the very least I think the used price on those would be a good bit away from a brand new set of 4022's or ccm4's. I would say go w/ the DPAs as the second choice - mainly because you tape a lot of the same stuff Scott does and he has the Schoeps angle covered. Hope all is well, good luck with your decision. 

[Tim]

moke - do you have a vark bar and mic clips for your dpa's?

[Brian]

The ortf/xy bar, as the only option, has somewhat tainted DPA's reputation in poor rooms.

definitely not the only option.  a local st. louis taper (fobstl) uses the dpa shockmounts  with an akg(i think?) swivel t-bar for pretty much any variation of the standard patterns other than NOS.  however you could modify the t-bar to get NOS easily.  those DPA shockmounts are kind of a pain in the ass though i think.

[nickgregory]

the DPA shocks arent bad...just expensive.  And paired with the vark bar, makes for a nice quick setup, low profile and any angle (other than NOS) you will need

[Brian]

gotcha.  i thought that you had made a lot of your own bars.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I vaguely remember reading that the dpa's are more sensitive to wind than other SD mics?

[JasonSobel]

lots of good info here.  mostly about the DPAs.  hardly any comments on the CCM series, and nothing about the km140 active setup, hmmm....

anyway

My opinion is that the MG NBox is also the best option - please shoot me a PM or update the thread with any info you find out about this.  You bought the MGs after the price increase and you might have to take a hit if selling them used.  At the very least I think the used price on those would be a good bit away from a brand new set of 4022's or ccm4's. I would say go w/ the DPAs as the second choice - mainly because you tape a lot of the same stuff Scott does and he has the Schoeps angle covered. Hope all is well, good luck with your decision. 

I'll definitely update this thread if/when I hear anything about the possible MG nbox.  at this point, though, I'm not really counting on it. and of course, cost is always a consideration.  I did pay a lot for the MG mics, and I hope that I'll be able to get a fair price for them here.  if not, I'll take them to ebay, although I'd prefer not to do that.  anyway, I'm more at the "conceptual stage" of things here, so I haven't really added up the hard numbers yet.  we'll get to that later   oh, also, although I'm leaning towards the DPAs of the CCMs, what Scott is running doesn't really affect my choices at all.  he's moving to LA in a month or two, so it's only a couple more d'Elf shows for him anyway.

in the meantime, let's keep this thread going.  has anyone run both the CCM's and/or the km140s directly into a sound devices box??  any other comments?

[Brian Skalinder]

I've stayed out of the thread as its such a personal decision.  I've run both Schoeps MKx/KC5/CMC6 and Neumann KM140s.  Love both sets of mics.  All the mics mentioned here are superior mics.  Haven't heard much of the Milabs, but what I've heard I've liked.  You gotta do what sounds best to your ears.

FWIW, I initially didn't like DPA's very transparent sound, but over time I've grown to appreciate them more and more.  Two big reasons for this, I think:  <1> my listening ear has developed over time, becoming more active and discerning, and not unrelated <2> I've improved my playback system.  The DPAs provide astonishing detail and depth and, of course, transparency.  (I've never understood folks comparing the 480s to the DPAs, I just don't hear similarities in ambient PA recordings.)

From the recordings I've heard, running the DPAs DIN, or a config with a tighter included angle than ORTF makes a huge difference in mediocre or poor sounding venues.  Just a guess, but I think narrowing the included angle on the DPAs doesn't collapse the soundstage and imaging as much as some other mics because they're so damn detailed.

Personally, I could never go with DPAs because I love too much the option of different polar patterns.  Hence my 414-XLS with omni/sub/card/hyper/figure-8 and Schoeps with omni/sub/card/hyper. 

[nickgregory]

(I've never understood folks comparing the 480s to the DPAs, I just don't hear similarities in ambient PA recordings.)

that makes two of us.  the difference is night and day in terms of the detail between the two

[MULETAPER]

the y let the hounds out jason!!!

thanks for your pm,when your ready to sell your 200's I ve got a great home for them....