Topic: Newbie looking to upgrade her equip

[tokay]

So, I've been stalking equipment reviews for a little while now, and I've read a lot of wildlife/nature recordist forums, but I wanted to pose my question to this forum because I'm impressed with how much everyone seems to know.

Anyway, here's my situation:
Last summer I wandered around the Sonoran desert collecting soundscapes that will ultimately be used in a composition.  I had an Edirol R-9 and a Rode NT4, but I found this combo incredibly frustrating.  Every time I plugged in the NT4, the signal seemed weaker than the edirol's own internal mics, plus I'd get this awful hiss and click.  For most of the summer I just collected recordings with the Edirol R-9 on its own (no external mics), and while I enjoyed the process and some of the recordings I was able to come up with, I'd still like some higher quality, better detailed sounds to work with.  I was able to borrow a Zoom H4 for a short amount of time, and that worked out much better with the NT4 (but I didn't have a ton of time to mess with it or master it).  My hunch is that the Edirol's minijack connection was a large part of the problem, so now I'm feeling a bit stubborn about owning equip w/ XLR connections (but I also don't know any better).

Anyway, I'm heading out again this summer, and I still have the Rode NT4 and the Edirol R-9, and it also looks like I'll be able to borrow the Zoom H4 again (and for the whole time if I want).  But, the good news is, I can upgrade something (or everything) since I have $500 in grant money to spend (but I'm willing to spend a little bit out of pocket if I must).

So, if you were me, where would you begin?  My hunch was to keep the Rode NT4 and go for a better recording device (the Fostex FR2-le is appealing, especially with the Oade upgrades), but I've heard from others to sell the NT4 and invest in better mics.  I kind of like the NT4 because it's easy to use and set up, but if there's another mic or pair of mics that's drastically better within this budget, I'd be interested in recs for those as well.

I'm also interested in any advice on field mixers or preamps.  I realize it'll make my setup a little less portable, but if the sound quality is that much better, it's worth it to me.  On the wildlife recording websites that I've read there wasn't much talk of them at all, and I didn't even think of that (or realize it was an option) until stumbling across this site.

Also, just to throw this out there: my biggest priority is investing in equipment that will give me high quality soundscapes, but I'm also eyeing some shotgun mics to give me more tools/details to play with.  Is it unrealistic at this point to start looking at these?  The decent ones seem to run at a minimum of $200 - and then there's shock mounts and windscreens and all that on top of everything, which doesn't leave too much money for investing in better overall equipment. 

Sorry for this long post!  I've been sitting around with all these questions in my brain for too long.  In any case, any and all opinions would be beyond appreciated (I guess you could say I'm all ears...).

[rastasean]

The NT4 is a very nice microphone and I would love to have one of them...one day.

The R09 has been upgraded to the 09hr so you may want to check into that and read how nice of a new recorder it is.

Anyway, it would be best if you used a pre-amp in between the 09 and the nt4. Something like the Sound Devices mixpre would work perfectly and its pretty tiny so you don't have to lug too much around. There is a recent post on the sound devices mix pre: R09HR with MixPre, Optimal Settings...

You're doing right by just reading and asking questions. No reason to jump in buying expensive gear that you may not enjoy using. Take your time acquiring and learning!

[tokay]

The NT4 is a very nice microphone and I would love to have one of them...one day.

The R09 has been upgraded to the 09hr so you may want to check into that and read how nice of a new recorder it is.

Anyway, it would be best if you used a pre-amp in between the 09 and the nt4. Something like the Sound Devices mixpre would work perfectly and its pretty tiny so you don't have to lug too much around. There is a recent post on the sound devices mix pre: R09HR with MixPre, Optimal Settings...

You're doing right by just reading and asking questions. No reason to jump in buying expensive gear that you may not enjoy using. Take your time acquiring and learning!

Yes!  That MixPre does seem enticing (I was pretty impressed with some of the samples digifish posted using this).  The only things I'm a little nervous about are the connections with my particular R-9.  From my experience with the NT4, the minijack connection seemed pretty sloppy, but I wasn't able to connect it with any other mics or devices to find out if it was just a quirk between the R-9 and the NT4 or just a problem with my R-9 in general.  I'm nervous that the Line in connection could be similarly flawed and could ruin the quality of a good preamp.  Are these paranoid musings?  And if not, I could still use the Zoom H4.  Any idea how the H4 would work with the MixPre? 

And since it's about the same price, how does the NT4 -> MixPre -> Zoom H4 (or edirol) compare as a setup to the NT4 -> Fostex Fr2le Basic Oade mod? 

Oh and thanks for the response! 

[Brian Skalinder]

I agree with Sean, I think an SD MixPre would match well with the NT4 and R09.  The hiss you heard when running NT4 > R09 is probably because you were applying gain (amplification) to the NT4 using the R09.  The R09 doesn't have a lot of clean gain.  Using the MixPre, or another suitable preamp with lots of clean gain, should remove the hiss.

The click concerns me, though.  Any chance you can post an MP3 sample?  Could be an NT4 battery, cable, or R-09 input connector issue.  If the NT4 worked okay with the Zoom, it's probably not an NT4 battery issue (unless you didn't use battery power with the zoom, and switched to phantom power;  in which case the issue could still be the NT4 battery power).  To narrow it down further, assuming you have access to some additional gear, test running NT4 > known-good interconnect cable > R-09, and NT4 > known-good interconnect cable > another recording device that accepts the mini-stereo jack.  The goal is to isolate each piece of gear in the recording chain to see if the problem follows a specific piece of gear.

As for the Oade MOD FR-2LE, I think you'd want the Super MOD for nature / ambient (unamplified source) recording.  This will provide higher gain than the Basic MOD.  But it's also another $150.  I can't compare sound quality directly to the MixPre > R-09 / Zoom, but do have a couple general comments:

• The NT4 > FR-2LE combo should prove more robust physically, mainly due to more secure (XLR) cable connections.  The R-09's mini-stereo connector isn't the most secure / robust connector in the world.
• Purpose-built devices generally provide better quality.  The NT4 > MixPre > recorder option may provide more gain, at higher quality, than the FR-2LE.

There's the conundrum:  do you want a setup (NT4 > FR-2LE) that's more robust and still sounds mighty good, or a slightly more purpose-built setup (NT4 > MixPre > R-09) that's not as robust, but may offer slightly more / cleaner gain?  Given the wealth of reasonably inexpensive, reasonably high quality gear available these days, I'm inclined to keep it simple.  That would lead me to NT4 > FR-2LE, stock, Basic, or Super, depending on your needs and budget.

You might consider calling Doug Oade or sending him an email similar to what you've posted here and pick his brain a bit.  I'm a big fan of Oade modded gear, and he may have some good input for you.  One thing to keep in mind:  at least historically, Doug has allowed me to send back my preamp/ADC/recorder for a MOD upgrade.  So, for example, if you don't have the cash up front for the Super MOD FR-2LE, you could go with the Basic MOD (or stock unit) for now, then send it back later and have it upgraded.  (Note:  If you buy a stock unit, you must buy it from Oade Bros, otherwise I don't think they'll upgrade it later.)  It's a bit more expensive doing it in multiple steps, but it might provide a nice, compact, robust field recording setup now, while also allowing you the option of higher / cleaner gain down the road by simply sending it back for a Basic or Super MOD, without a lot of hassle, changing up of gear, etc.

Oh, and welcome to TS!

[rowjimmytour]

Sorry I don't own a R9 but I thought other owners were experiencing the same problem w/ the cable (line in) so they use a right angle in. Also I would invest in a preamp and keep what you got

[jnorman34]

for the type of ambient recording you are doing, i would recommend that you move away from the fixed XY cards of the NT4 and go to a pair of omnis.  omnis are much less suseptible to wind noise and handling noise, and give a much more diffuse, open ambient sound than cards can do.  go with a recorder that has XLR inputs to accommodate whichever mics you select.  btw, i can highly recommend the new little AT4022 omnis fo this type of work.

[tokay]

There's the conundrum:  do you want a setup (NT4 > FR-2LE) that's more robust and still sounds mighty good, or a slightly more purpose-built setup (NT4 > MixPre > R-09) that's not as robust, but may offer slightly more / cleaner gain?  Given the wealth of reasonably inexpensive, reasonably high quality gear available these days, I'm inclined to keep it simple.  That would lead me to NT4 > FR-2LE, stock, Basic, or Super, depending on your needs and budget.

Seeing it broken down this way, I'm torn!  On the one hand I'm craving some really high quality sound, but on the other I feel a little more at ease with a setup that requires fewer connections and cables (it seems to limit the number of places where something could go wrong, I imagine...but I suppose something could always go wrong within the mic or recording device so I might just be fooling myself).  Probably all of this stems from a general distrust of my Edirol (I'll post some mp3s in a few).  I'll see what you have to say about the clicks, but I'm pretty sure the Edirol's responsible (I ran the NT4 on battery power with the Zoom H4 and while there was the expected hiss, there weren't any clicks).  If I'm able to come across a different mic or piece of equipment that requires the line-in, I'll definitely run some more experiments with it and post my findings. 

You might consider calling Doug Oade or sending him an email similar to what you've posted here and pick his brain a bit.  I'm a big fan of Oade modded gear, and he may have some good input for you.  One thing to keep in mind:  at least historically, Doug has allowed me to send back my preamp/ADC/recorder for a MOD upgrade.  So, for example, if you don't have the cash up front for the Super MOD FR-2LE, you could go with the Basic MOD (or stock unit) for now, then send it back later and have it upgraded.  (Note:  If you buy a stock unit, you must buy it from Oade Bros, otherwise I don't think they'll upgrade it later.)  It's a bit more expensive doing it in multiple steps, but it might provide a nice, compact, robust field recording setup now, while also allowing you the option of higher / cleaner gain down the road by simply sending it back for a Basic or Super MOD, without a lot of hassle, changing up of gear, etc.

I actually was able to get in touch with him, and he had good things to say about both the modded FR-2le and the NT4, so that lends another voice of confidence in that setup.  I also like having the option of upgrading it further if I come across a little more money, so I might just go for this setup in the end.  I have to mull over it a bit more though - it gives me an excuse to obsess over all this stuff for a little longer...

[tokay]

for the type of ambient recording you are doing, i would recommend that you move away from the fixed XY cards of the NT4 and go to a pair of omnis.  omnis are much less suseptible to wind noise and handling noise, and give a much more diffuse, open ambient sound than cards can do.  go with a recorder that has XLR inputs to accommodate whichever mics you select.  btw, i can highly recommend the new little AT4022 omnis fo this type of work.

Yeah, the wind with the NT4 was a little bit of an issue (I did get a Rycote Miniwindjammer, which helped a lot).  Curiously enough, that little windjammer came in pretty handy with the R9.  I discovered that the whole front of the R9 fits perfectly in it, so I was able to cut down on wind noise for the internal mics (which without it were really sensitive to any breeziness).

I'll probably stick with the NT4 in the end though, mostly because it seems workable enough and I'd probably have to sell it at a loss to afford new mics (especially if I'm getting either a new recording device or preamp as well).  Even though the wind handling could be better, I did discover that summer dawns in the desert are usually freakishly still (especially in June).  This did mean quite a few all-nighters for the sake of recording at daybreak, but there's something romantic about reworking your routine around the whim of the wind or some such thing. 

I'll definitely keep those omnis in mind for the future though - do you do field/soundscape recording as well? 

[tokay]

Here's the audio with the clicking issues (let me know if there's another preferred method of sharing audio):

http://www.yousendit.com/download/UmNMRE9ncG9iR0pFQlE9PQ

The first half of the mp3 is the NT4 with the R9, and the second half is the NT4 with the Zoom H4 (also using battery power).  I upped the gain for both using Logic so you can hear the clicks a bit better. 

[George2]

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105893.msg1443847.html#msg1443847

Sound Devices Mix Pre!!

[EYES]

i had a cable made for the nt4> to mini that helped rock my recordings. if you would like it send pm i will help. have new cable nt4 to xlr just made for a another upgraded all in 1 recorder. both cables made by ts member.

[sunjan]

Given the wealth of reasonably inexpensive, reasonably high quality gear available these days, I'm inclined to keep it simple.  That would lead me to NT4 > FR-2LE, stock, Basic, or Super, depending on your needs and budget.

Seeing it broken down this way, I'm torn!  On the one hand I'm craving some really high quality sound, but on the other I feel a little more at ease with a setup that requires fewer connections and cables

I'd go with Bri's advice. There's no need to hold on to the R-09, you'll get a better user interface with a bigger box like the FR2-LE. Sell the R-09 here at the YS, and you'll have more money to spend with Oade!
I don't know enough about their mods with other gear, but there's always the Marantz PMD series, which also can be had "ambient-modded", and should stand up well against the FR2-LE. Don't know if they would bust your budget though...

[fmaderjr]

I have  an NT4, a Mix Pre, and an R-09. The NT-4, when used with the 1/8 output, does not sound nearly as good as when used with phantom power.

One route would be to get a used MixPre or the cheaper Wendt X2 ($300 on E-Bay) to power the mic and to amplify. If you are going to use a preamp anyway, you'll hear little benefit from upgrading the R-09 if it is working properly. If there is a problem with the line in jack causing the click, someone on this board may be able to perform the fix for a reasonable price. I would not rely on the Zoom H-4. Very unintuitive to use, and I got a lot of noise when I tested my NT4 with the H4's phantom power. My R-09 sounds great when I get my gain from the MixPre, but I've never had any problem with the input jacks.

Or if you want an all in one, I think sunjan has a good idea suggesting something like the Oade Super Mod Marantz PDM-661. I imagine Busman does something like this as well.

[EYES]

i picked the nt4 up with mt recorder. than ordered a, S.P. mt interface, that allows me to use the 1/4" trs line in. with the upgraded cable nt4>1/8">mt interface the sound is great for me. i know there are other ways to go as suggested. it's up to you. just be sure UR HAPPY

[moooose]

Here is one more voice (mine) suggesting the purchase of the SD MixPre. I do field recording, most nature sounds, and the combo MixPre + NT4 works very well. My recorder is now a Sony PCM D50, previously a korg MR-1 - with both I got pleasant results.
If you keep an open eye on yard sale you can get a used MixPre for around $ 500, which should fit your budget.