Topic: On stage mic positioning?

[Church-Audio]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

[NJFunk]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

[Church-Audio]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....

Chris Church

[NJFunk]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....

Chris Church

You're still avoiding this particular situation.  This was not Bon Jovi with a world class sound system in a large arena and a world class monitor engineer.  This was a bunch of guys in a bar with the guitarist running the PA system which had one main mix and one monitor mix and only vocals in the PA. 

In terms of your other three criteria:

1.  I was not hired by the band and they did not adjust their on stage amp volume to suit my recording.
2.  The mics were placed where I wanted, but I certainly did not rearrange where the musicians were.
3.  There were vocals.

All three conditions were not met, yet I came away with a terrific recording.  Your assertation of 95% is laughable.  I have run these types of mixes a lot.  My experience has been that about 2/3 sound great and 1/3 are not usable.  Here are some other examples on the LMA that I did the same way:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-01-13-Matrix
http://www.archive.org/details/jbox2006-04-28-Matrix

This is one where the drums came out too loud.  This is about the limit of bad mix that I will tolerate and still spread:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-02-10-Matrix

Anything worse than that will be deleted and forgotten.

There's no way in hell a straight audience recording of any of these gigs would have come even close to the quality of the stage lip recording (even in the case of the one where the mix is a little off).  These are also done in venues where there was no soundman much less a monitor engineer, the PA mix was done on-stage by the musicians, and there were only vocal mics (with vocals and horns played through the vocal mics in the case of the Blue Method) or vocal mics plus a touch of kick drum in the SBD part of the feed.

These are not jazz or country or accoustic.  What say you?

[Church-Audio]

This isn't a perfect comparison, but here are two recordings that I made of the same band in the same venue with the same mic/preamp/recorder.  This one is a matrix, but the PA had only vocals (and a tiny bit of kick drum), so the guitar, bass, drums, and keys are all coming from the stage mics:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

This one is a mic recording made from the sweet spot in the audience:

http://www.archive.org/details/jhb2006-06-24.flac16

I'll take the stage lip recording every day of the week.  The sound is clearer and more up close sounding and the stereo image is 100x better on the stage lip recording.

The is clear because you don't have all these heads absorbing sound with a good sound system and good mic placement this is not really an issue with audience recording.. I would argue that the mix is going to be off I don't see why no one gets that? You have stage monitors and they could and do have all types of things pumped into them this all effects the mix your getting with a stage mic.. Even if your behind the monitor line? so my question is why would you want to record something when the mix is not perfect? I can understand wanting to record from your perspective.. but I don't understand how someone can say a stage mix is going to be as good as an out front mix.... So I don't see the point in stage recording unless two requirements are met.

1- the band gets the balance right on stage and works with you ( this would only ever happen if they hired you)
2- The mics can be placed WHERE you want them and the band can be rearranged on stage so that the pickup is going to be even..
3- there is no vocal because as soon as you introduce vocal you introduce monitors and getting the balance right after that is almost impossible..

I am trying to understand this way of thinking.. I am not trying to provoke anyone  by saying they are stupid I am just trying to understand the logic.

Does the mix sound off to you?  I think it sounds great.  Do you prefer the audience recording in this case?  I do not, not even close.  I understand your basic premise, that it's more likely that the stage mix will be off, and some of the stage lip recordings I've made I've simply deleted for that exact reason, but on the other hand, when conditions are right, I think some stage or stage lip recordings sound absolutely fantastic.  This is especially true in smaller clubs that are not likely to have good PA systems and are more likely to have a PA feed that can be mixed in that has vocals only on it.  My goal is not to challenge your basic premise, but to get you to acknowledge that there are exceptions to the basic premise and to reject your blanket rule that stage recordings are NEVER preferable without considering the circumstances of the individual situation.

I think you have misunderstood me. I have never said that there is no way a stage recording can sound good quite the opposite stage recordings can sound good if the sound on stage is good and the balance is correct. Musicians on stage its like a war they are fighting tooth and nail to here them selves so that they can get there intonation and timing and so that they feel comfortable with there show.. Its very VERY hard to get a good balance with monitors so most musicians settle for just being able to hear them selves perform... This balance can happen when you throw lots of money at it I was a pa tech for Jon Bonjovi when he was in Canada his monitor engineer was Alan Richardson, the regular guy they used was not with them I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BETTER STAGE SOUND IN MY LIFE. then I did when he was mixing monitors.... PERIOD.. if you had a set of mics for any one of these shows it would have sounded better then the front of house mix. But this is one of the worlds best monitor engineers and it sounded like god! I felt like quiting doing sound after I heard his monitor mix.. I was depressed for days.. But I learned a lot from him. So Yes stage sound can be very good. But you have to have the right gear and the right monitor engineer with a band that wants it to sound like Front of house or a studio on stage * they are very rare * And there is only so many Alan Richardson's to go around... So the chances of getting a better recording of an out front mix are I would say 95% better then getting a good on stage recording.. With an amplified band with vocals.. Who is not JAZZ or Country....

Chris Church

You're still avoiding this particular situation.  This was not Bon Jovi with a world class sound system in a large arena and a world class monitor engineer.  This was a bunch of guys in a bar with the guitarist running the PA system which had one main mix and one monitor mix and only vocals in the PA. 

In terms of your other three criteria:

1.  I was not hired by the band and they did not adjust their on stage amp volume to suit my recording.
2.  The mics were placed where I wanted, but I certainly did not rearrange where the musicians were.
3.  There were vocals.

All three conditions were not met, yet I came away with a terrific recording.  Your assertation of 95% is laughable.  I have run these types of mixes a lot.  My experience has been that about 2/3 sound great and 1/3 are not usable.  Here are some other examples on the LMA that I did the same way:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-01-13-Matrix
http://www.archive.org/details/jbox2006-04-28-Matrix

This is one where the drums came out too loud.  This is about the limit of bad mix that I will tolerate and still spread:

http://www.archive.org/details/tbm2006-02-10-Matrix

Anything worse than that will be deleted and forgotten.

There's no way in hell a straight audience recording of any of these gigs would have come even close to the quality of the stage lip recording (even in the case of the one where the mix is a little off).  These are also done in venues where there was no soundman much less a monitor engineer, the PA mix was done on-stage by the musicians, and there were only vocal mics (with vocals and horns played through the vocal mics in the case of the Blue Method) or vocal mics plus a touch of kick drum in the SBD part of the feed.

These are not jazz or country or accoustic.  What say you?

I listened to Night and day of your recording.. It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close.... The mix is pretty good but the guitar solo is too low in the mix, and the bass is almost none existent and for R&B THATS DEATH.. as the bass guitar is the foundation I can hear the kick the balance is pretty good but the sound of the instruments is muffled and not very clear like a good out front mix would be.


You have to remember sound is very subjective. But I don't think anyone would argue this is not as well of a balanced recording as it could be that's not your fault you did not mix it. But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer. The tonality is not there not like it is with a good out front mix. If you want to capture the way things sounded is a small club I think you have done it. But its still not going to be as good as it could be with a real sound system and good room mic placement.. I don't see how you can argue that.



Chris Church

[it-goes-to-eleven]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

[NJFunk]

I listened to Night and day of your recording.. It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close.... The mix is pretty good but the guitar solo is too low in the mix, and the bass is almost none existent and for R&B THATS DEATH.. as the bass guitar is the foundation I can hear the kick the balance is pretty good but the sound of the instruments is muffled and not very clear like a good out front mix would be.


You have to remember sound is very subjective. But I don't think anyone would argue this is not as well of a balanced recording as it could be that's not your fault you did not mix it. But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer. The tonality is not there not like it is with a good out front mix. If you want to capture the way things sounded is a small club I think you have done it. But its still not going to be as good as it could be with a real sound system and good room mic placement.. I don't see how you can argue that.



Chris Church

First of all, I'm not sure which recording you can't hear the bass on.  The 1/13/06 bass is a little low, but it was a little low at the club, and there was no way to fix that other than to turn up the stage sound since there was no bass in the PA anyway.  At one point in that recording, you can hear the vocalist say "Dapp, turn yourself up" - Dapp is the bassist and the only way to turn him up is for him to do it himself on stage.  On the other recordings, the bass sounds fine to me.

So what's your solution?  You say "But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer."  But there is no "proper PA" nor a sound engineer at these clubs.  So what is your solution?  Bring a high end PA and a sound engineer with me?  Not tape the bands I like the most because the venue and the PA aren't up to your specifications?  Record in the audience anyway because it would sound better if it were a better venue (reference the two JHB recordings - the stage lip recording sounds way better than the audience)?  All of these recordings are the best they can be as stage recordings, yet you continue to argue that audience recordings would be better even though the conditions you put on it are unattainable in these circumstances.

[Church-Audio]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

I understand that MY POINT was, that a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording.. I know about shit bars and shit sound systems. Been there done that.. I am talking about when its all said and done, if your looking for the best sound quality in terms of balance and tonality a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room.. That's what I am saying. I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound.. Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree. And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

[Church-Audio]

I listened to Night and day of your recording.. It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close.... The mix is pretty good but the guitar solo is too low in the mix, and the bass is almost none existent and for R&B THATS DEATH.. as the bass guitar is the foundation I can hear the kick the balance is pretty good but the sound of the instruments is muffled and not very clear like a good out front mix would be.


You have to remember sound is very subjective. But I don't think anyone would argue this is not as well of a balanced recording as it could be that's not your fault you did not mix it. But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer. The tonality is not there not like it is with a good out front mix. If you want to capture the way things sounded is a small club I think you have done it. But its still not going to be as good as it could be with a real sound system and good room mic placement.. I don't see how you can argue that.



Chris Church

First of all, I'm not sure which recording you can't hear the bass on.  The 1/13/06 bass is a little low, but it was a little low at the club, and there was no way to fix that other than to turn up the stage sound since there was no bass in the PA anyway.  At one point in that recording, you can hear the vocalist say "Dapp, turn yourself up" - Dapp is the bassist and the only way to turn him up is for him to do it himself on stage.  On the other recordings, the bass sounds fine to me.

So what's your solution?  You say "But its not as good as it could be with a proper PA and a good sound engineer."  But there is no "proper PA" nor a sound engineer at these clubs.  So what is your solution?  Bring a high end PA and a sound engineer with me?  Not tape the bands I like the most because the venue and the PA aren't up to your specifications?  Record in the audience anyway because it would sound better if it were a better venue (reference the two JHB recordings - the stage lip recording sounds way better than the audience)?  All of these recordings are the best they can be as stage recordings, yet you continue to argue that audience recordings would be better even though the conditions you put on it are unattainable in these circumstances.

I am saying that your recording is good its not as good as it would have been if a proper PA was there and if it was an out front recording... I am not saying you did not do a good job.... My whole point has been that people are saying recording the stage is the way to go I say no its not if the out front sound is good that's where your mics should be obviously if there ain't a PA system you have no choice but to stage tape... I never once said if there is no PA system tape in the audience anyway..... My whole point is take the same band put them with a good PA put the mics in the room and It will blow away any stage recording any day... That's what I am saying..... I am saying that in a situation where everything is ideal its more likely to get a better recording out front when the situation is not idea obviously your better off taping the source. That is why we have stack tapers.. Because they feel when the room is bad move the mics closer to the stacks.. That's a whole different can of worms..

[NJFunk]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

I understand that MY POINT was, that a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording.. I know about shit bars and shit sound systems. Been there done that.. I am talking about when its all said and done, if your looking for the best sound quality in terms of balance and tonality a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room.. That's what I am saying. I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound.. Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree. And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

You've officially lost this argument.  You're both backtracking and making strawman arguments.  Your original argument from your first post in the thread was:

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

Which is a far cry from:

a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room..

...

I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound..

It's no longer "it always sucks and the audience is better" but rather "under very narrow circumstances that only I am allowed to define, audience is better".

Secondly, on this point:

Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree.

This is a very poor strawman argument.  I defy you to find a single person in this thread that said that stage recordings are always preferable.  In fact, YOU are the one that said that stage recordings are NEVER preferable and it is us that have said "no, you have to consider the circumstances".

On this point:

And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording..

I don't have an A-B comparison of the same show, but I have provided you recordings of the same band in the same venue with the same PA recorded using the same mics/pre/A-D and the stage recording is 100X better.  I'll take my free mics now, thanks.

[rokpunk]

Mr. Church, what say you?

[Church-Audio]

It sounds like a small club tape but to say it sounds better then a out front mix with a good sound engineer is crazy sorry... Its a good tape of a stage sound but it does not sound better then I could make it with a real PA system sorry Not even close....

Chris, you are missing the point.  These bars VERY often do not have "real" PA systems!  They've got crap in crappy sounding rooms. You are talking what-if's that do not matter. They are not going to rent a "real" PA. We are focused on real world results. Anyone can be a great poker player if they can pick their own cards.

It isn't about what you could do with a particular sound system of your choosing. It is about what you can record on a given night while having no input on how the sound is done.

I understand that MY POINT was, that a good stage recording ANY stage recording will not be as good as a GOOD room recording.. I know about shit bars and shit sound systems. Been there done that.. I am talking about when its all said and done, if your looking for the best sound quality in terms of balance and tonality a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room.. That's what I am saying. I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound.. Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree. And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording.. So I guess my point has been made..

You've officially lost this argument.  You're both backtracking and making strawman arguments.  Your original argument from your first post in the thread was:

I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance the sound on stage always sucks! I mean I have spent 20 years as a live sound engineer I have done both monitors and front of house and in all my years I have heard maybe one or two shows that sounded really good on stage with a great balance. So IMO lose the on stage mics

Which is a far cry from:

a good stage recording of a good show in a good room is still not going to be the same as a good out front recording in a good room..

...

I think when you have a shit box PA you are better off taping the stage... But when you don't your better off taping the out front sound..

It's no longer "it always sucks and the audience is better" but rather "under very narrow circumstances that only I am allowed to define, audience is better".

Secondly, on this point:

Some people are saying that No matter what your better off taping the stage I don't agree.

This is a very poor strawman argument.  I defy you to find a single person in this thread that said that stage recordings are always preferable.  In fact, YOU are the one that said that stage recordings are NEVER preferable and it is us that have said "no, you have to consider the circumstances".

On this point:

And so far no one has been able to show me a good recording. That sounds even close to a good out front recording..

I don't have an A-B comparison of the same show, but I have provided you recordings of the same band in the same venue with the same PA recorded using the same mics/pre/A-D and the stage recording is 100X better.  I'll take my free mics now, thanks.

Your missing the point of my argument.... I said the best on stage tape will not even come close to the best out front tape and I stand by my words I did not lose the argument the recording you provided me was not as good as a good out front mix would be.... Sorry..... No free mics yet. I am still waiting for a good balanced onstage recording with a rock band with vocals... Please show me the tape... I am all ears..

[Church-Audio]

Mr. Church, what say you?

I still stand by my words this is a moronic argument... ok what sounds better at a REAL CONCERT the on stage sound or the sound of the PA system when the sound system is good?? Please why are we even going here??? I mean if the stage sound was so good why have a PA system in the first place? why not just tell everyone to shut the hell up and listen to the stage sound? Or hell why not just stick a few mics up infront of the stage and put that thru the PA..... LOL please......

This is a dumb argument, I never should have started because it seems no one understands what I am trying to say.. maybe I am the dummy for not being able to explain my self.... oh well I am still waiting for the stage recording that blows away the best out front mix I have ever heard, still no one has given me such a recording....

Chris Church

[NJFunk]

oh well I am still waiting for the stage recording that blows away the best out front mix I have ever heard, still no one has given me such a recording....

Chris Church

You've got to be kidding.  So now we have to come up with a stage source that blows away every audience recording ever made to prove you wrong?!?  When your original statement was "I personally do not know why ANYONE would run a onstage mic for a amplified performance"?!?  Don't you see how different those two premises are?!?  We've provided plenty of examples of why we would run onstage mics for amplified performances and get better results than the audience tape in that situation, but I don't think that anyone in their right mind would claim they have a recording that blows away every audience recording ever made, even if they really did. 

Your attempts to talk your way out of a box are getting weaker by the reply.  You should just admit defeat and take your medicine like a man.  I don't even want the mics.  In re-reading the thread, by the time you offered the mics, you had already started backtracking and said that the tape had to have all of the indstruments in the PA, which was not the case for my recording, so keep your mics. but please, just end the charade.

[grider]

we're just talking two different languages, or perhaps the same language but about two different ideas in this thread it seems; a front of house sound engineer is basically saying that in a good sounding room with a great mix a recording made in the sweet spot can't be beat, and I would probably agree with that; and us tapers are saying that in a shitty sounding room or a room with nowhere to stand or a really loud room or even a good sounding room with a shitty mix, then taping closer to the source, by on stage or stage lip placement, can't be beat; I *think* we can all agree on that; the disagreement seems to arise regarding preferences about *taping in a good sounding room with a good mix and the sweet spot is available*, in which tapers often would often still choose the stage or stage lip and, understandably, an experienced sound engineer like Chris who mixes for a living and stands in the sweet spot would always choose that sweet spot in the room to tape from instead, I see both viewpoints now