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Author Topic: 4 mic mixes from the AUD  (Read 16978 times)

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Offline Nick's Picks

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4 mic mixes from the AUD
« on: August 07, 2007, 05:29:56 PM »
ok..i've been there / done that w/my various gear over the years.  Several times w/the R4.

now...matrixes aside. 
and, getting to mic a band like a pro aside (like setting up mics around a group of musicians..etc)

why in the world do you folks use 4 mic mixes from the audience?
I see this a lot in the Panic tapers crowd.  I've listened to them.
not impressed, at all. 

someone point me to a 4 mic AUD recording that is hands down, superior to any of the HQ 2chan versions of the same show?


Offline grider

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2007, 05:34:34 PM »

someone point me to a 4 mic AUD recording that is hands down, superior to any of the HQ 2chan versions of the same show?


STS9 12-31-04, 4 X 483, hung from the balcony, it on archive.org, I'd be surprised if you did not agree it sounds better than a single pair of 483's placed anywhere in the room would sound
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 05:54:13 PM by grider »

Offline Shawn

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2007, 05:40:18 PM »
this was easily the oddest 4 mic config I ever did, but for some reason it worked out amazingly well IMO. I'd put it up against ANY source from that show. I was one of about 6-7 other rigs on the same stand. I can also assure you that the individual sources were both inferior in every way to the final mix.

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=502479
« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 05:46:22 PM by Shawn »

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2007, 05:44:55 PM »
1. was there another pair of 481s near yours?
2. i'm downloading the MMW show, but was there any 481 source or 51 source near your MMW recording for me to compare to ?

coming up w/a good recording from 4 mics does not make the technique superior (to me), but thank you ...none the less.

I've got some MK4 (ORTF) c422 (XY or Blumlein) 4chan stuff I'll see if I can't dig up.

Offline Shawn

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2007, 05:49:39 PM »
there was another taper running AKGs on the same stand I believe the were 480s (but may have been 460s). I don't know if he was doing cards or hypers.

I wouldn't argue the technique is some how inherently superior. I do think that in some situations it can yield superior results, and given the opportunity to choose in post whether the results are superior I see reason not to try if you have the ability and don't mind lugging the extra gear.

Offline Craig T

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 05:52:54 PM »
having listened to most (if not all) of the recent WSP tour, I'd say CFox's mixes have sounded consistently great.  I can't say they've been the best recordings of any given night, because I rarely d/l more than 2 sources.  There should be a ton of comps from the WSP tour - I've seen photos of all those trees.

I also record a lot with SonicSound since he's in my area and what I've heard has been great - sometimes better than what I do with my 2-ch setup.  I think what the 4 mic mixes can give you is flexibility to shape the overall pickup pattern.  It looks like CFox and SS both tend to use one pair of directional and one pair of omnis or subcards (which are damn close to omnis).  In post, you can adjust how directional you want to go, plus the low end response of the omnis and subcards tend to be better than the directional mics, so you can also use the mix to add weight.  It's similar to running m/s, except you always have the option of trashing one set of mics if a straight 2-ch sounds best (I know SS's done this on a few occations).   Although I'm sure it's of secondary importance, by running 2 stereo pairs, you also have a better chance of getting 2 good channels if you have gear issues.
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Offline KLowe

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2007, 05:56:36 PM »
Disco Biscuits from Langerado this year.  It's on the archive.  Check the Neumann 4 mic mix source. 
Umphreys 2007-06-30 also

and FWIW.  I've had the best results running M/S as the "center" channels w/ the 43's running NOS on the sides.

Sounds sweet to my ears.  Better???..... well those are opinions.  I just like having the ability to run 4 channels to end up with two completely different sounding sources.

I actually work for a living with music, instead of you jerk offs who wish they did.

bwaaaahahahahahaha.... that is awesome!

stirinthesauce

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2007, 06:03:18 PM »
I no longer fool around with 4 mic mixes for amplified music, as multitracking fills my needs of gear sluttery, but when I do, it is with a directional center pair with omni outriggers.  This is especially true for anytime I'm doing orchestral or chamber concerts.

I don't see why folks do four mic mixes of 4 cards (different mic brands) or shotties and cards, or hypers and cards.  Doesn't make sense and I don't see where any sonic improvement could be had.  However, in a good acoustic enviroment with proper placement, and proper mix down after the fact, the 4 mics of directional main pair and outlying omni outriggers is going to excel.  Problem is, I don't think it gets done correctly, as you really can't feasibly run split omnis FOB.  However, healy method would work in a pinch (which is technically considered and A-B pair since it is at 180* and spaced 17cm).  And if properly mixed (which is another thing I don't think is getting done correctly) can yield superb results.  


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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2007, 06:05:44 PM »
It is not on LMA, and I did not circulate the individual sources, but I think a 4 mic mix I circulated from Los Lobos 2/8/07 fits this category.

I was at the SBD, and ran 414s (mid-side)/SD MP2 + 451s (DIN)/MOTU Ultralite.  The 414s source sounded better on its own than the 451s, but did not have the crispness/clarity in the high end.  The 451s alone, however, lacked the punch, full low end, and warmth of the 414s.  Together, the mix was a lot better than either individual pair.

Where I believe a lot of 4 mic AUD sources are lacking is a poor combination of sources/gear.  If on the same stand, I believe the center pair should be coincident - either M/S or XY - and the flanking pair should have sufficiently different and complimentary sonic characteristics that it is worthwhile to put in the extra effort.  

I have not liked the sound of many 4 mic near-coincident x2 sources (ORTF/DIN/NOS), which seemed 'muddy' or 'soupy' sounding to me and often seemed out of phase.  The jury is still out for me on split omni + near coincident, though I like split omni + coincident.


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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 06:11:28 PM »
"muddy and soupy" is my complaint.
outrigger omnis'...I can see how that works out.

Offline Shawn

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2007, 06:19:16 PM »
outrigger omnis'...I can see how that works out.
isn't this the majority of what people are doing with 4 mic mixes? I know it was almost all I ever did.

easy jim

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2007, 06:25:00 PM »
"muddy and soupy" is my complaint.

...in a good acoustic enviroment with proper placement, and proper mix down after the fact, the 4 mics of directional main pair and outlying omni outriggers is going to excel....if properly mixed (which is another thing I don't think is getting done correctly) can yield superb results.  

QFT.  I've found a coincident center pair and near-coincident outrigger pair may also yield excellent results.  But, a lot of that is also due to proper mixing, which may often include flipping the phase/polarity on one mic pair and/or adjusting the feeds relative to each other on your DAW's timeline before bouncing a mix.

Aside from phase issues/comb filtering, I think the muddy or soupy effect is often due to slight delay variations between sources, which may become multiple with 4 mics if not configured well/symetrically (for instance one outrigger is 3' from the center pair and 18' from the stage/PA, while the other outrigger is 2.5' from the center pair and 20' from the stage/PA).  Without paying attention to and, if necessary, fine-tuning delay issues, phase, etc., the end result often is lacking.

Offline muj

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2007, 06:46:02 PM »
ok..i've been there / done that w/my various gear over the years.  Several times w/the R4.

now...matrixes aside. 
and, getting to mic a band like a pro aside (like setting up mics around a group of musicians..etc)

why in the world do you folks use 4 mic mixes from the audience?
I see this a lot in the Panic tapers crowd.  I've listened to them.
not impressed, at all. 

someone point me to a 4 mic AUD recording that is hands down, superior to any of the HQ 2chan versions of the same show?



when you go 4 channels it takes skills and experience to mix the tracks recorded. There are several problems involved like  if the tracks "colors" don't blend. A properly mixed 4 channel or more recording will sound more balanced than the 2 track, add some compression and the 4 track version will be (just as good :-*) superior .

as lazy as i am ...i would run just record 4 seperate tracks ala quad recording, and run them through 4 channel playback at home. Now that's synergy.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2007, 07:33:43 PM »
now you're talking.
:)

I've often thought of going B format and putting together an ambesonic playback room.  Tetrahydral speaker array...B format decoder..the works.
I hear it is quite surreal from those who have done it.  Jeff Silberman comes to mind.  I believe he either used to, or did have an ambesonic playback system for listening to his soundfiled masters.
I'll post that question to the ambesonic yahoo group.  see what comes of it.

thanks for all your input fellas.
I'll stick w/2 chan.  i'm cheap.
:)

Offline boyacrobat

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2007, 09:38:28 PM »
matrixing does not work for you, cool
i love exploring the multiple sonic textures, its fun
not knowing what it sounds like is the start of it.
i rec 3 feeds at shows for exploration in this field.
love it.

g




Offline Chuck

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2007, 10:24:13 PM »
I've always thought two microphones is enough to record a PA system in the audience.

Now that four channel recording is becoming the norm, people are starting to experiment more. If you already have the 4 channel recorder bringing along an extra set of microphones just makes sense. I'm still not really sold on mixing the four channels together, but it does give you a bunch more options. So, the fact that we are seeing more 4 microphone recordings is not surprising.
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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2007, 10:50:14 PM »
Any sources out there where the sets of mics are really far apart...

Say - a stage pair...and a pair way back in the room?

So you have one really discrete, tight source - mixed with a diffused "color" source

Obviously these have to be brought into sync in post...


Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 12:16:25 AM »
having 2 pairs of HQ mics and only one recorder does make me want to do 4-mic mixes in the future. BUT all of the work of setting up 4-mics/recordersa isnt too luring. id like to ahve another 722 just to have 2 killer sources of a particular show, just to see the differences of each source :) but I doubt I would matrix them together.....

too much work for me for sure, especially since my back has been f'd up :) thats another reason I got the mbho active setup. the weight/size of actives/722 is very nice! and saves my back at the same time. and sounds great!
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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 12:51:50 PM »
Any sources out there where the sets of mics are really far apart...

Say - a stage pair...and a pair way back in the room?

So you have one really discrete, tight source - mixed with a diffused "color" source

Obviously these have to be brought into sync in post...

This is my favorite to do now when I have the chance. 

For example: http://www.archive.org/details/kd3-2007-07-11.akg452ck22-414.flac16

Offline live2496

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2007, 05:30:17 PM »
now you're talking.
:)

I've often thought of going B format and putting together an ambesonic playback room.  Tetrahydral speaker array...B format decoder..the works.
I hear it is quite surreal from those who have done it.  Jeff Silberman comes to mind.  I believe he either used to, or did have an ambesonic playback system for listening to his soundfiled masters.
I'll post that question to the ambesonic yahoo group.  see what comes of it.

thanks for all your input fellas.
I'll stick w/2 chan.  i'm cheap.
:)

I'm going to be modding the Live2496 software for the new 4MIC very soon. I've been studying up on ambisonics a bit over the last 8 months or so. At least trying to follow the sometime academic discussions on sursound.

Ambisonics seems the way to go because the capsules are placed close together. That way you don't have phase cancellation except at very high frequencies (ie. short wavelength). And this is why filtering is done to adjust for that.

Some samples are up on www.ambisonia.com which you can download with bitTorrent. Mostly classical and sound samples right now. For playback there is a free windows app called VVmic. You can listen to B-format files in stereo with that. Also, I have played with the java based player. And there are VST plugins.

It's all quite interesting. I hope to have some multi-speaker setup sometime to be able to do the playback. Apparently you can listen over 5.1 systems too.

<edit>
Here is the link for VVmic
http://mcgriffy.com/audio/ambisonic/vvmic/

Some info on playing back B-format files using 5.1 system.
http://www.ambisonia.com/wiki/index.php/Playing_DTS_files_on_5.1_Home_Theatre_systems
</edit>
 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 09:46:15 PM by live2496 »
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2007, 07:12:28 PM »
there are several software packages for doing surround mixes from B format.  Soundfield sells one w/their stuff.

How much fun would that be...
do have a really nice DAW/moniter setup ...record in B format and then mix everything down in post to whatever width / polar pattern / # of channels (up to 7.1 i believe) after the fact.

Offline F.O.Bean

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2007, 12:02:03 AM »
there are several software packages for doing surround mixes from B format.  Soundfield sells one w/their stuff.

How much fun would that be...
do have a really nice DAW/moniter setup ...record in B format and then mix everything down in post to whatever width / polar pattern / # of channels (up to 7.1 i believe) after the fact.


WAY too much work for a hobby IMO :) And im with you Nick, if you cant pull a sick tape with two mics, then 4 may be a waste of time/money ;D I do like the idea of having 2 diff sources, but the 744 doesnt have 4 mic pre's so............ :'( That would be killer. 483>744 and mbho>744, all with 7xx preamps. I also like the diea of running like 483>722 and mbho>acm/busman 671, for the backup purpose alone, but whats the point of running a backup when one has professional gear, ya dig?

I always liked the idea, but im too lazy andf my back is in too much pain, for a 4-mic mix. now SBD/DAUD is another story tho ;)
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Offline wbrisette

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2007, 05:31:12 AM »
I was doing 4 mic mixes long before most people here. Here is a show from 4.5 years ago that really is still one of my favorites:
http://www.archive.org/details/BHTM2003-02-14.shnf

The thing is people think more mics better sound, but that's not always the case. In fact I've never understood people using 2 cards and 2 hypers, or 4 cards. I've always used my "helicopter" as some people use to call it where I had the QTC-1 omnis spread 1 metre and had the SR-77's in the center of that. There was no work required in post, because I used the Wendt X4 field mixer to do everything right there and at the time only had the Tascam DA-P1 DAT recorder. Today with all my 8 channel recordings, I sometimes wish it was as easy as tossing up some mics and pressing record on the Tascam.  :)

It is one of those things where there are reasons to do it and I think they (4 mic mixes) can sound better, but you have to use the right combination of mics and the right configuration with the mics.

Wayne
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Offline cfox

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2007, 12:24:31 PM »

why in the world do you folks use 4 mic mixes from the audience?  not impressed, at all. 


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Offline grider

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2007, 12:34:32 PM »
Any sources out there where the sets of mics are really far apart...

Say - a stage pair...and a pair way back in the room?

So you have one really discrete, tight source - mixed with a diffused "color" source

Obviously these have to be brought into sync in post...



STS9 show I referred to earlier in the thread has the pair on the outside spread about thirty feet

Offline db

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2007, 12:37:01 PM »
I also record a lot with SonicSound since he's in my area and what I've heard has been great - sometimes better than what I do with my 2-ch setup.  I think what the 4 mic mixes can give you is flexibility to shape the overall pickup pattern. 

and don't forget the other *plus*: the gear-bag is nice and heavy.
db

Offline Josephine

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2007, 01:00:06 PM »
It is not on LMA, and I did not circulate the individual sources, but I think a 4 mic mix I circulated from Los Lobos 2/8/07 fits this category.

I was at the SBD, and ran 414s (mid-side)/SD MP2 + 451s (DIN)/MOTU Ultralite.  The 414s source sounded better on its own than the 451s, but did not have the crispness/clarity in the high end.  The 451s alone, however, lacked the punch, full low end, and warmth of the 414s.  Together, the mix was a lot better than either individual pair.

Where I believe a lot of 4 mic AUD sources are lacking is a poor combination of sources/gear.  If on the same stand, I believe the center pair should be coincident - either M/S or XY - and the flanking pair should have sufficiently different and complimentary sonic characteristics that it is worthwhile to put in the extra effort. 

I have not liked the sound of many 4 mic near-coincident x2 sources (ORTF/DIN/NOS), which seemed 'muddy' or 'soupy' sounding to me and often seemed out of phase.  The jury is still out for me on split omni + near coincident, though I like split omni + coincident.



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Offline kgreener

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2007, 01:17:25 PM »
fwiw I was picking Doug's brain about the R4 and 4-mic mixes a couple months ago and below is his response, which is very much along the same line of thinking as items previously mentioned by Wayne, Shawn, easyjim, 'sauce, etc:


Yes, it can be done with a few techniques and a lot of effort in setup and mixing.  90° hypers X-Y with 8 foot spread omnis, about 20dB down is one of a very few good techniques, but only if you can get good alignment. That is the trouble. Almost all 4 mic mixes destroy transient response, sounding somehow dull or lifeless at their very best. It also causes massive image smear in most cases. Selecting the right set of polar patterns, spacing and angles can make it possible to mix an omni or pair of omnis without severe degradation. I have never heard 4 directional mics mixed that was anything other than bad. It must be a main pair with omni flanking mics to open up the sound and flesh out the low end. I can do a TMOD Concert that will max out the R4 for use as a 4 mic unit (i.e no int mics and no pad but it will take a +14dB signal via the XLRs) if the demand is there or even by special request. These folks probably have low end to mid range systems that cannot recreate the recorded space accurately and hence listen only for flavors which does change with more mics but accurate 3D space reproduction suffers dramatically....peace...Doug

Offline momule

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2007, 01:30:38 PM »
This was recorded with Studio Projects B3's (LD) & Studio Projects C4's (both were Mic's > phatcables > R4)

Here is the LD source
Here is the SD source

Here is the 4 mic mixed in post via wavelab.   

To be fair the 4 mic mix has been mastered but I think you can still get an Idea. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 01:35:31 PM by momule »
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Offline nic

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2007, 02:25:42 PM »
http://www.archive.org/details/lt2003-01-22shnf

this is my favorite 4 mic mix that I have created.
there was no PA, so everything, including the limited vocals, were going through guitar amps onstage. (no drums obviously)

10' DFC from stage: AKG 391(ortf) + [MG m200(x/y)> PS2> AD20]> MOTU828> DP3
stage layout
keyboards----------------drums
guitar-----guitar/vox------bass

the recording has a very nice wide soundstage and you can place all instruments clearly!   ;D


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Offline Kindguy

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2007, 02:29:46 PM »
At the risk of looking stupid. Would you need a special home stereo to take full advantage of a 4 mic mix?
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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2007, 02:38:32 PM »
I have actually had good luck with 4 mic mixes. Here are my thoughts on the subject.

-As far as the mics used in the mixes, I'm a bit of a purest. I like to use the same brand mics throughout. My most recent endeavors have been with my Neumann u89i's and borrowed pair of Neumann km184's (fixed cardioid). Not to say I don't like other brands, I just like don't like the idea of mixing.

-I don't like to use the same pickup patterns and I configure my mics so that it is an all or nothing fashion. Basically, I don't use traditional mic placements like DIN, DINa, ORTF, etc. Actually, I never run those patterns because those techniques or theories are based on precise numbers/angles and, in our situation, we are almost never in a 'perfect equilateral triangle' with the stacks or source. That is a whole other subject in itself. Anway, I positioned the mics so that neither source would sound good on its own, but in a mix the 2 would compliment each other.

-For WSP 04-15-07, I ran the km184's XY at like 60 or 70 degrees. They were pointed well inside the stacks. I wanted a tight sound from the km184's by picking up as much of the stacks as possible with as little of the room sound as possible. As for the u89i's, I ran them about 1.5' apart, angled wide, with subcards. My intentions were to pick up as much of the room acoustics as possible and at the same time capture School's bass. As I thought, the km184 source picks up the PA system, but leans more towards a mono recording. The u89i source sounds more like an ambient room recording. I would not be happy listening to either on there own, they're both lacking. Together however, it is one of the best, if not the best AUD recording I've made. You clearly hear the attack from the PA and the decay through the room.

-I always mix the sources in post. I don't EQ, just mix.

That is all for now. I have other things to do.  ;D
 


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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2007, 02:38:51 PM »
not if it's mixed down to stereo, which they almost all are. I have seen some 5.1 surround mixes out there, and those require a surround system.

5.1 surround sound is something I'd like to do with some of the matrix recordings I've done. I just don't have the $$$ for the software or a suround system worth playing them on. My 2 channel system is far superior. One day if I get a nice surround system and the software hopefulyl I can go back and remix some of the old matrixes into 5.1 or 7.1 or whatever.

I can totally imagine being able to create a 7.1 surround matrix mix that would make you feel like you are in the front row....
80/20 (SBD/AUD) mix on the front two channels
60/40 (SBD/AUD) mix on the middle two channels
30/70 (SBD/AUD) on the rear two channels.
50/50 (SBD/AUD) to the sub.

Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2007, 04:12:23 PM »
I think Charles' reply said it all. Why would you not want more fexability in your recordings. So what if you only use one source...I would have killed for the ability to run both hypers and cards at Oak Mtn. '02 nevermind Hypers and subs or omni's (as it is I ran Cards and wound up with mud). I think the real issue here is that people mix their 4 ch recordings to suit their ears and on their systems, not your's (whoever the hypothetical "you" may be). I've run into this myself doing PP M/S. Some found my NYE discs too bright (in general I'm thinking the home theater AVR running group..nothing wrong with that of course). On my systems they sound perfect.
Hell Charles and I have been trying to work out 6ch..the more the merrier. I'd always rather have more options in the final mix than less, even if I only wind up using 2 ch. On the other hand my next goal is to make a true 5.1 recording of a show when Badger is finally ready. Not SBD and aud but 2 rear subs, 2 front hypers, a center card, and upward facing omni for the .1 I know it can be done!
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline pilgrims622

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2007, 05:29:46 PM »
why in the world do you folks use 4 mic mixes from the audience?
I see this a lot in the Panic tapers crowd.  I've listened to them.
not impressed, at all. 

Seeing as Charles and myself(I know there are a few others) are basically the only 2 consistently running 4 mic mixes for Panic then I would assume you are talking about us.  I use 4 mics from the audience because I have the ability to.  I record to 4 mono channels then make 2 different stereo recordings in post.  99% of the time m/s is one of those stereo pairs and 1% of the time it's blumline.  When listening to each source I usually feel like one of the sources is lacking compared to the other.  When I combine them then it really sounds as if the gaps get filled up.  As others have stated, the mixing is the hardest part.  I will usually drop the dB level of one source significantly and then have to adjust the milliseconds of one source so they align up as best as possible.  This usually drives me crazy as I sit around and test many different options for hours before I find something that sounds good to my ears.  When I think it sounds as good as it can then I will mix it altogether.  In the end, like Stagger said above, I really am mixing for myself.  Yes, I do share my sources on the internet for everyone to download so they can make the decision for themselves if they like it or not.  To me, I really dont care if anyone thinks the shows I mix together sound like shit.  I am happy with how they sound and in the the end that is all that really matters as I record for my ears and not 'yours'.  If you don't like 'my' source then you usually have many more to choose from in the Panic crowd.  That is the beauty of the internet and many tapers these days.  Download, listen, keep/delete and repeat!
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2007, 09:01:29 PM »
nothing personal dp....
when I snagged your 7-28 copy, I was all horny for it...4 neumanns...Mmmmmm....
but on my system is was lacking...to me.  All messy sounding.  No high end, none of that splashy neumann sound that I really like.  I trust my living room system is not misleading and holds up very true to the source.

And after seeing your rig, all I can dream of is blumlein w/those mics!!!  thats got to be juicy.

I'm not doubting the fun factor of being able to run multiple rigs, but I just dont see / hear any major sonic benefits from it.  based on my own trials and errors, and the other stuff I've listened too.

as for you and Charles..., you are not the only 4 channel guys I get downloads from.  all the folks here have big hard-ons for it too.  I shared the excitement a few years back when I did it for a summer, but my own personal tastes just enjoy the accuracy of a well executed 2chan recording.

Now, as for the "special stereo for 4 channel"...that was referring to ambesonic 4 channel.  different animal. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 09:04:51 PM by Nick's Picks »

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2007, 09:24:44 PM »
I think the real issue here is that people mix their 4 ch recordings to suit their ears and on their systems, not your's (whoever the hypothetical "you" may be).

The issue is very few if any people are using decent studio monitors to mix. They use either cheap monitors or computer speakers. Neither of these provide a decent reference system to mix on. I think a lot of these mixes would benefit from a good mixing system.

Wayne
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Editing: QSC RMX2450, MOTU 2408 MK3, Earthworks Sigma 6.2

Offline pilgrims622

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2007, 09:30:14 PM »
when I snagged your 7-28 copy, I was all horny for it...4 neumanns...Mmmmmm....

If you would like each individual source(ak40(din)>744 and ak50/ak20>v3>744), then I will be happy to send those to you.  That way you can have 2 different 2 channel sweet neumann sources  >:D

And after seeing your rig, all I can dream of is blumlein w/those mics!!!  thats got to be juicy.

Blumlein sounds unreal with the ak20s giving the right circumstance.  I dont run them that much mainly because of the taping situations I deal with.   The times I have run it I have had wonderful results except 1-2 times because of talkers.
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Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2007, 09:33:28 PM »
I think the real issue here is that people mix their 4 ch recordings to suit their ears and on their systems, not your's (whoever the hypothetical "you" may be).

The issue is very few if any people are using decent studio monitors to mix. They use either cheap monitors or computer speakers. Neither of these provide a decent reference system to mix on. I think a lot of these mixes would benefit from a good mixing system.

Wayne

Charles' system is fine. I'm pretty sure that mine will do for my M/S mixes (see below) I think part of the problem is that many of the folks that are running these rigs have BETTER systems than 90% of the crowd (Nick and his ML Stats, which are traditionaly very rough on any live recordings, nonwithstanding).
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2007, 09:50:52 PM »
I think Charles' reply said it all. W

what, laughing at me ?
aaahhh, thats nothing new.  I hear that all the time.
;-0

Offline stantheman1976

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2007, 11:40:24 PM »
This was recorded with Studio Projects B3's (LD) & Studio Projects C4's (both were Mic's > phatcables > R4)

Here is the LD source
Here is the SD source

Here is the 4 mic mixed in post via wavelab.   

To be fair the 4 mic mix has been mastered but I think you can still get an Idea. 
This sounds like an occasion where it works well.  One source sounds more bass heavy and the other source sounds a bit more open and has more high end so they compliment each other when mixed properly.

Offline coloartist

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2007, 01:13:19 AM »
 ;D
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Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2007, 09:24:26 AM »
Listening to Charles' 7/28/07 discs and they sound just fine to me. I basically lose the subs when I turn of the Depth but when I leave it on it just adds another bottom octave with no other perceptible change in the sound...perfectly in phase. I'm waiting on the B&K source to show up but it seems to have a seeding problem.
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2007, 12:13:40 PM »
Quote
Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre>Rogue 88 [KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

When are getting a playback system?  >:D
mk4>Kwon/din a/din>kc5>cmc6>kindkables XLR>788T
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Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2007, 12:56:40 PM »
Quote
Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre>Rogue 88 [KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

When are getting a playback system?  >:D

Huh? No comprende? ???
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline pilgrims622

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2007, 01:18:21 PM »
Quote
Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre>Rogue 88 [KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

When are getting a playback system?  >:D

Huh? No comprende? ???

I believe Bennett was being very sarcastic.  Should be a 'you' between 'are' & 'getting'. 
Neumann km140
Sound Devices 722

Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2007, 01:26:52 PM »
Ahhhh.. thanks DP.. I typically need a translator for Bennett but that's uusually my fault  ;D
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline coloartist

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2007, 02:27:21 PM »
Did you not see a  >:D ? I believe that is a Devil.  :laugh: Yeah I guess I missed a "you"
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Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2007, 04:07:45 PM »
Well, in any case, I'll work on getting something truely worthy of playing those 4ch tapes in the near future >:D ;D
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2007, 09:07:40 PM »
well...
whatever floats your boats I suppose.
I'm happy that you folks are doing these 4channel things.  It seems there are a lot of factors in doing it right, and I have yet to hear anything that is *sublime* and worth the hassle and expense.
but..thats me.
I have not listened to any of Charles' recent stuff, so I'll have to download some from shows we were at together to see if its heads and tails above mine or Carls.
Hey...I'd love to have my mind changed. 

I still think the only multiple channel stuff worth while is either SBD/AUD matrixes, flanking omnis w/a coincident pair in the middle, and B-format from a soundfield (where all 4 caps are coincident and there is no phase to deal with).

I rather like the idea of a DIN or NOS pair w/a single omni in the middle.  Seems like that would be far more balanced sounding.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 09:09:18 PM by Nick's Picks »

Offline Brian

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2007, 11:52:05 AM »
coincident pair(xy/ms/blumlein) in the center (for focus) and flanking split omnis or sub-cards (for space)

or omni / sub card / sub card / omni split acorss with ~20' from omni to omni

i really can't imagine how two centered, non-coincident pairs could sound good without work in post.  my best results with four microphone mixes were the methods used above. 

ymmv

Offline Todd R

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2007, 06:02:05 PM »
I rather like the idea of a DIN or NOS pair w/a single omni in the middle.  Seems like that would be far more balanced sounding.

I'm a bit late to the party on this thread, but I'll add my 2cents anyway.  I think most of the points I could make on 4ch aud work have already been made by Wayne, easyjim, stirin', etc.

Overall though, generally what I'm personally hoping for with a 4mic mix is the spaciousness and big soundstage I get with split omnis, but with the soundstage detail of coincident/near-coincident cards.  Personally, I'm done with split omnis only -- tried many times over the years, and I just don't like the lack of soundstage detail that results with split/j-disk omnis.

I agree with Nick though that more often than not, I don't prefer the 4mic stuff -- but I'm still trying.  Given what I want from 4ch, the single omni in the middle won't do it -- I want that big split-omni soundstage.  Since I haven't been getting what I want out of 4ch consistently, I've been running the center cards in near-coincident (DIN) so I will at least like my 2ch mix.  I need to just take the risk though and run the center cards XY, since I agree that will mix best.

I will say that of the many attempts I've made, there have only been a couple times I like the 4ch mix more than the 2ch mix.  One for Trey, where there just wasn't enough low end in the mix to make it satisfying, and the omnis mixed in fixed that.  The other for my Sunday Panic at RR this year, mixing my Milab cards with DPA 4060 omnis.  I liked my 4ch Saturday mix about equal to the 2ch Milabs, but decided to spread the 4ch recording given the mixing effort I put in.  I did dig Charles' 4mic RR mixes too.
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Offline NOLAfishwater

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2007, 10:44:03 PM »
Thank you 4 channel tapers!

I have been a big fan of Bennett & Charles recordings. To me, they produce the best recordings out there on Panic tour. I have to say though, that Sonic Sound & OFOTD's source from Philly fuggin smoke. It was the first time I had dl either of their recordings and was very impressed.  Kudos to both of you. Personally, I like the ease of use of my 2 channel PMD660 and wouldn't want to have to do anymore post work. I can't imagine having to mix down every recording.  Many thanks to all the 4 channel pioneers out there that are making it happen. Keep up the great work guys!

Offline Stagger

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2007, 09:47:09 AM »
Thank you 4 channel tapers!

I have been a big fan of Bennett & Charles recordings. To me, they produce the best recordings out there on Panic tour. I have to say though, that Sonic Sound & OFOTD's source from Philly fuggin smoke. It was the first time I had dl either of their recordings and was very impressed.  Kudos to both of you. Personally, I like the ease of use of my 2 channel PMD660 and wouldn't want to have to do anymore post work. I can't imagine having to mix down every recording.  Many thanks to all the 4 channel pioneers out there that are making it happen. Keep up the great work guys!

Bennett typically records 2ch, not that there is anything wrong with that ;D. DP on the otherhand, has put up some mighty fine 4ch stuff.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 09:49:03 AM by Stagger »
Selling: SD 722
Current Setup: AKG c34 > S42 > Kimber Hero > DR-680

Nikon D7000, SB-700, Nikkor 18-200 f3.5-5.6, Nikkor 50 f1.8D, Sigma 10-20 f3.5, and way too many do-dads to list...

Playback: Denon DVD3910>Audio Experiences Symphonies Tube Pre [Electro-Harmonix/12AX7 Gold Pin ]>Rogue 88 Amplifier [Genalex Gold Lion KT88s, ultralinear]>Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home & Martin Logan Depth i - AudioQuest Jaguar and CV-8 DBS cable, Panamax M7500Pro conditioner.

Offline Shawn

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2007, 10:03:13 AM »
quick question are there any techincal resources that explain why a coincident pair works better than near coincident with out rigger omnis? I'm not sure If I understand why that is true, or at least why people think that is true.

I'm also curious if anyone has any technical knowledge or at least an opinion regarding two pairs of direction mics in the same config placed on top of each other... say Earthworks sr77 (DIN) + schoeps mk4 (DIN) on the same stand with one set of mics clamped directly below the other. It might seem like a weird thing to do, but with mics that compliment each other really well it could be interesting.

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2007, 07:43:10 PM »
quick question are there any techincal resources that explain why a coincident pair works better than near coincident with out rigger omnis? I'm not sure If I understand why that is true, or at least why people think that is true.

I'm also curious if anyone has any technical knowledge or at least an opinion regarding two pairs of direction mics in the same config placed on top of each other... say Earthworks sr77 (DIN) + schoeps mk4 (DIN) on the same stand with one set of mics clamped directly below the other. It might seem like a weird thing to do, but with mics that compliment each other really well it could be interesting.

I wonder that too Shawn. Could work out great. Like Schoeps mk4's DIN and AKG 483's or MBHO ka500hn's DINa.
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2007, 08:31:18 PM »
 ::)

Like blended coffee, or blended whiskey...
not as good as the real thing.

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2007, 08:34:06 PM »
quick question are there any techincal resources that explain why a coincident pair works better than near coincident with out rigger omnis? I'm not sure If I understand why that is true, or at least why people think that is true.

I'll take a stab in the dark with a guess/theory based on my listening/experiece:

There will already be an exaggerated difference between between the L and R of the split omni pair (vis-a-vis coincident or near-coincident) in the time the sound reaches each mic when the source is not 'centered.'  When summing a stereo mix from a split omni pair with a center pair, it seems logical that a coincident pair in the center will minimize any additional 'soupiness' or lack of detail/definition in the stereo image upon mixdown.  Rather than the ears/brain processing the overlap of two distinct stereo images when the center pair is near-coincident (left-ctr left-ctr right-right), a coincident center pair makes it one large stereo image with a crisp/defined center as well as distinct left and right (left-ctr pair-right).

If a loud sound comes from one side of the stage/PA stack, you will have 3 differing lengths of time between when the sound reaches the capsules of the 4 mics (fig. 1), with the sound reaching the capsules at the same time for the center pair.  With a near-coincident center pair, there will be 4 different lengths of time (fig. 2) with the center pair approximating the regular difference perceived by the a set of human ears from one location, and the omni outriggers as an extended/exagerrated difference super-imposed on top of that.

I think of the differences in sound resulting from the varying differences to be similar to separate, closely matching but not exact, 2 dimensional outlines of an image of a 3 dimensional object...like the object's silhouette and it's shadow(s).  In the case of of a coincident center pair, to me it is like the omni outriggers make up the primary silhouette and shadow, which can become a blurry double image by themselves if not precise.  A coincident center pair in this context would be analagous to giving the shadow (or spaces between the outlines) an extra clear line/limit (fig. 3), thereby adding some crispness and definition to the image.  A near-coincident pair, other other hand, would be like having a couple similar, but slightly different, lines between the silhouette and shadow, like shading (fig. 4).  

I believe it boils down to phasing issues that are more likely to occur with an exagerrated delay between the outriggers once summed with a similar, but slightly different, delay between the center mics as well.  With a coincident center pair, this additional variable is minimized and easier to for the ears/brain to ignore or treat as one large image instead of two images superimposed upon one another.


(fig. 1 - coincident center pair: m/s, XY, Blumlein)

PA-STAGESTAGESTAGESTAGE-PA
          ----------------
          ----------------
     O             MS             O


(fig. 2 - near-coincident center pair: DIN, DINa, ORTF, NOS, etc.)

PA-STAGESTAGESTAGESTAGE-PA
          ----------------
          ----------------
     O           OR_TF           O


(fig 3. - coincident center pair)
__
\\ \
 \\ \
  \\ \
   \\ \

(fig 4. - near coincident center pair)
___
\\`\
 \\`\
  \\`\
   \\`\
« Last Edit: August 14, 2007, 08:46:19 PM by easyjim »

Offline SonicSound

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2007, 08:39:24 PM »
My amateur experience...

Four channels just give you two more channels.  You can keep them, mix them, or trash them.  I have found the whole experience very hands on educational in discerning how different microphone patters and configurations behave in a sonic field.

As CraigT pointed out there haven been some occasions where I have just stuck with two channels and in others the 4mic mix just provided both a spectral and image performance which was an improvement over the two channel option.

I due agree that in some/majority of poor PA scenario that the 4mic is not they way to go with my rig (I would stick with the 2-channle tube 41V’s).  I have not figured out if there is phase/comb filtering issue in some cases (out of my current knowledge base).

My experience this summer at out door venues running 4-channels has been mixed.  With small festivals J-Disc omni’s w/ dina hypers has been the way to go IMO and with my gear.  Large/full base outdoor shows I have enjoyed that the results from running Blumlien w/ hypers dina.

Onstage/Stage Lip – Hands down 4-mic mix is sweet!

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2007, 09:08:59 PM »
If a loud sound comes from one side of the stage/PA stack, you will have 3 differing lengths of time between when the sound reaches the capsules of the 4 mics (fig. 1), with the sound reaching the capsules at the same time for the center pair.  With a near-coincident center pair, there will be 4 different lengths of time (fig. 2) with the center pair approximating the regular difference perceived by the a set of human ears from one location, and the omni outriggers as an extended/exagerrated difference super-imposed on top of that.
that really makes sense. I never though of it like that, but now I can see now how a coincident pair might cut down on the mish mash of the images.
 +T

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2007, 09:12:24 PM »
::)

Like blended coffee, or blended whiskey...
not as good as the real thing.
maybe it's more like fine wine. French Bordeaux is often a blend of up to five varieties of grapes (Cabernet sauvignon, Cabernet franc, Merlot, Malbec and Petit verdot). :P

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2007, 11:09:49 PM »
::)

Like blended coffee, or blended whiskey...
not as good as the real thing.
maybe it's more like fine wine. French Bordeaux is often a blend of up to five varieties of grapes (Cabernet sauvignon, Cabernet franc, Merlot, Malbec and Petit verdot). :P

As in cooking, simplicity is beauty; a blend, or a complicated dish, is a lot easier to screw up than it is to get right.

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #62 on: August 15, 2007, 12:04:05 AM »
::)

Like blended coffee, or blended whiskey...
not as good as the real thing.
maybe it's more like fine wine. French Bordeaux is often a blend of up to five varieties of grapes (Cabernet sauvignon, Cabernet franc, Merlot, Malbec and Petit verdot). :P

As in cooking, simplicity is beauty; a blend, or a complicated dish, is a lot easier to screw up than it is to get right.

GREAT point. I still think having 2 diff setups would be cool just to compare how each setup has its own characteristics. I am gonna get a Busman fr2-le when I can afford it just to have a whole nother setup when I feel like lugging everything to a show/festival 8) I doubt I would matrix the two together, but having 2 diff setups is cool in its own right. Having the option to switch things around liek that is also cool With having 483's and MBHO cards/hypers and a 722 and a busman fr2-le, the options are endless 8)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #63 on: August 15, 2007, 07:30:02 AM »
I can certainly see the educational value of running 4 mics, and getting to "know" how they sound in various situations.

I guess I covered that ground w/years of running my mics various way in multiple set shows where I could tear down and re-configure. 

i'm sure my lack of mixing experience is what fudged up all my multiple mic mixes.
I like the K.I.S.S. approach.

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #64 on: August 15, 2007, 11:08:25 AM »
GREAT point. I still think having 2 diff setups would be cool just to compare how each setup has its own characteristics. I am gonna get a Busman fr2-le when I can afford it just to have a whole nother setup when I feel like lugging everything to a show/festival 8) I doubt I would matrix the two together, but having 2 diff setups is cool in its own right. Having the option to switch things around liek that is also cool With having 483's and MBHO cards/hypers and a 722 and a busman fr2-le, the options are endless 8)

Bean -- if you have any thoughts of doing 4ch work, you might want to pick up a recorder with a digital output like the HD-P2 or PMD-671 instead of the FR2LE.  Then you can use the digital output of that recorder to provide the clock for the 722.  That way both sources are synced off the same clock and making a 4ch mix is a snap.
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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2007, 12:32:54 AM »
So... I've been watching this thread but was not really going to join in.  I've been playing with some 4mic mixes for a while now and I would say about 50% of the time I've liked the 4mic combo more than either 2mic alone.  However, it is pretty subjective and I could have a different opinion depending on the playback system.  I mix for my ears and systems.   I've mostly used my big ass markbar and run the 480s in the middle with TL omnis split on the sides.  I was not really going for the much wider split omni sound stage but I really like the mix of the 2 brands of mics.  Splitting out the Omnis in most situations is just impractical and sort of like waiting for a disaster unless you have someone guarding the stands.

What got me to post was that I just received 2XSabraSom 4mic bars.  I'm taking off the mic mounts and keeping the bar and putting the SabraSom shocks I already have on the bar.  They work perfectly to mount my 489 guns.

Anyway... I have not tried it yet... But mentioned the bar to another taper who noticed that I had the 4X480s and he suggested taking the 4mic bar and setting up the middle pair in my favorite pattern and then taking the second two 480s and basically adding another 10 degrees on each side.  He had ran that config with Nak1000s for many years and loved it.  Says you keep the sound of your mics, pretty much eliminate any phase issues, and get a much wider sound stage.

Any opinions on this?  I'm going to try it when a good situation presents itself.  He made me pretty curious about the setup.


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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2007, 12:52:41 AM »
GREAT point. I still think having 2 diff setups would be cool just to compare how each setup has its own characteristics. I am gonna get a Busman fr2-le when I can afford it just to have a whole nother setup when I feel like lugging everything to a show/festival 8) I doubt I would matrix the two together, but having 2 diff setups is cool in its own right. Having the option to switch things around liek that is also cool With having 483's and MBHO cards/hypers and a 722 and a busman fr2-le, the options are endless 8)

Bean -- if you have any thoughts of doing 4ch work, you might want to pick up a recorder with a digital output like the HD-P2 or PMD-671 instead of the FR2LE.  Then you can use the digital output of that recorder to provide the clock for the 722.  That way both sources are synced off the same clock and making a 4ch mix is a snap.

Indeed a great point Todd. I havent even thought about that :( Hmmm. I would mainly do the 4-channel stuff to hear the sources SEPERATELY tho. I honestly dont really plan on EVER matrixing the 2 seperate recordings together. I would just like to have 2 diff sources for some shows so i can hear how each setup sounds on its own and would most likely spread the recordings the same way. BUT you still bring up a great point. Especially if the good ole SBD/DAUD matrix ever comes about. I know I could matrix manually in WL 5's Audio Montage but having one source synched to the otehr would def make those SBD/DAUD matrixes ALOT easier. but to be hoenst, I ahvent doen a SBD/DAUD matrix in over 2 years so its not a huge concern. besides, that Busman fr2-le is TOOOOO damn tempting ;) I coould always get anotehr recordder just to do 4-channel matrixes I guess. And also, If given teh chance to do a SBD/DAUD matrix, I will NEVER be close nough to sync the two together anyway. the one place I could do SBD/DAUD matrix's(Mr. Smalls Theatre) the SBD area is at the VERY back of the room, and I record FOB about 100ft at leats in front of teh SBD, so syncing would be a great idea but not realistic in most cases. and sicne I never plan on matrixing the 2 diff DAUD sources, I guess I can just get the Busman fr2-le as planned 8)

Thanks for pointing that out regardless tho bud ;)

So I guess the fr2-le doesnt have a way to sync at all ??? not even a BNC connector or anything ehh? i guess I should check out the manual for the fr2-le and see some pictures ehh? ;)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
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Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

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Offline Todd R

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Re: 4 mic mixes from the AUD
« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2007, 11:09:04 AM »
You can't do syncing with the FR2le as far as I can tell.  If you're set on a busman mod though, you could get the busman Hd-P2 instead.  As to the SBD+AUD mixes, distance away from the board has nothing to do with it.  You're not mixing together thru a mixer at the venue, you'd be mixing in post.  So by syncing the clocks, all the samples will line up, you'll just have to find the common point to start them at (eg, find a snare hit near the beginning to line them up).  With your mics further back, the aud source will have more of a delayed start than the board mix, but once you'll line up the sources prior to mixing together, so the amount of this delay will not matter.

4ch is also good if you do onstage recording.  Center DIN/XY pair, and then some split omnis to add in, or use the additional two channels for spot mic'ing (like a keyboard that is far to the side or something else that might be low in the mix like percussion -- congos, tablas, etc).
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