Topic: ISO: 6-8 mic setup for field recording (in rooms AND outdoor)

[olli66]

hi guys,
I hope someone can help me out.
I am a video professional but my knowledge about audio is very limited. Most bands I record are happy with a basic sound setup but I want to invest and improve on that field.
So far I am only plugging in my 2ch Tascam recorder when there's a soundboard and for field gigs or recording sessions I use my AKG CK61 - Nbob - Tinybox - Tascam DR-2d setup but I always end up with a distant sound.
Often I record outdoor, bands with 4-5 members so 4-5 instruments plus 4-5 voices.
I was thinking of the Tascam DR-680 recorder and as many microphones as this thing fits (should be 8 if I read the description correctly...).
So in addition to my Tascam-AKG recorder I might buy this one. Any thoughts on this?
What would a good mic setup be (they need to be windshielded, optional windshield is fine, too) to run with this DR-680? Also, what kind of cables or extensions do I need for wiring a group of 4-5 musicians that are standing not too far away from each other?
Besides postitioning the mics close to each instrument/mouth should I use my AKG mics for a "room" recording?
Yeah, I know...with this I would just somehow have the recording issue settled...then comes the mastering...but let's not talk about that (for now)...
thanks for any kind of help/advice

[hoserama]

FYI you'll need some sort of external a/d for the 7/8th channel on the 680. It only actually has six analog inputs, and then can do another pair with an external a/d.

[Bruce Watson]

DR 680 has 6 micpres (with phantom power). If you want eight, look at the Tascam HS-P82 or the SD 788t.

[2manyrocks]

Another possible approach is to record signal from each soundboard channel from its direct outs into your recorder or computer interface.  The issue with recording bands can be available tracks.  You can sync dr680s together for 12 channels.  Some boards will record all tracks directly into a computer.

[hoserama]

Good point--that would be the most consistent option if you really wanted to go pro--getting a full soundboard rig.

The problem is when you run into more digital boards, and you'll need to plug a laptop into it (with the right drivers) to record multitrack. Easier to do for the same places, but not as easy as walking into a regular analog mackie board and just tapping off 16 inserts/direct outs.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

DR 680 has 6 micpres (with phantom power). If you want eight, look at the Tascam HS-P82 or the SD 788t.

You can expand the DR-680 to have eight by adding an external mic pre that has digital S/PDIF outputs like our Mic2496 V2. It's fully portable - runs on  both 9Volt and rechargeable LiIon.

[Ultfris101]

Mic for each instrument/vocalist can get good results but managing it all can get hairy fast, especially if you're also trying to do video. Do you have helpers? I've been doing audio and video a lot lately but I'm almost always by myself so I need to limit variables where I can.

Have you considered putting a stereo pair of cards in front of the group (think about ORTF config), and then get a soundboard feed into the same recorder and/or setup another pair of cardioid mics further in the room to provide the ambient/natural sound of being there that can be lost being up close?

You can then mix the three sources as makes sense in post processing and have a few options to choose from and experiment with. This might be an easier starting point than trying to mic up each performer individually.

[hoserama]

DR 680 has 6 micpres (with phantom power). If you want eight, look at the Tascam HS-P82 or the SD 788t.

You can expand the DR-680 to have eight by adding an external mic pre that has digital S/PDIF outputs like our Mic2496 V2. It's fully portable - runs on  both 9Volt and rechargeable LiIon.

Not totally trying to undercut you here, but the 2496v2 is more expensive than the Tascam 680 itself. If you're not stealthing, the cost effective way would be to buy a second Tascam 680 and link them, giving you 12 channels at a cheaper price than the 680 + 2496v2 with 8 channels.

[Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)]

True!

[olli66]

thanks!
seen those before...way too expensive

DR 680 has 6 micpres (with phantom power). If you want eight, look at the Tascam HS-P82 or the SD 788t.

[olli66]

always appreciate your input, thanks!
looks like I am going for the DR-680
I will settle with 6 mics, room will be covered with my seperate Tascam+AKG mics
so I have 8 mics in total, should do
now I "just" need mics, any recommendation?
thanks again for your help!

Bruce has opened the vaults and my youtube videos seem to be part of the reason ;-)

DR 680 has 6 micpres (with phantom power). If you want eight, look at the Tascam HS-P82 or the SD 788t.

You can expand the DR-680 to have eight by adding an external mic pre that has digital S/PDIF outputs like our Mic2496 V2. It's fully portable - runs on  both 9Volt and rechargeable LiIon.

Not totally trying to undercut you here, but the 2496v2 is more expensive than the Tascam 680 itself. If you're not stealthing, the cost effective way would be to buy a second Tascam 680 and link them, giving you 12 channels at a cheaper price than the 680 + 2496v2 with 8 channels.

[hoserama]

You're trying to do onstage mic'ing of stuff? Or just trying to capture room sound? Guess I'm a bit confused what you're trying to do. If you really want a good clean multitrack, then you'll want to capture everything independently (just like how a soundboard works) and then mix in post. But sounds like you're trying to strategically place some room mics? In that case, probably a pair at stage lip, a pair at the soundboard, and then pull a matrix out on the soundboard.

[olli66]

onstage + room
I want the individual voices/instruments but you know me...room audio for the audience/atmosphere...a must

You're trying to do onstage mic'ing of stuff? Or just trying to capture room sound? Guess I'm a bit confused what you're trying to do. If you really want a good clean multitrack, then you'll want to capture everything independently (just like how a soundboard works) and then mix in post. But sounds like you're trying to strategically place some room mics? In that case, probably a pair at stage lip, a pair at the soundboard, and then pull a matrix out on the soundboard.

[Gutbucket]

Mic for each instrument/vocalist can get good results but managing it all can get hairy fast, especially if you're also trying to do video. Do you have helpers? I've been doing audio and video a lot lately but I'm almost always by myself so I need to limit variables where I can.

Have you considered putting a stereo pair of cards in front of the group (think about ORTF config), and then get a soundboard feed into the same recorder and/or setup another pair of cardioid mics further in the room to provide the ambient/natural sound of being there that can be lost being up close?

You can then mix the three sources as makes sense in post processing and have a few options to choose from and experiment with. This might be an easier starting point than trying to mic up each performer individually.

^^^
All that.

First, let's make sure you are maximally leveraging the gear you already have.

Are you recording the soundboard (SBD) to one stereo input on your Tascam DR2d and a microphone pair placed out in the audience (AUD) to the other stereo input, then mixing those together in an appropriate way afterwards?  If not, doing that may provide everything you are looking for and should be your next step. 

The SBD feed will provide the clarity and proximity that you find lacking in your AUD pair alone.  Recording a stereo output from the SBD is far easier to setup, and mix later, than attempting to close-mic all sources on stage yourself and record them separately.  All that close-mic'ing setup work beforehand and mixing work afterwards has already been done for you in the form of the stereo SBD feed.  Try to use that, and just add what's missing.

The AUD pair provides live audience ambiance, room sound, and stage sources not strongly included in the SBD intended for the PA.  As long as you know you will have access to a good SBD feed, try using a pair of spaced omnis for your AUD mics instead of cardioids.  The goal is to get from the AUD pair what you are not getting from the SBD feed and vice-a-versa.  The spaced omnis will actually sound more distant than your AKG cardioid pair when listened to on their own, but that's not a problem because the SBD feed will be providing the clear-proximity stuff.  The spaced omnis will do a better job of capturing all the stuff that's often not very well represented in the SBD if at all: the audience reaction, room sound, and the heavy bass stuff.   

It's mostly about good teamwork between the AUD and the SBD pair.  Managing those two audio sources while also doing video will be way, way easier than the much larger undertaking of trying to manage recording and mixing of a whole bunch of individual sources.  Make sure you are getting the most of what you can do simply and effectively, before overly complicating things.

[olli66]

thanks guys for the in depth help and advice
yes, when the band is "plugged" I record a 2ch soundboard mixdown and the room with my AKG card mics (I have two Tascam stereo records and place the room mics whererver they fit best (mist times near the soundboard is too much talking) but what I am really after is a possibility to record a band that plays an acoustic session, NO AMPS, no soundboard there
and yes, I have 2-3 helpers most time so my by now 8 cam setup (3 gopros and 2-3 GH2's on tripod and GH3 and GH4 for handfilming and if there's three helpers one less on tripod and another of the GH2's handheld) is manageable

Mic for each instrument/vocalist can get good results but managing it all can get hairy fast, especially if you're also trying to do video. Do you have helpers? I've been doing audio and video a lot lately but I'm almost always by myself so I need to limit variables where I can.

Have you considered putting a stereo pair of cards in front of the group (think about ORTF config), and then get a soundboard feed into the same recorder and/or setup another pair of cardioid mics further in the room to provide the ambient/natural sound of being there that can be lost being up close?

You can then mix the three sources as makes sense in post processing and have a few options to choose from and experiment with. This might be an easier starting point than trying to mic up each performer individually.

^^^
All that.

First, let's make sure you are maximally leveraging the gear you already have.

Are you recording the soundboard (SBD) to one stereo input on your Tascam DR2d and a microphone pair placed out in the audience (AUD) to the other stereo input, then mixing those together in an appropriate way afterwards?  If not, doing that may provide everything you are looking for and should be your next step. 

The SBD feed will provide the clarity and proximity that you find lacking in your AUD pair alone.  Recording a stereo output from the SBD is far easier to setup, and mix later, than attempting to close-mic all sources on stage yourself and record them separately.  All that close-mic'ing setup work beforehand and mixing work afterwards has already been done for you in the form of the stereo SBD feed.  Try to use that, and just add what's missing.

The AUD pair provides live audience ambiance, room sound, and stage sources not strongly included in the SBD intended for the PA.  As long as you know you will have access to a good SBD feed, try using a pair of spaced omnis for your AUD mics instead of cardioids.  The goal is to get from the AUD pair what you are not getting from the SBD feed and vice-a-versa.  The spaced omnis will actually sound more distant than your AKG cardioid pair when listened to on their own, but that's not a problem because the SBD feed will be providing the clear-proximity stuff.  The spaced omnis will do a better job of capturing all the stuff that's often not very well represented in the SBD if at all: the audience reaction, room sound, and the heavy bass stuff.   

It's mostly about good teamwork between the AUD and the SBD pair.  Managing those two audio sources while also doing video will be way, way easier than the much larger undertaking of trying to manage recording and mixing of a whole bunch of individual sources.  Make sure you are getting the most of what you can do simply and effectively, before overly complicating things.