Topic: P&S Camera reccomendations

[phanophish]

I'm looking for some P&S camera recommendations.

What I want is a Nikon D3s in a P&S.  Since that is not happening, I'm looking pretty hard at the Panasonic DMC-ZS7.  Seems to be a pretty solid point and shoot with great zoom range, good quality, fair low light, reasonable price.  So is there something else I should be looking at in the $350 range?  Video is not a prime consideration but would be nice.  For example The DMC-ZS5 is a very similar camera but you give up the GPS and AVCHD Lite video and for me the extra $50 is worth it for those features.  But I'd skip video if it meant better still performance, particularly low light.

I'm a pretty serious photographer (Nikon D300 and a stable of pro lenses) so know I'm making compromises, I want something that can be taken to all shows and still be a good travel camera without dragging my DSLR around.  I really don't keep my head in the P&S market so I'm looking for some help.

[Brian Skalinder]

With P&S, as with SLR, you really must compromise:  do you want low light performance or extended zoom range?

With a 4-12x zoom, you'll have a large optical zoom range at the expense of low light performance -- like the ZS7:  12x, but only f/3.3 - 4/9.  Note it isn't just the f/stop range that matters, but also how quickly the f/stop range changes as the lens zooms.  Alternatively, you can choose very good low light performance with a small zoom range -- like the LX3:  2.5x zoom, but f/2.0 - 2.8.  Same generally holds true for SLR lenses -- you don't typically see greater than 3x with good low light performance (i.e. f/2..

To an extent, constantly improving ISO helps tip the tables towards extended zoom, but the ISO performance in P&S cameras isn't all that great, generally.

Which is more important -- low light performance or big optical zoom range?  Answer that question, and I think you'll know which direction to take.  You have several options for each direction.  At least the Pan LX3 and Canon S90 for low light performance, and probably others.  I'm not entirely up to speed on large optical zoom P&S camera, but I imagine there are plenty of options.

[phanophish]

That's my dilemma.  I think I'm currently leaning towards the zoom versatility and giving up the low light performance.  With the small sensor the low light performance just won't be there so why not have the flexibility of the additional zoom range.  I looked a fair amount at the Canon G11 but it seems that the reviews I saw said it's sensor is actually a step down in ISO performance from the G10.  And for the $$ they want for the G11 it seems to make sense to look at the Micro 4/3s cameras because of their larger sensors.  I'm leaning towards a truly compact P&S with the DSLR available if I want real low light performance.  Looked a bit at the S90 as well but it seems the Panasonic had a little better performance.

[ashevillain]

At least the Pan LX3 and Canon S90 for low light performance, and probably others. 

As far as I know either of these 2 or the Canon G11 are the best choices. I have a G11 and I am not really that impressed with its performance in low light from a distance...but some people like it. I think the LX3 and S90 get better low light reviews but each has it's own drawbacks. Some people don't want a lens cap on their P&S (LX3) and others don't like the wheel on the S90. All 3 are a bit over your $350 budget unless you look for them used. S90 probably the cheapest but I haven't looked in while.

I am pretty close to getting rid of my G11 and getting a DSLR. The G11 doesn't fit into my pocket so it might as well be a DSLR as far as I'm concerned.

[rastasean]

if you have a d300 and the d3s is appealing, I think you know about photography.

I'm a nikon and panasonic fanboy so I think you're making the right decision.

If I had extra money to spend, I would get the dmc-zs3. I had this camera for about a month and lost it but I absolutely loved it and there are money threads discussing it on this board.

You and Brian make very good points...you will have to compromise about something so you should figure out if you want a camera that has a wide zoom, large aperture, shoots video, wide angle, etc.

I don't really care about MP since most images typically stay on the computer and a 5mp camera can do quite well for small prints.

I don't think too much (less than $300) should be spent on a point and shoot unless it has a lot of manual controls and a hotshoe--like the Panasonic LX3.

[ashevillain]

That's my dilemma.  I think I'm currently leaning towards the zoom versatility and giving up the low light performance.  With the small sensor the low light performance just won't be there so why not have the flexibility of the additional zoom range.  I looked a fair amount at the Canon G11 but it seems that the reviews I saw said it's sensor is actually a step down in ISO performance from the G10.  And for the $$ they want for the G11 it seems to make sense to look at the Micro 4/3s cameras because of their larger sensors.  I'm leaning towards a truly compact P&S with the DSLR available if I want real low light performance.  Looked a bit at the S90 as well but it seems the Panasonic had a little better performance.

I haven't seen any trustworthy reviews that say the G10 has better ISO performance than G11. DPreview basically says its a wash or slightly in favor of the G11. If you are looking at micro 4/3 you will probably be paying twice as much as the G11 so I don't see how that's a fair comparison.

[phanophish]

For what I'm looking for from this camera I think the Panasonic is feeling like the way to go.

The LX3 looks pretty nice as well, but once I get to the price range in the $400 - $450 range I just hesitate to drop that kind of cash on a smaller camera without really considering the Micro 4/3 format.  I'm seeing them in the $650 range for a simple kit and you really get a whole different level of performance because of the sensor size.  But then I'm back to some of the size drawbacks of the SLR.

I'm going to go and find somewhere I can play with the DMC-ZS7 & the LX3 side by side.  Seems to me the key difference for my purposes is the choice between a faster lens with more limited range of the LX3 and the "superzoom" of the ZS7 at the expense of the fast aperture.  It seems to me the sensor performance of the 2 cameras is very similar.  My gut is I'll go for the ZS7.  I'm simply not going to get the low light performance out of ANY point and shoot so why not maximize all the other functions.  I want a simple pocket-able camera to take on the road without the encumbrances of the DSLR, unfortunately that means compromising on performance.  I just want to have a camera that for typical tourist photo type use produces good results that I can carry with me all the time.  If it could do a good job with concert shooting that would be great, but I don't think any of the choices are really able to fill the bill in low light.

I just want more that is really possible given the limitations of current sensors.  I suspect in 5-10 years there will probably be a P&S that gets me there, but it is a ways away....

Thanks for all the good feedback.  You guys always have solid insights.

[rastasean]

For what I'm looking for from this camera I think the Panasonic is feeling like the way to go.

The LX3 looks pretty nice as well, but once I get to the price range in the $400 - $450 range I just hesitate to drop that kind of cash on a smaller camera without really considering the Micro 4/3 format.  I'm seeing them in the $650 range for a simple kit and you really get a whole different level of performance because of the sensor size.  But then I'm back to some of the size drawbacks of the SLR.

I'm going to go and find somewhere I can play with the DMC-ZS7 & the LX3 side by side.  Seems to me the key difference for my purposes is the choice between a faster lens with more limited range of the LX3 and the "superzoom" of the ZS7 at the expense of the fast aperture.  It seems to me the sensor performance of the 2 cameras is very similar.  My gut is I'll go for the ZS7.  I'm simply not going to get the low light performance out of ANY point and shoot so why not maximize all the other functions.  I want a simple pocket-able camera to take on the road without the encumbrances of the DSLR, unfortunately that means compromising on performance.  I just want to have a camera that for typical tourist photo type use produces good results that I can carry with me all the time.  If it could do a good job with concert shooting that would be great, but I don't think any of the choices are really able to fill the bill in low light.

I just want more that is really possible given the limitations of current sensors.  I suspect in 5-10 years there will probably be a P&S that gets me there, but it is a ways away....

Thanks for all the good feedback.  You guys always have solid insights.

the lx3 has an aperture of 2.0 so it can do well in low light if you take advantage of everything it offers but I don't consider it a camera that easily fits in the pocket. I still carry it everywhere with me with a 16 gig card.

[guysonic]

Panasonic does seem to have low light ability, wide sharp 12x, excellent stabilization, and capable 720P video, along with a bunch of other features like telemacro.

While the newer versions have GPS, the recent older models have everything else and lower cost like the DMC-ZS3 I purchased earlier this year for only $230 usd from B&H with free shipping.



Also some may be interested in getting better audio along with their images discussed at: http://www.sonicstudios.com/videomic.htm

[Brian Skalinder]

I don't know that I'd call the ZS3's f/3.3 - 4.9 aperture range "low light ability".  (I wish manufacturers would designate at what point in the zoom range the lens changes f/stop.)  I suppose it's all relative to one's intended usage and expectations.  That said, for its feature set, the ZS3 is very reasonably priced.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

This camera isn't out for a few weeks, but looks very promising for concert photograpy. It opens up to f/2

I'm looking for a camera to keep with me, just in case a photo op occurs, and also something that I can bring into shows where my 50D isn't allowed (or I don't want to lug it).

CANON SD 4000

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=20024

[Gordon]

I love my G11 but I didn't buy it for concert photography.  that said close up it does pretty damn good in lowlight at 800 or even 1600 iso.  here are some examples

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gordonlw/sets/72157623366291939/



as cliff said it is bigger than a standard point and shoot but it can fit in a pocket (bigger pocket) and it fits very comfortably in my gear bag in the case I bought for it.  so no need for a separate bag when taping in my case.

as I said I didn't buy it for concerts but it's worked out pretty damn good when I've used it.  I bought it mostly for outdoors/hiking etc.  here is a nice one I did.  I'm shooting in raw/manual.  b&w done in lightroom.

[heikki]

hey there.

i went through this some months back ... and ended up buying an s90.  however, for me long zoom range was not a consideration.  from my experience p&s cameras just aren't up for it.  plus i mainly shoot landscapes, travel, gatherings, etc... and use wide lenses much more frequently.

the top contender for me was the LX3.  even then, late last year, it was on its way out an old model.  it's also a LOT bigger than the s90.  that being said, i think that the image quality from the LX3 is certainly better than the s90.  i was shopping for a pocket camera, not only a DSLR substitute, and the LX3 was just too big. 

i looked very briefly at the micro 4/3's cameras as well.  these though, would be more of a replacement for my DSLR rig than an addition.  if i didn't have my DSLR outfit i would go with one of these, but if i am going to carry a micro 4/3 camera i might as well carry my DSLR.  one of the guys in my office has the GF-1, and it really takes some killer great photos.  the zoom lens isn't all that, but with the pancake it's a nice setup and not TOO big.  there are some cheaper ones as well.  the E-PL1 for instance, but that thing just feels cheap to me.

a few s90 pictures, just for fun:

my dog at 70mph, dressed as a spider for halloween:

my garage about to collapse, luckily only an effect of the lens:

railroad earth:

[Brian Skalinder]

I don't know if I'd say the LX3 was, or is, on its way out, given I don't know of another compact camera offering similar performance in a similar price point and size.  The S90 is both better and worse, depending on one's priorities -- they really suit different purposes, I think.  Both great digital cameras, as far as compacts go.

Anyway, here's a good flickr set comparing the LX3 / S90 physical size.  For sure, the LX3 is notably larger, though for my purposes as long as I can easily carry it in a case on my belt, I'm happy.

[Roger_D]

This camera isn't out for a few weeks, but looks very promising for concert photograpy. It opens up to f/2

I'm looking for a camera to keep with me, just in case a photo op occurs, and also something that I can bring into shows where my 50D isn't allowed (or I don't want to lug it).

CANON SD 4000

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=20024

Now, that's very interesting.  I got an SD780 -- also ELPH-sized -- a couple months ago, just because it's so small and portable, and I really like it. Since it easily fits in a shirt pocket, I carry it with me almost everywhere now -- in fact I carry that and my cell phone in the same shirt pocket -- and that's something I've never done with any camera.  The pics and 720p video are pretty good in good light, but not so great in low light (although not really worse than my other P&S cameras). Getting an f/2 lens in a camera that size... I'm thinkin' Canon's got a winner here.