Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 2)

[CatScan]

tekdroid: I also looked at buying from B&H, but quickly moved on because they overcharge on shipping (no wonder they can keep their prices competitive).
I'm considering buying one via eBay (new, "buy it now") as some sellers have the decency to charge no more than the actual shipping costs (while still keeping the recorder competitively priced).

I've done a lot of Google searching and it seems that the "P" model only comes up in the Asia/Pacific region, and then mostly just as an announcements. The only place I've actually seen it for sale is at Expandore in Singapore where it costs US$ 316 to order, but it quickly became expensive with their shipping costs etc.
I think I'm just going with a regular "non-P" model. It's not worth it just to get the matt black (instead of glossy) and the silly "fur hat" (windshield).

Too bad, but very strange that the AC adapter is 110/120V only. Nowadays when it's so common that people travel devices like these often come with multi-voltage adapters. After all, it's not surprising that someone doing field recording, interviews etc. travel from one region to another.
I personally don't think it's worth the hassle of buying a converter, but rather buy a new AC adapter. Actually I think I already have a multi-voltage AC adapter from Sony for 3V which I've used with a MiniDisc recorder. If the polarity is the same and it outputs enough power I could use it with the PCM-M10.

[earmonger]

For what it's worth, the adapter has a yellow plug with + at the center and - on the rim.

output:
DC3V/cc3V 1A

I got mine from Beach Camera in New Jersey, $280, free US shipping. You might also try Adorama.

[fmaderjr]

Too bad, but very strange that the AC adapter is 110/120V only.

Do you really even need an A/C adapter given how long the batteries last and that it does not recharge internal batteries? I never use A/C adapters with my recorders unless needed to charge an internal battery.

I got mine on a deal like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-PCM-M10-Digital-Audio-Recorder-Matte-Black_W0QQitemZ300377158971QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVoice_Recorders?hash=item45efdfb53b
Then you get 8% cash back and 2% E-bay bucks for a net of under $250 shipped after rebates.. It's matte black too.

[CatScan]

Beach camera doesn't ship outside the U.S. according to their eBay page. I haven't looked at Adorama yet though.
I'm considering buying one from Freq city sound lighting staging for US$ 290 plus shipping. And to me here in Europe they only charge US$ 16 for shipping which is a more realistic number than the 60 or 80 bucks others charge!

The AC adapter I already have only outputs 500mA, so I'll have to get another one... if I need it.
Most likely though I'll just use two NiMH batteries and a normal battery charger.

[mloewen]

I always forget which way  the micro card goes Too. It fits either way.

 My M10 has had a couple of times when it acted weird.It was on record but levels didn't show.It was turned up all the way. I turned it off and when it came back was fine.

I know it tells you to format the card on the recorder not your computer. I don't know what that would look like if it was a problem with formatting a card?  Probably just not read it.

[Grey Area]

I'm considering buying one from Freq city sound lighting staging for US$ 290 plus shipping. And to me here in Europe they only charge US$ 16 for shipping which is a more realistic number than the 60 or 80 bucks others charge!

Is that really worth it? I live in Germany and ended up buying my PCM-M10 locally instead. That $16 shipping in the auction is USPS 1st Class International - despite its glamorous name this is actually pretty much the cheapest, slowest and unsafest shipping method available. Expect to wait for weeks, and there is no tracking, so you will never know where the package is. And if it never shows up, no one will know where it disappeared. I only use it for really cheap stuff, or by mistake when I forgot to read the full auction description. :-)

The safer shipping methods (USPS Global Express etc.) for a package of this size will usually be around $30 to $40, in my experience. Add customs duties and import sales tax and you are close to European prices. And what is the warranty status of a US-bought Sony in Europe?

[aaronji]

Oh, never mind. Manual, p.36

I was putting it in upside-down. The label faces the back of the unit. 

Although it goes right in with the label up, like every other piece of microSD equipment I own...just...D'oh.

Well maybe this exchange will spare someone else this dopey "problem."

This cracked me up, because I did the same thing.  A brand new 8 GB and, when that didn't work, the 2 GB from my phone.  It will insert and lock upside-down, unlike with most card slots.  After I read your post, I thought it might be the same thing but I didn't want to embarrass you (or myself) by posting that.  Sitting at dinner with the wife, I decided I should PM you.  When I got home, though, you had posted your "solution"...So, d'oh right there with you!  In retrospect, it is a clever design (microSD one direction and Memory Stick Micro the other)...

I'm considering buying one from Freq city sound lighting staging for US$ 290 plus shipping. And to me here in Europe they only charge US$ 16 for shipping which is a more realistic number than the 60 or 80 bucks others charge!

Is that really worth it? I live in Germany and ended up buying my PCM-M10 locally instead. That $16 shipping in the auction is USPS 1st Class International - despite its glamorous name this is actually pretty much the cheapest, slowest and unsafest shipping method available. Expect to wait for weeks, and there is no tracking, so you will never know where the package is. And if it never shows up, no one will know where it disappeared. I only use it for really cheap stuff, or by mistake when I forgot to read the full auction description. :-)

The safer shipping methods (USPS Global Express etc.) for a package of this size will usually be around $30 to $40, in my experience. Add customs duties and import sales tax and you are close to European prices. And what is the warranty status of a US-bought Sony in Europe?

No doubt.  I have generally not saved much buying from the US, unless I go there to pick it up myself...

[tekdroid]

tekdroid: I also looked at buying from B&H, but quickly moved on because they overcharge on shipping (no wonder they can keep their prices competitive).

Keep in mind they use trackable delivery. It's not so different from other stores that use the same methods of delivery. I make it worth my while by buying other stuff in addition to the recorder.

I've done a lot of Google searching and it seems that the "P" model only comes up in the Asia/Pacific region, and then mostly just as an announcements. The only place I've actually seen it for sale is at Expandore in Singapore where it costs US$ 316 to order, but it quickly became expensive with their shipping costs etc.

B&H are now offering the non-P with case thrown in for $275 so it's not so bad (if you consider the case worth something to you).

I think I'm just going with a regular "non-P" model. It's not worth it just to get the matt black (instead of glossy) and the silly "fur hat" (windshield).

Keep in mind the non-P is matte (ie. the GREY unit Sony call Black is matte, not gloss), so there is no difference there. The only difference seems to be included fur, as you say.

Too bad, but very strange that the AC adapter is 110/120V only. Nowadays when it's so common that people travel devices like these often come with multi-voltage adapters. After all, it's not surprising that someone doing field recording, interviews etc. travel from one region to another.

It probably costs them a few cents more so they decided against it I agree totally. Same thing with the PCM-D50 I got from the US, and the Hi-MD units I have.

I personally don't think it's worth the hassle of buying a converter, but rather buy a new AC adapter. Actually I think I already have a multi-voltage AC adapter from Sony for 3V which I've used with a MiniDisc recorder. If the polarity is the same and it outputs enough power I could use it with the PCM-M10.

Up to you. I like the sureness of using the manufacturer's included AC adaptor (and not worrying about plugs and socket polarity) and just letting it see the 110V-120V it wants, but there is more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.


Earmonger,
The manual could be clearer where they describe how to insert it. Probably the manual's biggest weakness. Had I been in charge of writing it, I would have re-worded that bit. For instance, I would not have written the complete sentence then made the customer read the asterisked * bit. Less clear.

Instead, they should have said: "With the back of the recorder facing you, insert..." for both sentences. I'm sure they could have done that without using any more paper, too.

[tekdroid]

My M10 has had a couple of times when it acted weird.It was on record but levels didn't show.It was turned up all the way. I turned it off and when it came back was fine.

Little glitches like this is what I hope to not see, but the fact that it happened more than once to you is not a good sign. Anyone else?

[Falconidave]

My M10 has had a couple of times when it acted weird.It was on record but levels didn't show.It was turned up all the way. I turned it off and when it came back was fine.

Little glitches like this is what I hope to not see, but the fact that it happened more than once to you is not a good sign. Anyone else?

Nope, not mine, it works great!!  No problem with the 16GB Sandisk card I threw at it, formatted in machine, and all is well.  I even tried using the plug-in power going mic-in with some CA-11's at a really loud 2 hour rock show and it performed beautifully!!  I love this deck, everything my D50 has in the size of my cell phone.

[guysonic]

Thank you guysonic for all the tests that you ran.

I am a beginner at recording and have only recorded a few shows using a Zoom H2.

I have been trying to decide between the M10 and the HR9 since the M10 came out a few months ago.

The graphs that you posted here are a little too complicated for me.

Can you please tell me (as simple as possible) which recorder is better in terms of audio quality using the following setups:

1. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Mic Input (Mic power turned Off)

2. External mics mics>External preamp/battery box>Line Input (Mic power turned Off)

Thank you very much in advance

M10 seems best choice over 09HR especially for using MIC input modes as M10 shows little (1 spike @~ 10K Hz) or virtually no high frequency digital noise.

Suggest battery box powered mics to ONLY use MIC input jack as M10 has overload resistant MIC input ability to +2 Dbu.

And if using external preamplifiers having active gain, use only the LINE input jack OVERLOAD RESISTANT TO OVER +24Dbu.

Those having memory card problems should remember to ALWAYS format the flash cards INSIDE THE DECK. 
M10 requires special card files to properly operate and you will not get these formatting in any other device. (This mentioned in the user’s manual.)


The REC adjust knob on the unit I tested seemed resistant against accidental movement.  However, most rotating mechanical knobs, at least all without detent stops, are subject to turning resistance variations.  Also realize all the parts & deck made/QA’d in China factories, so very likely some knobs are much tighter than others.  With use/age these knobs usually get a bit looser.  Time will tell if or how fast this occurs.



TIP: Placing a small patch (edge folded) duct tape from deck’s back covering only the knob’s lower portion will capture your REC level adjustments from moving accidentally.  The tape’s short folded-back section allows easy partial removal for adjustment.

TIPS: Suggest (back left edge) MIC input HIGH/LOW sensitivity, MANUAL/AUTO, and (back right edge) DPC ON/OFF slide switches be taped down as these are quite free to move with slightest force.  Both the owner and me found these switches moved way too easily when deck was placed inside/removed from a pocket or handled. 



The owner did place a brand of gaffer’s/duct tape over these switches, but this tape left massive amounts of clogging adhesive when removed for adjustments.  I cleaned off this residue replacing with much thinner “Duck” brand of duct tape having way better chance of being removed and re-positioned without leaving clogging residue. 

[guysonic]

I even tried using the plug-in power going mic-in with some CA-11's at a really loud 2 hour rock show and it performed beautifully!!  I love this deck, everything my D50 has in the size of my cell phone.

M10 mic 'plug-in-power' feature outputs a maximum of +3 volts with no loading, and 0.5 volts with 1K ohm load. 

I measured slightly less D50 no load mic powering output at +2.8 volts.

[illconditioned]

I even tried using the plug-in power going mic-in with some CA-11's at a really loud 2 hour rock show and it performed beautifully!!  I love this deck, everything my D50 has in the size of my cell phone.

M10 mic 'plug-in-power' feature outputs a maximum of +3 volts with no loading, and 0.5 volts with 1K ohm load. 

I measured slightly less D50 no load mic powering output at +2.8 volts.

I've used the Edirol R09, Sony D50 and M10, all with plug in power, with a variety of mics, including the CA-11.

It is nice to have a "two piece" unit.  Simple, and no extra boxes/connections to worry about.

Samples at: http://Soundmann.com.  (Listen to Countryman B3 and Sennheiser KE4.  Those are my favourites.)

  Richard

[fmaderjr]

guy-can you test for the approximate unity gain setting?

Also it'd be great to know if there is a level below which you would still get clipping if you had to set the level below that point to keep the meters from going over 0 dB. I made a very informal test line in to try to determine this approximately and it looked like that point was probably very low (possibly around 1/10 on the wheel). This ratio to the highest level appears to me to be a good bit lower than on Sony DAT's and MD's which is a good thing.

When I was using a Korg MR-1, I found your testing results of these issues invaluable in making flawless recordings.

[CatScan]

Apart from the Sony protective casing (LPCM-M10G) as seen below, is there any neoprene or similar "skin" like protection which can be kept on all the time to protect against scratches etc. when in use? The Sony casing is nice when dragging it around, but of no help when actually using the unit.