Topic: Setting levels for a 4 channel mix

[rockymtnryan]

Wondering what the consensus is on setting levels when doing a 4 channel aud mix. I guess I just assumed that if I had both pairs of mics sitting around -6db, the result when I combine the 4 tracks in post would be -6db. From what I'm reading that might not be the case, and the resulting recording could be too hot.

Thanks in advance for any tips. Running 4 channels for the first time this weekend @ CRB.

[Cobiwan]

You are correct Ryan. The two sources will compound levels in post and it may leave little to no headroom for post. Run levels around -12 to -9 and you should be golden for matrixing the two. Plus you can always bring levels up in post.

[Sloan Simpson]

Not sure what you're using to mix, but when I do mixes in Reaper I just pull the fader down for either or both pairs if the combined output is too hot. Then you don't have to worry about it at the recording stage (other than the normal concerns about clipping there).

[rockymtnryan]

Not sure what you're using to mix, but when I do mixes in Reaper I just pull the fader down for either or both pairs if the combined output is too hot. Then you don't have to worry about it at the recording stage (other than the normal concerns about clipping there).

Most likely I'll be using the audio montage feature in WaveLab 6, which I've been playing around with during living room tests. I also have SoundForge Pro 11, but haven't found an easy way to do 4 channel mixes with that tool yet.

So is it accurate to say that as long as the 2 original sources do not have any clipping, you can trim the combined 4 channel mix in post down to a comfortable level, without adding any distortion/clipping, if it's too loud when you combine the 4 tracks?

[Sloan Simpson]

Not sure what you're using to mix, but when I do mixes in Reaper I just pull the fader down for either or both pairs if the combined output is too hot. Then you don't have to worry about it at the recording stage (other than the normal concerns about clipping there).

Most likely I'll be using the audio montage feature in WaveLab 6, which I've been playing around with during living room tests. I also have SoundForge Pro 11, but haven't found an easy way to do 4 channel mixes with that tool yet.

So is it accurate to say that as long as the 2 original sources do not have any clipping, you can trim the combined 4 channel mix in post down to a comfortable level, without adding any distortion/clipping, if it's too loud when you combine the 4 tracks?

This holds true in Reaper at least, I can't speak to other software.

[bombdiggity]

So is it accurate to say that as long as the 2 original sources do not have any clipping, you can trim the combined 4 channel mix in post down to a comfortable level, without adding any distortion/clipping, if it's too loud when you combine the 4 tracks?

As long as you don't clip during recording you can manage the levels when mixing (and indeed you may get a better mix by playing with the balance between the levels relative to the original source).  I often find varying the relative input of different channels gets a much better result than just dumping them all together at whatever they were set at on the sources. 

Mixers should have faders that allow you to readily adjust the input levels channel by channel.  If the software is really clunky you can adjust the channel outputs before dumping them into a mix. 

You should also be able to bring the level of your final mix up with a fader in the mixing suite (or after) if the combined output is not optimized. 

[rockymtnryan]

Any suggestions on editing tools to help with the mix process? I haven't heard of Reaper before. Assumed most people are using WaveLab, SoundForge, Audacity, etc.

[Sloan Simpson]

Any suggestions on editing tools to help with the mix process? I haven't heard of Reaper before. Assumed most people are using WaveLab, SoundForge, Audacity, etc.

Reaper is a full multitrack DAW that has a 60 day trial and is only $60 I believe for non-professional use after that. I put each stereo track on its own fader, and then you can EQ each one separately if needed. It's a lot of horsepower for just doing 4 channels, but at that price it doesn't hurt to have more than you need.

http://www.reaper.fm/

I use Reaper to mix, and then do a mastering stage for volume and fades etc. in Wavelab. All that could be done in Reaper too, I'm just used to my workflow for that stuff in Wavelab.

[Gutbucket]

bombdiggity is on it.  Record as you would normally.  Adjust the relative levels of the two sources, and the overall summed level afterwards.

If you are just getting going with this, and have not already developed a large time/experience/(and often financial) commitment to the workflow of a particular piece of software, I'd go with Sloan's suggestion of using Reaper.  It's inexpensive, very flexible, is in steady development, and has a large user community.


My advice on how to go about mixing the two sources regardless of what program is used is this-
First listen to each source independently and do whatever needs to be done on each individually: panoramic balance, eq, dynamics, fixes, whatever.. anything expect processes which change the run-length of one source verses the other. 

I assume both sources were recorded using one recorder and are already in sync with each other, so you won't need to shrink/stretch one or otherwise sync them.   If not you'll need to do that next.  Even if both sources were recorded to one machine, sometimes its to make time-shift delay adjustments between the two sources. Now is the time to do that.

At that point, you can play around with finding an optimal level balance between the two sources for the sum.  It's rarely going to be exactly the same level for both of them. 

Then make any collective adjustment tweaks necessary to the combination of the two, including their overall summed level.  The amount by which the signal level will increase when the two sources are summed is not going to be simply predictable beforehand.  It depends on how precisely related the information is in the channels which are being summed.

[microburst]

Not sure what you're using to mix, but when I do mixes in Reaper I just pull the fader down for either or both pairs if the combined output is too hot. Then you don't have to worry about it at the recording stage (other than the normal concerns about clipping there).

This, though I use Vegas for the mix - never explored Reaper.

[voltronic]

If you go with Reaper (which is all I will use now), you might want to check this custom theme:

http://www.houseofwhitetie.com/reaper/imperial/wt_imperial.html

Been using this for a while, and it has some really interesting functionality and tons of options.  You don't have the fader strip on the bottom of your arrangement view; you have a full mixing console either on a separate monitor or you toggle back and forth with CTRL+M.  Some may think this is odd, but I like working this way switching back and forth.  You have the full screen devoted to editing splits, fades, etc. in one view, and on the other screen you are there to listen and adjust levels, pan, routing, etc.

[2manyrocks]

$60 for Reaper is what attracts most people and it will do about anything you need it to do once you get past the learning curve.  And it doesn't take a very powerful PC or take up much disk space. 

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Gutbucket has some good advice.

I will mix each show differently depending on a variety of factors including the mix of the SBD (if that is one of the sources) and the audience noise (I'll mix in less AUD for a chatty crowd, for example).

Do not be afraid to apply different effects to each channel. I like to add a little reverb sometimes on the board feed if it's a little dry.

Also make sure you're saving the settings for the Montage. I save that file in with my masters so I can go back and make changes in the future easily. Over the years I *think* I have gotten better at this, and I wish I had saved some of those older Montages so I could go back and apply what I have learned since then to those older sets. I can still go back and start over, but I suspect I'd have more motivation if I didn't have to start from scratch.

[datbrad]

I started out using Wavelab to mix sbd/aud matrix recordings and then tried Audacity and liked the ease of use so much I've stuck with it ever since. It's just so easy and straight forward to work with for me. If I need to do some serious corrections or use a plugin like waves Q10 to remove pre-emphasis from an old DAT source, that's about the only time I use Wavelab. Try Audacity, it's so easy.

[rockymtnryan]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys, really excited to experiment. Reaper looks pretty sweet and I think I'll check that out just to try something new.  For the Reaper users, are you using that tool for everything or just the mix process? Meaning will you add fades, convert to 16bit and dither, track out the recording, etc with that tool as well?

[jbell]

There is a Wavelab6 tutorial kicking around here some where send Gordon a pm and he can point you in the right direction.  I find that Wavelab is really easy to matrix a source.  I'd stick with wavelab instead of dropping money on other programs. 

[StuStu]

There is a Wavelab6 tutorial kicking around here some where send Gordon a pm and he can point you in the right direction.  I find that Wavelab is really easy to matrix a source.  I'd stick with wavelab instead of dropping money on other programs.

http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/Wavelab5Matrix_MikeB.pdf

[voltronic]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys, really excited to experiment. Reaper looks pretty sweet and I think I'll check that out just to try something new.  For the Reaper users, are you using that tool for everything or just the mix process? Meaning will you add fades, convert to 16bit and dither, track out the recording, etc with that tool as well?

I use Reaper for most of the actual "editing" and mixing.  Otherwise, my workflow for concert recording now is:

1. Foobar 2000 for seamlessly joining multiple files of a long recording into one long file.  (This step is only for long concerts where file sizes are over 2GB).

2. Izotope RX:
- Declick module for knocking back applause levels
- Global gain adjustment (if needed)
- Denoise (if needed)
- Render new file

3. Reaper:
- Drop markers, track splits, fades
- Mix multichannel projects
- Render tracks from project region selections (FLAC; same resolution as original recording).

4. Reaper or Foobar:
- Render MP3s for sharing / posting.  If I'm still in Reaper I'll do this from the project the same way as the FLAC files.  If that's not convenient, I import all of the FLACs into Foobar and convert in bulk there (which is SO much faster).

On the rare occasions I'm making CDs, I'll take my 24-bit FLACs back into RX and dither / downsample / decimate there.  Lately I use Foobar with the Sox resampler to do this instead, I can't hear any difference in quality.  Usually I only keep the 24-bit FLAC files around, along with the original files.

[Sloan Simpson]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys, really excited to experiment. Reaper looks pretty sweet and I think I'll check that out just to try something new.  For the Reaper users, are you using that tool for everything or just the mix process? Meaning will you add fades, convert to 16bit and dither, track out the recording, etc with that tool as well?

I use Reaper for most of the actual "editing" and mixing.  Otherwise, my workflow for concert recording now is:

1. Foobar 2000 for seamlessly joining multiple files of a long recording into one long file.  (This step is only for long concerts where file sizes are over 2GB).

I found out you can drag and drop multiple files into Reaper, and it'll prompt you to choose between Single Track and Separate Tracks. If you choose Single Track it joins the files seamlessly.

[voltronic]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions guys, really excited to experiment. Reaper looks pretty sweet and I think I'll check that out just to try something new.  For the Reaper users, are you using that tool for everything or just the mix process? Meaning will you add fades, convert to 16bit and dither, track out the recording, etc with that tool as well?

I use Reaper for most of the actual "editing" and mixing.  Otherwise, my workflow for concert recording now is:

1. Foobar 2000 for seamlessly joining multiple files of a long recording into one long file.  (This step is only for long concerts where file sizes are over 2GB).

I found out you can drag and drop multiple files into Reaper, and it'll prompt you to choose between Single Track and Separate Tracks. If you choose Single Track it joins the files seamlessly.

Nice!  I don't know how I never saw that, but thanks for saving me a step!