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Author Topic: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot  (Read 6794 times)

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Offline kcmule

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Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« on: April 27, 2009, 03:59:42 PM »
I'd like to upgrade my point and shoot to something better.  I've been
looking at some Canon DSLR's but am unsure of what the best bang for
the buck is.

I'd be shooting concerts 99.9% of the time at a venue where getting
gear in the door is not an issue in the least.

I do not know enough about DSLR's to speak intelligently so any pointers,
advice, comments, etc.. are most welcome.

Thanks for your time.



Offline flipp

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 05:18:33 PM »
The only piece of advice I can offer is check how noisy the shutter is on any dSLR you are thinking of purchasing. I was in a small listening room one evening recording a singer with an amplified acoustic guitar. The place holds ~125. There were two folks with dSLRs there (may have been more but those are the only two I noticed). One of the photographers shot between songs and I could occassionally hear the shutter from 40 feet. Those don't appear on the recording. The other photographer, using a Nikon which I believe was a D80, was 30 feet away and everytime he took a pic I could hear it and it is also on the recording. Very annoying.

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 11:24:32 PM »
My questions / thoughts on going through the same process, though not for concert shooting:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,100817.0.html
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Offline kcmule

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 09:07:03 AM »
Thanks for the comments thus far.  I'll read that link.

Offline sullen

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 09:42:43 AM »
Well how much is your budget, that's key here.

If I were in your shoes, and I was 2yrs ago and was driving myself nuts shopping for a camera.

I would wait until monday. Canon will have the rebates in effect.

~EOS Rebel XSi EF-S 18–55mm IS Kit (B) + EF-S 55–250mm f/4–5.6 IS - $200

Buying that deal, it's like getting the 55-250 lens almost free.

Pick up a 50mm 1.8, this lens is bang for buck, 100$ and you can get flawless pics under concert lights.
Extra battery, few cards, and you're done.

You'll have a nice setup that can shoot even more than concerts for under 800$

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Offline kcmule

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 09:53:45 AM »
Well how much is your budget, that's key here.

If I were in your shoes, and I was 2yrs ago and was driving myself nuts shopping for a camera.

I would wait until monday. Canon will have the rebates in effect.

~EOS Rebel XSi EF-S 18–55mm IS Kit (B) + EF-S 55–250mm f/4–5.6 IS - $200

Buying that deal, it's like getting the 55-250 lens almost free.

Pick up a 50mm 1.8, this lens is bang for buck, 100$ and you can get flawless pics under concert lights.
Extra battery, few cards, and you're done.

You'll have a nice setup that can shoot even more than concerts for under 800$


Budget, I guess, is around $1000 - $1200.  Really haven't decided, but that
sounds reasonable to be.  Under $800 sounds much better ;D

Thanks for your input.




Offline spcyrfc

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 12:57:09 PM »
i bought a nikkon d90.  i have noticed the shutter noise, it's loud and can be a problem as mentioned above.  i went with nikkon cause my roommate uses one and we can share lenses.  the biggest kicker for me was size.  the nikkon was smaller than other dslr's i looked at (iirc) and i really dig the feel of the camera.  it is solid, maybe it couldn't take a drop, i wouldn't want to find out. 

roommates brother shoots on a d300 with a nikkor 17-55mm lense and he beats the shit out of that.  gets the shots tho - http://stephenmaturen.squarespace.com/

someday i know i want to move to nikkon's higher class bodies d300, d700, d3 after i get my dream recording rig in order, so in some time, but i rest easy knowing all my lenses will be compatible AND that nikkon will be around for a long time.
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Offline phanophish

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 11:55:47 PM »
I'm a Nikon guy but honestly Canon & Nikon both make great cameras.  Right now I would say Nikon has a small nearly negligible lead in sensor performance (A year ago it was bigger lead for Canon) and a little larger lead in their flash systems.   Typically though, flash is not permitted when shooting concerts so may not be a big deal for ya.  The D90 or even the D5000 are really nice and can be found with a lens for <$1000.  They also offer HD video which has some pretty interesting possibilities.  Audio on the DSLRs is not great, but pretty easy for us tapers to overcome.  Nikon also just released a 35/1.8 lens that is probably the best choice for small clubs as it offers a little wider field of view than the 50/1.8 others have recommended while still being a really fast lens.  I just picked on up brand new for $200.  Right now I don't think Canon has an equivalent lens.

Where/what are you going to be shooting?  Knuckleheads and the Bottleneck are both REALLY low light so can be very tough rooms.  Most other venues in KC have better light but frequently have bands that you need a media pass to use a SLR. 

If you want to get together sometime I'd be more than happy to let you play with my camera at a show.  Not sure what is coming up soon that would be a good option. 

One other thought is there are some really good deals on D200 Nikons & 30/40D Canons.  You get a more "pro" camera and potentially save enough to pick up a extra lens or two.  If you have questions PM me or give me a call.
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Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
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Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
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Offline kcmule

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 09:20:26 AM »
I'll mostly be shooting Knuckleheads, as you mentioned I'd need a pass for
most other places.  I can do what I want at Knuckleheads and not worry
about it.  I see 95% of my shows there anyway so that is my prime ground.

I'd love to take your toys for a spin but finding a time where that is doable
is more than likely tough.  Thanks very much for the offer.

I'll be shopping around a bit before I buy anything.  I'll hit you up for your
opinion/comments before I purchase.  It's been recommented to me that I
go for something full frame, but I don't have that kind of change to drop.
Besides this is my first DLSR, baby steps  ;D





Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2009, 10:37:48 AM »
Shutter noise at quiet concerts drives me nuts.  I talked with a photographer at a recent Indian classical concert who was obviously distracting all the patrons with his Nikon.  Totally disrupted the delicate auditory atmosphere that the musicians worked so hard to produce.  Several attendees mentioned that they didn't mind him walking/crawling around to compose the shots, but found the incessant clicking very annoying.  If you are buying camera gear primarily for shooting music other than blaring rock, I urge you to search out something quiet.  He did mention that he found Cannon much quieter than Nikon.

I'll add that I often cringe when photographers lean up against my stage-lip mics without even thinking about it.  If the shutter is loud I get to cringe with every playback.

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline phanophish

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 12:23:19 PM »
I'll mostly be shooting Knuckleheads, as you mentioned I'd need a pass for
most other places.  I can do what I want at Knuckleheads and not worry
about it.  I see 95% of my shows there anyway so that is my prime ground.

I'd love to take your toys for a spin but finding a time where that is doable
is more than likely tough.  Thanks very much for the offer.

I'll be shopping around a bit before I buy anything.  I'll hit you up for your
opinion/comments before I purchase.  It's been recommented to me that I
go for something full frame, but I don't have that kind of change to drop.
Besides this is my first DLSR, baby steps  ;D


Full frame is nice, but I think for your purposes probably double your budget.  The newer crop sensors from both Canon & Nikon are VERY good.  Not as good as a 5DmkII or a D700 but they are also not $2K+. 

I'd also steer away from any of the Kit lens deals.  None of the kit lenses are really suitable for low light shooting so you are spending $$ on glass that really can't be used for your primary purpose.  Instead pick up a body only, and begin building your lens collection from there.  The 50/1.8 is a staple and the best $100(or less) you can spend on a lens.   There are some aftermarket (Sigma, Tamron, Tokina) wide angle 2.8 zooms that are great options for daily and low light shooting and can be had fairly ($250-400) inexpensively.  Good glass holds value well so it's easy to resell later if you decide to upgrade.  The kit lenses very few people purchase individually so their resale value is not as strong.
______________________________________________
Audio: MBHO 603/KA200N or AKG C2000B>Edirol R44
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/phanophish

Photo:  Nikon D300, D200, 35mm f/1.8,  50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, Nikon 17-55 f/2.8, Sigma 18-50/2.8 Macro, 18-70 f/4.5-5.6, 24-120 f/3.5-5.6 VR, Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6, Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VR, SB-800

Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Blues Mobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline kcmule

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2009, 12:27:10 PM »
Full frame is nice, but I think for your purposes probably double your budget.  The newer crop sensors from both Canon & Nikon are VERY good.  Not as good as a 5DmkII or a D700 but they are also not $2K+. 

Funny, the guy that mentioned the full frame shoots with a D700.


I'd also steer away from any of the Kit lens deals.  None of the kit lenses are really suitable for low light shooting so you are spending $$ on glass that really can't be used for your primary purpose.  Instead pick up a body only, and begin building your lens collection from there.  The 50/1.8 is a staple and the best $100(or less) you can spend on a lens.   There are some aftermarket (Sigma, Tamron, Tokina) wide angle 2.8 zooms that are great options for daily and low light shooting and can be had fairly ($250-400) inexpensively.  Good glass holds value well so it's easy to resell later if you decide to upgrade.  The kit lenses very few people purchase individually so their resale value is not as strong.

Noted.  Thanks.


Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2009, 12:52:09 PM »
I'll add that I often cringe when photographers lean up against my stage-lip mics without even thinking about it.  If the shutter is loud I get to cringe with every playback.

That's so obnoxious.  Shoot rubber bands at them?  Hit them with a laser pointer?

I'm also a shutter noise hater.  Fwiw, a lot of the noise tends to be from the mirror in the DSLR.  Most of the fixed lens cameras (some are very good) don't have mirrors and often are very silent.  Some folks build or buy noise suppressing boxes to put their cameras in.

Offline kcmule

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2009, 03:13:16 PM »
I'll add that I often cringe when photographers lean up against my stage-lip mics without even thinking about it.  If the shutter is loud I get to cringe with every playback.

That's so obnoxious.  Shoot rubber bands at them?  Hit them with a laser pointer?

I'm also a shutter noise hater.  Fwiw, a lot of the noise tends to be from the mirror in the DSLR.  Most of the fixed lens cameras (some are very good) don't have mirrors and often are very silent.  Some folks build or buy noise suppressing boxes to put their cameras in.


I do hear some shutter noise from others around me at times.  I don't
attend many "quiet" shows so this really is not much concern for me.

Offline phanophish

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2009, 04:35:01 PM »
I'll add that I often cringe when photographers lean up against my stage-lip mics without even thinking about it.  If the shutter is loud I get to cringe with every playback.

That's so obnoxious.  Shoot rubber bands at them?  Hit them with a laser pointer?

I'm also a shutter noise hater.  Fwiw, a lot of the noise tends to be from the mirror in the DSLR.  Most of the fixed lens cameras (some are very good) don't have mirrors and often are very silent.  Some folks build or buy noise suppressing boxes to put their cameras in.


It's all about perspective.  Photographers probably hate that you place your mics in the line of sight of their lenses.   ;)
______________________________________________
Audio: MBHO 603/KA200N or AKG C2000B>Edirol R44
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/phanophish

Photo:  Nikon D300, D200, 35mm f/1.8,  50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, Nikon 17-55 f/2.8, Sigma 18-50/2.8 Macro, 18-70 f/4.5-5.6, 24-120 f/3.5-5.6 VR, Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6, Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VR, SB-800

Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Blues Mobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2009, 06:25:01 PM »
I understand were you're coming from, yet the comparison doesn't really fly.  It's easy to compose the photo without the mics yet impossible to 'crop' the sound pollution. The minor obstacle my mics pose is minuscule and doesn't negatively effect their end product. They move 6" to one side or the other and get perfect shots with my mics out of frame.  The end result for me is a perfect recording of them taking endless photos. ;)

The Indian music photographer clicked on the beat a total of 4 times in probably 500+ shots.  I counted  ::) 

It's mostly about awareness of the impact of our actions.. and respect for others.  I go to great lengths to make my setups as visually unobtrusive as possible.  Often people don't even know they are there, or that they are microphones. 

Of course as recordists we become hyper aware of sound.  Photographers become hyper aware of sightlines and lighting.  I chuckle a bit when I constantly see photographers contort themselves and crawl to stay out of sightlines, only to start talking audibly to each other right in front of the stage.

I love great photography and a great visual performance, but with a few exceptions which I don't care much for anyway, musical performances are after all primarily auditory artforms. I often find myself wishing people would respect that (and each other) a little more, that's all.

As sound aware recordists, if any of you talk with the SLR manufacturers, please put in a plug for quieting the shutter/mirror in upcoming models.  It could certainly be done I can't see any reason why not to. Rather, it would be a competitive advantage for shooting in all kinds of quiet situations beyond music photography.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline phanophish

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2009, 05:28:58 PM »
I understand were you're coming from, yet the comparison doesn't really fly.  It's easy to compose the photo without the mics yet impossible to 'crop' the sound pollution. The minor obstacle my mics pose is minuscule and doesn't negatively effect their end product. They move 6" to one side or the other and get perfect shots with my mics out of frame.  The end result for me is a perfect recording of them taking endless photos. ;)

The Indian music photographer clicked on the beat a total of 4 times in probably 500+ shots.  I counted  ::) 

It's mostly about awareness of the impact of our actions.. and respect for others.  I go to great lengths to make my setups as visually unobtrusive as possible.  Often people don't even know they are there, or that they are microphones. 

Of course as recordists we become hyper aware of sound.  Photographers become hyper aware of sightlines and lighting.  I chuckle a bit when I constantly see photographers contort themselves and crawl to stay out of sightlines, only to start talking audibly to each other right in front of the stage.

I love great photography and a great visual performance, but with a few exceptions which I don't care much for anyway, musical performances are after all primarily auditory artforms. I often find myself wishing people would respect that (and each other) a little more, that's all.

As sound aware recordists, if any of you talk with the SLR manufacturers, please put in a plug for quieting the shutter/mirror in upcoming models.  It could certainly be done I can't see any reason why not to. Rather, it would be a competitive advantage for shooting in all kinds of quiet situations beyond music photography.

I have not taped or photographed a show that it would be remotely possible to make out my shutter noise over the band or likely even the ambient crowd chatter. 

I could see it happening in small acoustic performances, but that's not typically what I am shooting so not an issue at all.
______________________________________________
Audio: MBHO 603/KA200N or AKG C2000B>Edirol R44
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/phanophish

Photo:  Nikon D300, D200, 35mm f/1.8,  50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, Nikon 17-55 f/2.8, Sigma 18-50/2.8 Macro, 18-70 f/4.5-5.6, 24-120 f/3.5-5.6 VR, Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6, Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VR, SB-800

Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Blues Mobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline phanophish

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2009, 05:35:28 PM »
Just ran across this deal.....

http://dealnews.com/Refurbished-Nikon-D90-12-3-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-for-700-free-shipping/295096.html

Basically it has nearly the same sensor performance as a D300, shoots HD video and is a heck of a good buy at this price.  I'm a little tempted to dump my D200 and pick one up.  One on the way  >:D The few things you give up compared to the D300 is the D90 has a lower frame rate and a less rugged body.  Might cut your lens budget a little tight but the ISO performance and video are probably worth it.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 05:45:20 PM by phanophish »
______________________________________________
Audio: MBHO 603/KA200N or AKG C2000B>Edirol R44
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/phanophish

Photo:  Nikon D300, D200, 35mm f/1.8,  50mm f/1.4, 85mm f/1.8, Nikon 17-55 f/2.8, Sigma 18-50/2.8 Macro, 18-70 f/4.5-5.6, 24-120 f/3.5-5.6 VR, Sigma 10-20 f4-5.6, Nikon 70-200 f/2.8VR, SB-800

Jake: What's this?
Elwood: What?
Jake: This car. This stupid car. Where's the Cadillac? The Caddy? Where's the Caddy?
Elwood: The what?
Jake: The Cadillac we used to have. The Blues Mobile!
Elwood: I traded it.
Jake: You traded the Blues Mobile for this?
Elwood: No. For a microphone.
Jake: A microphone? Okay I can see that.

Offline Sanjay

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 08:09:02 AM »
To whomever mentioned stage lip mics.

If you're a news photographer shooting the show for a publication you most likely have three songs to get your shot which you're allowed to be up against the stage doing so in most cases.  The reason I say this is that when you're working on a short timeline you tend to ignore anything external, be it mics, people, noise, the music, in order to get your shot.  They probably can't differentiate your stuff from gear that's normally there, so mentioning to them that you're recording would probably would help them steer clear.  They're not trying to be an ass.... they're in the zone if you will.

Now if it's someone who is bringing their camera and clicking away the whole show...that is another story.

To the original poster: Skip any kit lenses, they're rubbish as has been mentioned i'm sure.  Do you research on whichever camera has the best high ISO performance within your budget.  Buy that one.  I think Nikon's really do this better, and most concerts the shutter won't be noticed, unless you're doing classical. Most people besides tapers will still tune you out cause they're focused on the music and are somewhat more immune to external noise since they're not recording.

Lenses:  Canon and Nikon make a 50mm F1.8 lens which is not much more than $100, that's essential.  Also consider the Tamron 17-50mm F2.8 lens.  Great lens, very close in quality to the Nikkor version.  That should run you about $400.  That's a good starting kit there.
mics & cameras

Offline kcmule

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Re: Upgrading from a Point and Shoot
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 09:07:00 AM »
Just ran across this deal.....

http://dealnews.com/Refurbished-Nikon-D90-12-3-MP-Digital-SLR-Camera-Body-for-700-free-shipping/295096.html

I'm a little tempted to dump my D200 and pick one up.  One on the way  >:D


You slut.  :P

 

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