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Author Topic: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)  (Read 17325 times)

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nameloc01

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2008, 03:58:42 PM »
What I said again is...

-The AT mics ran 3 wire/phantom are near impossible to clip at a concert. And according to many people sound better than 2 wire. But, let's not argue opinions.

-the AT mics ran 2 wire will clip somewhat easily at a moderate to loud concert.

- the 3 wire/phantom allows max SPLs without compromising the noise.

- the 2 wire modded lowers the sensitivity of the mics, but not the noise in relation to the sensitivity. Right? thus you could say the noise increases. Not too mention possible need of a preamp to regain the lost gain. Right?

All said and done..if $ was not an issue..meaning both methods were the exact same price.. Which one would most people choose?

Minus...the few who may be in fear of stealthing an additional box.
I'm also wondering if Mr.Church has to pay any taxes on these "thousands" of products he's selling here?

nameloc01

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2008, 04:03:33 PM »
Like I said, there will be some people who are set on not carrying an extra box for whatever reason.
This obviously isn't gonna get anywhere, so I have to go watch The Browns get their asses handed to them now.

Offline Will_S

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2008, 04:17:21 PM »
Whatever, there are still some misstatements above but this has resulted in a long tangent from what the original poster asked.

For the OP, since you are considering ways to move to a stealthier setup:

I personally have run AT853s via:

 straight 2 wire - They do clip, although not as easily as some believe.  In 2 years (note: using a 9V battery box.  Using lower voltage PIP from a recorder's mic input may cause more problems) I had one recording badly clipped, but I try to avoid concerts that will inevitably damage my ears.

3 wire battery box - this did drop sensitivity considerably, I never measured it, but 10-12 dB sounds about right.  This means I had to add more gain via my recorder.  In theory this meant more noise, in reality the noise was usually buried in the ambient noise at moderately loud concerts.  Ironically, the only shows I could hear the noise on were the acoustic ones with very quiet, attentive audiences - the ones which never would have clipped before.

4.7k mod - sensitivity was very close to the 3 wire version.  Despite what some people claim many people hear, I heard no difference.

So again my advice is get some better open mics if you want better sound.  If you want a stealthier setup, don't bother with 943s, figure out a way to run the 853s with a smaller recorder.

Personally I very rarely stealth and I'm not "afraid" of an extra box, sometimes I just want to keep my setup as inobtrusive and uncluttered as possible.  Again, if you want to maximize sound quality, don't worry about how to power AT853s, get better mics.

Edit:  If you get a custom made 3-wire battery box or preamp with mini-XLR inputs and a miniplug output, you can run your AT853s (sans the adapter/XLR part) into a smaller recorder like an R09 when you need stealthy, and keep the phantom adapters for when you want to run the FR2LE.  A PS-2 modified to have a miniplug output, or with an adapter cable, will work too if you also use the adapters.  That's the way I'd go if you want to keep the AT853s as your main mics, both open and stealth.  And I didn't mean in any of my comments to imply I thought AT853s were bad mics - I love mine.  But you can do better.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 04:40:45 PM by Will_S »

Offline flipp

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2008, 04:39:01 PM »

For those who run 2 rigs, what are your thoughts?  Do you sometimes regret running the small rig? Do you find that you have one collecting dust in the closet? Are you satisfied with the different qualities of recording you get depending on the situation?

Sorry for being vague, but I'm just trying to weigh out the pros and cons.


Back to the original questions. I often run two rigs; FR2 and FR2LE with either Beyer 803 or Berliner CM33 mics. Still trying to figure out which combo I like best. I find it often depends on what room I'm recording in, where in that room I am and what type of music I'm recording. Just for stealth situations I bought a MicroTrack 24/96. I've been known to run it in addition to the two Fostex units. Of those three, all get used and don't gather dust, the D7s and JB3s collect dust along with various pre's I no longer use but can't  stand to part with, packrat that I am. I find the most noticable difference in recordings is more often due to location and configuration than equipment.

I sometimes regret running the small rig but only when I don't bring one of the other rigs and security/the artist are not a problem Sometimes you can't know that in advance so I just bring the tiny setup. Certain artists I know are stealth only and a couple of venues where I don't want to be seen carrying anything between the car and venue mandate that I bring only the small, easily concealed rig.

My advice is wait until after the move and you've had a chance to see the new venues and how tight security is before buying any other gear. You might find there is only minimal difference between your current situation and the one at your new location. If that's the case, perhaps upgrading your open rig would make more sense than getting a stealth rig. Once you know what the sitution is, then you can make a better informed decision on what, if anything, to change.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 04:42:16 PM by flipp »

dorrcoq

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2008, 04:40:14 PM »

I'm also wondering if Mr.Church has to pay any taxes on these "thousands" of products he's selling here?

So now you are accusing him of tax evasion? ::)

Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2008, 04:43:13 PM »
oh, and one more related question:  do you feel like I'd notice a big sound difference between my current setup and the 943>plug-in power setup I mentioned above?

Yes, you will. I highly encourage you to keep your current rig as your "undercover" rig. The AT 943s would run fine on plug-in power (no mods), however I think many will agree with me that the 853s sound better. They sound smoother and have a better bass response. I only used my 943s once before purchasing U853 caps.

Now, in regards to the rest of this thread...that 4.7k modification works great! Whomever came up with it definitely knows their stuff. It does reduce distortion on AT 853 microphones when reproducing high SPLs. However, I still choose to use a Denecke PS-2 because I think it sounds slightly better. I also built a three wire battery box, but again, the PS-2 sounds better to my ears. I'm not even sure how to explain it in words [edit: except, not expect] to say that the entire sound is fuller and clearer. For example, I had definite issues running both mods when it came to loud sibilants at shows. Not that it matters though, really...just run whatever sounds best to you, what's the big deal?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:09:28 PM by Sunday Driver »
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2008, 04:52:26 PM »
namloc01: I know at least 1 thing you don't know what you're talking about-taxes. It was a low blow anyway to question whether Chris Church pays taxes on his sales just because you & he are having a heated dispute. That's totally irrelevant to the argument. He does not have to pay US taxes because he does not have an office in the US and is not present in the US himself to do his selling. He obviously pays taxes in Canada because E-Bay has a record of most of his sales (not that I'm impying he'd avoid Canadian taxes even if he could).

Furthermore it was a another low blow to say he pushes his own products too hard. He mentions what he thinks is there benefits, but is very generous with advise to us tapers even if there is no money in it for him.
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
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Offline Unitmonster

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2008, 05:33:40 PM »
 :o
Wasn't looking to stir the pot with questions on 4.7k mod vs. stock, just trying to gauge what peoples' impressions of 1/8" modded vs. stock XLR terminating versions of the AT was.  Thanks to those who replied.

As far as upgrading, yeah of course it's a balance between budget and performance, but to be honest I've been almost 100% happy with the results from my 853rx's since I bought them back in 2004. Would a pair of Schoeps have done a better job in those circumstances?  Probably, but on a number of occasions I've compared my recordings to others done with much pricier rigs and found that they matched up very favourably, and sometimes sounded better.

In the long term I'd love to have a small portable rig plus a 4-channel setup with a pair of Neumanns or DPAs, but I'm not in the position to make the most out of a 4-5k rig at this point in time.

It's a shame that there isn't a true "stealth" 24 bit recorder able to take xlr and provide 48v phantom. I liked my PMD660 for that but am glad I switched to 24 bit at the same time.

I guess for the moment I'll sit tight, see whether the FR-2LE causes me troubles at shows and make my decision based on that.  Would hate to feel like I'm taking a step back sound-wise to be more portable though.

Thanks!

AT853rx (c,sc,o)> Fostex FR2-LE (Busman T-Mod)

nameloc01

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2008, 05:45:42 PM »
You feel he doesn't push too much, I feel he does.

Look at the thread in the "mics" section I think it was, the thread was about BBs' and some issues this guy is having. *The problem as anyone can see is he's running 3 wire AT mics with a 2 wire BB and getting bad results. Now instead of merely and simple stating this
-his first comment was then to go with his "mod" on his mics. Not anything about running them the right way

It never ends.

I'm all for small business and everything, but there's a right way to do things.
And I'm not just targeting him per se, but people "pitching" gear or whatever should keep it in the proper forums.

And asking a question isn't a "low blow". Just a question.

And, the whole "mod" thing wasn't even brought up by me here, someone else brought it up right off the bat.

Offline OFOTD

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2008, 05:46:48 PM »
unitmonster -

Is there a set of mics that you feel would give you opportunities in both open and stealth.  Obviously the DPA 402x come to mind but may be out of your budget.  How about the Neumann KM100's or the Beyers with actives (are they out yet?) or what about the AKG 390's?

All of the above offer body detachable capsules so you can wear in a hat or use on a stand.   Once you have your mics settled then the rest seems pretty trivial.  Either you can plug straight into a FR2LE or you could run a PS2 or another pocketable small pre to use with your current recorder.

I think there is alot of overlap in stealth / open gear.  Just a matter of figuring out your budget and finding something that works in both situations.

Offline Unitmonster

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2008, 05:52:33 PM »
If you get a custom made 3-wire battery box or preamp with mini-XLR inputs and a miniplug output, you can run your AT853s (sans the adapter/XLR part) into a smaller recorder like an R09 when you need stealthy, and keep the phantom adapters for when you want to run the FR2LE.  A PS-2 modified to have a miniplug output, or with an adapter cable, will work too if you also use the adapters.  That's the way I'd go if you want to keep the AT853s as your main mics, both open and stealth.  And I didn't mean in any of my comments to imply I thought AT853s were bad mics - I love mine.  But you can do better.

This may be a good option. I don't like the idea of hacking my mics if I don't need to, and I've had good results with the PS-2 in the past. 853rx>PS2>R09HR might be small enough if I decide the FR-2LE is too big of a project in certain environments.  Probably only a 350-400 dollar investment as well.

unitmonster -

Is there a set of mics that you feel would give you opportunities in both open and stealth.  Obviously the DPA 402x come to mind but may be out of your budget.  How about the Neumann KM100's or the Beyers with actives (are they out yet?) or what about the AKG 390's?

All of the above offer body detachable capsules so you can wear in a hat or use on a stand.   Once you have your mics settled then the rest seems pretty trivial.  Either you can plug straight into a FR2LE or you could run a PS2 or another pocketable small pre to use with your current recorder.

I think there is alot of overlap in stealth / open gear.  Just a matter of figuring out your budget and finding something that works in both situations.


The beyer930s do sound good, but actives don't exist yet.  DPAs 402x are favorites of mine but too pricey.  I also might miss the switchable caps wtih either of those options. Not the biggest fan of AKGs unfortunately. I do think that if I upgrade my mics it'll be to something that can do double duty (open/stealth), but it's tough to think through what full setup will suit me best. Guess I'll hold off for a while longer and see what the budget's going to look like with my new job and maybe that'll shed some light on the issue!
AT853rx (c,sc,o)> Fostex FR2-LE (Busman T-Mod)

Offline OFOTD

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2008, 06:02:22 PM »
Those were just a few examples of active systems.  Far from a complete list but some of just what rolled off my head at the moment.

Good luck in your search for a dual rig.  Looking forward to what you finally decide.

Offline jeromejello

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2008, 06:33:11 PM »
i almost dont know if posting in this train derailment will be help to the op or not...

i have the at853a's and have run them with 2 wire / 3 wire battery boxes and p48 (using the at8533 adapters into a ps-2, mp-2, & ua-5).  i have always felt that the best performance i got was using the mp-2 and ua-5 because i was getting the max amount of power to the mics (9v) with a pre to add gain.  I use the at853's for stealth primarily now due to their size, but i have used them in open situations with great success as well.

i grabbed a second set of mics (and a third and fourth) because i wanted to have more options available to me.  That said, i was picky when i got my first open set (akg 460s) becasue i felt the at853 so versitle and sounded so nice that i wanted something that would be a noticable jump in the quality and sound of my recordings.  would i have gotten a pair of 390s or c4s or avatone ck1s? not to my ears, since i felt the price jump (or just buying it in general) was not a decent enough trade off for what i already had.  (note to members who have these mics... that is my opinion - not bashing your gear).

There are plenty of options available if you wanted to run an open rig... my suggestion is to find something that gives you a noticible upgrade to sound since you are already rocking a nice set of mics.

fwiw, i wouldn't ever think of modding my at853s with that resistor stuff.  i have never had an issue with these mics other than operator error in all sorts of powering and concert situations, so i really dont understand why everyone is all excited about it.  imho, a nice preamp is a better investment... and you can always use it with another set of mics.
open: mbho 603a (ka200n/ka500hn) > SD MP-2 > PCM-M10
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Offline Liquid Drum

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2008, 06:33:11 PM »
As I've said before, I run my AT mics with the 4.7 mod and they can handle anything. Ok, so you lose 10db of sensitivty but I get that back using the CA-9100 pre. From what I can tell/read up on, there is no sound quality difference between phantom/3wire BB and 4.7 mod on AT mics.

I could be wrong though as I'm no expert.
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Offline Sunday Driver

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Re: Question for 2-rig owners (stealth and open)
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2008, 06:46:07 PM »
This may be a good option. I don't like the idea of hacking my mics if I don't need to, and I've had good results with the PS-2 in the past. 853rx>PS2>R09HR might be small enough if I decide the FR-2LE is too big of a project in certain environments.  Probably only a 350-400 dollar investment as well.

That is the exact set-up I am running now, and I like it. It's works best for loud sources though. Feel free to PM me if you want some samples.
However, taking a look at the size of the FR-2LE, you wouldn't be reducing the size of your overall rig by much.

two rigs,..
one is small and most consider it a stealth rig - but I only use it for open taping
the other is smaller and I use it for both open and low profile.
both offer really nice results.

Moke, for the benefit of the group here, I think we would all like to know what gear makes up these two rigs.
You either record it or it's gone forever.
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