Topic: My first record: could you give me some feedback?

[PaulCayard]

Hi guys,

on sunday I've taped my first gig and now I'm trying to understand what is wrong (or not) :-)
Could you give me some feedback? I'll try to share all the info about my record...

Gig: Bruce Springsteen, The River Tour, 2016-07-03. (NOTE: this record will never be shared because concerning a gig that will be official released on live.brucespringsteen.net. This is only a test for my rig)
Location: Milan (Italy), Meazza Stadium. Parterre/Public Admission/PA, midfield position on the left side of the stage.
Rig: AT853-C > CA-9200 > Sony M10 (Available but not used: AT853-SC, AT853-H)
CA-9200 setting: +15 dB
Sony M10 setting: near 4 (as level), 24bit, 96kHz

Track on test: The Rising

Splitted raw track (Audacity (32 bit) > Split > 24/96 flac): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6770343/The%20Rising.flac
Normalized track (Audacity (32 bit) > Split > Stereo channels normalized independently > 16/44 flac): https://soundcloud.com/paulcayard/bruce-springsteen-the-river-tour-2016-07-03-milan-the-rising

Known issue:
- at the end of the track maybe I've moved my face away from the stack
- maybe I've swapped the channels (I didn't mark AT853 channels as left and right, so I put a temporary mark to find it after the gig. This mark went away, so I didn't know which mic I put on the left and which one was on the right. But it doesn't matter, this is only a test).
- channels have not the same sensitivity as showed here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176617

Question:
- I think that I taped with a too low level (mean at near -18 dB instead of -12 dB, peak at 12 dB), so during acoustic session level was low. I've attached a screenshot of audacity to show you the level of a sample (if there is a graph or data that is useful to this analysis I can try to post in this thread...). Maybe it was low due to windshear + stealth hat... Or maybe my mics were not well positioned...
The question is: during the next tape shall I rise the level on Sony M10 (5? 6?) or shall I mantain the level near the "unity gain" of that recorder (3/4)?

Thanks a lot for any contribution!

EDIT #1: P.S.: a special thanks to MLKLuke for a lot of advices in the last 6 months!

EDIT #2: Added a second sample track (Audacity (32 bit) > Split > Stereo channels normalized independently > 16/44 flac): https://soundcloud.com/paulcayard/bruce-springsteen-the-river-tour-2016-07-03-milan-because-the-night

[danlynch]

I think it sounds pretty good for an outdoor stadium show with modest stealth mics.   The problems are the distance from the sound source, the crowd, and the phasing from the outdoor elements.  There's not much you can do about any of those three, except of course to get yourself a better ticket ;^.

In terms of levels, remember that you can always boost in post-production.  Your levels are high enough to not introduce any noise in the post process, but you might want to get them a little higher live.  The other part of that axiom is that if your levels are too high live, you can't remove brickwalling. 

[jagraham]

At a quick listen this is a great first recording! Not a big Springsteen fan, but I've gathered that the sound quality at his shows isn't always the best. That said, I'm not the best judge of how great a Springsteen audience tape can be, but this isn't bad at all. Looks like a huge venue, not sure how packed the field was but if you think the audience noise is too much (I don't) the hypers could fix that (at the expense of some low end).

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your levels, but I personally like to run higher. Most will say that it's better to be cautious and run lower vs. higher. I know on the Tascam DR units I'm usually able to achieve higher levels safely, but maybe someone with more use of an M10 can chime in. Is the sample of the acoustic part of the show? Either way, recording at 24 bit gives you a little more room to amplify or normalize without adding unwanted noise.

Another possible cause of the levels being too low would be a bad or dying battery.

As you've noticed, if you move your head much it will affect the stereo image. If you use omnis or maybe the subcards you would probably see less of this, but I wouldn't recommend those in a venue that large.

[PaulCayard]

I think it sounds pretty good for an outdoor stadium show with modest stealth mics.
[...]

At a quick listen this is a great first recording!
[...]

Thanks a lot :-) I'll take care of your advices!

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with your levels, but I personally like to run higher.

I've forgotten to say that CA-9200 setting are +0/+10/+15/+30/+35/+40 dB so I can't rise level with CA-9200 :-/ But I can do that by M10 :-)

Another possible cause of the levels being too low would be a bad or dying battery.

I used new batteries for both CA-9200 and M10 ;-)

[thunderbolt]

I think you did a nice job for your first time out. 

One tactic people sometimes use, if it isn't assigned seating (I'm sure that is not the case here), is to get close to one side of the PA--essentially point your mics towards the PA, not the band.  Yes, it would be mono (if the mix was stereo to begin with--some mixers only mix to mono).  However, you would get a higher signal (music) to noise (people, ambience) ratio.  In many situations using a more directional pattern (supercardioid) can help to reduce chatter and noise, but the technique's less forgiving WRT human error.

[PaulCayard]

Thanks boltman for the advise :-) I was in the PA (in Italy is called "Parterre") and I was more or less in front of the main left side stack (but not so close, I wasn't in the pit area) and I've tried to point the mics (AB pattern) to that stack.

[daspyknows]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft. 

[PaulCayard]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.

Thanks a lot, I'm very happy. This result means that TS community is very very useful to learn how to tape :-)
Thanks for the advice of the position!

[rhinowing]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.

seconding this, I find that being centrally located is crucial in producing a "live" sounding recording (at least with my cheapo mics)

[PaulCayard]

Thanks rhinowing!
Added a second sample track: https://soundcloud.com/paulcayard/bruce-springsteen-the-river-tour-2016-07-03-milan-because-the-night

[nulldogmas]

Agreed that this came out very well considering the recording environment (big room, relatively far from stage). Nice job!

On the matter of "unity gain," as an M10 user I'd say don't worry about it. I've successfully recorded with the gain wheel anywhere from 2.5 to 10, and I couldn't tell you after the fact which recordings were done at which setting. As others have noted, peaks at -12 dB aren't at all a problem when you're recording 24-bit, but if you'd wanted to bump up the gain on the M10 by a notch or two, that wouldn't have been a problem.

[jagraham]

Forgot to say in my first post, thanks for using The Rising, as it's one of the few Springsteen songs I really like! To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much, and I tried to become a fan for years since my mom loved him. Even saw him at Bonnaroo, and it's probably the only show where I've ever fallen asleep (due to it being my first huge fest, and not the music). I just don't like his songs or voice that much. However, I absolutely love The Rising and some other songs off that album.

[PaulCayard]

but if you'd wanted to bump up the gain on the M10 by a notch or two, that wouldn't have been a problem.

Perfect! I'll try it!

To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much

I want to reassure you: I will not share the whole three-hours-and-forty-five-minutes-show :-D :-D

[rhinowing]

Forgot to say in my first post, thanks for using The Rising, as it's one of the few Springsteen songs I really like! To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much, and I tried to become a fan for years since my mom loved him. Even saw him at Bonnaroo, and it's probably the only show where I've ever fallen asleep (due to it being my first huge fest, and not the music).

I also fell asleep during that show, due to a combination of heat stroke and party favors....woke up and he was playing Santa Claus is Coming to Town...very confusing...

[Jhurlbs81]

Sounds good!  Keep at it Paul! 

[jagraham]

Forgot to say in my first post, thanks for using The Rising, as it's one of the few Springsteen songs I really like! To be honest, I don't really like "The Boss" all that much, and I tried to become a fan for years since my mom loved him. Even saw him at Bonnaroo, and it's probably the only show where I've ever fallen asleep (due to it being my first huge fest, and not the music).

I also fell asleep during that show, due to a combination of heat stroke and party favors....woke up and he was playing Santa Claus is Coming to Town...very confusing...

The Christmas song was weird to say the least. I can't believe anyone enjoys that.

[beatkilla]

Sounds good Paul....hope you can record some The Cure shows in November

[PaulCayard]

Thanks Jhurlbs81 and beatkilla!

I'm not going to any The Cure show but... never say never!
Anyway I've tickets for another big band show (RHCP) on October: your previously owned subcards will get some fresh air... :-D

[pillowman]

Sounds good Paul....hope you can record some The Cure shows in November

+1

 

greetings
pm

[pillowman]

Thanks Jhurlbs81 and beatkilla!

I'm not going to any The Cure show but... never say never!
Anyway I've tickets for another big band show (RHCP) on October: your previously owned subcards will get some fresh air... :-D

the 'SC' caps are my favourite ones ...
just used themlast night for Leæther Strip
and the result is just great.

pm

[furburger]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft.

oh for Christ sakes, some people don't buy into the "you must spend $3K on mics to get a nice recording" philosophy.

this was recorded with a $90 deck with internal mics, and it sounds just fine (actually, much better than fine):

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126906

did I mention I set the deck on the floor, by the performers feet? (i.e. about the worst spot you could tape from, other than the bathroom)

conversely: "some people lean too heavily on the money spent on equipment vs. learning optimal positioning, and how their gear actually works. and some people audio tape from where they are shooting video, which is also most often far from the stage or PA.

I have numerous shows taped from far away that sound excellent as well.

but your veiled comments are cute, I'll give you that.

like "ugly puppy" cute.

[Sloan Simpson]

Sure, just put your mics on the stage in front of Flea for that RHCP show. You'll be all set.

[daspyknows]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft.

oh for Christ sakes, some people don't buy into the "you must spend $3K on mics to get a nice recording" philosophy.

this was recorded with a $90 deck with internal mics, and it sounds just fine (actually, much better than fine):

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126906

did I mention I set the deck on the floor, by the performers feet? (i.e. about the worst spot you could tape from, other than the bathroom)

conversely: "some people lean too heavily on the money spent on equipment vs. learning optimal positioning, and how their gear actually works. and some people audio tape from where they are shooting video, which is also most often far from the stage or PA.

I have numerous shows taped from far away that sound excellent as well.

but your veiled comments are cute, I'll give you that.

like "ugly puppy" cute.

Yes, you have proven my point.   If you consider that a recording you are proud of then there is nothing I can say to make you get it.  Personally I couldn't listen to more than five minutes of that before I'd go for something better.  Better gear, better location and knowing how to use your gear makes for better recordings.  I am still waiting to hear any of your recording that sound excellent regardless of location.  You may think they do, but then again you think spending money on gear is a waste of money or you just can't afford it so you are attempting to justify your lack of funds. 

[furburger]

Sure, just put your mics on the stage in front of Flea for that RHCP show. You'll be all set.

with low gain and dual record mode, that would be easy as cake to do, and sound better than any mic stand recording.

positioning: TEN times as important as money spent

[furburger]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft.

oh for Christ sakes, some people don't buy into the "you must spend $3K on mics to get a nice recording" philosophy.

this was recorded with a $90 deck with internal mics, and it sounds just fine (actually, much better than fine):

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126906

did I mention I set the deck on the floor, by the performers feet? (i.e. about the worst spot you could tape from, other than the bathroom)

conversely: "some people lean too heavily on the money spent on equipment vs. learning optimal positioning, and how their gear actually works. and some people audio tape from where they are shooting video, which is also most often far from the stage or PA.

I have numerous shows taped from far away that sound excellent as well.

but your veiled comments are cute, I'll give you that.

like "ugly puppy" cute.

Yes, you have proven my point.   If you consider that a recording you are proud of then there is nothing I can say to make you get it.  Personally I couldn't listen to more than five minutes of that before I'd go for something better.  Better gear, better location and knowing how to use your gear makes for better recordings.  I am still waiting to hear any of your recording that sound excellent regardless of location.  You may think they do, but then again you think spending money on gear is a waste of money or you just can't afford it so you are attempting to justify your lack of funds.

not at all, I clear $5K a month on my legal hippie lettuce hobby alone, so money is not an issue.

you don't need a $10K knife to skin a cat. you can do a stellar job with a $100 knife, that is, if you know what the fuck you are doing.

not to mention you didn't even listen to it yet (you've captured 6% of it so far, so at least your curiosity is piqued), so you're proving my point quite nicely.

you can hear every element necessary on this recording, sans distortion. clarity, fingers dragging on the strings, a bit of crowd noise, but it was a full service restaurant, with clinking plates and glasses less than 3 feet from the stage.

it's YOUR side of the street if your hearing is subpar.

your faux elitism based on microphones is suspect as well.

true story.

I'm sorry that you lack the intelligence to milk a gem recording with minimalist gear.

again, that's your side of the street.

[furburger]

If you consider that a recording you are proud of then there is nothing I can say to make you get it. 

again, YOU HAVE NOT EVEN LISTENED TO IT YET.




if you're going to LIE about something so inherently simple, then why would anyone trust what a proven liar has to say about microphones?

even Ben Harper would laugh in your face





what a fucking buffoon.

[daspyknows]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft.

oh for Christ sakes, some people don't buy into the "you must spend $3K on mics to get a nice recording" philosophy.

this was recorded with a $90 deck with internal mics, and it sounds just fine (actually, much better than fine):

http://www.thetradersden.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126906

did I mention I set the deck on the floor, by the performers feet? (i.e. about the worst spot you could tape from, other than the bathroom)

conversely: "some people lean too heavily on the money spent on equipment vs. learning optimal positioning, and how their gear actually works. and some people audio tape from where they are shooting video, which is also most often far from the stage or PA.

I have numerous shows taped from far away that sound excellent as well.

but your veiled comments are cute, I'll give you that.

like "ugly puppy" cute.

Yes, you have proven my point.   If you consider that a recording you are proud of then there is nothing I can say to make you get it.  Personally I couldn't listen to more than five minutes of that before I'd go for something better.  Better gear, better location and knowing how to use your gear makes for better recordings.  I am still waiting to hear any of your recording that sound excellent regardless of location.  You may think they do, but then again you think spending money on gear is a waste of money or you just can't afford it so you are attempting to justify your lack of funds.

not at all, I clear $5K a month on my legal hippie lettuce hobby alone, so money is not an issue.

you don't need a $10K knife to skin a cat. you can do a stellar job with a $100 knife, that is, if you know what the fuck you are doing.

not to mention you didn't even listen to it yet (you've captured 6% of it so far, so at least your curiosity is piqued), so you're proving my point quite nicely.

you can hear every element necessary on this recording, sans distortion. clarity, fingers dragging on the strings, a bit of crowd noise, but it was a full service restaurant, with clinking plates and glasses less than 3 feet from the stage.

it's YOUR side of the street if your hearing is subpar.

your faux elitism based on microphones is suspect as well.

true story.

I'm sorry that you lack the intelligence to milk a gem recording with minimalist gear.

again, that's your side of the street.

$5k a month.  wow, big dollars.  That's $60K a year, definitely not big enough dollars to afford a big boy rig. 

Dude I downloaded a sample, couldn't listen to more than a few minutes of the shrill vocals.  If it was worthy I'd download more but 2 songs was more than enough.  It is far from a gem recording.  Slightly better than an iphone recording, I'll give you that but nothing more.  You haven't listened to my recordings and you won't accept an A/B blind comparison.  I'd throw my worst recordings against your best but you will have a lame excuse why it's not a valid comparison.  You seem to think I don't know what I'm doing but without listening to anything that just proves you don't know what you are doing.  Tossing a DR-2D on the stage isn't taping.  It involves a bit more and quality gear is one key part of it.  You don't need a $10K knife to skin a cat but you do need quality gear to make excellent recordings.  Location is another key component and putting a recorder with internal mics just isn't the best way to do it.  A spot dead center in front of the soundboard, a spot in front of the stacks or a spot in front of the balcony is going to make a better recording than tossing a $90 bit bucket on the edge of the stage.  You won't accept that so its just a waste of time.  Flame away and demonstrate your ignorance and continue to pollute the thread of a new taper who did a damn good job on his first try and is eager to improve his recordings by reaching out to those who have more experience.  Obviously you have learned all you need to know.

[daspyknows]

If you consider that a recording you are proud of then there is nothing I can say to make you get it. 

again, YOU HAVE NOT EVEN LISTENED TO IT YET.




if you're going to LIE about something so inherently simple, then why would anyone trust what a proven liar has to say about microphones?

even Ben Harper would laugh in your face





what a fucking buffoon.

2 tracks downloaded, sampled and deleted.  NOT WORTHY OF FREE BANDWIDTH.  No need to lie about it.  I, at least have given your garbage a listen.

[furburger]

$5k a month.  wow, big dollars.  That's $60K a year, definitely not big enough dollars to afford a big boy rig. 

Dude I downloaded a sample, couldn't listen to more than a few minutes of the shrill vocals.  If it was worthy I'd download more but 2 songs was more than enough.  It is far from a gem recording.  Slightly better than an iphone recording, I'll give you that but nothing more.  You haven't listened to my recordings and you won't accept an A/B blind comparison.  I'd throw my worst recordings against your best but you will have a lame excuse why it's not a valid comparison.  You seem to think I don't know what I'm doing but without listening to anything that just proves you don't know what you are doing.  Tossing a DR-2D on the stage isn't taping.  It involves a bit more and quality gear is one key part of it.  You don't need a $10K knife to skin a cat but you do need quality gear to make excellent recordings.  Location is another key component and putting a recorder with internal mics just isn't the best way to do it.  A spot dead center in front of the soundboard, a spot in front of the stacks or a spot in front of the balcony is going to make a better recording than tossing a $90 bit bucket on the edge of the stage.  You won't accept that so its just a waste of time.  Flame away and demonstrate your ignorance and continue to pollute the thread of a new taper who did a damn good job on his first try and is eager to improve his recordings by reaching out to those who have more experience.  Obviously you have learned all you need to know.

I already PROVED that you are an outright liar, so what you have to say about expensive rigs is considered suspect as well.

you can not listen to something that you have not downloaded.

that said, if you think my 'hobby' is my sole source of income, you are sorely mistaken.

not to mention, if you say the vocals are "shrill", you are as deaf as you are dumb, as it plays back at 100% volume with great clarity.

expensive setups are NOT necessary to pull excellent sounding recordings.

I'm sorry you fell for the con job.

[furburger]

2 tracks downloaded, sampled and deleted.  NOT WORTHY OF FREE BANDWIDTH.  No need to lie about it.  I, at least have given your garbage a listen.

your recordings sound the SAME as mine, and you spent 20 times as much to do so.

PT Barnum was right.

[daspyknows]

2 tracks downloaded, sampled and deleted.  NOT WORTHY OF FREE BANDWIDTH.  No need to lie about it.  I, at least have given your garbage a listen.

your recordings sound the SAME as mine, and you spent 20 times as much to do so.

PT Barnum was right.

hahahaha                       You would never know.  You haven't heard any.

[aaronji]

Can't you guys start your own thread in which to sling mud?  Very "newbie friendly" when the OP wants some critique of his first recording and you derail yet another thread with this crap...

[aaronji]

Telling OP he won't be a "big boy" if he doesn't earn more than $60K is not exactly newb friendly.  Has daspy won a Grammy, or did I miss something?

Please re-read my post and the use of the plural therein.  No innocents in this particular battle...

[daspyknows]

I typically try and get approximately halfway between soundboard and stage dead center.  Impressive effort first time out though.  There have been tapers who have done it for many years making "excellent" recordings who don't do as well and aren't interested in improving their craft.

This was my comment.  I get flamed.  Give me a break. 

[nulldogmas]

Can't you guys start your own thread in which to sling mud?  Very "newbie friendly" when the OP wants some critique of his first recording and you derail yet another thread with this crap...

Seconded. Not taking sides in Daspy vs. Furburger (or, rather, I could take a side, but that's not the point), but this thread isn't the place for it.

[Modifab]

[/quote]
I also fell asleep during that show, due to a combination of heat stroke and party favors....woke up and he was playing Santa Claus is Coming to Town...very confusing...
[/quote]

Haaahaa!!

[bombdiggity]

if you say the vocals are "shrill", you are as deaf as you are dumb, as it plays back at 100% volume with great clarity.

 

shrill
SHril/
adjective
1. (of a voice or sound) high-pitched and piercing.

Um noise can be shrill at any "% volume" from 0 to 100.  Things that are shrill will indeed often seem to have "great clarity" (very clearly shrill).

Greater precision and understanding of terminology and the characteristics of sound and perception might reduce constant misunderstandings... or not...