Topic: I'm Officially Retired...

[stevetoney]

...from stealthing.

So, I got into this thing we do as a stealther.  Recorded hundreds of shows that way.  Then I sold my stuff because I needed money, but also because stealthing wore me out. 

There's been some shows come through over the last couple years I really wanted to go to, but dumb ole taper-me, I'm not interested in going to shows I can't record.  So over the last couple of years, I've gradually picked up gear that would allow me to record in stealth mode.

The problem is...ever since having all of the gear to do it, I've seen AT LEAST 20 shows and I pass them up, because I just have no fun at a show where I stealth. 

I've even gone so far as to have all my gear packed and ready to walk out the door, but then turn right around and stay home. 

Last week a band came through town (Cloud Cult from Minn/St. Paul area) that I've been looking forward to seeing ever since the last time I saw them in Pittsburgh 3 years ago.  They'd scheduled a gig here last year and I was really disappointed when it was cancelled.  So they finally came through last weekend and I bailed...didn't want to stealth it.  Maybe they'll be back on some festival lineups like they were when I first saw them at 10KLF in 2009.

I guess it's time to face facts and declare myself officially retired from stealthing forever.  If the trend here in the US ever changes back to no open taping, I think I'll die.

[deadheadcorey]

I give it up to all the stealth tapers. that is some hard work. I'm sure it takes a toll on ya over the years. these last 4 years back in the game open taping, taken a toll on me

[hi and lo]

I'd probably feel a lot better after every show if I stealth taped... I'd probably drink a whole lot less.

Anways, I've done exactly two stealth without guilt shows in the last 4 years and can't see myself doing any more anytime soon, even though I've got plenty of gear to do so. For me, it really has nothing to do with enjoyment of the show and everything to do with respect for the venues I frequent and relationships formed since becoming an nyctaper contributor. It's amazing how cooperative most venues have been to us and you couldn't pay me to jeopardize those relationships by stealth taping.

I'd probably still stealth tape a festival or unqiue event held outside a normal venue, but otherwise I'm pretty much committed to playing it by the rules or not at all.

[stevetoney]

I'd probably feel a lot better after every show if I stealth taped... I'd probably drink a whole lot less.

Anways, I've done exactly two stealth without guilt shows in the last 4 years and can't see myself doing any more anytime soon, even though I've got plenty of gear to do so. For me, it really has nothing to do with enjoyment of the show and everything to do with respect for the venues I frequent and relationships formed since becoming an nyctaper contributor. It's amazing how cooperative most venues have been to us and you couldn't pay me to jeopardize those relationships by stealth taping.

I'd probably still stealth tape a festival or unqiue event held outside a normal venue, but otherwise I'm pretty much committed to playing it by the rules or not at all.

Thanks for this comment.  This definitely factors in for me as well. 

There are four venues here in Pittsburgh that I tape in fairly regularly and two of those are venues that I'd have a total guilt trip about if I stealthed because of my friendships with the principals.  The other two have never given me a problem so even though I don't have personal relationships with the principals, it would definitely be disrespectful to record a band that's not taper friendly.  The guilt trip is one of the factors contributing to the buzz kill I mentioned earlier that I feel when I've bailed at the very end on the night of the show I was thinking about stealthing.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

You know...  as soon as you sell your gear, King Crimson will announce their tour...   

Terry

[stevetoney]

Terry...one of the reasons I love taping is because the music I love the most is played right in front of me.  I paid to see U2 and Green Day in stadium venues in the last 3 years, but that's it over the last ten or more years...and neither of those shows inspired me at all other than being with people I care about (I can't get them to go to shows with me otherwise since they know nothing about the music I like). 

There's Phish of course but (cover your eyes and ears) I probably won't worry about recording another Phish show because even those Phish shows I've recorded, I end up listening to the LivePhish release alot more than any of the recordings...with the exception of a good number of Taylor or Chris's FOB recordings.  (All of the God's consipired together in a blissful moment with regards to Taylor's Tahoe Tweezer...that's a Hall Of Fame recording right there.)  Section recordings are fine and I'm glad people are allowed to record, but generally I'm reaching for the LivePhish option if I have it available to me...I know I know. 

I'm not a King Crimson fan...and otherwise I can't really think of a reunion that I'd die to tape.  There are lots of dead musicians in that category, but that's not exactly pertinent... LOL.

EDIT:  I take it back, I'd give it up for a chance to record the original Meters lineup.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Terry...one of the reasons I love taping is because the music I love the most is played right in front of me.  I paid to see U2 and Green Day in stadium venues in the last 3 years, but that's it over the last ten or more years...and neither of those shows inspired me at all other than being with people I care about (I can't get them to go to shows with me otherwise since they know nothing about the music I like). 

There's Phish of course but (cover your eyes and ears) I probably won't worry about recording another Phish show because even those Phish shows I've recorded, I end up listening to the LivePhish release alot more than any of the recordings...with the exception of a good number of Taylor or Chris's FOB recordings.  (All of the God's consipired together in a blissful moment with regards to Taylor's Tahoe Tweezer...that's a Hall Of Fame recording right there.)  Section recordings are fine and I'm glad people are allowed to record, but generally I'm reaching for the LivePhish option if I have it available to me...I know I know. 

I'm not a King Crimson fan...and otherwise I can't really think of a reunion that I'd die to tape.  There are lots of dead musicians in that category, but that's not exactly pertinent... LOL.

EDIT:  I take it back, I'd give it up for a chance to record the original Meters lineup.

LOL!  There is a reason I've never taped a PH show...

Terry

[hoppedup]

I've stealthed a few times. The last few were for convenience more than necessity. I taped at a festival with sixteen stages/venues. There were several things I wanted to tape and time did not allow for set up and breakdown in between. So I geared up and had a blast. The tapes turned out pretty damn good. Except the one where I inadvertently switched the recorder to internal mics and taped from a shorts pocket facing backwards. Talk about sounding like ass.

I am not concerned with respect for venues or artists. If I stealth a non-friendly band, it is for my ears only. I open tape to share. If I want something non-taper friendly bad enough to stealth it, I won't feel bad keeping it to myself. Stealthing is more work and and less enjoyment. If I stand motionless for two hours without a pee break I don't feel guilty hoarding.

I have been to several shows of artists both open, neutral and anti-taping this year and left the gear at home. It feels strange at first, but the feelings of regret at not having taped do subside. I actually have no regret whatsoever that I didn't tape my first (and last) Keller Williams show Sunday night.

[adrianf74]

I have been to several shows of artists both open, neutral and anti-taping this year and left the gear at home. It feels strange at first, but the feelings of regret at not having taped do subside.

Really?  I can count the times where I took a break due to "taper burnout" and eventually bumped into a show I'd wished I'd taped THEN and NOW.   I can count about 5 or 6 shows (out of about 30-40 during my last break in the mid-to-late 2000's) where I wish I'd rolled and am still bummed that I hadn't today.

It does get easier... until you encounter the above.

And, to agree with ToneDeaf, stealthing is often more of a pain in the ass than it's worth especially if a crowd is badly behaved.

[ravingandrooling]

Every time I start thinking that stealthing is more of a pain in the ass than it's worth, I pull a recording that changes my mind.  My tolerance for douchebaggery in the crowd has gone down though.  Maybe that just comes with being old and cranky. 

[adrianf74]

Maybe that just comes with being old and cranky.

QFT. +1.

[stevetoney]

I've stealthed a few times. The last few were for convenience more than necessity. I taped at a festival with sixteen stages/venues. There were several things I wanted to tape and time did not allow for set up and breakdown in between. So I geared up and had a blast. The tapes turned out pretty damn good. Except the one where I inadvertently switched the recorder to internal mics and taped from a shorts pocket facing backwards. Talk about sounding like ass.

I think that there's a shortage of good fart recordings.  Tape on, my friend...and please post the best fart recordings...make sure there's no bass roll off.

I am not concerned with respect for venues or artists. If I stealth a non-friendly band, it is for my ears only. I open tape to share. If I want something non-taper friendly bad enough to stealth it, I won't feel bad keeping it to myself. Stealthing is more work and and less enjoyment. If I stand motionless for two hours without a pee break I don't feel guilty hoarding.

FWIW, I'm OK with this.  I hope my earlier message didn't imply that others should feel guilty for stealthing.  My own guilt feelings stem simply from the fact that I've never discussed it with my friend that runs the venue...he's a music fan first and foremost so I think he wouldn't have a big problem with it if he knew I wasn't sharing, but since I haven't run it by him, I don't feel good doing it since I respect the shit out of the guy.

I have been to several shows of artists both open, neutral and anti-taping this year and left the gear at home. It feels strange at first, but the feelings of regret at not having taped do subside. I actually have no regret whatsoever that I didn't tape my first (and last) Keller Williams show Sunday night.

LOL about your Keller comment.  You're the first person I've ever heard that didn't like him.  (I lie.) 

As far as not taping, my issue is less about whether or not I tape, it's more a fear or phobia of attending a 'life experience' mind blowing show without my gear.  Stupid as it sounds...as an old guy/taper that's attended so many of these shows over the years, I'd almost rather not be there at all than regret not having taped those shows.

[hoppedup]

I have been to several shows of artists both open, neutral and anti-taping this year and left the gear at home. It feels strange at first, but the feelings of regret at not having taped do subside.

Really?  I can count the times where I took a break due to "taper burnout" and eventually bumped into a show I'd wished I'd taped THEN and NOW.   I can count about 5 or 6 shows (out of about 30-40 during my last break in the mid-to-late 2000's) where I wish I'd rolled and am still bummed that I hadn't today.

Disclaimer: I have been on an emotional roller coaster the last year and a half after being blindsided by a request for divorce. Regret is a negative emotion and it is tough to let go, but sometimes you have to do it for your own sanity. I still spend a lot of days wishing I had done things differently with my marriage. It really puts the recording stuff in perspective.

I've stealthed a few times. The last few were for convenience more than necessity. I taped at a festival with sixteen stages/venues. There were several things I wanted to tape and time did not allow for set up and breakdown in between. So I geared up and had a blast. The tapes turned out pretty damn good. Except the one where I inadvertently switched the recorder to internal mics and taped from a shorts pocket facing backwards. Talk about sounding like ass.

I think that there's a shortage of good fart recordings.  Tape on, my friend...and please post the best fart recordings...make sure there's no bass roll off.

I don't know about the bass roll off, sometimes they can be a little muddy and need some cleaning up in post. 

I have been to several shows of artists both open, neutral and anti-taping this year and left the gear at home. It feels strange at first, but the feelings of regret at not having taped do subside. I actually have no regret whatsoever that I didn't tape my first (and last) Keller Williams show Sunday night.

LOL about your Keller comment.  You're the first person I've ever heard that didn't like him.  (I lie.)

In all fairness the first set was solo "loopy" shit.  Jeff Sipe played drums and Gibb Droll guitar in the second set and Keller stayed on the bass and didn't loop anything. That was good. Just don't think I could make it through another solo set from him.

eta: And Adrian, I know you've been through a lot lately. Sometimes real life puts the whole hobby thing in a different light.

[404 Not Found]

At a ripe age of AARP membership, I only record if have permission. I have more or less abandoned the stealth means of recording.  Stealth was always part of the challenge and fun back in the day, but over the past years (decades +), I find that the challenge is to establish contact with the artists and or band managers months - weeks prior to a show coming to town requesting access to openly record.  Permission does not always happen, but I have rarely been turned down, especially when I am able to supply the performer(s) and management with a copy after the performance.  Downside, if it really is a downside, at times they may not wish for it to be distributed openly in many the case (LMA or Torrent) or I have been asked to delay sharing due to their commercial release coming up. If they decide to release it, then I get the recording credits of which I have a few under the belt.

There are creative means for which one can present ones self in a better light to gain open access recording. This poses the greater challenge for me at least when comparing it to the old days of smuggling recording gear into a venue.  Mellowing with age?

Recently I had contacted Nick Waterhouse on FB and asked for permission to record him in Philly, he gave me the green light.  When I had a chance to talk to him in person, Nick's stand out comment to me after the show was:  "I love Tapers"!  I was the only person recording.  I came in and set up as I wanted with no problems from venue staff and was able to supply Nick with a copy, as well as the opening band.  Point being is that it made for a better recording than it would have been if I had been is stealth mode and allowed me to also enjoy the show and not look like a stiff all night.

Just my spin on the challenges facing us today in re. to many of the artist's, bands and venues.

[George]

Every time I start thinking that stealthing is more of a pain in the ass than it's worth, I pull a recording that changes my mind.  My tolerance for douchebaggery in the crowd has gone down though.  Maybe that just comes with being old and cranky.

+T  Gotta agree 100%.  Even with my back killing me from standing still, it's still worth it when you get home and=

[blg]

I've been thinking about this thread since it was started yesterday, and for me, the day I retire from stealth taping is the day I retire completely. I suppose maybe if I lived somewhere else, that wouldn't be the case, but i have no loyality to most of the venues I frequent where some just assume charge you for the privilege and I have no desire to try and jump through some of the hoops my fellow open tapers in the area have to deal with.  Everything I tape is stealth, the stuff i've posted on LMA, and the times i've plugged into the board have been with artist consent, but not with venue consent.  I can't say i've ever felt guilty about it.

Although the things other things people have mentioned annoy me, i like doing it and it keeps me focused on the show. I didn't tape 2 of the 3 Pearl Jam shows I saw last year since they release official boards and it felt completely weird not taping and it actually affected my enjoyment of the shows in a negative way.  I also like the challenge of making a good recording under these circumstances.

Anyway, just my .02.

[adrianf74]

Disclaimer: I have been on an emotional roller coaster the last year and a half after being blindsided by a request for divorce. Regret is a negative emotion and it is tough to let go, but sometimes you have to do it for your own sanity. I still spend a lot of days wishing I had done things differently with my marriage. It really puts the recording stuff in perspective.

eta: And Adrian, I know you've been through a lot lately. Sometimes real life puts the whole hobby thing in a different light.

I get it - I've been down the divorce road myself; lucky for me (I guess) is that I never let taping get in the way of family life.  Even with everything STILL going on (and will be until the bitter end), my other half has asked me *NOT* to NOT RECORD because she enjoys listening to the shows later on.  Talk about a keeper....

[acidjack]

I've been thinking about this thread since it was started yesterday, and for me, the day I retire from stealth taping is the day I retire completely. I suppose maybe if I lived somewhere else, that wouldn't be the case, but i have no loyality to most of the venues I frequent where some just assume charge you for the privilege and I have no desire to try and jump through some of the hoops my fellow open tapers in the area have to deal with.  Everything I tape is stealth, the stuff i've posted on LMA, and the times i've plugged into the board have been with artist consent, but not with venue consent.  I can't say i've ever felt guilty about it.

Although the things other things people have mentioned annoy me, i like doing it and it keeps me focused on the show. I didn't tape 2 of the 3 Pearl Jam shows I saw last year since they release official boards and it felt completely weird not taping and it actually affected my enjoyment of the shows in a negative way.  I also like the challenge of making a good recording under these circumstances.

Anyway, just my .02.

This is a good point. Along with musical taste being a factor, the "need" to stealth is determined by venues and general attitudes as well. BLG and I like a lot of the same bands; despite that fact, stuff I can tape open here in New York, he cannot where he lives. There's always that hope that some aspiring taper can "open up" a previously anti-taping environment, but that has its limits. In my completely anecdotal experience, taping has always been better received in New York, the South and certain other places than in places like LA or even DC. A lot of it has to do with whether the venues are controlled by cool people, uncool people, or by massive corporations, among other factors.

[Chuck]

I've convinced myself to buy stealth rigs over the years and have almost never used them. I still have one too and it just sits and gathers dust. I just don't record if the band doesn't allow open taping. For the most part, the music and bands that I like are cool with taping.

[tooldvn]

Disclaimer: I have been on an emotional roller coaster the last year and a half after being blindsided by a request for divorce. Regret is a negative emotion and it is tough to let go, but sometimes you have to do it for your own sanity. I still spend a lot of days wishing I had done things differently with my marriage. It really puts the recording stuff in perspective.

eta: And Adrian, I know you've been through a lot lately. Sometimes real life puts the whole hobby thing in a different light.

I get it - I've been down the divorce road myself; lucky for me (I guess) is that I never let taping get in the way of family life.  Even with everything STILL going on (and will be until the bitter end), my other half has asked me *NOT* to NOT RECORD because she enjoys listening to the shows later on.  Talk about a keeper....

Damn, are we the same person?  Sounds exactly like my quasi-ex.  Still married (for financial reasons), not together though.   I had taken a break for years for life and kids and she's the one really pushing me to get back out there and have a little fun.  Sometimes she'll even still go with me to a show and help with whatever I need (keep talkers away).

Back to the original discussion,  I primarily stealth because 98% of the bands I tape do not allow. I'm so jealous of the comradery some of you have seeing each other at sections & festivals.  I'm just not into that type of music, unfortunately that means that atmosphere isn't there either.   I've had limited success in contacting bands and getting permission and wish I could be better at that.  I don't feel guilty about stealthing at all because for the most part I only record for myself & kickdown to a few close pals.  Like others have said I don't want to miss that special moment in history.  I will post a special song or two if something neat happened that I think fans would dig.  I would take it down if the artist asked, but I fully believe posting live music only helps the artist attract more fans.   I have a feeling a lot of these artists are going to be glad there were tapers like us when they are doing whatever passes for VH1's Behind the Music in 30 years ;-)

That all being said, I too am feeling my age when stealth taping.  It's certainly getting harder to stand still and deal with idiots for 2 hours.  My feet and back ache like they never did before.  I find myself considering seated balcony positions over floor positions more and more.  Sigh.

[nameloc01]

Disclaimer: I have been on an emotional roller coaster the last year and a half after being blindsided by a request for divorce. Regret is a negative emotion and it is tough to let go, but sometimes you have to do it for your own sanity. I still spend a lot of days wishing I had done things differently with my marriage. It really puts the recording stuff in perspective.

eta: And Adrian, I know you've been through a lot lately. Sometimes real life puts the whole hobby thing in a different light.

I get it - I've been down the divorce road myself; lucky for me (I guess) is that I never let taping get in the way of family life.  Even with everything STILL going on (and will be until the bitter end), my other half has asked me *NOT* to NOT RECORD because she enjoys listening to the shows later on.  Talk about a keeper....

Thats pretty cool. My ex-wife of 10 years, is (still) convinced (and we've been divorced for 4 years now) that when I was out taping shows (some involving traveling) that I was in fact - not out taping/seeing shows- I was running around with "other women", never mind I was lugging around audio gear, posters, had recordings,tickets and a lot of times photos of me with other guys (tapers). She blurted that out once after I had gotten back from a weekend trip and my jaw about hit the floor..she simply could not wrap her head around the idea that a grown man would actually do what I was doing (taping) .  I'm kind of laughing as I'm writing this.. I still can't believe she thinks that. ( and no, I actually never, ever cheated on her..and yes, I'm still taping shows)

[adrianf74]

Disclaimer: I have been on an emotional roller coaster the last year and a half after being blindsided by a request for divorce. Regret is a negative emotion and it is tough to let go, but sometimes you have to do it for your own sanity. I still spend a lot of days wishing I had done things differently with my marriage. It really puts the recording stuff in perspective.

eta: And Adrian, I know you've been through a lot lately. Sometimes real life puts the whole hobby thing in a different light.

I get it - I've been down the divorce road myself; lucky for me (I guess) is that I never let taping get in the way of family life.  Even with everything STILL going on (and will be until the bitter end), my other half has asked me *NOT* to NOT RECORD because she enjoys listening to the shows later on.  Talk about a keeper....

Thats pretty cool. My ex-wife of 10 years, is (still) convinced (and we've been divorced for 4 years now) that when I was out taping shows (some involving traveling) that I was in fact - not out taping/seeing shows- I was running around with "other women", never mind I was lugging around audio gear, posters, had recordings,tickets and a lot of times photos of me with other guys (tapers). She blurted that out once after I had gotten back from a weekend trip and my jaw about hit the floor..she simply could not wrap her head around the idea that a grown man would actually do what I was doing (taping) .  I'm kind of laughing as I'm writing this.. I still can't believe she thinks that. ( and no, I actually never, ever cheated on her..and yes, I'm still taping shows)

I know we're getting OT here but I'm really fortunate to have somebody who, even in declining health that will eventually claim her life, still wants me to record regardless.  She's also 100% _ALWAYS_ trusted me which is a welcome change from my previous marriage where I was always guilty before innocent (much like the situation you mentioned above).  Trust me, I can fully relate to what you're saying.  I just wished I didn't have to go through the other crap right now. 

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

I think I've managed to maintain my sanity while stealthing by following a few rules.

1. Don't let idiots/assholes ruin having a good time at a show. Yep, they might have ruined the recording, but once that starts happening I write it off. Sometimes it turns out you can't even hear them.
2. Occasionally I'll be on the fence if I want to record a stealth show. I have shirt with mics in the collar and run a super minimal rig. I put little to no effort in and hope for the best. At the very least I have the recording "for my records."
3. For shows I skip recording and then wish I did, I try to put behind me as well. Remember the vast majority of people at the show will never get to listen to it again, and they live. There is always next time and you can't have it all.

Yep there are times when I take recording undercover very seriously. I've learned what bands are worthy of this and prepare myself in advance.

I think it's important to accept that it's okay to take a break from both stealthing shows and open shows.

[hoppedup]

I think it's important to accept that it's okay to take a break from both stealthing shows and open shows.

x2

I don't believe I will ever retire from stealthing completely. I will be a festival in September. Probably nothing before then.

[perks]

I'm officially retiring from the rat race on April 15, 2028. Save the date. I'm working on getting Van Halen to play my retirement party and allow open taping. All tapers are invited. Then me and Mick are going to wing on over to London and jam with the Stones.

Hopefully that will free up my schedule so I can attempt to hit as many shows as Z-man does.

[robeti]

Here in Europe the kind of music I like is non-open 99% of the time. There is no other choice than to stealth.

[Scooter123]

Pul-eeze.  Stealth taping wore you out?  I mean how hard is it? You shove a couple mikes into a hat and press the "record button." 

You STFU, but I STFU when I'm not taping. 

I guess you can't turn your head and check out the babes, but other than that how difficult is it?

I've been stealth taping since 1970--my first rig was a cassette with a Sony stereo mike duct taped to a Popeil Pocket Fisherman Pole.  Its actually gotten easier.  As Ron Popeil would say, I just set it and forget it. 

Maybe I'm a little tongue in  cheek but I urge you to reconsider.  Open Taping is on the decline and we need more experienced tapers. 

[obaaron]

It seems to me that open taping is NOT on the decline per se.....more smaller, regional bands (non-jambands) seem open to it now than in the 90's I think and see value in allowing their fans to record

[nameloc01]

I've been stealth taping since 1970--my first rig was a cassette with a Sony stereo mike duct taped to a Popeil Pocket Fisherman Pole. 

awesome.. happen to have any kind of old photos of yourself in "fishing mode"..?? 

[ccage]

I haven't gone 007 since 2007.
I had declared myself retired until I purchased Tonedeaf's mk4s and some nbob actives last year.

Now I'm thinking I may try again.
 
   

[stevetoney]

Pul-eeze.  Stealth taping wore you out?  I mean how hard is it? You shove a couple mikes into a hat and press the "record button." 

You STFU, but I STFU when I'm not taping. 

I guess you can't turn your head and check out the babes, but other than that how difficult is it?

I've been stealth taping since 1970--my first rig was a cassette with a Sony stereo mike duct taped to a Popeil Pocket Fisherman Pole.  Its actually gotten easier.  As Ron Popeil would say, I just set it and forget it. 

Maybe I'm a little tongue in  cheek but I urge you to reconsider.  Open Taping is on the decline and we need more experienced tapers.

The 'wore me out' part basically meant that, for me, after maybe a couple hundred shows, stealthing eventually killed my desire to go out to shows anymore.  Enough so that when I needed cash, it wasn't that big a deal at that point in my recording life that I sold all my stuff and got out. 

Hard work?  Yeah, I agree with you...not hardly.  As someone else has said, it's more being diligent and focused. 

But yeah standing there in silence even if you feel like letting go an occasional woo woo, ignoring a friend that might come up and say hi, having to hold it when half way through the show you already feel a need to pee in a cup, it's just not where I'm at in taping anymore.

I think another difference for me is that, when it comes to a show, for me it's never been only about getting a good recording.  I don't go to shows just to record...I'm there to enjoy a show too.  That's why I've never really been too bothered by the people that alot of tapers consider douchebags.  Even though I completely understand the POV and empathize with the trials and tribulations of my taper brothers, I've never had too much of a problem with anyone at shows that are just there having fun, though there are certainly exceptions. 

I'm not disagreeing with anything that the guys that like stealthing have said, I think it's fantastic that people do it.   If it was the only option available to me, I'd probably be doing it but I think my approach would probably be like Fatah Rourke's.

[Marshall7]

stealthing is often more of a pain in the ass than it's worth especially if a crowd is badly behaved.

And to disagree...I often find open taping is more of a pain in the ass.

[bombdiggity]

In my completely anecdotal experience, taping has always been better received in New York, the South and certain other places than in places like LA or even DC. A lot of it has to do with whether the venues are controlled by cool people, uncool people, or by massive corporations, among other factors.

FWIW, don't slag DC...  Even the 9:30 will let you record (where they want you) if the band says it's OK and signs a waiver saying they'll pay the 9:30 $5K if they release any of it...  LOL.  Most of the places here are cool if the band is though. 

It does depend a lot on who is running things but I don't think that's geographical.  Just luck of the draw (other than LA as I understand it). 

There are friendly places and unfriendly places and I find that friendly/unfriendly factor extends to almost everything about them (much more than just recording). 

I pretty much only go to places I like the vibe of.  If it seems likely I can record open while there I ask and go that route.  If that's going to be an issue or the venue doesn't allow I just go low key.  It really has no impact on my enjoyment of the show either way (though does impact how much crap I need to drag along with me).  It's like sleepwalking at this point...  Most of my friends who are regulars I couldn't tell they were taping if I didn't know they were.  Some of the musicians here who know me used to ask me afterward if I'd recorded something when I didn't have the stand up or a camera running.  Now they just know, even if they couldn't tell... 

But yeah, if it isn't fun for you don't do it... 

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

The 'wore me out' part basically meant that, for me, after maybe a couple hundred shows, stealthing eventually killed my desire to go out to shows anymore.  Enough so that when I needed cash, it wasn't that big a deal at that point in my recording life that I sold all my stuff and got out.

As the best of friends, let me be the first to say you're a pussy.  I've had only one chance to tape a decent show in the last 4 years (Fu Manchu - shut out by the band), so I have no sympathy for you! 

But I hear you on the "wore out" part...  I guess it was just Life, but I started to tape less, then the music scene I liked dropped off in Raleigh, and then we had kids...

Take a break...  Maybe you'll get back to it one day...

Terry

[yug du nord]

Stretch out..  go pee..  don't step on any toes..  get the goods..  don't step on any toes..  go pee..  stretch out.
The future will appreciate it!

[andy_landy]

Thats pretty cool. My ex-wife of 10 years, is (still) convinced (and we've been divorced for 4 years now) that when I was out taping shows (some involving traveling) that I was in fact - not out taping/seeing shows- I was running around with "other women"

although she never came out and said it directly, i know my ex-wife felt the same.

the handful of times i had technical issues and didn't manage to successfully record... i know she was thinking "he could have been doing ANYTHING while he was out"

retired? not a bit of it. yes i am doing more open than stealth these days, and yes there are times i deliberately choose to not record (either when i am playing or doing foh - i find recording is a distraction from the real task in hand)... but i can't see myself retiring any time soon

[stevetoney]

The 'wore me out' part basically meant that, for me, after maybe a couple hundred shows, stealthing eventually killed my desire to go out to shows anymore.  Enough so that when I needed cash, it wasn't that big a deal at that point in my recording life that I sold all my stuff and got out.

As the best of friends, let me be the first to say you're a pussy.  I've had only one chance to tape a decent show in the last 4 years (Fu Manchu - shut out by the band), so I have no sympathy for you! 

...and here's some friend-love back atcha.   

Here's what I've recorded over the last week plus.

Manhattan Project 4/10
The Chopshop 4/12
Deltanine 4/16
Pigions Playing Ping Pong 4/16
Manitoa 4/17
The Mantras 4/17
Turquaz 4/19
Alan Evans Trio 4/19

Five nights out recording over the stretch of 10 days.  Two of those events were outta town and required drives of 75 and 90 minutes each way.  The last four years I've averaged 150 recordings a year.  I'm working towards my 700th show uploaded to archive.

Pussy indeed!   .

[stevetoney]

Take a break...  Maybe you'll get back to it one day...

By the way Terry.  I think you might have quoted my response out of context.  I haven't retired from taping, I've only retired from stealthing.  The OP thread title said that, but apparently someone was bothered that I brought up a stealth subject, so I changed the thread title so at least the word isn't in the title.   

[cashandkerouac]

what about Jerry Band recordings as one example?  for those of us who like that kind of thing... aren't we all very glad that people didn't play by the rules?  sometimes  is the right thing to do.

[bombdiggity]

By the way Terry.  I think you might have quoted my response out of context.  I haven't retired from taping, I've only retired from stealthing.  The OP thread title said that, but apparently someone was bothered that I brought up a stealth subject, so I changed the thread title so at least the word isn't in the title.   

That edit to the title made the subject much less clear. It becomes clearer reading through the thread more carefully but I sensed some confusion re: the subject. 

[Cobiwan]

Take a break...  Maybe you'll get back to it one day...

By the way Terry.  I think you might have quoted my response out of context.  I haven't retired from taping, I've only retired from stealthing.  The OP thread title said that, but apparently someone was bothered that I brought up a stealth subject, so I changed the thread title so at least the word isn't in the title.   

Wait.... We're NOT supposed to say stealth? Really? I thought we were all tapers here?

[yates7592]

Well I am 100% stealth, but can understand why you might retire after so many shows. I'm fairly light at 1 show a month typical so I don't get burn out. But I have to say I would not want to go open; mainly because the bands and venues I tape in would likely not permit it, but also, sad as I am, I get a bit of an adrenilin kick out of a stealth operation.   

[jb63]

There are creative means for which one can present ones self in a better light to gain open access recording.
This poses the greater challenge for me at least when comparing it to the old days of smuggling recording gear into a venue.  Mellowing with age?

Nick's stand out comment to me after the show was:  "I love Tapers"!  I was the only person recording.  I came in and set up as I wanted with no problems from venue staff and was able to supply Nick with a copy, as well as the opening band.  Point being is that it made for a better recording than it would have been if I had been is stealth mode and allowed me to also enjoy the show and not look like a stiff all night.

That made my day.
I don't think there would be this many responses if we knew it was a thread about stealthing. (auto correct just told me I typed "steal thing(s)"

Its funny, in NYC, before everyone had a phone with email, if you had time, you could arrive early-- BEFORE the band actually showed up, talk to the the venue, have a few beers, get the best seat, and then the manager would tell the bandleader that you were there to tape and they'd come out and talk to you and you could either do it or not. Before Bill Frisell's success, you could actually tape at the Village Vanguard. Most shows didn't sell out there and if you could just get off work and show up and drink a bit. Lorraine was happy you were a customer and there were something like 40 people who would show up and 5 of them would have mics on the tables...

Musicians were happy you were there and excited you showed interest. My friend Pete, who got me into the whole crazy scene, as recently as 1999 saw Marc Ribot after we were leaving a Tom Waits show at the Beacon theatre and Marc asked, "you still going around taping shows?" Now Marc is an avid anti-anything that doesn't get me paid activist. (And he's right to feel that way.) Don't even HOPE to tape at the Vanguard today, in the day of phone-sized 24/96 recorders.

I think it all boils down to intent some days, or maybe time & money. The world is really big and nobody's paying for music the way they used to, so there is a real backlash against taping in some aspects of the "industry."

Now that I have a kid and I'm wrenched away from the whole scene of anything I actually care about music-wise, there aren't as many shows that I will actually go to.
And fewer that I can actually make it to before the opening act. In fact, now that I think about it, if I had to show up early at a bar I'd be too toasted to make it through to the main attraction!
For me, getting there 10 minutes before the band means almost always having to stealth.

By 2009 in NYC, most of the bands I taped were OK with it but asked me to not be so obvious and I ended up with a system that didn't include setting up mics where people would later ask for copies of the tape, and the artists would have a copy they could grab the next morning.

I WISH I could get there early and set up, and I WISH people weren't becoming more and more assholes around me, but that doesn't seem likely any time soon.

But I am always happy to hear someone can make a change that goes against all their obsessions.

[robeti]

Pul-eeze.  Stealth taping wore you out?  I mean how hard is it? You shove a couple mikes into a hat and press the "record button." 

You STFU, but I STFU when I'm not taping. 

I guess you can't turn your head and check out the babes, but other than that how difficult is it?

I've been stealth taping since 1970--my first rig was a cassette with a Sony stereo mike duct taped to a Popeil Pocket Fisherman Pole.  Its actually gotten easier.  As Ron Popeil would say, I just set it and forget it. 

Maybe I'm a little tongue in  cheek but I urge you to reconsider.  Open Taping is on the decline and we need more experienced tapers.

Well said.

[acidjack]

I think I've managed to maintain my sanity while stealthing by following a few rules.

1. Don't let idiots/assholes ruin having a good time at a show. Yep, they might have ruined the recording, but once that starts happening I write it off. Sometimes it turns out you can't even hear them.
2. Occasionally I'll be on the fence if I want to record a stealth show. I have shirt with mics in the collar and run a super minimal rig. I put little to no effort in and hope for the best. At the very least I have the recording "for my records."
3. For shows I skip recording and then wish I did, I try to put behind me as well. Remember the vast majority of people at the show will never get to listen to it again, and they live. There is always next time and you can't have it all.

Yep there are times when I take recording undercover very seriously. I've learned what bands are worthy of this and prepare myself in advance.

I think it's important to accept that it's okay to take a break from both stealthing shows and open shows.

This. Man it's hard to do, but you feel so much better once you're able to "let it go". If you can fix an issue, fix it, but sitting there being enraged at someone who has no idea they're even bothering you is a quick route to a heart attack and/or general bad time.

Hey Steve, maybe you want to retire from taping altogether and sell me your MK41Vs... I'm just sayin... 

[cashandkerouac]

stealthing is often more of a pain in the ass than it's worth especially if a crowd is badly behaved.

And to disagree...I often find open taping is more of a pain in the ass.

it should not be that way, but it often is (at least in my experience).  if there were more good opportunities for open taping i would certainly do more of it, but the crowds and the venues  are the biggest obstacles. 

whether our preferred MO is open taping or stealth we all love music (which is why we go to so much time, effort and expense to record it).  as long as nobody is doing anything wrong with their recordings (i.e. selling them, uploading them for public consumption where it is not appropriate, etc.) i don't think anyone on this board condemns or frowns upon stealth... at least i would hope not.  it just tends to be a contentious subject when discussed in the public forum because it's being discussed in the public forum.     

and as for tonedeaf's decision to retire from stealth, i respect that decision whatever his reasons.

[stevetoney]

stealthing is often more of a pain in the ass than it's worth especially if a crowd is badly behaved.

And to disagree...I often find open taping is more of a pain in the ass.

it should not be that way, but it often is (at least in my experience).  if there were more good opportunities for open taping i would certainly do more of it, but the crowds and the venues  are the biggest obstacles.  or tonedeaf's decision to retire from stealth, i respect that decision whatever his reasons.

If you like the type of music which doesn't have alot of open taper bands or you go to venue's that don't bat for you, in order to tape open you've gotta jump through lots of hoops to get permission.  Yeah, easier to go the other way. 

If you're like me and you like jammy bands that are already on LMA and you live in a place where they play alot (we're lucky here on the east USA coast), all you gotta do it set up and hit the record button.

Whichever way is more of  PITA depends factors outside the tapers hands.

[beatkilla]

I have stealth taped every show i have been to since 1986 lovin every minute of it!

[rocksuitcase]

I love this topic. I've done both since 1982. I have "retired" or just not taped twice in  my life.  First, I stopped taping the GD  from 1991-1995 because I became a vendor. I still taped shows at home and non dead stuff. Then I stopped all taping from about 1997 through 1999 due to moving and not having good gear.
Personally, I have rarely  'd since the 90's.

[robeti]

I have stealth taped every show i have been to since 1986 lovin every minute of it!

nice!

[Nick's Picks]

it was the same for me.  I stealthed a lot for years...and it is difficult.  sometimes, downright crazy hard and stressful. 
that said, I still plan to nail Huey Lewis n the News this summer.  Maybe Steely Dan too. 

[Nick's Picks]

I love this topic. I've done both since 1982. I have "retired" or just not taped twice in  my life.  First, I stopped taping the GD  from 1991-1995 because I became a vendor. I still taped shows at home and non dead stuff. Then I stopped all taping from about 1997 through 1999 due to moving and not having good gear.
Personally, I have rarely  'd since the 90's.

I have stealth taped every show i have been to since 1986 lovin every minute of it!

I have stealth taped every show i have been to since 1986 lovin every minute of it!

+T

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

The 'wore me out' part basically meant that, for me, after maybe a couple hundred shows, stealthing eventually killed my desire to go out to shows anymore.  Enough so that when I needed cash, it wasn't that big a deal at that point in my recording life that I sold all my stuff and got out.

As the best of friends, let me be the first to say you're a pussy.  I've had only one chance to tape a decent show in the last 4 years (Fu Manchu - shut out by the band), so I have no sympathy for you! 

...and here's some friend-love back atcha.   

Here's what I've recorded over the last week plus.

Manhattan Project 4/10
The Chopshop 4/12
Deltanine 4/16
Pigions Playing Ping Pong 4/16
Manitoa 4/17
The Mantras 4/17
Turquaz 4/19
Alan Evans Trio 4/19

Five nights out recording over the stretch of 10 days.  Two of those events were outta town and required drives of 75 and 90 minutes each way.  The last four years I've averaged 150 recordings a year.  I'm working towards my 700th show uploaded to archive.

Pussy indeed!   .

Big hippie patchouli stink get lice from my dreads leg hump hugs my friend my friend!  And I know you're only retiring  ...  I may be stupid but I can read!!!  LOL! 

I'm just thinking that one day you'll get back to it b/c you are so hard-core!

In my own defense, I'm so hard-up to get out and tape a show, I'd gladly go  in a second if I had the rig (and my wife would let me)!!!  LOL!

Terry

[tim in jersey]

I started out as a patcher in the open/jam-band circuit around '97 or '98. Pure patch rat.

I hated stealth/non-open gigs at first, but the way my tastes have been running lately, I dig the .007 gigs the most. Jazz/non-rock gigs in quiet rooms/respectful crowds.

I actually dread the open gigs now. Outta-sight, outta mind. I look forward to rigging up the hat, plopping my ass in a good seat and just enjoying the show and then having my mind blown by how awesome a hat rig can sound now-a-days...

[stevetoney]

Big hippie patchouli stink get lice from my dreads leg hump hugs my friend my friend!  And I know you're only retiring  ...  I may be stupid but I can read!!!  LOL! 

LOL.  Nice.  Lice from your dreads...gross but LMFAO.

I'm just thinking that one day you'll get back to it b/c you are so hard-core!

No doubt...you know me pretty well.  Ha.  Just bought tix for Jack White later this summer. 

In my own defense, I'm so hard-up to get out and tape a show, I'd gladly go  in a second if I had the rig (and my wife would let me)!!!  LOL!

What's up with that man?  I guess since you have no gear that's a disincentive, but man you're a taper.  Get a church rig and get out there at least once or twice a year...keep the fire burnin'!

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Big hippie patchouli stink get lice from my dreads leg hump hugs my friend my friend!  And I know you're only retiring  ...  I may be stupid but I can read!!!  LOL! 

LOL.  Nice.  Lice from your dreads...gross but LMFAO.

I'm just thinking that one day you'll get back to it b/c you are so hard-core!

No doubt...you know me pretty well.  Ha.  Just bought tix for Jack White later this summer. 

In my own defense, I'm so hard-up to get out and tape a show, I'd gladly go  in a second if I had the rig (and my wife would let me)!!!  LOL!

What's up with that man?  I guess since you have no gear that's a disincentive, but man you're a taper.  Get a church rig and get out there at least once or twice a year...keep the fire burnin'!

I still have an open rig, just in case...  I recently sold my TLs and picked up some AKGs, I'm itching to try them... 

Peace!

Terry

[stevetoney]

I still have an open rig, just in case...  I recently sold my TLs and picked up some AKGs, I'm itching to try them... 

If you get desperate to tape, you could always use your new mics to record your wife bitching at you about having mics. 

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I still have an open rig, just in case...  I recently sold my TLs and picked up some AKGs, I'm itching to try them... 

If you get desperate to tape, you could always use your new mics to record your wife bitching at you about having mics. 

I'd have to borrow a  rig, or else I'd get bitch-slapped...

Terry

[Humbug]

Here in Europe the kind of music I like is non-open 99% of the time. There is no other choice than to stealth.

This is not my experience - I have open taped in Holland, Spain (several times), and at 30+ venues in London - it just takes more work/persuasion. Yes, it's more difficult / impossible for the larger venues, but the small-medium venues are generally OK with it, providing the band say yes. About 50% of my recordings are open, and I am out on average once or twice a week.

I use exactly the same rig whether I am open, or stealthing, just add a mic stand or clamp.

[page]

I've convinced myself to buy stealth rigs over the years and have almost never used them. I still have one too and it just sits and gathers dust. I just don't record if the band doesn't allow open taping. For the most part, the music and bands that I like are cool with taping.

I think I bought and sold 2 or 3 Church Audio sets before I just said "fuck it, I'm not going to do this again" and kept my non-stealth gear. I can see why others do it, but short of one or two bands, the cost/benefit analysis just isn't in my favor.

[stevetoney]

I think I bought and sold 2 or 3 Church Audio sets before I just said "fuck it, I'm not going to do this again" and kept my non-stealth gear. I can see why others do it, but short of one or two bands, the cost/benefit analysis just isn't in my favor.

That's so funny cause I did exactly the same thing.  Now I've got 2 gigs coming this summer that I have tix for that need to be  and the thought crosses my mind to do it all over again even though I declared myself retired at the start of this thread.  LOL.  Terry said it earlier I guess...you can take the gear from a taper, but once a always a deep down in the heart. 

[thunderbolt]

You need a nice AT853 set!
<ducks>

[Gil]

I think I bought and sold 2 or 3 Church Audio sets before I just said "fuck it, I'm not going to do this again" and kept my non-stealth gear. I can see why others do it, but short of one or two bands, the cost/benefit analysis just isn't in my favor.

That's so funny cause I did exactly the same thing.  Now I've got 2 gigs coming this summer that I have tix for that need to be  and the thought crosses my mind to do it all over again even though I declared myself retired at the start of this thread.  LOL.  Terry said it earlier I guess...you can take the gear from a taper, but once a always a deep down in the heart.

You can always borrow my AT943 hypers rig, Steve.

[stevetoney]

I think I bought and sold 2 or 3 Church Audio sets before I just said "fuck it, I'm not going to do this again" and kept my non-stealth gear. I can see why others do it, but short of one or two bands, the cost/benefit analysis just isn't in my favor.

That's so funny cause I did exactly the same thing.  Now I've got 2 gigs coming this summer that I have tix for that need to be  and the thought crosses my mind to do it all over again even though I declared myself retired at the start of this thread.  LOL.  Terry said it earlier I guess...you can take the gear from a taper, but once a always a deep down in the heart.

You can always borrow my AT943 hypers rig, Steve.

Oooh yeah man.  Thanks Gil.  Thats an attractive option!  The shows I'm hittin' are Jack White and Jurrasic 5, both the same week in July I think.

[adrianf74]

I think I bought and sold 2 or 3 Church Audio sets before I just said "fuck it, I'm not going to do this again" and kept my non-stealth gear. I can see why others do it, but short of one or two bands, the cost/benefit analysis just isn't in my favor.

That's so funny cause I did exactly the same thing.  Now I've got 2 gigs coming this summer that I have tix for that need to be  and the thought crosses my mind to do it all over again even though I declared myself retired at the start of this thread.  LOL.  Terry said it earlier I guess...you can take the gear from a taper, but once a always a deep down in the heart.

You can always borrow my AT943 hypers rig, Steve.

Oooh yeah man.  Thanks Gil.  Thats an attractive option!  The shows I'm hittin' are Jack White and Jurrasic 5, both the same week in July I think.

Exactly.  There's always somebody nearby with some small mics to be loaned out for those times where you need to.

Really, I don't see it truly being that much more involved whether I wear actives or small mics -- it's more or less the same pain in the ass pretending to be a mic stand for 2+ hours. 

[tooldvn]

I still have an open rig, just in case...  I recently sold my TLs and picked up some AKGs, I'm itching to try them... 

If you get desperate to tape, you could always use your new mics to record your wife bitching at you about having mics. 

I'd have to borrow a  rig, or else I'd get bitch-slapped...

Terry

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't she want you to tape or own mics anymore?  What would she rather you do with that money/time?  (since it always seems to come down to $ & time with the ladies).

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't she want you to tape or own mics anymore?  What would she rather you do with that money/time?  (since it always seems to come down to $ & time with the ladies).

Its not that she doesn't want me to tape...  Its that she works 4 nights out of the week and I have our 2yo and 4yo kids those nights...  So that limits my taping severely...  Heather actually told me several years ago NOT to sell my mics, since then I've used them a total of ZERO times...

I think she would let me out on a friday or sat night, but honestly there hasn't been anything I've wanted to tape in a long time...  Well, there have been a few things, but I'm less and less motivated these days... 

Terry

[tooldvn]

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't she want you to tape or own mics anymore?  What would she rather you do with that money/time?  (since it always seems to come down to $ & time with the ladies).

Its not that she doesn't want me to tape...  Its that she works 4 nights out of the week and I have our 2yo and 4yo kids those nights...  So that limits my taping severely...  Heather actually told me several years ago NOT to sell my mics, since then I've used them a total of ZERO times...

I think she would let me out on a friday or sat night, but honestly there hasn't been anything I've wanted to tape in a long time...  Well, there have been a few things, but I'm less and less motivated these days... 

Gotcha.  Totally understand - I completely took a step away from the scene once my kiddos were born.  Now that they are 6 & 8, I can venture back into the water!   Here's hoping you find your way back sooner rather than later!

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't she want you to tape or own mics anymore?  What would she rather you do with that money/time?  (since it always seems to come down to $ & time with the ladies).

Its not that she doesn't want me to tape...  Its that she works 4 nights out of the week and I have our 2yo and 4yo kids those nights...  So that limits my taping severely...  Heather actually told me several years ago NOT to sell my mics, since then I've used them a total of ZERO times...

I think she would let me out on a friday or sat night, but honestly there hasn't been anything I've wanted to tape in a long time...  Well, there have been a few things, but I'm less and less motivated these days... 

Gotcha.  Totally understand - I completely took a step away from the scene once my kiddos were born.  Now that they are 6 & 8, I can venture back into the water!   Here's hoping you find your way back sooner rather than later!

Thanks!  I'm looking forward to it... 

Terry

[robeti]

Here in Europe the kind of music I like is non-open 99% of the time. There is no other choice than to stealth.

This is not my experience - I have open taped in Holland, Spain (several times), and at 30+ venues in London - it just takes more work/persuasion. Yes, it's more difficult / impossible for the larger venues, but the small-medium venues are generally OK with it, providing the band say yes. About 50% of my recordings are open, and I am out on average once or twice a week.

I use exactly the same rig whether I am open, or stealthing, just add a mic stand or clamp.

Like I said. All the depends on the music you like.
Music I like is almost never open taping in Europe.

[page]

Part of it depends on how you define "open." Not much of what I've recorded over the last 2 or 3 years is open in terms of I can just walk in and setup, but all of it was done with prior approval that I negotiated well in advance. You'd be surprised what you can get approval for if you are willing to put in a serious amount of effort and negotiation beforehand. Doesn't always work, but it's better than I expected.

[2manyrocks]

I think there's a certain degree of humility involved in knowing who to ask and how to ask and then showing appreciation for being allowed to record.  I got to put my mic stand in just the right spot and the sound board guy GAVE me a usb recording off the board without me even asking this weekend.  These guys were super nice, and I came away with a recording that made all the effort worthwhile.   

[rjp]

I hated stealth/non-open gigs at first, but the way my tastes have been running lately, I dig the .007 gigs the most. Jazz/non-rock gigs in quiet rooms/respectful crowds.

Heh. I have some frickin' outstanding choral recordings along that line. And a few that were not outstanding only because someone was rattling her program right next to me. That being said, I don't feel comfortable with the idea of releasing them, even on $ROIO_TORRENT_TRACKER.

[WiFiJeff]

And a few that were not outstanding only because someone was rattling her program right next to me.

iZotope Rx3 Advanced.  Declick and Attenuate.   Comes out clean and fresh smelling, better than bleach in your laundry.

Jeff

[F.O.Bean]

Steve, I am the EXACT same way as you are buddy I havent steal&hed in 15 years and I will NEVER do it again either. TOTAL buzzkill for me too. I mean, yeah its cool to have a show like that and all, but I make WAY too many noises and cant stand still for ONE SECOND, let alone hours at a time. I dont have the energy to do it and its simply ZERO fun for me. So if I cant openly tape it, I'm not going. Period.