Topic: Suggestions for upgrade

[bogusjack]

Hi all:

I'm presently using SP-CMC-8 cards > SP BB > mic in > PMD-620.  Limiter on -24db, recording levels peaking around -12 db, low cut filter off.  I not digging the quality of my recordings, they seem to lack punch and they are not very loud.  At one time, I was using these mics with a Sony DAT PCM-M1 recorder and the quality seemed to be better.  My question for the group is what route should I take to improve on this setup?  Should I try a preamp like the tiny box or pipsqueek?  Should I upgrade my recorder to a Sony PCM-M10?  If I go with a tinybox would I go mic in or line in?  Also considering a pair of omni's like naint's x-x? I plan on attending a few Who shows next spring and into the fall and I really want to get some great sound.  I appreciated everyone's advice and suggestions.  I'm just frustrated as of late.  If someone wants to pm and hear a sample of one of recordings to critique I would be happy to forward it to them.

Thanks

[chinariderstl]

Well, you can't go wrong with (1) a pair of Audio Technica AT853's, (2) Naiant X-X omnis, (3) a Naiant Pipsqueak plug-in-power battery box, (4) a Naiant Tinybox, (5) or a Sony PCM-M10.  That is all top notch gear.

Jon Stoppable, at Naiant, can spell out some options for you.  If you want to keep a pretty low-profile rig, and step it up a notch, a pair of Berliner CM-33 ought to get you there.  You could run those into a Tinybox.  Again, Jon can advise you on that.  Ted Gakidis can you hook you up with the cables.  If you wanted to go full-size mics, a pair of Busman Audio BSC1's would do you nicely.  Real nice as a matter of fact.  Another recommendation would be a pair of Audio-Technica AT4041's.  There are tons and tons of options out there.

I would suggest you check the Yard Sale out on a regular basis, there's always some good deals and good equipment there.  That and listen to a bunch of shows on the Live Music Archive.  You quickly find out what you like and what you don't

For example, here is a sweet, sweet pair of AKG SE300b/CK91's for $375.  Those things are hot a hell.  You would make some killer, killer recordings with those.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167685.0

Another option is a single-point stereo mic like the Audio_Technica_AT8022.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/602080-REG/_AT8022_X_Y_Stereo_Phantom.html

HTH, Chris.

[Marshall7]

I can second the recommendations for the AT853's, Naiant X-X's, and the Tinybox.  All major upgrades to what you have now, and not a lot bigger.

[acidjack]

What does "loud" mean? Loudness is a function of amplification and compression in post, not the microphone.

Using a limiter is a mistake.

Upgrading a recorder is a mistake. The 620 is perfectly fine and it is not affecting the sound.

Buying "preamps" etc. is (for your particular application) a mistake. The sound quality you're experiencing is a function of the microphone, period.

I would first try and really understand what you're doing with software, then consider changing your mics. The SP-CMC-8 / AT 943 cards are a little thin and low on bass, but otherwise fine in my opinion. The next mics I'd consider are probably the AT853, but honestly, everything will be just a minor incremental upgrade until you go to something much larger, the cheapest of which being AKG actives.

[yltfan]

Another thing you should think about is your location. For those Who shows, are you going to be in the sweet spot, or up in the rafters? With your setup, you should be able to get a decent recording--if you are in a good location.

[bogusjack]

For The Who shows; I have 11th row floor right for one show.  Another show I have 2 rows off the main floor in a section on the right about a 1/3 of the way back from the stage.  Planning on using the cards to records both of these instead of buying omni's.  If you believe that omin's would provide a better pull, please let me know.

[hi and lo]

For The Who shows; I have 11th row floor right for one show.  Another show I have 2 rows off the main floor in a section on the right about a 1/3 of the way back from the stage.  Planning on using the cards to records both of these instead of buying omni's.  If you believe that omin's would provide a better pull, please let me know.

When he said "think about your location," I don't think he meant to publicly broadcast it. This is a good way to get busted.

What does "loud" mean? Loudness is a function of amplification and compression in post, not the microphone.

Using a limiter is a mistake.

I had to read the entire PMD-620 manual to figure out what this was in reference to because this recorder does not have a limiter. I included a screenshot below.

What you are using is a sensitivity / attenuation switch. I don't know how 'hot' of a signal the mic input can accept or what exactly is going on in the signal path of the mic input when the attenuation is engaged, but if you need to use this with a battery box, you might as well just run line in. As long as you can get proper levels running line in, you'll likely get a cleaner signal with no attenuation. You might need to run the levels a good bit higher line in, but that's ok.

Good luck with the recordings!

[acidjack]

^^ Wow, I'd be amazed if the OP is still clipping with a -24dB attenuator, but as you note, line-in remains the safest bet....

As I told him via PM, the AT943 aka SP-CMC-8 mics may require the 4.7k mod if that hasn't been implemented.

[bogusjack]

Just to recap.

1. I should begin using line in instead of mic in
2. set the mic attenuator to zero db
3. set the recording level so it peaks around -12 db

acid jack.  I've never had an instance of clipping with using -24 db on the attenuator.  my recording level on my recorder to get around a peak recording level of -12 db is typically around -14db.  Unlike say the sony m-10, the marantz recording level on the recorder is set by punching the + or - keys.  0 db is the highest and I cannot remember how far into the - db the level goes.

[hi and lo]

Just to recap.

1. I should begin using line in instead of mic in
2. set the mic attenuator to zero db
3. set the recording level so it peaks around -12 db

acid jack.  I've never had an instance of clipping with using -24 db on the attenuator.  my recording level on my recorder to get around a peak recording level of -12 db is typically around -14db.  Unlike say the sony m-10, the marantz recording level on the recorder is set by punching the + or - keys.  0 db is the highest and I cannot remember how far into the - db the level goes.

Nice summary, but a couple of thoughts.

1. Yes, if it's a loud rock concert, but if you're recording unamplified music or quieter sources, you might find that you need gain to achieve acceptable recording levels in which case you should use the mic input and probably without attenutation.
2. Not necessarily. First, this setting will have no effect if you are running line in; it only works with mic in. Second, if you're running mic in for loud, amplified music you might need some attentuation to avoid clipping the recording levels. I wouldn't overthink this because it's probably an unlikely event, but you might find there is a range where line in does not provide enough gain and mic in too much, in which case you'd need to use the attenuation feature. The intermediate setting (-12dB?) is likely more appropriate if you need attenuation.
2. Sure, shooting for peaks of -12dB is generally sound advice when recording in a 24 bit format. It's still advantageous to try and get as close as possible to 0dB because the analog performance of these minature recording decks is typically more on-par with 16 bits of dynamic range, but we don't need to worry about that. Better to not digitally clip.

With the -24dB attenuator engaged, you're right; I doubt you've ever come close to clipping the recorders input. It's also possible to clip the microphones (overload is the correct term), in which case your recording levels might look fine but the signal is actually distorted, but if you're using a battery box this is unlikely in most situations. You'd need to be very close to a very loud sound source.

[aaronji]

You will almost always need the attenuation feature for recording music.  I have always used the -24 dB setting, but have generally used fairly sensitive mics (DPA 4060s at 20 mV/Pa).  Perhaps -12 dB would be a good match for less sensitive mics, but I have also always used the -24 dB setting with MKE-2s (I think they are about 6 dB less sensitive than the DPAs).  The 0 dB setting is like "mic sensitivity high" on most other recorders.

Also, it is definitely possible to overload the input even at the -24 dB setting as the input is kind of sensitive.  It has to be pretty loud, but it's do-able with the right mics and dBSPL...

[jb63]

"SP-CMC-8 cards > SP BB > mic in > PMD-620.  Limiter on -24db, recording levels peaking around -12 db, low cut filter off."

Looks to me like your battery box is providing power to the mics, so there is no real reason to use mic in unless your levels aren't getting you enough volume. I would recommend setting up 3 presets for line in: one at 0db, one at -12db & one at -24 db.

run the same setup line in in a club with a band where you don't care about the results. Start on the first preset and see where your levels go. If at 0db of attenuation you can't get enough volume, go to the next preset (-12db) and try that.

the pmd 620 looks at every thing as CUTTING decibels. so line in at the 0db pad with the volume all the way up is volume at 0.
when you turn it down it's -1db, -2db all the way to 24.
what i like to do is find the volume & pad setting that lets me run line in with the actual adjustable-by-increment volume set about -10.
that way when it gets louder I don't have to change to a different preset, but simply switch off the hold switch and adjust accordingly and there are several dibs to go in either direction.

in my experience, that's the best way to use that setup.
mic in will be slightly noisier, but not THAT much noisier.
i forget what the noise floor difference is, but its on a bunch of reviews from when the recorder came out.

after you've done that experiment (for the cost of bar admission & beers), go inspect the results and see if you like what you hear. It should be an accurate representation of what the mics sound like. They aren't crappy mics, and about 30 feet from a small PA should sound OK.

I think that's all exactly what everybody here just said, though.

[yates7592]

I not digging the quality of my recordings, they seem to lack punch and they are not very loud. 

2 issues it seems:
Regarding 'loudness', others above have stated that you should look at your PMD620 settings, I'm not familiar with that.
Regarding 'punch', I think acidjack is right, the SP-CMC-8 are thin on bass, a mic upgrade may be your best step up.

[bogusjack]

I forwarded to another user some samples of my recordings which gave me a chance to revisit one under my old DAT deck. 

To confirm and agree with everyone, the mics are tinny.  I've concluded that I may get a pair of omni's like the Naint x-x since I've only been using these cards.  At least it would provide me with a different feel of a recording.

Thanks to all of you for your advice!

[acidjack]

^ I'd get omni caps for the mica you have. They're like 50 bucks.