Topic: Tascam DR-70D 4-channel audio recorder (Part 5)

[voltronic]

Ran clean last night for Naughty Professor - using my "good" (No errors so far) LEXAR Platinum II card.

This card was full - I deleted the files in Windows - and then formatted in the DR-70D. (old firmware "FORMAT)

No glitches - two clean sets! @ 24/48.

Good to hear, I've never used a Lexar card.  We're you running 2 or 4 channels?

If that worked well over 2 sets with just the quick format, I'd say that should qualify as a good card.  Maybe pop it into the survey if you get a moment?  I might take the reported good cards from there and make a list on the FAQ page.  I had a small list there before which I deleted in favor of the survey, but it might be more convenient to also have a list of known good ones there with retail links, if that sounds like a good idea.

After thinking about this, I'd probably be more comfortable using a card with a good report like yours than I would be with one of the ones marked "*1" on the new media list, saying that you need to always full-format them.  Yes, this is coming from the guy preaching full formatting, which is superior but less convenient.

[Life In Rewind]

Ran clean last night for Naughty Professor - using my "good" (No errors so far) LEXAR Platinum II card.

This card was full - I deleted the files in Windows - and then formatted in the DR-70D. (old firmware "FORMAT)

No glitches - two clean sets! @ 24/48.

Good to hear, I've never used a Lexar card.  We're you running 2 or 4 channels?

If that worked well over 2 sets with just the quick format, I'd say that should qualify as a good card.  Maybe pop it into the survey if you get a moment?  I might take the reported good cards from there and make a list on the FAQ page.  I had a small list there before which I deleted in favor of the survey, but it might be more convenient to also have a list of known good ones there with retail links, if that sounds like a good idea.

After thinking about this, I'd probably be more comfortable using a card with a good report like yours than I would be with one of the ones marked "*1" on the new media list, saying that you need to always full-format them.  Yes, this is coming from the guy preaching full formatting, which is superior but less convenient.

I've already reported it as a bad card...! I have 2 - One glitched - one hasn't.

I willing to bet a FULL FORMAT will fix the glitchy one.

I dont think just because a card has failed means its a "bad card"

Last night I was running just 2 channels at 24/48. So - not a huge challenge.

But - probably my best recording yet with this deck!

[jcb]

Here is  a comparison of the recommended/tested SD cards lists published by the manufacturers of different recorders including the Tascam DR-70D.
http://ww2.dadabe.org/public/feo/cards.xls
That's quite a mess : some of these cards are obsolete, some are for the Japanese market only, very few (some SanDisk Extreme Pro or Extreme Plus) are recommended by more than one manufacturer.

[morst]

If that worked well over 2 sets with just the quick format, I'd say that should qualify as a good card. 

How can you say this? The only cards Tascam will stand behind are the ones on their short list.  If we could decide what cards are good, we would not be having this element of the discussion!?

A card works for two formats and you think it's as good as a Tascam-tested card?

Not feelin' it. It took them 11 months to come up with a single 128GB

[voltronic]

If that worked well over 2 sets with just the quick format, I'd say that should qualify as a good card. 

How can you say this? The only cards Tascam will stand behind are the ones on their short list.  If we could decide what cards are good, we would not be having this element of the discussion!?

A card works for two formats and you think it's as good as a Tascam-tested card?

Not feelin' it. It took them 11 months to come up with a single 128GB

Unless I'm misreading your intent - it sounds like you're saying we should actually trust Tascam's testing methodology and the approved card list!

Wow, I thought Tonedeaf and me burying the hatchet this weekend was a big step, but this just blew my mind.

Kidding aside, yeah it's probably premature to declare a card "good" after just two uses.  Don't get me wrong - I still think the offical Tascam list is the way to go if you're buying a new card, but maybe some of the older cards we already own can work also like the 5 year old Transcend I have in my 70D.

[voltronic]

Here is  a comparison of the recommended/tested SD cards lists published by the manufacturers of different recorders including the Tascam DR-70D.
http://ww2.dadabe.org/public/feo/cards.xls
That's quite a mess : some of these cards are obsolete, some are for the Japanese market only, very few (some SanDisk Extreme Pro or Extreme Plus) are recommended by more than one manufacturer.

Great job on putting this together!  Do you own all of these recorders, or did you just choose a sample of popular recorders that use SD storage?

Another question - what are the codes you have listed for some of the cards under the 680MKII and 60DMKII?

[morst]

Unless I'm misreading your intent - it sounds like you're saying we should actually trust Tascam's testing methodology and the approved card list!

Wow, I thought Tonedeaf and me burying the hatchet this weekend was a big step, but this just blew my mind.

I am in fact saying that since Tascam has a workaround, and I don't want to be their test dummy, that I will be using ONLY cards from their ever-changing list.

What else have we got if we want to use a DR-70D? I had failures on three "wrong" cards. I bought a 16GB off the old list, and that works (so far!) I'll probably pick up a bigger card next time I have some extended recording to do, I bought three different 32's before my last outing, but none of those are on the "real list." I bought three 16GB cards that B & H was suggesting. First one I tried failed.

I want to have a chance at user support for what I consider Tascam's defective DR-70D. I will be using only approved cards until I can verify that they get the same error. Then it's back to complaining to custserv@ 

Did you notice that in my BBB complaint, I did not exactly require them to fix the errors? I mainly asked TEAC/Tascam to certify SDXC cards so that the machine would do as-advertised. And a result was mighty speedy once I did so!

I want to use the Tascam DR-70D in the manner it is intended to be used, with SDXC cards of sufficient size, as advertised. I want Tascam to resolve the issue either by certifying a few 64 and 128 GB SDXC cards, repairing the hardware, updating the firmware, or if they can not resolve their hardware issue, as a very last resort, Tascam should be forced to stop advertising the unit as being compatible with cards over 32GB.

If this is the case, that TEAC/Tascam are unable to demonstrate that their DR-70D product meets their operational specifications, then I want them to issue a refund for my purchase.

Of *course*, I would prefer that we could use any ol' CL10 card, but I guess I'm spoiled by my Sony PCM-M10's, and their ability to use seemingly any card for 2-track audio.

Like you keep saying, this is Tascam, one must lower one's expectations! It's not Sound Devices, it's not Zaxcom, hell, it's not even Sony. 

But, dollars to donuts, Tascam doesn't feel like spending another penny to market this thing, so it's "Cheaper to keep'r" and just certify some dang'ol 128GB SDXC cards rather than redoing the sales blurbs!!!?! Hence, the results!

[jcb]

Here is  a comparison of the recommended/tested SD cards lists published by the manufacturers of different recorders including the Tascam DR-70D.
http://ww2.dadabe.org/public/feo/cards.xls
That's quite a mess : some of these cards are obsolete, some are for the Japanese market only, very few (some SanDisk Extreme Pro or Extreme Plus) are recommended by more than one manufacturer.

Great job on putting this together!  Do you own all of these recorders, or did you just choose a sample of popular recorders that use SD storage?

Another question - what are the codes you have listed for some of the cards under the 680MKII and 60DMKII?

Regarding the choice of recorders, they just are current 4 tracks and more from Tascam (this is the point we discuss), Sound Devices (generally accepted as pro gear and recent models), Zoom (the darling of the moment). I own only the humble DR-70D.
I wondered if there was a pattern to be found in these lists that could help determine good cards : the answer, for me, is no. I suspect that the SD card specs that appears on the cards themselves are more marketing than technology (meaning that some important information is not visible).
I was also surprised by the limited number of easily available cards listed and the very few cards that appear on more than one list.
Sometimes the reference of the card is the same as found in another list plus a few letters or figures, I put those between parentheses besides the OK as they seem to define more precisely a card manufacturing type (for instance when you see J35 and J35N the last one looks like it means J35new which may be different).

[2manyrocks]

I would have thought that any card that will play nicely with the 70d should also play nicely in any other recorder and the gaps in cross compatibility stem from the difficulty of testing every card with every recorder.

But maybe not?

[JiB97]

have had no issues with this 16gb Samsung SD card i've been using.  taped a show and have run 5 or 6 tests just recording my record player and nothing wrong so far.

[MakersMarc]

I wonder if it's just best to use 16 gb. When I got my 661 I just assumed that large capacity cards could be an issue for any recorder, and have had no card related issues.

[capnhook]

I think it would be best to use 128 GB.  Longer recording time....  

[jcb]

I have been having a close look at some SD cards I had on my desk and tried to test them.  Please note that this was done just to try to understand the differences between cards that carry similar specifications, not to take position on the quality of the DR-70D write-to-card routines.

To understand the test results, one must have a reference : recording at 24/96 4 channels, with 20% overhead to manage the file system should require something like 1.5MB/s of bandwidth.
Tests were run using the gnome_disks_utility (disks) on a Fedora 22 linux machine. This tests the random read and write speed of the cards. It was set to 250 samples of 10 MB each.
The 10 cards tested are in fact 2 each of 5 different models :

• 2 SanDisk 16GB SDSDXPA-016G-X46 on the Tascam DR-70D recommended list
• 2 SanDisk 64GB SDSDXPA-064G-X46 on that same recommended list
• 2 Transcend 32GB of 2013 no speed marked
• 2 Transcend 32GB TS32GSDHC10E of 2014 C10, 200x
• 2 Transcend 32GB TS32GSDHC10U1E of 2015 C10, 600x

All cards bought from Amazon (and sold by Amazon, no marketplace sellers).
Here are the results (red line is the write rate in MB/s, blue line is the read rate in MB/s, the green scatter plot is the access time in msec) :

SanDisk 16GB, very lightly used (just some tests) :



SanDisk 16GB, new out of the box :



SanDisk 64GB, new out of the box :



This card is reported as 32GB by the program, it has been checked with f3 and is indeed a 64GB card with all sectors working correctly.
another SanDisk 64GB, new out of the box :



Same tests were performed with f3, the card is really a 64GB card.
All these cards show a very regular pattern that does not change during the test and a minimum write speed that is much higher than the 1.5MB/s that is needed.

Now lets look at some Transcend cards that have served me well in photo applications :
Transcend 32GB, used but not abused, no speed indication on the card (bought in 2013) :



another Transcend 32GB, used but not abused, no speed indication on the card (bought in 2013) :



Let's get a little more current with Class 10 cards :

Transcend 32GB, used but not abused, Class 10, 200x (bought in 2014) :



another Transcend 32GB, used but not abused, Class 10, 200x (bought in 2014) :



And even more current, Transcend Class 10 600x UHS-I cards :

Transcend 32GB, used but not abused, Class 10, 600x, UHS-I (bought in 2015) :



another Transcend 32GB, used but not abused, Class 10, 600x, UHS-I (bought in 2015) :



With these cards, performance is progressively reduced during the test (obviously, there is buffering at play at the beginning). Write rates may be insufficient at times to ensure a 1.5MB/s bandwith. Apart from the first type (the older one) that seems to guarantee a 6MB/s bandwith, they do not seem to be a good choice for a multitrack recorder. It is strange that the more recent cards that are sold as better (with more badges such as Class 10, UHS-I, ...) have in fact much worse write speed performance. Access time can be very high on rare occasions at 6 to 8 msec.

[mfrench]

FWIW,... and nowhere near the detail from above,...
I did my first live recording tonight with the DR70D, and had no issues.
I ran 2444, low gain setting, with DPA 4060's-> DPA MMA6000 mic preamp and Sandisk Ultra 16gb card, and had no issues in a two set, two hour recording.  I was going to run 2496, but chickened out, and reset a few minutes before the show.

[voltronic]

^ ^ jcb, that's a very interesting test.  A couple things:

Did you happen to do an Erase / Full format on those Transcend cards before testing?  If not, that may improve their results.  If you did fully format them, then that indicates that either their performance really degrades badly over a year or two, or they are simply far inferior to the SanDisk units.

Your test was random read / write of 250 10MB samples.  To me, that seems to be how they would be used in a camera.  From what I understand though, audio recording is a much more continuous write.  I wonder if you can find a test that does sustained writes.  I think such tests exist for hard drives, but I'm not sure if they work for flash media.