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Offline OhioHead

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M-10 levels......
« on: October 20, 2015, 12:47:36 AM »
I know I have read w/ the M-10 not to run much past -12db's, I did this for the 1st set of SCI tonight.

I ran pushing -6db's for the 2nd set, recorder gain was approximately @ 2.5, have not listened to the show on my home stereo, car sounded good.......

3 other tapers @ the show, so if I have a "bad" 2nd set not worried because it was recorded.......

M-10 experts please weigh in, thanks!

Offline bryonsos

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2015, 01:18:32 AM »
-12 is a good baseline. A bit higher or lower won't kill the recording. If you search around here on TS you'll read about unity gain, where the recorder is neither amplifying nor attenuating the incoming signal (e.g. optimal setting on gain wheel). My 2¢ on this is that each deck varies a bit, and that it will be around 4-5. As long as the red 'over' lights aren't flashing on, you won't be saturating or brickwalling the recording. Too low can make noise problems when you normalize or amplify the recording later. You didn't mention if you're using a preamp or battery box to power your mics. Definitely don't use the built in plug in power (PIP) unless it's a really quiet show, the mics will be happier with more juice. Hope that helps.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2015, 06:37:30 AM »
-12 is a good baseline. A bit higher or lower won't kill the recording. If you search around here on TS you'll read about unity gain, where the recorder is neither amplifying nor attenuating the incoming signal (e.g. optimal setting on gain wheel). My 2¢ on this is that each deck varies a bit, and that it will be around 4-5. As long as the red 'over' lights aren't flashing on, you won't be saturating or brickwalling the recording. Too low can make noise problems when you normalize or amplify the recording later. You didn't mention if you're using a preamp or battery box to power your mics. Definitely don't use the built in plug in power (PIP) unless it's a really quiet show, the mics will be happier with more juice. Hope that helps.

All of this is good advice, except "unity gain" doesn't exist for recorders like this - there is no way to bypass the input stage so it is always amplifying the incoming signal.  4-5 may be the optimal level when using an external preamp, but it's not unity gain.  With a battery box or mics straight in, you may need to set the input higher or lower as needed - I sometimes ran into MIC IN for extra gain (but with PIP OFF) and the input level as high as 7 or 8 for quiet acoustic recordings.  That was with Church mics and a battery box; with an external preamp, I tend to set the level in the 4-5 range so the higher-quality preamp is doing most of the amplifying work.

DSatz's explanation on "unity gain":
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152494.0

Here's DigiGal's method for finding that "optimal" input level setting with external pres:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165688.msg2069471#msg2069471
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Offline nulldogmas

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2015, 07:56:18 AM »
I wouldn't say "don't run past -12dB" so much as "peaking at -12dB is sufficient if you're recording at 24 bits."

And I agree from experience that there's no optimal gain setting. I typically run at around 8 with CA-14 cards (with battery box) going into Line In, but for quieter shows will often go Mic In at around 2 or 3. I haven't noticed any quality difference, it's just whatever gets you the right input level.

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2015, 10:18:54 AM »
I think the -12dB is more for convenience, and being able to "set it and forget it".

I am not aware that anyone has ever posted a comparison or analysis to demonstrate the existance of a sweet spot, or even a problem spot, in regard to m10 levels, or gain knob setting (whether set to reduce levels or increase levels).  Is there a point where a high average RMS causes a degradation of capture quality with the m10?  I am not aware of one, but it is a good question.  I believe most folks mentioning a -12 dB peak level are doing so to leave headroom for surprises in the source material.

With the r09, there was most definitely distortion when the trim/gain setting was at or below 8, especially when average RMS levels were high (like from heavy bass). It was as if the recorder was internally brickwalling. That aside, the r09 sounds great.

A blind comp comparing the m10 when run at -12 peaks vs. say -2 peaks would be interesting.  But only with the right source material.

I personally think that peaking at -12 is a bit low. But that is situation and source material dependent. If I am recording a very quiet source, I probably want more gain from my front-end preamp, and want the peaks higher. That will also increase the average RMS levels, which tend to be low with those sources. If I am in a situation where I cannot ever monitor or adjust levels, then that would be another reason to run the levels lower. For a loud PA source, that also has a higher average RMS, a lower peak is fine.

Offline willndmb

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2015, 09:17:43 PM »
-12 is a good baseline. A bit higher or lower won't kill the recording. If you search around here on TS you'll read about unity gain, where the recorder is neither amplifying nor attenuating the incoming signal (e.g. optimal setting on gain wheel). My 2¢ on this is that each deck varies a bit, and that it will be around 4-5. As long as the red 'over' lights aren't flashing on, you won't be saturating or brickwalling the recording. Too low can make noise problems when you normalize or amplify the recording later. You didn't mention if you're using a preamp or battery box to power your mics. Definitely don't use the built in plug in power (PIP) unless it's a really quiet show, the mics will be happier with more juice. Hope that helps.

All of this is good advice, except "unity gain" doesn't exist for recorders like this - there is no way to bypass the input stage so it is always amplifying the incoming signal.  4-5 may be the optimal level when using an external preamp, but it's not unity gain.  With a battery box or mics straight in, you may need to set the input higher or lower as needed - I sometimes ran into MIC IN for extra gain (but with PIP OFF) and the input level as high as 7 or 8 for quiet acoustic recordings.  That was with Church mics and a battery box; with an external preamp, I tend to set the level in the 4-5 range so the higher-quality preamp is doing most of the amplifying work.

DSatz's explanation on "unity gain":
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152494.0

Here's DigiGal's method for finding that "optimal" input level setting with external pres:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=165688.msg2069471#msg2069471
i don't understand all the tech stuff but I can tell you that in multi test my m10 set at 4 takes the exact same signal it is fed
Fr example if I send it a -10db white noise file, the levels show at -10
Every number up/down changed the levels by approx 2/2.5db
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
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Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Online aaronji

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2015, 08:59:34 AM »
With the r09, there was most definitely distortion when the trim/gain setting was at or below 8, especially when average RMS levels were high (like from heavy bass). It was as if the recorder was internally brickwalling. That aside, the r09 sounds great.

There are "minimum safe gain" settings on the M10, too.  If you need to go below them to keep the levels from going over, you will get brickwalling.  guysonic estimated this level as 1 for the line input (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1722942#msg1722942) and DSatz estimated it at 1.5 - 2 for the mic input (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=154969.msg2014600#msg2014600).

Personally, I think -12 dB as a target is a bit too low, but whatever makes you comfortable and doesn't compromise the quality...   

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2015, 02:29:13 PM »
i don't understand all the tech stuff but I can tell you that in multi test my m10 set at 4 takes the exact same signal it is fed
Fr example if I send it a -10db white noise file, the levels show at -10
Every number up/down changed the levels by approx 2/2.5db

That is useful info. 

As an aside on the line-in I usually am in the 3-5 range on the wheel using my Tinybox at mid-level switch, depending on how loud the show is.  The CMC-25's fed plug-in power by the Tinybox seem to run relatively a little hotter than the MK4V's fed phantom by the Tinybox.  I don't really see much of anything that's really loud.  I'm usually starting at 4 for pretty much everything. 

A really, really quiet show like classical I may have to push it up towards 7 or 8, which can be problematic since when the crowd applauds that will clip at that level but it is what it is (usually they're at least smart enough to wait until a piece is over). 
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Offline earmonger

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2015, 02:55:59 PM »
I'd say -12db is too cautious on the M10. 

The green light on the Sony goes on at -12db, suggesting to me that it's Sony's suggested minimum, not max. The red light--uh-oh--goes on at 0. So if you can arrange for peaking at -6db I think you'd be fine.

Amplitude doubles every 6db. So if you're recording at -12 you're getting half the volume you would at -6. And if you're at -6 you're still well below the brickwalling  you get when it goes over 0db (which can be far less damaging if you have the PCM-M10 limiter on.)

My crude in-the-field method is to look at the lights and find where they're blinking green. That means I'm probably peaking somewhere between -12db and -6db, and that's probably cautious in itself.

Offline voltronic

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2015, 03:34:34 PM »
I don't really understand the position that -12dB is "too cautious".  In my mind that's the minimum amount of acceptable headroom for a live concert where you don't know for certain what the loudest peaks will be.  There's no reason I can think of to set it any higher unless you're able to be there ahead of time for a real sound check where the group your recording is giving you their absolute max volume to set levels from.

When I have that kind of ability to prep, I still set that max peak at -12dB.  They might get excited and play louder in front of an audience, so better safe than sorry.

It's not like we're recording to tape here.  Set the M10 to 24 bit and your nose floor will be plenty low enough, even if you only have around 20 real bits of resolution in reality. I have done this with quiet choral music that's only hitting -24 or so average during recording, and have been completely fine.  You can always amplify a in post, and that's way better than trying to repair clipping or hitting the limiter.
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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2015, 07:35:56 AM »
Why you would deliberately throw away so much dynamic range?

Why -12, anyway?  That number seems completely arbitrary; in any event, it is a huge safety margin for the musicians maybe getting a bit excited...

Offline voltronic

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2015, 08:04:08 AM »
I'm not throwing away that dynamic range, because the dynamic range of the recorder is so much greater than that the music I'm recording.  And I do acoustic / classical only, so I'd wager it's a greater dynamic range than most people here doing amplified concerts.  I actually measure this with a dynamic range tool, and the range is typically no more than 20dB for what I'm doing.  24 bit has a theoretical max of 144dB range, but a consumer device like the M10 may only really have 100-120dB.  That 12dB is well within what was going to be lost in the noisefloor anyway.  There are others here that can explain this far better.  (Paging DSatz, Jon S)

-12 may be arbitrary, yes.  I sometimes have used -16.  I had those figures passed on to me from other knowledgeable people either here or another forum, I can't remember which.

This practice just saved a recording for me last night (though using my 70D; not the M10).  I was recording part of a marching band competition, and set levels with a previous band so my peaks were -12.  In the next band, I was mostly there, but had several peaks up to -2.  This has happened more times than I can count, where if I had set my levels any higher I'd have clipping.

I definitely think there is a minimum level you need to be at as you linked earlier, but I still am not convinced why it's a good idea to be setting the level higher.
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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2015, 08:08:26 AM »
I'm not throwing away that dynamic range, because the dynamic range of the recorder is so much greater than that the music I'm recording.  And I do acoustic / classical only, so I'd wager it's a greater dynamic range than most people here doing amplified concerts.  I actually measure this with a dynamic range tool, and the range is typically no more than 20dB for what I'm doing.  24 bit has a theoretical max of 144dB range, but a consumer device like the M10 may only really have 100-120dB.  That 12dB is well within what was going to be lost in the noisefloor anyway.  There are others here that can explain this far better.  (Paging DSatz, Jon S)

-12 may be arbitrary, yes.  I sometimes have used -16.  I had those figures passed on to me from other knowledgeable people either here or another forum, I can't remember which.

This practice just saved a recording for me last night (though using my 70D; not the M10).  I was recording part of a marching band competition, and set levels with a previous band so my peaks were -12.  In the next band, I was mostly there, but had several peaks up to -2.  This has happened more times than I can count, where if I had set my levels any higher I'd have clipping.

I definitely think there is a minimum level you need to be at as you linked earlier, but I still am not convinced why it's a good idea to be setting the level higher.

No need to page DSatz...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174559.msg2159391#msg2159391

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167352.msg2098605#msg2098605

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170302.msg2114088#msg2114088

I have recorded a lot of jazz with plenty more than 20 dB of dynamic range, incidentally...

Offline willndmb

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2015, 08:43:05 AM »
I don't know where the -12 came from but I can tell you that I have been at a number of shows and seen peaks or even bursts of time where it averaged -12/10 and went up to -3/0
If I "know" that's it's not going to peak higher I def run hotter though, -6
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

Offline voltronic

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Re: M-10 levels......
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2015, 09:33:52 AM »
I'm not throwing away that dynamic range, because the dynamic range of the recorder is so much greater than that the music I'm recording.  And I do acoustic / classical only, so I'd wager it's a greater dynamic range than most people here doing amplified concerts.  I actually measure this with a dynamic range tool, and the range is typically no more than 20dB for what I'm doing.  24 bit has a theoretical max of 144dB range, but a consumer device like the M10 may only really have 100-120dB.  That 12dB is well within what was going to be lost in the noisefloor anyway.  There are others here that can explain this far better.  (Paging DSatz, Jon S)

-12 may be arbitrary, yes.  I sometimes have used -16.  I had those figures passed on to me from other knowledgeable people either here or another forum, I can't remember which.

This practice just saved a recording for me last night (though using my 70D; not the M10).  I was recording part of a marching band competition, and set levels with a previous band so my peaks were -12.  In the next band, I was mostly there, but had several peaks up to -2.  This has happened more times than I can count, where if I had set my levels any higher I'd have clipping.

I definitely think there is a minimum level you need to be at as you linked earlier, but I still am not convinced why it's a good idea to be setting the level higher.

No need to page DSatz...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=174559.msg2159391#msg2159391

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=167352.msg2098605#msg2098605

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170302.msg2114088#msg2114088

I have recorded a lot of jazz with plenty more than 20 dB of dynamic range, incidentally...

I think those posts you linked support both our positions, actually.  DSatz makes the position that -12 or whatever is useless when there is no risk of going higher.  That makes sense, but in my experience there usually is a risk of going higher, and it has happened to me many, many times like the example from last night I mentioned above.  When I set levels, I don't know for sure if the levels are going to peak higher, and in practice they often do.  I suppose if I really know for sure what the highest level will be then I can safely go higher, but I very rarely have the opportunity for that kind of controlled sound check, and I've been burned too many times.

EDIT: Also, if you read through the entire threads you linked, there seems to be quite a bit of support for recording with a bit more headroom because of the unpredictability of live music recording.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 09:42:15 AM by voltronic »
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