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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #315 on: October 15, 2014, 09:43:11 PM »
HVAC noise sucks.  I sometimes record some small ensemble chamber music with excellent musicians but the small room they perform in is acoustically horrible. The worst of it is that they are totally swamped in horrendously loud HVAC noise and the vents in the low drop ceiling directly overhead rattle intermittently like crazy.  I've suggested running it hard beforehand to cool down the room enough that It could be turned off just prior to the performance, but things are always rushed and this is Florida so it's often an uphill battle with the heat and humidity to begin with.  Ironically just before intermission, the room sometimes cools down enough that the HAVC turns off for a while, though never long enough for an entire piece.  Then during intermission the french doors along two walls to outdoor patios are opened and once closed again for the second part, it's back to running hard again the entire time.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #316 on: October 15, 2014, 11:54:14 PM »
I believe the choir recording sounds great. 

I wonder if you could fill us in on the composition of the choir? 

Mrs. Rocks conducts a teen choir.  Depending on who shows up, there might or might not be much bass to be had at some of their performances. 


Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #317 on: October 16, 2014, 06:19:16 AM »
It's about 20-25 singers depending on the performance, auditioned from the large main choir, but like I said an amateur group.  3 of us are professional musicians.  For this concert we had 5 sopranos, 5 altos, 4 tenors and 6 basses.  We changed formations a several times through the concert - I honestly can't remember exactly which we were in for the two pieces I posted.

I feel your wife's pain.  I am now an elementary choir director, but formerly I was with middle school where some of the boys would only have a range of about a fifth to work with for a little while.  Ahh, hormones.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #318 on: October 16, 2014, 10:23:19 AM »
It seems that by the time the young men's voices, what precious few of them there are, get through puberty, they suddenly graduate.  That being said, I was moved to hear one of my wife's former elementary choir male students more than hold his own as an adult soloist in an evening concert a few months ago amid several talented other soloists. 

I would like to try the CM3's as a main pair with omni flanks; however, I am completely confused about the proper spacing of the omnis.  I seem to recall that DPA recommends an 18" spread of the 4061s, and yet I read that others are spreading them further out. 


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #319 on: October 16, 2014, 11:29:54 AM »
Safe to can go wide with the omnis if you have a main pair in the center.

The sengpielaudio on-line microphone setup virtuallizer can help for an omni pair alone- http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-AB60-E.htm

Recent TS thread on omni spacing- (mostly outdoor recording)- http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=168749.msg2097953#msg2097953

Heading out the door, foff-line for about 5 days..

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #320 on: October 21, 2014, 10:49:12 AM »
Thanks.  Reading those links and http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=1625.msg2037866#msg2037866, my next question moves from how wide to how tall? 

I wouldn't have thought that it was possible to get a recording like that from mics positioned on the stage in that configuration.  I suppose when the sound source is guitar amps and a drum kit not more than 3 or 4 feet off the stage, the mics are really closest to the source source when positioned just off the stage at an equivalent height?

In recording a choir, do you sort of aim at the back row of the choir and that establishes the height where the mics should be placed? 

More specifically, if I wanted to attempt having two omnis spread out at 6' and two cards 20" apart front/back, should the mics be parallel with the stage or angled towards the sound source?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #321 on: October 21, 2014, 12:57:10 PM »
Well, that setup in the link you posted was for a very different situation- a small-format jazz trio playing in a small room rather than a choir in a hall.  In that situation I got good proximity to the sources as well as effectively eliminating reflections off the floor by positioning the microphones directly at floor level.

For a large distributed source like a choir, the typical setup is microphones spaced across the front of the choir.  The important factors determining placement will be finding a good direct to reverberant balance, getting a good representation of all singers throughout the entire the choir, achieving an appropriate blend where single voices aren't overly emphasized, and avoiding pickup of unwanted sound sources.  There isn't really the goal of achieving sharp imaging in a typical stereo sense, it's more the sense of massed voices, blending together with a good spatial sense and a large enveloping presentation.

With a typical choir setup of rows of singers in tiers, a number of spaced microphones hanging above and in front the choir usually achieves all that, with the appropriate pattern for a good direct/reverberant balance determined by the room and whatever else is being recorded.   You can lower the direct/reverberant ratio by moving away, moving up, changing to a less directional microphone pattern, or combinations of those things.. and do it keeping in mind how each change affects the other aspects.

For a choir I'd probably first consider using just a spaced pair.  Omnis an obvious choice, the CM3's if you needed a bit less reverberant room sound, or a spaced pair of cardioids if you needed even less.  A spaced pair, or three or four, achieves a somewhat a more similar path length to the singers who are farthest away rather than highlighting those closest to a near-spaced pair in the center.

It's when there are other sound sources or instruments in addition to the choir that you need to add other microphones or pairs, or adapt the setup which is focused on recording the choir to pickup everything appropriately.

The 6' spaced omnis plus center cardioid(s) setup is a main mic setup which sort of uses the center card sort of for direct-sound center focus, with the omnis providing a big, enveloping sense of space and ambience.  The center card may highlight singers in the center if the setup is close to the choir, which might be good or bad.  For something like chorus plus piano, if the array can be placed appropriately that directional center cardioid can provide some increased direct sound from the piano which you might want.   I use that 6' omnis with center cardioid arrangement because it works well for most things outdoors or inside in a good sounding room when recording from somewhere around the sweet-spot of the room.

But I'd suggest going with what you know to start and branch out from that.  For chorus, maybe a near-spaced pair of  the CM3s plus a somewhat wider spacing of omnis (I dunno, maybe omnis something like 8'-12' apart, with the CM3 pair in the middle).  That way you know you can use the CM3 pair alone and it will work.  You can listen to the omni-pair alone to see what how well that works, and the wide spacing of the omnis might work very well for a choir.  The combination of both pairs may be even better.  Conceptually that's sort of "nearspaced CM3s as primary pair plus wide-spaced omnis as secondary support."

If find you need more direct sound without sacrificing too much of the big openness of the spaced omnis, you can try the single center facing cardioid between the 4' to 6' spaced omnis.  That's more of a dedicated array, as you would't use the center cardioid alone in isolation without the omnis. Conceptually its sort of "spaced omnis as primary pair plus center cardioid as secondary support."

Since we were talking about low-frequency balance previously-  Microphone height also effects the bottom end response.  Farther from a surface the bottom end becomes less reinforced via boundary effect.  That's easily heard at amplified concerts where sitting on the ground is super boomy even compared to standing (ignoring the muffle effect of bodies blocking midrange and treble), and mics raised high are still less effected by and over-emphasized low end.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #322 on: October 21, 2014, 05:02:29 PM »
You could probably tell from the way I asked that I was confusing myself.  Thanks for getting me headed back in the right direction.

I'm still amazed at your jazz trio recording.  It's so clear. 

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #323 on: October 21, 2014, 05:46:48 PM »
Thanks.  That was sort of a very-quick trial run session actually.  No listening on setup, just guess and go like concert taping and they just ran through numbers one after the other like a live date.  They did end up making a CD from it that the principle artist of the trio sells at their gigs.  We did a similar session that I think was much better, both in sound and the overall performance, and they shot some video at the same time, but we sort of lost momentum on the project.  I still need to mix that one down for them.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #324 on: January 29, 2015, 10:29:34 PM »
I had the opportunity to record a HS wind ensemble the other night.  This was just a session of some quick takes in an empty hall to possibly use for a recorded audition.  The director already had 2 other mic arrays running in the center orchestra section of the hall when I got there (AKG C214s and Schoeps MK4/MK8 in M/S).  So I decided to give him a close-miked perspective for contrast using my CM3s, and that's what I'm posting here.  I unfortunately do not have access to the other recordings right now as it wasn't my rig.

CM3 > FP24 > M10.  Mics on stage directly behind conductor, 12ft up and angled slightly downward in NOS spacing.  No post processing other than a 3dB level adjustment on the second track to compensate for my over-cautious lowering of the preamp gain before recording it.

I'm not fully satisfied with this recording, and can't quite put my finger on why.  I expected a very dry sound, but something about the imaging seems off.  I have used this placement with good results for choirs in the past, but this was my first time trying it with an instrumental group.  I also had to set up in about 5 minutes, so I had no time to really walk around and listen for the best placement.  NOS usually sounds great with these mics on everything else I've done, but maybe it's a bit too wide for the very close perspective.  My DIY NOS rig is the only way I can easily do a slight downward angle right now until I pick up one of those neat Posi-Lok clutches.  Thoughts or suggestions?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tp003e4v940b6o1/01%20Take%2003.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5z3m6a7n9ecr26m/02%20Take%2002.mp3?dl=0
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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #325 on: January 30, 2015, 12:07:30 AM »
Have you tried ORTF and found you didn't like it? I'm still learning but I've been very happy with my mk5's in that config when I'm up close to a chamber quartet or something similar.
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
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Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
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Offline Tom McCreadie

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #326 on: January 30, 2015, 05:51:03 AM »
What angle was your NOS array subtending to the edges of the ensemble? .
I'm sensing a mild bunching towards the L and R speakers, with a slight emptiness or lack of solidity in the centre. Recall that the SRA for NOS is fairly narrow at ~ 81°, so perhaps you went too close? (although such imaging could result from how the band chose to line up...deep U-shaped arc vs. flat line etc).

Offline voltronic

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #327 on: January 30, 2015, 06:45:52 AM »
What angle was your NOS array subtending to the edges of the ensemble? .
I'm sensing a mild bunching towards the L and R speakers, with a slight emptiness or lack of solidity in the centre. Recall that the SRA for NOS is fairly narrow at ~ 81°, so perhaps you went too close? (although such imaging could result from how the band chose to line up...deep U-shaped arc vs. flat line etc).

The edges of the ensemble were well beyond the outer angle of the mics.

The lack of center pretty much describes what I'm hearing as well.  The band was generally arranged in large semicircular rows with the players evenly spaced. 

Regarding SRA, the CM3 is really a subcard pattern so you have to redo the SRA calculations with that in mind.  In this case, a NOS spacing yields an SRA of 104°.  I had thought that my high elevation would create enough distance from the ensemble for it to image properly, but clearly it didn't.  DIN would give me 145.7° SRA which may have been a better choice in this situation.  ORTF would give almost the same thing - 146.4°.  Once I have the means to angle my regular adjustable mic bar downwards, I might try one of those in the future.  But as I said, I was pressed for time and my fixed NOS mount was the only option at the time if I wanted the high perspective.  NOS has up to this point been my "default" spacing with this mic, as DIN is when I use regular cardiods - it tends to give me a nice image most of the time.  But in this case, this was my first time recording from this close to an ensemble.
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Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #328 on: January 30, 2015, 10:04:19 AM »
I didn't realize the CM3s were subcards. I was figuring standard cards.

  Ah, there it is (from the website): "Polar pattern: Cardioid (slightly wide/semi wide cardioid)"

As has been pointed out to me a few times, ORTF requires small diaphragm condenser cardioids or it's not technically ORTF  :P

I'm usually in fairly close quarters so used ORTF a lot. I like the way it can add some warmth and openness which I attribute to the wide angle while still getting a good image by being so narrow. I ran DIN last week and initial sampling sounds pretty good but is more in your face compared to ORTF in my opinion. I'll have to give NOS a shot.  I also used to do most of my mixing and listening on headphones but recently added monitors so my view on stereo imaging is changing.

But then again I've also found I liked using ORTF outdoors at a rock festival recording at the soundboard. I may just have an obsession with it for some reason. DIN feels too narrow and in your face to me.

The group is organizing a Mozart Festival on 3/1 around town for the second year. Should be a good opportunity to try a few different setups.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 10:13:19 AM by Ultfris101 »
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

Offline Ultfris101

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Re: Team classical recording
« Reply #329 on: January 30, 2015, 10:37:38 AM »
I'm expanding my playback/mixing system with some monitors and a sub (JBL LSR305 and LSR310s to be specific). Does anybody have a short list of readily available classical recordings you would consider references to help dial in a mixing station?

I think what I'm looking for is examples which at least somewhat objectively have good stereo imaging, tonal range, etc.

I can pick some and listen and decide what I like and don't but I'd like to get an idea what others with more experience in this area like so I can compare to what I'm hearing.

thanks for any thoughts you have.
Mics: Schoeps MK5,MK41 CMC6,KCY,KC5 | AKG ck63,ck1 C460B,C480B | DPA 4061 | Naiant X-R card,hyper | CA-14o,c
Pres: Sound Devices USBPre2 | Naiant Tinybox | Church Audio 9200, UBB
Recs: Zoom F8 | Edirol R-44 | Sony PCM-M10 | Tascam DR-2d
Video: Sony CX550(2), CX580, HX9

LMA: http://archive.org/bookmarks/ultfris101

 

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